Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory. However, judgment has already taken place in the sense that the souls are assured of salvation.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

Coke Bear said:

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.

---

Please cite an official Magisterial document that states that "Catholics think they have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit."

It is actually quite the contrary. Two documents in Vatican II Lumen Gentium and Unitatis Redintegratio affirm that the Holy Spirit is at work in other Christian communities as well.

The Holy Spirit is present, active, and works in the hearts of people everywhere.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

They think like lemmings and assume that Prots follow Luther as lemmings as well. We don't.

---

Where is your proof for this? It actuality, protestants actually follow Luther with respect to the fact that everyman can believe there own interpretation of the Bible. Of course, Luther believed that only HIS view was the correct one.

PS. If you can't find a document concerning your comment about the Holy Spirit, can we expect a retraction?

---

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, the Catholic Catechism that condemns those outside the church. So my understanding is that your church preaches one thing but then caveats it to try to make it make sense to the world. The Catholic Church teaches that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" which is a fundamental teaching that affirms the necessity of salvation through the Church. This teaching is rooted in the belief that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the (RC) Church, which is his Body. The (RC) Church is seen as the means through which Christ distributes His grace via the sacraments.

Tell me if I get this wrong - popes have affirmed this teaching and have other priests for YEARS. But not too long ago, this wasn't popular on the world stage, so a pope somewhere decided that he'd nuance it so that Muslims and even some lowly protestants could be saved. And of course recently, practicing gays are welcomed and not condemned exactly. Sound about right?

So my experience with Catholics is that they all fear being outside the RC church because they will lose their salvation. They then extend that belief to devout protestants who live more morally than most Catholics. That of course is irrelevant to them because the RC church prioritizes church obedience over faith in Christ and faith in scripture.

Honestly tho, I don't have anything against devout Catholics that are actually seeking to live a holy life, out of love for Christ. Sure I believe that they are off base on several things, but their love for Christ comes through as does their dedication to right living. I respect them and consider them brothers in Christ and I expect to see them in heaven glorifying God along with me and fellow believers. And good news for us all, God can still save despite some bad theology.

I will say that I don't respect what appears to be a lack of consistency on this issue from the church, to me it just shows that they don't actually know, they're changing it as they go based on whatever the pope feels. I'd have more respect if they stayed true to their original interpretation rather than just change it up to make everyone feel better ... or even better, preached the truth and used scripture to show why they were wrong in the past to preach that those "faithful outside the church" are anathema to Christ.

Also, while I don't have anything against the devout Catholics, I do fault the church and its leadership for what I believe are many false teachings that may jeopardize salvation for many. Most of those have been brought up here and argued without my participation. It saddens me from a macro perspective, and that is why I'll speak up to a point, but not so far as to hate on my Catholic brothers. And I get that RCs won't agree about the false teaching, that is their prerogative.

Last, since I don't want anyone wondering on where I stand in faith vs works - it is faith alone that Saves.

" One of our Priests is from Nigeria .

He is a living reminder of the ongoing slaughters of Catholics in Africa."

I hear you.

South Main Baptist Church here in Houston has a small set of plaques to remember Baptist missionaries from their church who disappeared in PRC custody.

Families denied even a body to bury.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You have been very dishonest in this thread.

I had to block BTD because his pride allowed nothing else, I hope you are not following him.

---

I Blocked him / her months ago for the personal attacks and lack of reasoned discussion. Way too emotional and lacking in any substance. Every answer was John 3:16. Boring

Point out a dishonesty? Be clear if it's just you not understanding. Ive stated nothing dishonest at all. Same as always.

---

With all due respect, this post describes you, freedom. As evidenced by all of the posts responding to you on this thread, you have a tendency to rub people the wrong way with your argumentative style. What typically happens is when you are confronted with the lack of logic or support for your theological positions, you posts devolve into inane rants and personal attacks against some protestant bogeyman. You've done it to me above, as with all of the other posters.

You have great difficulty defending your illogical and unsupported positions, and it makes you angry.

---

With all due respect you just described yourself. You equate your disagreement wirh my defense as me not posting a defense. You are bad at this. Most times you dont even debate so i move along perfectly content. You just say nah and project. Like this here very post you made. Its boring and nobody learns anything.

3 people pointed you to many verses etc to which you hardly responded as a perfect example. Shrug

And when youre aligned with the woman or dude i blocked well….

Sam Lowry said:

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory. However, judgment has already taken place in the sense that the souls are assured of salvation.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory.

This is not an accurate statement of the Catholic position on purgatory:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/purgatory-is-not-for-forgiving-of-sins

It is of course also not supported by scripture.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

We disagree. There is no logic in the invention of a place neither mentioned or referenced in scripture, especially when scripture is so clear on the existence of other venues like Hell/Sheol and Heaven/Paradise.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You have been very dishonest in this thread.

I had to block BTD because his pride allowed nothing else, I hope you are not following him.

---

I Blocked him / her months ago for the personal attacks and lack of reasoned discussion. Way too emotional and lacking in any substance. Every answer was John 3:16. Boring

Point out a dishonesty? Be clear if it's just you not understanding. Ive stated nothing dishonest at all. Same as always.

---

With all due respect, this post describes you, freedom. As evidenced by all of the posts responding to you on this thread, you have a tendency to rub people the wrong way with your argumentative style. What typically happens is when you are confronted with the lack of logic or support for your theological positions, you posts devolve into inane rants and personal attacks against some protestant bogeyman. You've done it to me above, as with all of the other posters.

You have great difficulty defending your illogical and unsupported positions, and it makes you angry.

---

With all due respect you just described yourself. You equate your disagreement wirh my defense as me not posting a defense. You are bad at this. Most times you dont even debate so i move along perfectly content. You just say nah and project. Like this here very post you made. Its boring and nobody learns anything.

3 people pointed you to many verses etc to which you hardly responded as a perfect example. Shrug

And when youre aligned with the woman or dude i blocked well….

---

Of course your Catholic brethren have come to defend you. That would be expected. But the problem is, the facts are not what you have described. None of the verses you or your fellow Catholics have cited logically lead to the conclusion of a venue called purgatory.

As for your argumentative style, this thread is a microcosm of how you post. If someone refutes your position, as I did with your position on where Jesus went after his crucifixion, you ignore it because you cannot refute it. It is why my response to your post above has failed to receive a response.

You are unable.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory. However, judgment has already taken place in the sense that the souls are assured of salvation.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory.

This is not an accurate statement of the Catholic position on purgatory:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/purgatory-is-not-for-forgiving-of-sins

It is of course also not supported by scripture.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

We disagree. There is no logic in the invention of a place neither mentioned or referenced in scripture, especially when scripture is so clear on the existence of other venues like Hell/Sheol and Heaven/Paradise.

---

From your link: "There is forgiveness for certain lesser faults (venial sins) in purgatory."

So which of these places mentioned in Scripture is a place of suffering and purification leading to deliverance from sin? Would it be hell/sheol, or heaven/paradise?

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You have been very dishonest in this thread.

I had to block BTD because his pride allowed nothing else, I hope you are not following him.

---

I Blocked him / her months ago for the personal attacks and lack of reasoned discussion. Way too emotional and lacking in any substance. Every answer was John 3:16. Boring

Point out a dishonesty? Be clear if it's just you not understanding. Ive stated nothing dishonest at all. Same as always.

---

With all due respect, this post describes you, freedom. As evidenced by all of the posts responding to you on this thread, you have a tendency to rub people the wrong way with your argumentative style. What typically happens is when you are confronted with the lack of logic or support for your theological positions, you posts devolve into inane rants and personal attacks against some protestant bogeyman. You've done it to me above, as with all of the other posters.

You have great difficulty defending your illogical and unsupported positions, and it makes you angry.

---

With all due respect you just described yourself. You equate your disagreement wirh my defense as me not posting a defense. You are bad at this. Most times you dont even debate so i move along perfectly content. You just say nah and project. Like this here very post you made. Its boring and nobody learns anything.

3 people pointed you to many verses etc to which you hardly responded as a perfect example. Shrug

And when youre aligned with the woman or dude i blocked well….

---

This thread you started asked the question whether Martin Luther believed in purgatory, to which you were provided the clear fact that he came to fully reject it - but you then commented "so, the answer is yes".

This is you completely in a nutshell. There's nothing else that needs to be said. This is the thinking of a delusional person living in their own reality, where closing your eyes can make inconvenient facts simply disappear. You're really afraid of them, and in response you've developed some destructive defense mechanisms in order to cope.

The illusion that anyone can have a rational discussion with you after that, is exactly that - an illusion. Anyone who is "aligned" with me on that fact is simply being an honest, rational, intelligent person.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory. However, judgment has already taken place in the sense that the souls are assured of salvation.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

---

Catholics interpret verses about being "tested by fire" as proof of purgatory, and its a concept developed centuries after the East-West Schism through magisterial teaching. Its not found in the original church whatsoever.

Neither Protestants nor Orthodox buy into purgatory. Protestants claim sola scriptura and Orthodox claim scripture and tradition. Catholics add in magisterial teaching for proof which is why purgatory is baseless.

The fire represents God's energy: for the righteous, its light and warmth, for the unrepentant, it feels like burning. Its God showing you who you really are.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory. However, judgment has already taken place in the sense that the souls are assured of salvation.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory.

This is not an accurate statement of the Catholic position on purgatory:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/purgatory-is-not-for-forgiving-of-sins

It is of course also not supported by scripture.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

We disagree. There is no logic in the invention of a place neither mentioned or referenced in scripture, especially when scripture is so clear on the existence of other venues like Hell/Sheol and Heaven/Paradise.

---

From your link: "There is forgiveness for certain lesser faults (venial sins) in purgatory."

So which of these places mentioned in Scripture is a place of suffering and purification leading to deliverance from sin? Would it be hell/sheol, or heaven/paradise?

---

From Jesus saying "blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age or in the age to come"-

and extrapolating from that: "therefore, there is forgiveness of venial sins in a place called purgatory after death"...

... is about as big a logical leap as there can be. You're assuming the "ages" (Greek: aioini) being referred to are the time periods of pre-death and post-death for each individual person. That is individualizing the concept of "age" there, which is taking too much liberty. Jesus could be merely speaking of the current Messianic age he was in at that moment, and the Church age after the destruction of the Temple (the age that we're in today). Secondly, as Mothra already pointed out, it could just be an expression that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is a sin that is NEVER forgiven.

To assume it means forgiveness of "venial sin" is possible after death, you need support from clear, explicit parts of Scripture, rather than from extrapolating something made up, stemming from a vague part of Scripture. It'd be like a dad telling his scared child "there's no monsters in your room, or under your bed" and the child concluding: "so then, you're saying that monsters DO exist! You're just telling me they're not in my room or under my bed. But you didn't say anything about my closet - so that's where they must be!"

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

God gave us his word where he TELLS us what he's going to do. He didn't leave it for us to guess and be scared and uncertain. He wants those of us who believe and trust in Jesus to have assurance and peace.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." - Jesus, in John 5:24

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds (stripes) we are healed" - Isaiah 53

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7


Scripture clearly teaches that the punishment for our sins was ALL on Jesus. Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin. For the believer, there is no sin left to be paid for by our own suffering. Believers will not be judged for their sin. Jesus already took that suffering FOR US. To say otherwise would be to diminish Jesus' finished, completed work on the cross, and it cheapens his shed blood. This is what the concept of purgatory does. Believers in purgatory are NOT putting their trust in the finished work of Jesus. This puts their salvation in total jeopardy. To "LOL" at this as you do, to call it a "waste of time", tells us all we need to know.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory. However, judgment has already taken place in the sense that the souls are assured of salvation.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory.

This is not an accurate statement of the Catholic position on purgatory:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/purgatory-is-not-for-forgiving-of-sins

It is of course also not supported by scripture.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

We disagree. There is no logic in the invention of a place neither mentioned or referenced in scripture, especially when scripture is so clear on the existence of other venues like Hell/Sheol and Heaven/Paradise.

---

From your link: "There is forgiveness for certain lesser faults (venial sins) in purgatory."

So which of these places mentioned in Scripture is a place of suffering and purification leading to deliverance from sin? Would it be hell/sheol, or heaven/paradise?

---

From Jesus saying "blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age or in the age to come"-

and extrapolating from that: "therefore, there is forgiveness of venial sins in a place called purgatory after death"...

... is about as big a logical leap as there can be. You're assuming the "ages" (Greek: aioini) being referred to are the time periods of pre-death and post-death for each individual person. That is individualizing the concept of "age" there, which is taking too much liberty. Jesus could be merely speaking of the current Messianic age he was in at that moment, and the Church age after the destruction of the Temple (the age that we're in today). Secondly, as Mothra already pointed out, it could just be an expression that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is a sin that is NEVER forgiven.

To assume it means forgiveness of "venial sin" is possible after death, you need support from clear, explicit parts of Scripture, rather than from extrapolating something made up, stemming from a vague part of Scripture. It'd be like a dad telling his scared child "there's no monsters in your room, or under your bed" and the child concluding: "so then, you're saying that monsters DO exist! You're just telling me they're not in my room or under my bed. But you didn't say anything about my closet - so that's where they must be!"

---

That is a possible reading of "aion," but not likely considering Jesus' words in Mark 3:28-29. There are many other passages where it refers to eternity. And whether you accept 2 Maccabees as part of the biblical canon or not, Jesus would have known that forgiveness after death was a familiar concept to his Jewish audience, especially the Pharisees. Thus they would take it as more than just rhetorical emphasis.

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm just responding to the claim that Scripture lacks even a hint or suggestion of the idea.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory. However, judgment has already taken place in the sense that the souls are assured of salvation.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory.

This is not an accurate statement of the Catholic position on purgatory:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/purgatory-is-not-for-forgiving-of-sins

It is of course also not supported by scripture.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

We disagree. There is no logic in the invention of a place neither mentioned or referenced in scripture, especially when scripture is so clear on the existence of other venues like Hell/Sheol and Heaven/Paradise.

---

From your link: "There is forgiveness for certain lesser faults (venial sins) in purgatory."

So which of these places mentioned in Scripture is a place of suffering and purification leading to deliverance from sin? Would it be hell/sheol, or heaven/paradise?

---

There is no separate venue mentioned in scripture wherein believers are purified. Purification, according to Jesus, involves a radical transformation of mind, heart, and spirit during the believer's time on Earth through His work on the cross, our faith, the Word of God, and the work of the Holy Spirit. John 3:3; 5; 1 John 1:7; 2 Cor. 7:1. In other words, it is a process by which believers become clean or pure in a physical, moral, or spiritual sense throughout their lives on Earth.

As for the place of suffering, the only venue mentioned in scripture where suffering occurs - other than on Earth - is Hell, which is described as a place of torment, fire, worm, and death. Christ himself was very clear that those who put their faith in him will not experience it.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You have been very dishonest in this thread.

I had to block BTD because his pride allowed nothing else, I hope you are not following him.

---

I Blocked him / her months ago for the personal attacks and lack of reasoned discussion. Way too emotional and lacking in any substance. Every answer was John 3:16. Boring

Point out a dishonesty? Be clear if it's just you not understanding. Ive stated nothing dishonest at all. Same as always.

---

With all due respect, this post describes you, freedom. As evidenced by all of the posts responding to you on this thread, you have a tendency to rub people the wrong way with your argumentative style. What typically happens is when you are confronted with the lack of logic or support for your theological positions, you posts devolve into inane rants and personal attacks against some protestant bogeyman. You've done it to me above, as with all of the other posters.

You have great difficulty defending your illogical and unsupported positions, and it makes you angry.

---

With all due respect you just described yourself. You equate your disagreement wirh my defense as me not posting a defense. You are bad at this. Most times you dont even debate so i move along perfectly content. You just say nah and project. Like this here very post you made. Its boring and nobody learns anything.

3 people pointed you to many verses etc to which you hardly responded as a perfect example. Shrug

And when youre aligned with the woman or dude i blocked well….

---

This thread you started asked the question whether Martin Luther believed in purgatory, to which you were provided the clear fact that he came to fully reject it - but you then commented "so, the answer is yes".

This is you completely in a nutshell. There's nothing else that needs to be said. This is the thinking of a delusional person living in their own reality, where closing your eyes can make inconvenient facts simply disappear. You're really afraid of them, and in response you've developed some destructive defense mechanisms in order to cope.

The illusion that anyone can have a rational discussion with you after that, is exactly that - an illusion. Anyone who is "aligned" with me on that fact is simply being an honest, rational, intelligent person.

---

KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

Have to disagree with this, especially if the belief could lead toward a path toward eternal damnation.

For all of our political discussions, there literally is no more important topic to debate, given the consequences.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory. However, judgment has already taken place in the sense that the souls are assured of salvation.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory.

This is not an accurate statement of the Catholic position on purgatory:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/purgatory-is-not-for-forgiving-of-sins

It is of course also not supported by scripture.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

We disagree. There is no logic in the invention of a place neither mentioned or referenced in scripture, especially when scripture is so clear on the existence of other venues like Hell/Sheol and Heaven/Paradise.

---

From your link: "There is forgiveness for certain lesser faults (venial sins) in purgatory."

So which of these places mentioned in Scripture is a place of suffering and purification leading to deliverance from sin? Would it be hell/sheol, or heaven/paradise?

---

From Jesus saying "blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age or in the age to come"-

and extrapolating from that: "therefore, there is forgiveness of venial sins in a place called purgatory after death"...

... is about as big a logical leap as there can be. You're assuming the "ages" (Greek: aioini) being referred to are the time periods of pre-death and post-death for each individual person. That is individualizing the concept of "age" there, which is taking too much liberty. Jesus could be merely speaking of the current Messianic age he was in at that moment, and the Church age after the destruction of the Temple (the age that we're in today). Secondly, as Mothra already pointed out, it could just be an expression that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is a sin that is NEVER forgiven.

To assume it means forgiveness of "venial sin" is possible after death, you need support from clear, explicit parts of Scripture, rather than from extrapolating something made up, stemming from a vague part of Scripture. It'd be like a dad telling his scared child "there's no monsters in your room, or under your bed" and the child concluding: "so then, you're saying that monsters DO exist! You're just telling me they're not in my room or under my bed. But you didn't say anything about my closet - so that's where they must be!"

---

That is a possible reading of "aion," but not likely considering Jesus' words in Mark 3:28-29. There are many other passages where it refers to eternity. And whether you accept 2 Maccabees as part of the biblical canon or not, Jesus would have known that forgiveness after death was a familiar concept to his Jewish audience, especially the Pharisees. Thus they would take it as more than just rhetorical emphasis.

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm just responding to the claim that Scripture lacks even a hint or suggestion of the idea.

---

The fact that "aioni" refers to eternity shows that the expression "in this age and the age to come" used in Matthew 12 just means that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin that can never be forgiven. It does not follow, then, that this means that in the "age to come" there are certain kinds of NON-eternal sins accumulated by the believer (that weren't paid for by Jesus' blood) that CAN be forgiven. That's extrapolating something out from that verse that just isn't there.

Scripture doesn't "hint" or "suggest" the idea of believers accumulating "venial sins" that they are responsible for after death, because doing so would directly contradict Scripture when it says that Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin (1 John 1:7).

Regarding the story in Maccabees 2: the dead men being prayed for were guilty of idolatry, which according to Roman Catholicism is a mortal sin - which means they are in Hell and can't be forgiven. So this is an internally inconsistent argument. It also should be noted that while Jesus knew that certain concepts were familiar to the Jews at that time, he also knew that their concepts were not always correct and in line with Scripture, as he noted when he criticized the Sadducees about their unbelief in the resurrection (Matthew 22:29).

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory. However, judgment has already taken place in the sense that the souls are assured of salvation.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

---

Venial sins are forgiven in purgatory.

This is not an accurate statement of the Catholic position on purgatory:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/purgatory-is-not-for-forgiving-of-sins

It is of course also not supported by scripture.

The logic of Coke Bear's verses is straightforward. There's no reason to make atonement or seek deliverance for the souls in heaven or hell. Likewise, there are no rewards in hell and no testing by fire in heaven. All these verses imply the existence of some other venue. One may doubt the existence of purgatory, but no one can deny that it is at least suggested in Scripture.

We disagree. There is no logic in the invention of a place neither mentioned or referenced in scripture, especially when scripture is so clear on the existence of other venues like Hell/Sheol and Heaven/Paradise.

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From your link: "There is forgiveness for certain lesser faults (venial sins) in purgatory."

So which of these places mentioned in Scripture is a place of suffering and purification leading to deliverance from sin? Would it be hell/sheol, or heaven/paradise?

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From Jesus saying "blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age or in the age to come"-

and extrapolating from that: "therefore, there is forgiveness of venial sins in a place called purgatory after death"...

... is about as big a logical leap as there can be. You're assuming the "ages" (Greek: aioini) being referred to are the time periods of pre-death and post-death for each individual person. That is individualizing the concept of "age" there, which is taking too much liberty. Jesus could be merely speaking of the current Messianic age he was in at that moment, and the Church age after the destruction of the Temple (the age that we're in today). Secondly, as Mothra already pointed out, it could just be an expression that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is a sin that is NEVER forgiven.

To assume it means forgiveness of "venial sin" is possible after death, you need support from clear, explicit parts of Scripture, rather than from extrapolating something made up, stemming from a vague part of Scripture. It'd be like a dad telling his scared child "there's no monsters in your room, or under your bed" and the child concluding: "so then, you're saying that monsters DO exist! You're just telling me they're not in my room or under my bed. But you didn't say anything about my closet - so that's where they must be!"

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That is a possible reading of "aion," but not likely considering Jesus' words in Mark 3:28-29. There are many other passages where it refers to eternity. And whether you accept 2 Maccabees as part of the biblical canon or not, Jesus would have known that forgiveness after death was a familiar concept to his Jewish audience, especially the Pharisees. Thus they would take it as more than just rhetorical emphasis.

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm just responding to the claim that Scripture lacks even a hint or suggestion of the idea.

---

Mark 3:28-29: "Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

Hard to read the plain language of those verses and conclude that Jesus meant such forgiveness occurs after one's time on Earth. Certainly, Jesus does not say that in these verses. It is logical that if people blasphemed the Holy Spirit, there would not be forgiveness for doing so following one's time on Earth. Why? Because it is through the Holy Spirit that all have their last chance to repent. It is through the Holy Spirit that the apostles spoke and the words they said were the words of salvation. To reject the words of the apostles is to reject the Holy Spirit and have no hope of forgiveness. That appears to be what Christ is saying here.

Busty is correct that there is no canonical text that suggests that forgiveness can occur after death.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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KaiBear said:

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LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

God gave us his word where he TELLS us what he's going to do. He didn't leave it for us to guess and be scared and uncertain. He wants those of us who believe and trust in Jesus to have assurance and peace.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." - Jesus, in John 5:24

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds (stripes) we are healed" - Isaiah 53

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7


Scripture clearly teaches that the punishment for our sins was ALL on Jesus. Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin. For the believer, there is no sin left to be paid for by our own suffering. Believers will not be judged for their sin. Jesus already took that suffering FOR US. To say otherwise would be to diminish Jesus' finished, completed work on the cross, and it cheapens his shed blood. This is what the concept of purgatory does. Believers in purgatory are NOT putting their trust in the finished work of Jesus. This puts their salvation in total jeopardy. To "LOL" at this as you do, to call it a "waste of time", tells us all we need to know.

---

You have zero knowledge of exactly what puts Catholics in 'total jeopardy'

Only God knows.

And He alone will decide our fate.


Meanwhile continue to have fun appointing yourself as the omnipotent judge in this little message board.

Suspect it's the cheapest therapy available to you.

KaiBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

God gave us his word where he TELLS us what he's going to do. He didn't leave it for us to guess and be scared and uncertain. He wants those of us who believe and trust in Jesus to have assurance and peace.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." - Jesus, in John 5:24

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds (stripes) we are healed" - Isaiah 53

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7


Scripture clearly teaches that the punishment for our sins was ALL on Jesus. Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin. For the believer, there is no sin left to be paid for by our own suffering. Believers will not be judged for their sin. Jesus already took that suffering FOR US. To say otherwise would be to diminish Jesus' finished, completed work on the cross, and it cheapens his shed blood. This is what the concept of purgatory does. Believers in purgatory are NOT putting their trust in the finished work of Jesus. This puts their salvation in total jeopardy. To "LOL" at this as you do, to call it a "waste of time", tells us all we need to know.

---

You have zero knowledge of exactly what puts Catholics in 'total jeopardy'

Only God knows.

And He alone will decide our fate.


Meanwhile continue to have fun appointing yourself as the omnipotent judge in this little message board.

Suspect it's the cheapest therapy available to you.

---

Right - only God knows.

Therefore it's okay to just go directly against his word.

Makes a whole lot of sense.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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KaiBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

God gave us his word where he TELLS us what he's going to do. He didn't leave it for us to guess and be scared and uncertain. He wants those of us who believe and trust in Jesus to have assurance and peace.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." - Jesus, in John 5:24

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds (stripes) we are healed" - Isaiah 53

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7


Scripture clearly teaches that the punishment for our sins was ALL on Jesus. Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin. For the believer, there is no sin left to be paid for by our own suffering. Believers will not be judged for their sin. Jesus already took that suffering FOR US. To say otherwise would be to diminish Jesus' finished, completed work on the cross, and it cheapens his shed blood. This is what the concept of purgatory does. Believers in purgatory are NOT putting their trust in the finished work of Jesus. This puts their salvation in total jeopardy. To "LOL" at this as you do, to call it a "waste of time", tells us all we need to know.

---

You have zero knowledge of exactly what puts Catholics in 'total jeopardy'

Only God knows.

And He alone will decide our fate.


Meanwhile continue to have fun appointing yourself as the omnipotent judge in this little message board.

Suspect it's the cheapest therapy available to you.

---

Right - only God knows.

Therefore it's okay to just go directly against his word.

Makes a whole lot of sense.

---

You don't get to decide who is directly against Gods Word.

Years of trying and you still don't.

Find some other way to bolster your ego.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20103&version=NIV

1 Praise the Lord, my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
2 Praise the Lord, my soul,
and forget not all his benefits
3 who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
4 who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
5 who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.
6 The Lord works righteousness
and justice for all the oppressed.
7 He made known his ways to Moses,
his deeds to the people of Israel:
8 The Lord is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;



12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.



13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
15 The life of mortals is like grass,
they flourish like a flower of the field;
16 the wind blows over it and it is gone,
and its place remembers it no more.
17 But from everlasting to everlasting
the Lord's love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children's children
18 with those who keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.
19 The Lord has established his throne in heaven,
and his kingdom rules over all.
20 Praise the Lord, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
21 Praise the Lord, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.
22 Praise the Lord, all his works
everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the Lord, my soul.

KaiBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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KaiBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

God gave us his word where he TELLS us what he's going to do. He didn't leave it for us to guess and be scared and uncertain. He wants those of us who believe and trust in Jesus to have assurance and peace.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." - Jesus, in John 5:24

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds (stripes) we are healed" - Isaiah 53

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7


Scripture clearly teaches that the punishment for our sins was ALL on Jesus. Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin. For the believer, there is no sin left to be paid for by our own suffering. Believers will not be judged for their sin. Jesus already took that suffering FOR US. To say otherwise would be to diminish Jesus' finished, completed work on the cross, and it cheapens his shed blood. This is what the concept of purgatory does. Believers in purgatory are NOT putting their trust in the finished work of Jesus. This puts their salvation in total jeopardy. To "LOL" at this as you do, to call it a "waste of time", tells us all we need to know.

---

You have zero knowledge of exactly what puts Catholics in 'total jeopardy'

Only God knows.

And He alone will decide our fate.


Meanwhile continue to have fun appointing yourself as the omnipotent judge in this little message board.

Suspect it's the cheapest therapy available to you.

---

Right - only God knows.

Therefore it's okay to just go directly against his word.

Makes a whole lot of sense.

---

You don't get to decide who is directly against Gods Word.

Years of trying and you still don't.

Find some other way to bolster your ego.

---

Again - do you HONESTLY believe that saying Mary is the way to salvation, and bowing and praying to Mary's image amongst all the other things discussed is NOT going against God's word??

If so, you're not a Christian. You'd do much better re-examining your beliefs than spending all your energy for your defense mechanisms. They're not working.

Of the Ten Commandments, 2 explicitly condemn worshipping false gods & idolatry. See Exodus 20:3-4.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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KaiBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

God gave us his word where he TELLS us what he's going to do. He didn't leave it for us to guess and be scared and uncertain. He wants those of us who believe and trust in Jesus to have assurance and peace.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." - Jesus, in John 5:24

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds (stripes) we are healed" - Isaiah 53

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7


Scripture clearly teaches that the punishment for our sins was ALL on Jesus. Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin. For the believer, there is no sin left to be paid for by our own suffering. Believers will not be judged for their sin. Jesus already took that suffering FOR US. To say otherwise would be to diminish Jesus' finished, completed work on the cross, and it cheapens his shed blood. This is what the concept of purgatory does. Believers in purgatory are NOT putting their trust in the finished work of Jesus. This puts their salvation in total jeopardy. To "LOL" at this as you do, to call it a "waste of time", tells us all we need to know.

---

You have zero knowledge of exactly what puts Catholics in 'total jeopardy'

Only God knows.

And He alone will decide our fate.


Meanwhile continue to have fun appointing yourself as the omnipotent judge in this little message board.

Suspect it's the cheapest therapy available to you.

---

Right - only God knows.

Therefore it's okay to just go directly against his word.

Makes a whole lot of sense.

---

You don't get to decide who is directly against Gods Word.

Years of trying and you still don't.

Find some other way to bolster your ego.

---

Again - do you HONESTLY believe that saying Mary is the way to salvation, and bowing and praying to Mary's image amongst all the other things discussed is NOT going against God's word??

If so, you're not a Christian. You'd do much better re-examining your beliefs than spending all your energy for your defense mechanisms. They're not working.

---

You do not posses the right to determine who is, or who is not a Christian.

That you would even type such self serving tripe is really bizarre.

And you wonder out loud why folks put you on 'ignore'.

LOL

Mothra said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

Have to disagree with this, especially if the belief could lead toward a path toward eternal damnation.

For all of our political discussions, there literally is no more important topic to debate, given the consequences.

---

OK, no one asked me but I feel moved to talk about the Elephant.

Full disclosure, I was raised Southern Baptist, spent some time as a United Methodist and once scared my dad by suggesting while in High School that the RC had some good ideas and I might become a priest, then after exploring Buddhism, the Sikh faith and - not kidding - Jediism, I found my way back to the Southern Baptists.

My point is that while sometimes odd and often stubborn, I have tried to be open-minded about Faith and the personal relationship we each have with God. Too often, however, "discussions" on certain topics devolve into arguments and create resentment and a refusal to budge on even the smallest point, and there is no wisdom gained.

I thought about pointing out some of the many errors in play in this thread, but given the atmosphere I don't see that as helpful. So I would just ask each of us, whatever our beliefs, upbringing, and preferences, take a step back and - even if only as an intellectual exercise and to work on personal honesty, seriously consider the other person's take and why they believe it.

Consider that every group of believers numbering in the millions or more would seem to have something valid that should at least be respected.

Or, we can just go on throwing crap at each other and convince the atheists that there is nothing here but noise and repeated stupidity.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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You have been very dishonest in this thread.

I had to block BTD because his pride allowed nothing else, I hope you are not following him.

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I Blocked him / her months ago for the personal attacks and lack of reasoned discussion. Way too emotional and lacking in any substance. Every answer was John 3:16. Boring

Point out a dishonesty? Be clear if it's just you not understanding. Ive stated nothing dishonest at all. Same as always.

---

With all due respect, this post describes you, freedom. As evidenced by all of the posts responding to you on this thread, you have a tendency to rub people the wrong way with your argumentative style. What typically happens is when you are confronted with the lack of logic or support for your theological positions, you posts devolve into inane rants and personal attacks against some protestant bogeyman. You've done it to me above, as with all of the other posters.

You have great difficulty defending your illogical and unsupported positions, and it makes you angry.

---

With all due respect you just described yourself. You equate your disagreement wirh my defense as me not posting a defense. You are bad at this. Most times you dont even debate so i move along perfectly content. You just say nah and project. Like this here very post you made. Its boring and nobody learns anything.

3 people pointed you to many verses etc to which you hardly responded as a perfect example. Shrug

And when youre aligned with the woman or dude i blocked well….

---

Of course your Catholic brethren have come to defend you. That would be expected. But the problem is, the facts are not what you have described. None of the verses you or your fellow Catholics have cited logically lead to the conclusion of a venue called purgatory.

As for your argumentative style, this thread is a microcosm of how you post. If someone refutes your position, as I did with your position on where Jesus went after his crucifixion, you ignore it because you cannot refute it. It is why my response to your post above has failed to receive a response.

You are unable.

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Never saw your response on where jesus went so i guess im living rent free in your head. Probably got lost in all your posts saying nah and youre bad at this etc without offering anything of value or substance in response.

I see you're trying a bit more now which is good to see. May liven things up

Thats your style. Weve seen enough to know

Give you a hundred verses and at best you say "thats not what it means".

Post 15 other people across centuries expounding that thats what everyone from the beginning thought it means and you say "Im smarter. They were wrong. Ive read the Bible and listen to dudes in skinny jeans at Bible study small group on sunday"

Thats your style.

KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

One thing various protestants make clear is they unlike even Paul know exactly how God will judge us.

Its clear they are not well read as you can find many perspectives and very smart humble people saying this is their best understanding and why but they could be wring. Protestants always know though! Lol

Such pride even when they cant defend position

KaiBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

God gave us his word where he TELLS us what he's going to do. He didn't leave it for us to guess and be scared and uncertain. He wants those of us who believe and trust in Jesus to have assurance and peace.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." - Jesus, in John 5:24

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds (stripes) we are healed" - Isaiah 53

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7


Scripture clearly teaches that the punishment for our sins was ALL on Jesus. Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL sin. For the believer, there is no sin left to be paid for by our own suffering. Believers will not be judged for their sin. Jesus already took that suffering FOR US. To say otherwise would be to diminish Jesus' finished, completed work on the cross, and it cheapens his shed blood. This is what the concept of purgatory does. Believers in purgatory are NOT putting their trust in the finished work of Jesus. This puts their salvation in total jeopardy. To "LOL" at this as you do, to call it a "waste of time", tells us all we need to know.

---

You have zero knowledge of exactly what puts Catholics in 'total jeopardy'

Only God knows.

And He alone will decide our fate.


Meanwhile continue to have fun appointing yourself as the omnipotent judge in this little message board.

Suspect it's the cheapest therapy available to you.

---

Right - only God knows.

Therefore it's okay to just go directly against his word.

Makes a whole lot of sense.

---

You don't get to decide who is directly against Gods Word.

Years of trying and you still don't.

Find some other way to bolster your ego.

---

Again - do you HONESTLY believe that saying Mary is the way to salvation, and bowing and praying to Mary's image amongst all the other things discussed is NOT going against God's word??

If so, you're not a Christian. You'd do much better re-examining your beliefs than spending all your energy for your defense mechanisms. They're not working.

---

You do not posses the right to determine who is, or who is not a Christian.

That you would even type such self serving tripe is really bizarre.

And you wonder out loud why folks put you on 'ignore'.

LOL

---

This isn't me "determining" anything. It's simply definitional. If you believe that Mary is the way to salvation, and that it's okay to bow down and pray to images of a human being - then by definition that makes you NOT a Christian.

There just isn't any rational argument against this. You're arguing angry nonsense and ad hominems, because, quite simply, you don't have anything else.

And based on the ones who've blocked me - it's a badge of honor. They, like you, lacked all ability to argue their views so they resorted to ad hominems. And then they finally resorted to denial (blocking) when I held them to the fire. It was just too painful for them realize that their beliefs were wrong. It was the only way they could cope. You seem to be along that same path.

So Glad i started this thread

Fascinating discourse. Starting to get some passion from some people. Nice!

Almost 300 posts on a topic the various near countless versions protestants have made clear they struggle to interpret.

When your foundation is osas you can get caught up all sorts of nonsense some never come back from

Fre3dombear said:

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KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

One thing various protestants make clear is they unlike even Paul know exactly how God will judge us.

Its clear they are not well read as you can find many perspectives and very smart humble people saying this is their best understanding and why but they could be wring. Protestants always know though! Lol

Such pride even when they cant defend position

---

I love Protestants, each and every one of their dozens of various denominations. Read somewhere new variations are still being established annually.

And that's great, the more the merrier.

They do not need to 'defend' their position(s) with me.

For that matter Jews, Mormons, Buddha's, Hindu's and atheists don't need to either.

Live in peace and God will eventually judge us all.

Oldbear83 said:

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Mothra said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

LOL

These kind of debates honestly amuse me.

As ONLY God knows exactly what He is going to do with each of us when our time comes.

To endlessly argue about various beliefs or details of those beliefs is ( in my opinion ) a silly waste of time.

---

Have to disagree with this, especially if the belief could lead toward a path toward eternal damnation.

For all of our political discussions, there literally is no more important topic to debate, given the consequences.

---

OK, no one asked me but I feel moved to talk about the Elephant.

Full disclosure, I was raised Southern Baptist, spent some time as a United Methodist and once scared my dad by suggesting while in High School that the RC had some good ideas and I might become a priest, then after exploring Buddhism, the Sikh faith and - not kidding - Jediism, I found my way back to the Southern Baptists.

My point is that while sometimes odd and often stubborn, I have tried to be open-minded about Faith and the personal relationship we each have with God. Too often, however, "discussions" on certain topics devolve into arguments and create resentment and a refusal to budge on even the smallest point, and there is no wisdom gained.

I thought about pointing out some of the many errors in play in this thread, but given the atmosphere I don't see that as helpful. So I would just ask each of us, whatever our beliefs, upbringing, and preferences, take a step back and - even if only as an intellectual exercise and to work on personal honesty, seriously consider the other person's take and why they believe it.

Consider that every group of believers numbering in the millions or more would seem to have something valid that should at least be respected.

Or, we can just go on throwing crap at each other and convince the atheists that there is nothing here but noise and repeated stupidity.

---

I don't disagree with this. That said, I think we must point out error when we see it. In fact, I believe we are called to do that.

Now I also agree that should be done humbly, and I admit it's difficult to do when you are personally attacked. Doesn't mean that's not our calling.

Coke Bear is a good example of someone on this thread who appears to debate honestly and gracefully. I wish I lived up to that standard all of the time.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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You have been very dishonest in this thread.

I had to block BTD because his pride allowed nothing else, I hope you are not following him.

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I Blocked him / her months ago for the personal attacks and lack of reasoned discussion. Way too emotional and lacking in any substance. Every answer was John 3:16. Boring

Point out a dishonesty? Be clear if it's just you not understanding. Ive stated nothing dishonest at all. Same as always.

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With all due respect, this post describes you, freedom. As evidenced by all of the posts responding to you on this thread, you have a tendency to rub people the wrong way with your argumentative style. What typically happens is when you are confronted with the lack of logic or support for your theological positions, you posts devolve into inane rants and personal attacks against some protestant bogeyman. You've done it to me above, as with all of the other posters.

You have great difficulty defending your illogical and unsupported positions, and it makes you angry.

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With all due respect you just described yourself. You equate your disagreement wirh my defense as me not posting a defense. You are bad at this. Most times you dont even debate so i move along perfectly content. You just say nah and project. Like this here very post you made. Its boring and nobody learns anything.

3 people pointed you to many verses etc to which you hardly responded as a perfect example. Shrug

And when youre aligned with the woman or dude i blocked well….

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Of course your Catholic brethren have come to defend you. That would be expected. But the problem is, the facts are not what you have described. None of the verses you or your fellow Catholics have cited logically lead to the conclusion of a venue called purgatory.

As for your argumentative style, this thread is a microcosm of how you post. If someone refutes your position, as I did with your position on where Jesus went after his crucifixion, you ignore it because you cannot refute it. It is why my response to your post above has failed to receive a response.

You are unable.

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Never saw your response on where jesus went so i guess im living rent free in your head. Probably got lost in all your posts saying nah and youre bad at this etc without offering anything of value or substance in response.

I see you're trying a bit more now which is good to see. May liven things up

Thats your style. Weve seen enough to know

Give you a hundred verses and at best you say "thats not what it means".

Post 15 other people across centuries expounding that thats what everyone from the beginning thought it means and you say "Im smarter. They were wrong. Ive read the Bible and listen to dudes in skinny jeans at Bible study small group on sunday"

Thats your style.

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I'll ignore the ad hominems and projection and simply ask you to respond to the post in question, if you are able.

It's not a long thread. Should be easy for you to find.

Good luck.

Fre3dombear said:

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Almost 300 posts on a topic the various near countless versions protestants have made clear they struggle to interpret.

When your foundation is osas you can get caught up all sorts of nonsense some never come back from

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This seems to be projection, but I'll play. What verses are "Protestants" struggling to interpret? Please identify the specific verses and posters. If you are able of course.