Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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I already responded to Coke. You would like me to respond twice?

As I pointed out above, the verses he cited don't mention purgatory nor do they insinuate its existence. When God says nothing unclean will enter heaven, that in no way implies the existence of a place never mentioned or alluded to in scripture. Coke is making some logical leaps regarding what scripture alludes to. Therein lies the problem.

Again, these arguments have been addressed. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Do you have any scriptural support for your position?

---

Things not said in the bible:

Trinity
Sola fide
Sola scriptura
Osas
Abortion
And i could go On and on

Weak defense of your position as always. Burden is upon you as what youre believing didnt exist for at least 1500 years and all that im discussing has 1) Biblical roots noted ad nauseum and 2) has supporting writings from many many church fathers dating back to Christ / near Christ etc . That would give me and most any logical person pause to refute that based on luther and calvin etc.

What of all the souls that lived and died not even knowing or thinking any thought youre suggesting in this context from say 33AD to 1521 when Martin Luther desperately desired to get laid?

I rest very very easy knowing my beliefs of my Catholic church remain consistent for 2000 years on these concepts from the scripture.

God will reveal all to us in the end but I and any Catholic can logically lay out, which has been done, the root of these concepts and the reasons for belief in them.

I wont tell you you and your family are going to hell for your beliefs as some on here (even you I guess with your "i Pray you find Jesus comment) seem to suggest. Some of those same people here passionately believe Mary isnt the mother of God so i personally would be very wary of throwing in with much of that crowds belief

Ill leave that to God to decide if John 6:53 and many other commands he gave that Protestants claim they dint believe in mattered, if you will go to purgatory or not after you die or immediately to Heaven (which level?) etc

Regardless i pray to see you there and will even buy you a beer if youll drink it and we can chuckle at what we got right and what we got wrong. What verses mattered and which ones we could pick and choose to ignore etc.

As another fun example i use in many talks is just ask siri who founded the Catholic church and when and who founded the Baptist church (or any of the 44,998 flavors) and when? . Which one of yall 44,998 religions is right? How do i know which to join?

---

So, you start a thread on the existence of purgatory, and have failed to provide even a shred of scriptural support for same (despite repeated request), but it's somehow my burden to disprove its existence? Hmmm. I am not sure you fully-understand burdens of proof. When you make a baseless and unsupported claim, no proof is needed to disprove it.

With respect to your allegation that the words "Trinity, Sola fide, Sola scriptura, Osas and Abortion" do not appear in scripture, we agree on this point. The difference between the first four concepts and purgatory is there is ample scriptural support for each of these concepts, as opposed to purgatory. With respect to abortion, I believe the practice is condemned in a number of verses, not the least of which is, "Thou shall not kill."

Can't really comment on the rest of your post. My issue with Catholicism is the lack of scriptural support for many of its beliefs, some of which I believe are diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings and the Holy Scriptures. While I realize that Catholics place precedence on "tradition," I think as with all things, tradition needs to be weighed against scripture, and where there is inconsistency, or the failure to find support for a tradition in scripture, I think such traditions are suspect and require very close scrutiny.

We also vehemently disagree that the Catholicism you practice existed at or around the time of Christ. What you practice looks nothing like the early church described in Acts, which simply was not Catholic in any sense of the word. I know you will vehemently disagree with this, but I think the difference between us is you once again lack the scriptural support for your position.

---

1) see coke bears post. I can add more but it is a screed of scriptural support for purgatory. Just because you say its not, nobody can help you there it would appear. You seem to want me to repost those verses for some reason.

---

We've been over this. The handful of verses Coke Bear references do not mention or suggest the existence of a place mentioned nowhere in scripture. You have to make some pretty substantial logical leaps to get to the position that the verses he cites suggest the existence of purgatory.

---

If the dead were in heaven or in hell, there was no need to make atonement for them or way to deliver them from their sins. If they weren't in heaven or hell, they must have been some place else. In terms of logic, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

---

Who said the dead aren't in Heaven or Hell? Certainly not scripture.

And even if it did say that, it wouldn't logically flow that they are in some fictitious, unmentioned place called "Purgatory" where they are being cleansed and atoning for their sins. Not only is such a concept unmentioned in scripture, it is diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings.

---

Scripture mentions that they are atoning for their sins. This implies that they aren't in heaven or hell, unless you believe heaven and hell are places of atonement and cleansing.

Christ also mentions sin that is not forgiven in this world or the next, which seems to endorse the Jewish tradition known to his audience.

Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I already responded to Coke. You would like me to respond twice?

As I pointed out above, the verses he cited don't mention purgatory nor do they insinuate its existence. When God says nothing unclean will enter heaven, that in no way implies the existence of a place never mentioned or alluded to in scripture. Coke is making some logical leaps regarding what scripture alludes to. Therein lies the problem.

Again, these arguments have been addressed. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Do you have any scriptural support for your position?

---

Things not said in the bible:

Trinity
Sola fide
Sola scriptura
Osas
Abortion
And i could go On and on

Weak defense of your position as always. Burden is upon you as what youre believing didnt exist for at least 1500 years and all that im discussing has 1) Biblical roots noted ad nauseum and 2) has supporting writings from many many church fathers dating back to Christ / near Christ etc . That would give me and most any logical person pause to refute that based on luther and calvin etc.

What of all the souls that lived and died not even knowing or thinking any thought youre suggesting in this context from say 33AD to 1521 when Martin Luther desperately desired to get laid?

I rest very very easy knowing my beliefs of my Catholic church remain consistent for 2000 years on these concepts from the scripture.

God will reveal all to us in the end but I and any Catholic can logically lay out, which has been done, the root of these concepts and the reasons for belief in them.

I wont tell you you and your family are going to hell for your beliefs as some on here (even you I guess with your "i Pray you find Jesus comment) seem to suggest. Some of those same people here passionately believe Mary isnt the mother of God so i personally would be very wary of throwing in with much of that crowds belief

Ill leave that to God to decide if John 6:53 and many other commands he gave that Protestants claim they dint believe in mattered, if you will go to purgatory or not after you die or immediately to Heaven (which level?) etc

Regardless i pray to see you there and will even buy you a beer if youll drink it and we can chuckle at what we got right and what we got wrong. What verses mattered and which ones we could pick and choose to ignore etc.

As another fun example i use in many talks is just ask siri who founded the Catholic church and when and who founded the Baptist church (or any of the 44,998 flavors) and when? . Which one of yall 44,998 religions is right? How do i know which to join?

---

So, you start a thread on the existence of purgatory, and have failed to provide even a shred of scriptural support for same (despite repeated request), but it's somehow my burden to disprove its existence? Hmmm. I am not sure you fully-understand burdens of proof. When you make a baseless and unsupported claim, no proof is needed to disprove it.

With respect to your allegation that the words "Trinity, Sola fide, Sola scriptura, Osas and Abortion" do not appear in scripture, we agree on this point. The difference between the first four concepts and purgatory is there is ample scriptural support for each of these concepts, as opposed to purgatory. With respect to abortion, I believe the practice is condemned in a number of verses, not the least of which is, "Thou shall not kill."

Can't really comment on the rest of your post. My issue with Catholicism is the lack of scriptural support for many of its beliefs, some of which I believe are diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings and the Holy Scriptures. While I realize that Catholics place precedence on "tradition," I think as with all things, tradition needs to be weighed against scripture, and where there is inconsistency, or the failure to find support for a tradition in scripture, I think such traditions are suspect and require very close scrutiny.

We also vehemently disagree that the Catholicism you practice existed at or around the time of Christ. What you practice looks nothing like the early church described in Acts, which simply was not Catholic in any sense of the word. I know you will vehemently disagree with this, but I think the difference between us is you once again lack the scriptural support for your position.

---

1) see coke bears post. I can add more but it is a screed of scriptural support for purgatory. Just because you say its not, nobody can help you there it would appear. You seem to want me to repost those verses for some reason.

---

We've been over this. The handful of verses Coke Bear references do not mention or suggest the existence of a place mentioned nowhere in scripture. You have to make some pretty substantial logical leaps to get to the position that the verses he cites suggest the existence of purgatory.

---

If the dead were in heaven or in hell, there was no need to make atonement for them or way to deliver them from their sins. If they weren't in heaven or hell, they must have been some place else. In terms of logic, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

---

Who said the dead aren't in Heaven or Hell? Certainly not scripture.

And even if it did say that, it wouldn't logically flow that they are in some fictitious, unmentioned place called "Purgatory" where they are being cleansed and atoning for their sins. Not only is such a concept unmentioned in scripture, it is diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings.

---

Non sequiturs are the foundation of Roman Catholic theology.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

This wholly unbiblical concept is one of the reasons I say I pray you find Jesus, my friend.

---

Lmao

As do i for you mi amigo. Theres still time. Confess. Be cleansed. John 6:53. Those are great starts. Without it all is lost.

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I already responded to Coke. You would like me to respond twice?

As I pointed out above, the verses he cited don't mention purgatory nor do they insinuate its existence. When God says nothing unclean will enter heaven, that in no way implies the existence of a place never mentioned or alluded to in scripture. Coke is making some logical leaps regarding what scripture alludes to. Therein lies the problem.

Again, these arguments have been addressed. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Do you have any scriptural support for your position?

---

Things not said in the bible:

Trinity
Sola fide
Sola scriptura
Osas
Abortion
And i could go On and on

Weak defense of your position as always. Burden is upon you as what youre believing didnt exist for at least 1500 years and all that im discussing has 1) Biblical roots noted ad nauseum and 2) has supporting writings from many many church fathers dating back to Christ / near Christ etc . That would give me and most any logical person pause to refute that based on luther and calvin etc.

What of all the souls that lived and died not even knowing or thinking any thought youre suggesting in this context from say 33AD to 1521 when Martin Luther desperately desired to get laid?

I rest very very easy knowing my beliefs of my Catholic church remain consistent for 2000 years on these concepts from the scripture.

God will reveal all to us in the end but I and any Catholic can logically lay out, which has been done, the root of these concepts and the reasons for belief in them.

I wont tell you you and your family are going to hell for your beliefs as some on here (even you I guess with your "i Pray you find Jesus comment) seem to suggest. Some of those same people here passionately believe Mary isnt the mother of God so i personally would be very wary of throwing in with much of that crowds belief

Ill leave that to God to decide if John 6:53 and many other commands he gave that Protestants claim they dint believe in mattered, if you will go to purgatory or not after you die or immediately to Heaven (which level?) etc

Regardless i pray to see you there and will even buy you a beer if youll drink it and we can chuckle at what we got right and what we got wrong. What verses mattered and which ones we could pick and choose to ignore etc.

As another fun example i use in many talks is just ask siri who founded the Catholic church and when and who founded the Baptist church (or any of the 44,998 flavors) and when? . Which one of yall 44,998 religions is right? How do i know which to join?

---

So, you start a thread on the existence of purgatory, and have failed to provide even a shred of scriptural support for same (despite repeated request), but it's somehow my burden to disprove its existence? Hmmm. I am not sure you fully-understand burdens of proof. When you make a baseless and unsupported claim, no proof is needed to disprove it.

With respect to your allegation that the words "Trinity, Sola fide, Sola scriptura, Osas and Abortion" do not appear in scripture, we agree on this point. The difference between the first four concepts and purgatory is there is ample scriptural support for each of these concepts, as opposed to purgatory. With respect to abortion, I believe the practice is condemned in a number of verses, not the least of which is, "Thou shall not kill."

Can't really comment on the rest of your post. My issue with Catholicism is the lack of scriptural support for many of its beliefs, some of which I believe are diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings and the Holy Scriptures. While I realize that Catholics place precedence on "tradition," I think as with all things, tradition needs to be weighed against scripture, and where there is inconsistency, or the failure to find support for a tradition in scripture, I think such traditions are suspect and require very close scrutiny.

We also vehemently disagree that the Catholicism you practice existed at or around the time of Christ. What you practice looks nothing like the early church described in Acts, which simply was not Catholic in any sense of the word. I know you will vehemently disagree with this, but I think the difference between us is you once again lack the scriptural support for your position.

---

1) see coke bears post. I can add more but it is a screed of scriptural support for purgatory. Just because you say its not, nobody can help you there it would appear. You seem to want me to repost those verses for some reason.

---

We've been over this. The handful of verses Coke Bear references do not mention or suggest the existence of a place mentioned nowhere in scripture. You have to make some pretty substantial logical leaps to get to the position that the verses he cites suggest the existence of purgatory.

---

If the dead were in heaven or in hell, there was no need to make atonement for them or way to deliver them from their sins. If they weren't in heaven or hell, they must have been some place else. In terms of logic, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

---

Who said the dead aren't in Heaven or Hell? Certainly not scripture.

And even if it did say that, it wouldn't logically flow that they are in some fictitious, unmentioned place called "Purgatory" where they are being cleansed and atoning for their sins. Not only is such a concept unmentioned in scripture, it is diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings.

---

Scripture mentions that they are atoning for their sins. This implies that they aren't in heaven or hell, unless you believe heaven and hell are places of atonement and cleansing.

Christ also mentions sin that is not forgiven in this world or the next, which seems to endorse the Jewish tradition known to his audience.

---

He cant even answer where jesus went when he died that nukes his whole position

Can teach it to em but cant learn it for em.

They follow a made up religion invented in 1517. Is what it is.

They get really spun up when you point out without Catholocism they wouldnt even have a scriptura to sola - also completey made up and nowhere in the Bible

Then they look at the numbers for their faith as people see and hear the truth and its game. Set. Match.

Just a matter of time. Tick. Tock.

Just wondering why you care so much about one country, and not so many other countries where innocent people are killed?

Project much?

Sam: ' Scripture mentions that they are atoning for their sins. "

Which specific Scripture, please?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Just wondering why you care so much about one country, and not so many other countries where innocent people are killed?

Project much?

---

Have zero idea what you are talking about.

We have a few individuals constantly attacking Catholics.

Incessantly….for years.

Some folks take such chatter to the next level and beginning killing.

All in the name of God ( don't you know ).

And Nigeria is the worst in the world right now. Tens of thousands of Catholics have been slaughtered by Muslims.

Wonder if the internet has played a role.

You see one side, deny the other.

Lots of people do this, it's not because of the Internet.

KaiBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Just wondering why you care so much about one country, and not so many other countries where innocent people are killed?

Project much?

---

Have zero idea what you are talking about.

We have a few individuals constantly attacking Catholics.

Incessantly….for years.

Some folks take such chatter to the next level and beginning killing.

All in the name of God ( don't you know ).

And Nigeria is the worst in the world right now. Tens of thousands of Catholics have been slaughtered by Muslims.

Wonder if the internet has played a role.

---

Add in Coptics. Full on ethnic cleansing

Of course we have the coming battle here in usa for our children thanks to the left. Inevitable.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I already responded to Coke. You would like me to respond twice?

As I pointed out above, the verses he cited don't mention purgatory nor do they insinuate its existence. When God says nothing unclean will enter heaven, that in no way implies the existence of a place never mentioned or alluded to in scripture. Coke is making some logical leaps regarding what scripture alludes to. Therein lies the problem.

Again, these arguments have been addressed. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Do you have any scriptural support for your position?

---

Things not said in the bible:

Trinity
Sola fide
Sola scriptura
Osas
Abortion
And i could go On and on

Weak defense of your position as always. Burden is upon you as what youre believing didnt exist for at least 1500 years and all that im discussing has 1) Biblical roots noted ad nauseum and 2) has supporting writings from many many church fathers dating back to Christ / near Christ etc . That would give me and most any logical person pause to refute that based on luther and calvin etc.

What of all the souls that lived and died not even knowing or thinking any thought youre suggesting in this context from say 33AD to 1521 when Martin Luther desperately desired to get laid?

I rest very very easy knowing my beliefs of my Catholic church remain consistent for 2000 years on these concepts from the scripture.

God will reveal all to us in the end but I and any Catholic can logically lay out, which has been done, the root of these concepts and the reasons for belief in them.

I wont tell you you and your family are going to hell for your beliefs as some on here (even you I guess with your "i Pray you find Jesus comment) seem to suggest. Some of those same people here passionately believe Mary isnt the mother of God so i personally would be very wary of throwing in with much of that crowds belief

Ill leave that to God to decide if John 6:53 and many other commands he gave that Protestants claim they dint believe in mattered, if you will go to purgatory or not after you die or immediately to Heaven (which level?) etc

Regardless i pray to see you there and will even buy you a beer if youll drink it and we can chuckle at what we got right and what we got wrong. What verses mattered and which ones we could pick and choose to ignore etc.

As another fun example i use in many talks is just ask siri who founded the Catholic church and when and who founded the Baptist church (or any of the 44,998 flavors) and when? . Which one of yall 44,998 religions is right? How do i know which to join?

---

So, you start a thread on the existence of purgatory, and have failed to provide even a shred of scriptural support for same (despite repeated request), but it's somehow my burden to disprove its existence? Hmmm. I am not sure you fully-understand burdens of proof. When you make a baseless and unsupported claim, no proof is needed to disprove it.

With respect to your allegation that the words "Trinity, Sola fide, Sola scriptura, Osas and Abortion" do not appear in scripture, we agree on this point. The difference between the first four concepts and purgatory is there is ample scriptural support for each of these concepts, as opposed to purgatory. With respect to abortion, I believe the practice is condemned in a number of verses, not the least of which is, "Thou shall not kill."

Can't really comment on the rest of your post. My issue with Catholicism is the lack of scriptural support for many of its beliefs, some of which I believe are diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings and the Holy Scriptures. While I realize that Catholics place precedence on "tradition," I think as with all things, tradition needs to be weighed against scripture, and where there is inconsistency, or the failure to find support for a tradition in scripture, I think such traditions are suspect and require very close scrutiny.

We also vehemently disagree that the Catholicism you practice existed at or around the time of Christ. What you practice looks nothing like the early church described in Acts, which simply was not Catholic in any sense of the word. I know you will vehemently disagree with this, but I think the difference between us is you once again lack the scriptural support for your position.

---

1) see coke bears post. I can add more but it is a screed of scriptural support for purgatory. Just because you say its not, nobody can help you there it would appear. You seem to want me to repost those verses for some reason.

---

We've been over this. The handful of verses Coke Bear references do not mention or suggest the existence of a place mentioned nowhere in scripture. You have to make some pretty substantial logical leaps to get to the position that the verses he cites suggest the existence of purgatory.

---

If the dead were in heaven or in hell, there was no need to make atonement for them or way to deliver them from their sins. If they weren't in heaven or hell, they must have been some place else. In terms of logic, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

---

Who said the dead aren't in Heaven or Hell? Certainly not scripture.

And even if it did say that, it wouldn't logically flow that they are in some fictitious, unmentioned place called "Purgatory" where they are being cleansed and atoning for their sins. Not only is such a concept unmentioned in scripture, it is diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings.

---

Scripture mentions that they are atoning for their sins. This implies that they aren't in heaven or hell, unless you believe heaven and hell are places of atonement and cleansing.

Christ also mentions sin that is not forgiven in this world or the next, which seems to endorse the Jewish tradition known to his audience.

---

I think it would be helpful to our discussion for you to cite the verses you believe support your position that the dead are atoning for their sins. I am unaware of these verses.

Please also post the verses where Christ mentions sin is not forgiven in this world or the next.

Thanks.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I already responded to Coke. You would like me to respond twice?

As I pointed out above, the verses he cited don't mention purgatory nor do they insinuate its existence. When God says nothing unclean will enter heaven, that in no way implies the existence of a place never mentioned or alluded to in scripture. Coke is making some logical leaps regarding what scripture alludes to. Therein lies the problem.

Again, these arguments have been addressed. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Do you have any scriptural support for your position?

---

Things not said in the bible:

Trinity
Sola fide
Sola scriptura
Osas
Abortion
And i could go On and on

Weak defense of your position as always. Burden is upon you as what youre believing didnt exist for at least 1500 years and all that im discussing has 1) Biblical roots noted ad nauseum and 2) has supporting writings from many many church fathers dating back to Christ / near Christ etc . That would give me and most any logical person pause to refute that based on luther and calvin etc.

What of all the souls that lived and died not even knowing or thinking any thought youre suggesting in this context from say 33AD to 1521 when Martin Luther desperately desired to get laid?

I rest very very easy knowing my beliefs of my Catholic church remain consistent for 2000 years on these concepts from the scripture.

God will reveal all to us in the end but I and any Catholic can logically lay out, which has been done, the root of these concepts and the reasons for belief in them.

I wont tell you you and your family are going to hell for your beliefs as some on here (even you I guess with your "i Pray you find Jesus comment) seem to suggest. Some of those same people here passionately believe Mary isnt the mother of God so i personally would be very wary of throwing in with much of that crowds belief

Ill leave that to God to decide if John 6:53 and many other commands he gave that Protestants claim they dint believe in mattered, if you will go to purgatory or not after you die or immediately to Heaven (which level?) etc

Regardless i pray to see you there and will even buy you a beer if youll drink it and we can chuckle at what we got right and what we got wrong. What verses mattered and which ones we could pick and choose to ignore etc.

As another fun example i use in many talks is just ask siri who founded the Catholic church and when and who founded the Baptist church (or any of the 44,998 flavors) and when? . Which one of yall 44,998 religions is right? How do i know which to join?

---

So, you start a thread on the existence of purgatory, and have failed to provide even a shred of scriptural support for same (despite repeated request), but it's somehow my burden to disprove its existence? Hmmm. I am not sure you fully-understand burdens of proof. When you make a baseless and unsupported claim, no proof is needed to disprove it.

With respect to your allegation that the words "Trinity, Sola fide, Sola scriptura, Osas and Abortion" do not appear in scripture, we agree on this point. The difference between the first four concepts and purgatory is there is ample scriptural support for each of these concepts, as opposed to purgatory. With respect to abortion, I believe the practice is condemned in a number of verses, not the least of which is, "Thou shall not kill."

Can't really comment on the rest of your post. My issue with Catholicism is the lack of scriptural support for many of its beliefs, some of which I believe are diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings and the Holy Scriptures. While I realize that Catholics place precedence on "tradition," I think as with all things, tradition needs to be weighed against scripture, and where there is inconsistency, or the failure to find support for a tradition in scripture, I think such traditions are suspect and require very close scrutiny.

We also vehemently disagree that the Catholicism you practice existed at or around the time of Christ. What you practice looks nothing like the early church described in Acts, which simply was not Catholic in any sense of the word. I know you will vehemently disagree with this, but I think the difference between us is you once again lack the scriptural support for your position.

---

1) see coke bears post. I can add more but it is a screed of scriptural support for purgatory. Just because you say its not, nobody can help you there it would appear. You seem to want me to repost those verses for some reason.

---

We've been over this. The handful of verses Coke Bear references do not mention or suggest the existence of a place mentioned nowhere in scripture. You have to make some pretty substantial logical leaps to get to the position that the verses he cites suggest the existence of purgatory.

---

If the dead were in heaven or in hell, there was no need to make atonement for them or way to deliver them from their sins. If they weren't in heaven or hell, they must have been some place else. In terms of logic, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

---

Who said the dead aren't in Heaven or Hell? Certainly not scripture.

And even if it did say that, it wouldn't logically flow that they are in some fictitious, unmentioned place called "Purgatory" where they are being cleansed and atoning for their sins. Not only is such a concept unmentioned in scripture, it is diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings.

---

Scripture mentions that they are atoning for their sins. This implies that they aren't in heaven or hell, unless you believe heaven and hell are places of atonement and cleansing.

Christ also mentions sin that is not forgiven in this world or the next, which seems to endorse the Jewish tradition known to his audience.

---

He cant even answer where jesus went when he died that nukes his whole position

Can teach it to em but cant learn it for em.

They follow a made up religion invented in 1517. Is what it is.

They get really spun up when you point out without Catholocism they wouldnt even have a scriptura to sola - also completey made up and nowhere in the Bible

Then they look at the numbers for their faith as people see and hear the truth and its game. Set. Match.

Just a matter of time. Tick. Tock.

---

Just to be clear, because I didn't answer where Christ went when he died, that somehow nuked my position that there is no purgatory? Hmm. I am not sure how that makes much sense.

But given that this question appears to be a stumbling block for you in our discussion, I will answer your question. We are not entirely sure where Christ went after his death. Some verses suggest he went to Hades/Sheol/Hell.

Ephesians 4:9 states this about Christ: "(In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?" 1 Peter 3:19 states that Christ went to a place where he "proclaimed to the spirits in prison." What is particularly interesting about this verse is whether these spirits are human souls in Hell, or the fallen angels.

Then other verses suggest he went to Heaven. Luke 23:43 suggests Christ went to "paradise" or Heaven.

Thus, ultimately, the Bible doesn't provide any single, explicit answer to the subject. Some verses suggest Heaven, and others suggest Hell. What we do know, however, is none of them suggest the existence of a place called purgatory where man atones for his sin.

I hope this helps with your confusion.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

This wholly unbiblical concept is one of the reasons I say I pray you find Jesus, my friend.

---

Lmao

As do i for you mi amigo. Theres still time. Confess. Be cleansed. John 6:53. Those are great atarts. Withoutit all is lost.

---

The good news is I have confessed and been cleansed by Christ's blood. And I didn't need Mary to do it.

Peace be with you.

Oldbear83 said:

---

You see one side, deny the other.

Lots of people do this, it's not because of the Internet.

---

What side am I denying ?

No one is attacking Prots week after week; year after year.

Catholics are content with their own Faith. Happy with their traditions and history.

However the fact remains that since 1920 more Catholics have been martyred for their Faith than any other Christian denomination; and it isn't even close.

Now oddballs can utilize the internet to blare their hatred
' in the name of God ' against other religions.

Of course on this free message board such vitriol doesn't matter in the slightest. Because there are what , maybe 30 active posters here ?

However it is fascinating to read such religious attacks and the ' justification ' for it.

Maybe it's a form of self therapy or a way to get noticed.

But for supposedly college graduates…..it's really weird.

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

Thanks for answering. The next two questions were asked previously and they've not been answered. Please do so and with explanations.

What is lacking in the blood of Christ that prevents salvation?

What does Mary provide that Christ blood does not?

KaiBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You see one side, deny the other.

Lots of people do this, it's not because of the Internet.

---

What side am I denying ?

No one is attacking Prots week after week; year after year.

Catholics are content with their own Faith. Happy with their traditions and history.

However the fact remains that since 1920 more Catholics have been martyred for their Faith than any other Christian denomination; and it isn't even close.

Now oddballs can utilize the internet to blare their hatred
' in the name of God ' against other religions.

Of course on this free message board such vitriol doesn't matter in the slightest. Because there are what , maybe 30 active posters here ?

However it is fascinating to read such religious attacks and the ' justification ' for it.

Maybe it's a form of self therapy or a way to get noticed.

But for supposedly college graduates…..it's really weird.

---

What kind of college graduates ignore clear facts and truth in order to defend/protect their identity and tribe?

The amazing irony is that you guys criticize those on the political left for doing the exact same thing. You really are no better.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I already responded to Coke. You would like me to respond twice?

As I pointed out above, the verses he cited don't mention purgatory nor do they insinuate its existence. When God says nothing unclean will enter heaven, that in no way implies the existence of a place never mentioned or alluded to in scripture. Coke is making some logical leaps regarding what scripture alludes to. Therein lies the problem.

Again, these arguments have been addressed. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Do you have any scriptural support for your position?

---

Things not said in the bible:

Trinity
Sola fide
Sola scriptura
Osas
Abortion
And i could go On and on

Weak defense of your position as always. Burden is upon you as what youre believing didnt exist for at least 1500 years and all that im discussing has 1) Biblical roots noted ad nauseum and 2) has supporting writings from many many church fathers dating back to Christ / near Christ etc . That would give me and most any logical person pause to refute that based on luther and calvin etc.

What of all the souls that lived and died not even knowing or thinking any thought youre suggesting in this context from say 33AD to 1521 when Martin Luther desperately desired to get laid?

I rest very very easy knowing my beliefs of my Catholic church remain consistent for 2000 years on these concepts from the scripture.

God will reveal all to us in the end but I and any Catholic can logically lay out, which has been done, the root of these concepts and the reasons for belief in them.

I wont tell you you and your family are going to hell for your beliefs as some on here (even you I guess with your "i Pray you find Jesus comment) seem to suggest. Some of those same people here passionately believe Mary isnt the mother of God so i personally would be very wary of throwing in with much of that crowds belief

Ill leave that to God to decide if John 6:53 and many other commands he gave that Protestants claim they dint believe in mattered, if you will go to purgatory or not after you die or immediately to Heaven (which level?) etc

Regardless i pray to see you there and will even buy you a beer if youll drink it and we can chuckle at what we got right and what we got wrong. What verses mattered and which ones we could pick and choose to ignore etc.

As another fun example i use in many talks is just ask siri who founded the Catholic church and when and who founded the Baptist church (or any of the 44,998 flavors) and when? . Which one of yall 44,998 religions is right? How do i know which to join?

---

So, you start a thread on the existence of purgatory, and have failed to provide even a shred of scriptural support for same (despite repeated request), but it's somehow my burden to disprove its existence? Hmmm. I am not sure you fully-understand burdens of proof. When you make a baseless and unsupported claim, no proof is needed to disprove it.

With respect to your allegation that the words "Trinity, Sola fide, Sola scriptura, Osas and Abortion" do not appear in scripture, we agree on this point. The difference between the first four concepts and purgatory is there is ample scriptural support for each of these concepts, as opposed to purgatory. With respect to abortion, I believe the practice is condemned in a number of verses, not the least of which is, "Thou shall not kill."

Can't really comment on the rest of your post. My issue with Catholicism is the lack of scriptural support for many of its beliefs, some of which I believe are diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings and the Holy Scriptures. While I realize that Catholics place precedence on "tradition," I think as with all things, tradition needs to be weighed against scripture, and where there is inconsistency, or the failure to find support for a tradition in scripture, I think such traditions are suspect and require very close scrutiny.

We also vehemently disagree that the Catholicism you practice existed at or around the time of Christ. What you practice looks nothing like the early church described in Acts, which simply was not Catholic in any sense of the word. I know you will vehemently disagree with this, but I think the difference between us is you once again lack the scriptural support for your position.

---

1) see coke bears post. I can add more but it is a screed of scriptural support for purgatory. Just because you say its not, nobody can help you there it would appear. You seem to want me to repost those verses for some reason.

---

We've been over this. The handful of verses Coke Bear references do not mention or suggest the existence of a place mentioned nowhere in scripture. You have to make some pretty substantial logical leaps to get to the position that the verses he cites suggest the existence of purgatory.

---

If the dead were in heaven or in hell, there was no need to make atonement for them or way to deliver them from their sins. If they weren't in heaven or hell, they must have been some place else. In terms of logic, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

---

Who said the dead aren't in Heaven or Hell? Certainly not scripture.

And even if it did say that, it wouldn't logically flow that they are in some fictitious, unmentioned place called "Purgatory" where they are being cleansed and atoning for their sins. Not only is such a concept unmentioned in scripture, it is diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings.

---

Scripture mentions that they are atoning for their sins. This implies that they aren't in heaven or hell, unless you believe heaven and hell are places of atonement and cleansing.

Christ also mentions sin that is not forgiven in this world or the next, which seems to endorse the Jewish tradition known to his audience.

---

They follow a made up religion invented in 1517. Is what it is.

---

Your Church has strayed so far from Jesus' truth, that returning to that truth looks like a new invention.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

I already responded to Coke. You would like me to respond twice?

As I pointed out above, the verses he cited don't mention purgatory nor do they insinuate its existence. When God says nothing unclean will enter heaven, that in no way implies the existence of a place never mentioned or alluded to in scripture. Coke is making some logical leaps regarding what scripture alludes to. Therein lies the problem.

Again, these arguments have been addressed. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Do you have any scriptural support for your position?

---

Things not said in the bible:

Trinity
Sola fide
Sola scriptura
Osas
Abortion
And i could go On and on

Weak defense of your position as always. Burden is upon you as what youre believing didnt exist for at least 1500 years and all that im discussing has 1) Biblical roots noted ad nauseum and 2) has supporting writings from many many church fathers dating back to Christ / near Christ etc . That would give me and most any logical person pause to refute that based on luther and calvin etc.

What of all the souls that lived and died not even knowing or thinking any thought youre suggesting in this context from say 33AD to 1521 when Martin Luther desperately desired to get laid?

I rest very very easy knowing my beliefs of my Catholic church remain consistent for 2000 years on these concepts from the scripture.

God will reveal all to us in the end but I and any Catholic can logically lay out, which has been done, the root of these concepts and the reasons for belief in them.

I wont tell you you and your family are going to hell for your beliefs as some on here (even you I guess with your "i Pray you find Jesus comment) seem to suggest. Some of those same people here passionately believe Mary isnt the mother of God so i personally would be very wary of throwing in with much of that crowds belief

Ill leave that to God to decide if John 6:53 and many other commands he gave that Protestants claim they dint believe in mattered, if you will go to purgatory or not after you die or immediately to Heaven (which level?) etc

Regardless i pray to see you there and will even buy you a beer if youll drink it and we can chuckle at what we got right and what we got wrong. What verses mattered and which ones we could pick and choose to ignore etc.

As another fun example i use in many talks is just ask siri who founded the Catholic church and when and who founded the Baptist church (or any of the 44,998 flavors) and when? . Which one of yall 44,998 religions is right? How do i know which to join?

---

So, you start a thread on the existence of purgatory, and have failed to provide even a shred of scriptural support for same (despite repeated request), but it's somehow my burden to disprove its existence? Hmmm. I am not sure you fully-understand burdens of proof. When you make a baseless and unsupported claim, no proof is needed to disprove it.

With respect to your allegation that the words "Trinity, Sola fide, Sola scriptura, Osas and Abortion" do not appear in scripture, we agree on this point. The difference between the first four concepts and purgatory is there is ample scriptural support for each of these concepts, as opposed to purgatory. With respect to abortion, I believe the practice is condemned in a number of verses, not the least of which is, "Thou shall not kill."

Can't really comment on the rest of your post. My issue with Catholicism is the lack of scriptural support for many of its beliefs, some of which I believe are diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings and the Holy Scriptures. While I realize that Catholics place precedence on "tradition," I think as with all things, tradition needs to be weighed against scripture, and where there is inconsistency, or the failure to find support for a tradition in scripture, I think such traditions are suspect and require very close scrutiny.

We also vehemently disagree that the Catholicism you practice existed at or around the time of Christ. What you practice looks nothing like the early church described in Acts, which simply was not Catholic in any sense of the word. I know you will vehemently disagree with this, but I think the difference between us is you once again lack the scriptural support for your position.

---

1) see coke bears post. I can add more but it is a screed of scriptural support for purgatory. Just because you say its not, nobody can help you there it would appear. You seem to want me to repost those verses for some reason.

---

We've been over this. The handful of verses Coke Bear references do not mention or suggest the existence of a place mentioned nowhere in scripture. You have to make some pretty substantial logical leaps to get to the position that the verses he cites suggest the existence of purgatory.

---

If the dead were in heaven or in hell, there was no need to make atonement for them or way to deliver them from their sins. If they weren't in heaven or hell, they must have been some place else. In terms of logic, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

---

Who said the dead aren't in Heaven or Hell? Certainly not scripture.

And even if it did say that, it wouldn't logically flow that they are in some fictitious, unmentioned place called "Purgatory" where they are being cleansed and atoning for their sins. Not only is such a concept unmentioned in scripture, it is diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings.

---

Scripture mentions that they are atoning for their sins. This implies that they aren't in heaven or hell, unless you believe heaven and hell are places of atonement and cleansing.

Christ also mentions sin that is not forgiven in this world or the next, which seems to endorse the Jewish tradition known to his audience.

---

They get really spun up when you point out without Catholocism they wouldnt even have a scriptura to sola - also completey made up and nowhere in the Bible

---

It never ceases to amaze me how Roman Catholics believe that the Old Testament writers, the Gospel writers, and the original apostles were all Roman Catholics who believed in purgatory, bowing down and praying to idols, that the "Holy Father" is the pope, confessing only to priests for forgiveness, that Mary is "The All Holy One" whose intercession is necessary for salvation, etc.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

Thanks for answering. The next two questions were asked previously and they've not been answered. Please do so and with explanations.

What is lacking in the blood of Christ that prevents salvation?

What does Mary provide that Christ blood does not?

---

Nothing. Its the same with basically all the disagreements for the Protestants that schismed in 1517 to today with misunderetood beliefs. For example:

"It doesnt say confess your sins to a priest. I go straight to God!"

Ok. If the protestanrs are right and what they began in 1517 is correct, what have the Catholics done to harm themselves by the sacrament of confession? Nothing

But if you're wrong? Oops. Thats a big problem for the Protestants.

And i could go on and on and have. All in prior posts. With dozens of passages noted and explained on each of these topics.

Even the founder of your religion believed all these things before he succumbed to the sins of the flesh and led so many astray

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You see one side, deny the other.

Lots of people do this, it's not because of the Internet.

---

What side am I denying ?

No one is attacking Prots week after week; year after year.

Catholics are content with their own Faith. Happy with their traditions and history.

However the fact remains that since 1920 more Catholics have been martyred for their Faith than any other Christian denomination; and it isn't even close.

Now oddballs can utilize the internet to blare their hatred
' in the name of God ' against other religions.

Of course on this free message board such vitriol doesn't matter in the slightest. Because there are what , maybe 30 active posters here ?

However it is fascinating to read such religious attacks and the ' justification ' for it.

Maybe it's a form of self therapy or a way to get noticed.

But for supposedly college graduates…..it's really weird.

---

What kind of college graduates ignore clear facts and truth in order to defend/protect their identity and tribe?

The amazing irony is that you guys criticize those on the political left for doing the exact same thing. You really are no better.

---

Dude ...even Stalin, Pol Pot, Lenin and Mao had their 'facts' which 'justified' their hatreds.

Putin has his 'facts',

You droll on and on for weeks at a time with your anti Catholic obsession.

Obviously you aren't going to alter your behavior at this point in your life; but it is certainly amazing to watch.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

Mary has nothing to do with salvation.

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

KaiBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You see one side, deny the other.

Lots of people do this, it's not because of the Internet.

---

What side am I denying ?

No one is attacking Prots week after week; year after year.

Catholics are content with their own Faith. Happy with their traditions and history.

However the fact remains that since 1920 more Catholics have been martyred for their Faith than any other Christian denomination; and it isn't even close.

Now oddballs can utilize the internet to blare their hatred
' in the name of God ' against other religions.

Of course on this free message board such vitriol doesn't matter in the slightest. Because there are what , maybe 30 active posters here ?

However it is fascinating to read such religious attacks and the ' justification ' for it.

Maybe it's a form of self therapy or a way to get noticed.

But for supposedly college graduates…..it's really weird.

---

What kind of college graduates ignore clear facts and truth in order to defend/protect their identity and tribe?

The amazing irony is that you guys criticize those on the political left for doing the exact same thing. You really are no better.

---

Dude ...even Stalin, Pol Pot, Lenin and Mao had their 'facts' which 'justified' their hatreds.

Putin has his 'facts',

You droll on and on for weeks at a time with your anti Catholic obsession.

Obviously you aren't going to alter your behavior at this point in your life; but it is certainly amazing to watch.

---

Stalin, Pol Pot, Lenin, and Mao's "facts" are easily argued against.

However, you are having an awfully hard time arguing against mine.

The difference isn't escaping notice. What's amazing to watch, rather, is the immature defense mechanisms from self-proclaimed college educated grown ups in lieu of actual substantive arguments.

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

---

Exactly right.

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

---

Mary is without sin

And of course you have no clue what God would have done if Marys free will was not what she said in Luke 1:38

Protestants obsess way too much about Mariology. Thats the devil working in you. Its taking your eye off the ball of other issues protestant faith has. hes duped protestants into comments like:

"Catholics worship Mary"

"Catholics think mary hives salvation"

All wastes of brain space by the devil in prot minds and 100% incorrect as no one believes that that is Catholic .

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

---

Mary is without sin

And of course you have no clue what God would have done if Marys free will was not what she said in Luke 1:38

Protestants obsess way too much about Mariology. Thats the devil working in you. Its taking your eye off the ball of other issues protestant faith has. hes duped protestants into comments like:

"Catholics worship Mary"

"Catholics think mary hives salvation"

All wastes of brain space by the devil in prot minds and 100% incorrect as no one believes that that is Catholic .

---

Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned". That includes Mary.

It seems like Catholics who claim Mary was sinless are the ones obsessing over her. That places her on an equal footing with Jesus which she clearly was not. There is no scriptural basis to elevate her beyond a woman chosen by God for a special purpose. The Bible has many such individuals.

The only point of my hypothetical is that it's all about God, not Mary or any other human.

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

---

Mary is without sin

And of course you have no clue what God would have done if Marys free will was not what she said in Luke 1:38

Protestants obsess way too much about Mariology. Thats the devil working in you. Its taking your eye off the ball of other issues protestant faith has. hes duped protestants into comments like:

"Catholics worship Mary"

"Catholics think mary hives salvation"

All wastes of brain space by the devil in prot minds and 100% incorrect as no one believes that that is Catholic .

---

Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned". That includes Mary.

It seems like Catholics who claim Mary was sinless are the ones obsessing over her. That places her on an equal footing with Jesus which she clearly was not. There is no scriptural basis to elevate her beyond a woman chosen by God for a special purpose. The Bible has many such individuals.

The only point of my hypothetical is that it's all about God, not Mary or any other human.

---

Protestamts attempt to Project mary on equal footing with Jesus. She grants salvation to no one. No Catholic worships Mary.

It is amazing how much time Protestants apparently spend thinking about something they dint believe in. Catholics could care less what protestants think about it. Its something they miss out on in this temporal sojourn.

Its also indisputable that Our Lady of Guadalupe brought more people to Christianity than anything in history. Imagine giving zero Value to that. Strange take but millions of protestants obsess on it oddly

To Protestants shes "just another woman". So glad thats not my belief system praise God

Thanks for confirming your blindness.

Just for thought, though, are you aware of the difference between how the PRC treats the RC denomination, and how it treats Baptists, Mormons, and JW's?

Again, I never said RC's don't face persecution, but your lie that Protestants do not also face persecution, well, that's blatantly a lie.

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

---

Mary is without sin

And of course you have no clue what God would have done if Marys free will was not what she said in Luke 1:38

Protestants obsess way too much about Mariology. Thats the devil working in you. Its taking your eye off the ball of other issues protestant faith has. hes duped protestants into comments like:

"Catholics worship Mary"

"Catholics think mary hives salvation"

All wastes of brain space by the devil in prot minds and 100% incorrect as no one believes that that is Catholic .

---

Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned". That includes Mary.

It seems like Catholics who claim Mary was sinless are the ones obsessing over her. That places her on an equal footing with Jesus which she clearly was not. There is no scriptural basis to elevate her beyond a woman chosen by God for a special purpose. The Bible has many such individuals.

The only point of my hypothetical is that it's all about God, not Mary or any other human.

---

Protestamts attempt to Project mary on equal footing with Jesus. She grants salvation to no one. No Catholic worships Mary.

It is amazing how much time Protestants apparently spend thinking about something they dint believe in. Catholics could care less what protestants think about it. Its something they miss out on in this temporal sojourn.

Its also indisputable that Our Lady of Guadalupe brought more people to Christianity than anything in history. Imagine giving zero Value to that. Strange take but millions of protestants obsess on it oddly

To Protestants shes "just another woman". So glad thats not my belief system praise God

---

God shows no partiality so in that sense she is the same as any other woman. OTOH, she was blessed to be chosen by God and is a great example for everyone because of her faith. It's about humility, repentance, and believing in God. Nothing else matters when it comes to salvation.

Between the two of us, you are the only one obsessing over anything. I'm stating biblical facts.

Just for the record, the "founder of [my] religion" made a covenant with Abraham and was "well pleased" with His Son whose teaching and example I believe in and try to follow.

Unlike some RCs, I don't place my faith in human merit.

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

---

Mary is without sin

And of course you have no clue what God would have done if Marys free will was not what she said in Luke 1:38

Protestants obsess way too much about Mariology. Thats the devil working in you. Its taking your eye off the ball of other issues protestant faith has. hes duped protestants into comments like:

"Catholics worship Mary"

"Catholics think mary hives salvation"

All wastes of brain space by the devil in prot minds and 100% incorrect as no one believes that that is Catholic .

---

Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned". That includes Mary.

It seems like Catholics who claim Mary was sinless are the ones obsessing over her. That places her on an equal footing with Jesus which she clearly was not. There is no scriptural basis to elevate her beyond a woman chosen by God for a special purpose. The Bible has many such individuals.

The only point of my hypothetical is that it's all about God, not Mary or any other human.

---

Protestamts attempt to Project mary on equal footing with Jesus. She grants salvation to no one. No Catholic worships Mary.

It is amazing how much time Protestants apparently spend thinking about something they dint believe in. Catholics could care less what protestants think about it. Its something they miss out on in this temporal sojourn.

Its also indisputable that Our Lady of Guadalupe brought more people to Christianity than anything in history. Imagine giving zero Value to that. Strange take but millions of protestants obsess on it oddly

To Protestants shes "just another woman". So glad thats not my belief system praise God

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God shows no partiality so in that sense she is the same as any other woman. OTOH, she was blessed to be chosen by God and is a great example for everyone because of her faith. It's about humility, repentance, and believing in God. Nothing else matters when it comes to salvation.

Between the two of us, you are the only one obsessing over anything. I'm stating biblical facts.

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Youre the one speaking incessantly of Mary. Im only responding to questions. Not really a topic for me with protestants. They are easily triggered by it. Yet they choose to not participate in the veneration of the mother of God.

If i was Protestant id just shrug on it and move along but Protestants never do. I winder why? Why do they care so much when they say they dont care? Its odd. But maybe Mary trying to call them home before its too late?

Oldbear83 said:

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Just for the record, the "founder of [my] religion" made a covenant with Abraham and was "well pleased" with His Son whose teaching and example I believe in and try to follow.

Unlike some RCs, I don't place my faith in human merit.

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No Catholics do that. As has been stated ad nauseum we are saved by the grace of God.

And if your religion was founded by Jesus (seems youre saying some one else) your ancestors were Catholic until another ancestor left the faith founded by Christ, born of the Mother of God, in schism for a *******ized version

Is what it is

Fre3dombear said:

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historian said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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historian said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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historian said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

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No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

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One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

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Mary is without sin

And of course you have no clue what God would have done if Marys free will was not what she said in Luke 1:38

Protestants obsess way too much about Mariology. Thats the devil working in you. Its taking your eye off the ball of other issues protestant faith has. hes duped protestants into comments like:

"Catholics worship Mary"

"Catholics think mary hives salvation"

All wastes of brain space by the devil in prot minds and 100% incorrect as no one believes that that is Catholic .

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Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned". That includes Mary.

It seems like Catholics who claim Mary was sinless are the ones obsessing over her. That places her on an equal footing with Jesus which she clearly was not. There is no scriptural basis to elevate her beyond a woman chosen by God for a special purpose. The Bible has many such individuals.

The only point of my hypothetical is that it's all about God, not Mary or any other human.

---

Protestamts attempt to Project mary on equal footing with Jesus. She grants salvation to no one. No Catholic worships Mary.

It is amazing how much time Protestants apparently spend thinking about something they dint believe in. Catholics could care less what protestants think about it. Its something they miss out on in this temporal sojourn.

Its also indisputable that Our Lady of Guadalupe brought more people to Christianity than anything in history. Imagine giving zero Value to that. Strange take but millions of protestants obsess on it oddly

To Protestants shes "just another woman". So glad thats not my belief system praise God

---

God shows no partiality so in that sense she is the same as any other woman. OTOH, she was blessed to be chosen by God and is a great example for everyone because of her faith. It's about humility, repentance, and believing in God. Nothing else matters when it comes to salvation.

Between the two of us, you are the only one obsessing over anything. I'm stating biblical facts.

---

Youre the one speaking incessantly of Mary....

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Prayed many rosaries, have you?

Nothing says "speaking incessantly of Mary" quite like the mindless repetition of her name in prayer over and over and over. Even when Jesus specifically told you not to do that. Add in the bowing and praying to her statue in church, singing hymns to her, celebrating festivals throughout the year for her, calling her "The All Holy One", "God of this world", "salvation of the universe" and saying her intercession is necessary for salvation.... now you're not just in to full on obsession, you're in to far, far worse - outright damnable evil that disqualifies you from salvation.

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

---

Mary is without sin

And of course you have no clue what God would have done if Marys free will was not what she said in Luke 1:38

Protestants obsess way too much about Mariology. Thats the devil working in you. Its taking your eye off the ball of other issues protestant faith has. hes duped protestants into comments like:

"Catholics worship Mary"

"Catholics think mary hives salvation"

All wastes of brain space by the devil in prot minds and 100% incorrect as no one believes that that is Catholic .

---

Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned". That includes Mary.

It seems like Catholics who claim Mary was sinless are the ones obsessing over her. That places her on an equal footing with Jesus which she clearly was not. There is no scriptural basis to elevate her beyond a woman chosen by God for a special purpose. The Bible has many such individuals.

The only point of my hypothetical is that it's all about God, not Mary or any other human.

---

Its also indisputable that Our Lady of Guadalupe brought more people to Christianity than anything in history. Imagine giving zero Value to that. Strange take but millions of protestants obsess on it oddly

---

The Lady of Guadalupe commanded that a church be built in her honor. That's not from God, that's from Satan. The real Mary would never even think of doing that. Those people were most definitely NOT led to Christianity. They were led to the worship of demons.

It truly is painful to see just how deceived Roman Catholics are.

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Can I get to heaven without Christ?

Can I get to heaven without Mary?

Not rhetorical.

---

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

---

One does not need to know anything about Mary to know Jesus. She did nothing to make salvation possible. Put another way, if God had not chosen her to bear the Christ child He could have and would have chosen someone else.

If she never repented of her sins and accepted Christ as her savior, then she did not go to heaven.

Romans 3:23 does not make any exception for Mary.

---

Mary is without sin

And of course you have no clue what God would have done if Marys free will was not what she said in Luke 1:38

Protestants obsess way too much about Mariology. Thats the devil working in you. Its taking your eye off the ball of other issues protestant faith has. hes duped protestants into comments like:

"Catholics worship Mary"

"Catholics think mary hives salvation"

All wastes of brain space by the devil in prot minds and 100% incorrect as no one believes that that is Catholic .

---

Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned". That includes Mary.

It seems like Catholics who claim Mary was sinless are the ones obsessing over her. That places her on an equal footing with Jesus which she clearly was not. There is no scriptural basis to elevate her beyond a woman chosen by God for a special purpose. The Bible has many such individuals.

The only point of my hypothetical is that it's all about God, not Mary or any other human.

---

...(Mary) grants salvation to no one. No Catholic worships Mary.

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"Mary, Blessed Virgin, Immaculate Queen, I dedicate my family forever to thy service, I appoint thee ruler of my whole house. Bless us, defend us, provide for us, counsel us, comfort us, assist us in our infirmities, especially in the sorrows of death, grant that we may go to heaven."

-from The Glories of Mary, by St. Alphonsus de Ligouri, doctor of the Roman Catholic Church, printed and reprinted in over 800 editions, fully sanctioned and endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church, having been quoted by theologians, priests, bishops and popes, and declared "Imprimatur" which is a declaration that it is free from error with regard to Roman Catholic doctrine, faith, and morals.

Just replied to YOUR lie, maybe you should mention that in your next confession.