As a Protestant I didn't understand the bones of Elijah nor Paul's handkerchiefs/cloth healing people and driving out demons. The question is whether God works through sanctified matter, and Acts 19 says yes.

If one rejects blessed objects and relics, it requires them to maintain a spirit/matter dualism that the Incarnation itself demolished. If God took on flesh and that flesh healed and sanctified, then I'd have to quarantine grace from matter and fully commit to Gnosticism by rejecting that.

The saints are genuinely deified through participation in God's uncreated energies. Their bodies are real temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19), and that sanctification penetrates their physical matter. Grace doesn't evaporate at death, which is why Elijah's bones raised a dead man (2 Kings 13:21) and Paul's handkerchiefs drove out demons (Acts 19:12).

The relics aren't the source of power. It's sanctified matter through which God chooses to act, exactly the same logic as baptismal water or the Eucharist. The Incarnation established that God works through material reality. Relics and blessed objects flow directly from that principle.

I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

My son showed me something on this. Would love to see it as you come across it.

Oldbear83 said:

---

I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

---

Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

---

Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

---

It is what the image is on. Google is your friend.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

, I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

---

Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

---

It is what the image is on. Google is your friend.

---

You wanna use an unusual word, it's on you to explain yourself.

And it should be clear that when I mentioned Vision, I was talking about Guadalupe. The Shroud is right there to be tested and considered, we only have indirect accounts about the Vision at Guadalupe.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

, I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

---

Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

---

It is what the image is on. Google is your friend.

---

You wanna use an unusual word, it's on you to explain yourself.

And it should be clear that when I mentioned Vision, I was talking about Guadalupe. The Shroud is right there to be tested and considered, we only have indirect accounts about the Vision at Guadalupe.

---

Thats on you to educate yourself if you're curious. I'm not speaking of a vision at Guadalupe. Dont be lazy.

It's only an odd word to those that are not learned on the topic.

FLBear5630 said:

---

My son showed me something on this. Would love to see it as you come across it.

---

This is a great starting point if not well read on the shroud.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

d , I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

---

Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

---

It is what the image is on. Google is your friend.

---

You wanna use an unusual word, it's on you to explain yourself.

And it should be clear that when I mentioned Vision, I was talking about Guadalupe. The Shroud is right there to be tested and considered, we only have indirect accounts about the Vision at Guadalupe.

---

Thats on you to educate yourself if you're curious. I'm not speaking of a vision at Guadalupe. Dont be lazy.

It's only an odd word to those that are not learned on the topic.

---

I clearly referenced the Shroud and the Vision. You are the one who confused yourself.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

d , I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

---

Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

---

It is what the image is on. Google is your friend.

---

You wanna use an unusual word, it's on you to explain yourself.

And it should be clear that when I mentioned Vision, I was talking about Guadalupe. The Shroud is right there to be tested and considered, we only have indirect accounts about the Vision at Guadalupe.

---

Thats on you to educate yourself if you're curious. I'm not speaking of a vision at Guadalupe. Dont be lazy.

It's only an odd word to those that are not learned on the topic.

---

I clearly referenced the Shroud and the Vision. You are the one who confused yourself.

---

Youre the only one here speaking of a vision. Feel free to start a thread on that. This thread is not about a vision. Not confused in the least. As always.

I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

d , I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

---

Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

---

It is what the image is on. Google is your friend.

---

You wanna use an unusual word, it's on you to explain yourself.

And it should be clear that when I mentioned Vision, I was talking about Guadalupe. The Shroud is right there to be tested and considered, we only have indirect accounts about the Vision at Guadalupe.

---

Thats on you to educate yourself if you're curious. I'm not speaking of a vision at Guadalupe. Dont be lazy.

It's only an odd word to those that are not learned on the topic.

---

I clearly referenced the Shroud and the Vision. You are the one who confused yourself.

---

Youre the only one here speaking of a vision. Feel free to start a thread on that. This thread is not about a vision. Not confused in the least. As always.

---

The Lady of Guadalupe was, if not a vision, what then?

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

d , I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

---

Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

---

It is what the image is on. Google is your friend.

---

You wanna use an unusual word, it's on you to explain yourself.

And it should be clear that when I mentioned Vision, I was talking about Guadalupe. The Shroud is right there to be tested and considered, we only have indirect accounts about the Vision at Guadalupe.

---

Thats on you to educate yourself if you're curious. I'm not speaking of a vision at Guadalupe. Dont be lazy.

It's only an odd word to those that are not learned on the topic.

---

I clearly referenced the Shroud and the Vision. You are the one who confused yourself.

---

Youre the only one here speaking of a vision. Feel free to start a thread on that. This thread is not about a vision. Not confused in the least. As always.

---

The Lady of Guadalupe was, if not a vision, what then?

---

https://guadalupeshrine.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/our-lady-guadalupe-image-infographic-english.pdf

Highly recommend anyone to Go See it at the Basilica in Mexico City

BearWithMe said:

---

I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

---

I will be sharing much here in this thread for consideration. I ask everyone to Keep An open mind and I will try to make a fact based and reasoned defense for their authenticity

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

d , I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

---

To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

---

Elucidate, please.

---

The tilma

---

Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

---

It is what the image is on. Google is your friend.

---

You wanna use an unusual word, it's on you to explain yourself.

And it should be clear that when I mentioned Vision, I was talking about Guadalupe. The Shroud is right there to be tested and considered, we only have indirect accounts about the Vision at Guadalupe.

---

Thats on you to educate yourself if you're curious. I'm not speaking of a vision at Guadalupe. Dont be lazy.

It's only an odd word to those that are not learned on the topic.

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I clearly referenced the Shroud and the Vision. You are the one who confused yourself.

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Youre the only one here speaking of a vision. Feel free to start a thread on that. This thread is not about a vision. Not confused in the least. As always.

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The Lady of Guadalupe was, if not a vision, what then?

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https://guadalupeshrine.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/our-lady-guadalupe-image-infographic-english.pdf

Highly recommend anyone to Go See it at the Basilica in Mexico City

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Thanks. I would have to learn more about the tests done to confirm the claims, most of what I saw on the pdf was essentially a semantic argument, but will check it out.

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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d , I recall seeing a cartoon where one rat was demanding the other rat prove there was a world outside the laboratory. Seems appropriate for this situation. That is, there are different perspectives, but each has its own rules to confirm or disprove a contention.

Science has become a kind of cult for some, who refuse to accept any explanation unless their understanding of Science supports it. I have not seen any Science which disproved the authenticity of either the Shroud of Turin or the visions cited. That does not mean the Shroud and Vision are thereby proved, just that the honest position of the Scientist should be that they do not know.

That leaves the individual to use Reason and personal standards. For my part, it makes no sense to call either of those a Satanic trick, as each has led many people to believe in Christ and accept Him as Lord, which serves God.

I am also aware of Scriptural accounts of power transfer. Remember that when Moses came down from meeting with God on Mt. Sinai, he shone with a power that the Hebrews could not bear to be near. Elijah held healing power to such degree, that after his death contact with his bones could heal. The woman who bled for years was healed by just a touch of Jesus' robe. So to me, it's completely reasonable that the Resurrection event would include a signal of power that left evidence on the Shroud.

As for Guadalupe, it's important to know the details. We know from the Old Testament that God sometimes granted visions to believers, to help their faith and reward their perseverance. So long as what was told is consistent with Scripture and the Gospel, I can accept this as a matter of God's Mercy.

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To be clear since sometimes the title gets misunderstood, it is not a vision. It is the tilma.

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Elucidate, please.

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The tilma

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Yes, the 'tilma'.

Please explain what that word is, and how it matters in this discussion.

Thank you.

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It is what the image is on. Google is your friend.

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You wanna use an unusual word, it's on you to explain yourself.

And it should be clear that when I mentioned Vision, I was talking about Guadalupe. The Shroud is right there to be tested and considered, we only have indirect accounts about the Vision at Guadalupe.

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Thats on you to educate yourself if you're curious. I'm not speaking of a vision at Guadalupe. Dont be lazy.

It's only an odd word to those that are not learned on the topic.

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I clearly referenced the Shroud and the Vision. You are the one who confused yourself.

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Youre the only one here speaking of a vision. Feel free to start a thread on that. This thread is not about a vision. Not confused in the least. As always.

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The Lady of Guadalupe was, if not a vision, what then?

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https://guadalupeshrine.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/our-lady-guadalupe-image-infographic-english.pdf

Highly recommend anyone to Go See it at the Basilica in Mexico City

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Thanks. I would have to learn more about the tests done to confirm the claims, most of what I saw on the pdf was essentially a semantic argument, but will check it out.

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Many fascinating things have been documented with todays technology on this 500+ year old relic

With regards to these two artifacts, I go back to the description of John's Gospel of that first Pascha morning.

3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. 4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the [a]handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed.

1. Two disciples ran to the tomb.
2. The other disciple got there first, looked in from the outside, but didn't go in. This allowed him to verify the fact that the stone had been rolled away, the tomb did not contain a body, and the gravecloth (probably the shroud) laying there. Probably couldn't make out what was on it from outside. But the full image on the shroud isn't 100% clear unless viewed as a photographic negative.
3. Peter gets there, goes in, and sees the gravecloth and the facecloth not lying with the gravecloth but folded and neatly set aside. He verifies the images, particularly the one on the facecloth that is 100% clear.
4. The other disciple then goes in, sees both, and believes.

5. I would also add that the idea of "an image made without hands" goes back in time to the very beginnings of our faith. Eusebius records that this was taken from Jerusalem to Edessa by Thaddeus (one of the 70), with later historians recording that it was taken from Edessa to Constantinople. Here it was known as the Mandylion, and carried by Byzantine armies like the Ark of the Covenant. In fact, modern Russian military units often fly a flag derived from the Mandylion.



Then there is a gap. Its presence in Rome is first recorded 1207 with its first procession. My strong suspicion is that this is one of the artifacts looted from Constantinople during the fourth crusade (1202-1204). It was "lost" during the sack of Rome in 1527 (this is when I think it was taken to Manopello). In 1629, Pope Urban VIII not only prohibited reproductions of the Veronica from being made, but also ordered the destruction of all existing copies. His edict declared that anyone who had access to a copy must bring it to the Vatican, under penalty of excommunication. So while broad knowledge of the true image was not lost in the Orthodox world, it was lost in the west.

The gravecloth:



The facecloth:



Comparing the gravecloth to the facecloth:

Fre3dombear said:

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BearWithMe said:

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I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

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I will be sharing much here in this thread for consideration. I ask everyone to Keep An open mind and I will try to make a fact based and reasoned defense for their authenticity

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It would also appreciate a scriptural defense of your positions. Thanks.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BearWithMe said:

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I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

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I will be sharing much here in this thread for consideration. I ask everyone to Keep An open mind and I will try to make a fact based and reasoned defense for their authenticity

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It would also appreciate a scriptural defense of your positions. Thanks.

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Ok, that is part of the issue since the Reformation. If ONLY scriptural evidence as you define it counts, it is not going to meet your scrutiny. GUARENTEED.

We are talking about the scientific evidence and probability on this. Not scriptural evidence. This has been an interesting discussion, I fear it is going to sink into the same biblical rants we get anytime we try to discuss something.

Catholics believe Scripture AND Tradition, so those of us that are Catholic will have a different view.

FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BearWithMe said:

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I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

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I will be sharing much here in this thread for consideration. I ask everyone to Keep An open mind and I will try to make a fact based and reasoned defense for their authenticity

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It would also appreciate a scriptural defense of your positions. Thanks.

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Ok, that is part of the issue since the Reformation. If ONLY scriptural evidence as you define it counts, it is not going to meet your scrutiny. GUARENTEED.

We are talking about the scientific evidence and probability on this. Not scriptural evidence. This has been an interesting discussion, I fear it is going to sink into the same biblical rants we get anytime we try to discuss something.

Catholics believe Scripture AND Tradition, so those of us that are Catholic will have a different view.

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I think the scientific evidence is pretty clear and makes for an interesting discussion.

As for scriptural support, if the poster has one he can just state as such. If it's scripture and tradition, as you say, the first prong I think would be pretty important, even to Catholics.

I just want to actually finish one of these discussions without Tarp coming in and arguing the Greek use of the word for "this" from 2000 years ago or something similar.

The shroud was fake to me until test showed it is like a photograph or an xray was taken leaving a trace image that isnt soaked in like paint or ink.

It doesnt make or break my faith either way. It tests against the Word as something that brings people to Jesus and his church

I cannot comment on the tilma except that I have no belief in it and when testing against the Word, it can bring people to the wrong conclusion.

I agree. It was caused by a release of energy. That is my understanding.

FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BearWithMe said:

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I personally have not heard of the Lady of the Guadalupe before, so I won't comment but I'll check it out.

Regarding the shroud, I think it's most likely a forgery for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting how we still don't really understand how it was created (if it was indeed a forgery).

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I will be sharing much here in this thread for consideration. I ask everyone to Keep An open mind and I will try to make a fact based and reasoned defense for their authenticity

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It would also appreciate a scriptural defense of your positions. Thanks.

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Ok, that is part of the issue since the Reformation. If ONLY scriptural evidence as you define it counts, it is not going to meet your scrutiny. GUARENTEED.

We are talking about the scientific evidence and probability on this. Not scriptural evidence. This has been an interesting discussion, I fear it is going to sink into the same biblical rants we get anytime we try to discuss something.

Catholics believe Scripture AND Tradition, so those of us that are Catholic will have a different view.

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Except you neither believe in Scripture nor your own Tradition. It never ceases to amaze me how vehemently you defend the Church that you don't even believe in. I suspect there are many like this in RC. It is more about tribe over truth for many of the RC's I've interacted with here.

Here we go...

Can't we just talk about a subject without this stuff?

FLBear5630 said:

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Here we go...

Can't we just talk about a subject without this stuff?

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Some folks want to learn.

Some folks want to chat.

Some folks want to persuade.

And some want to crush any opposition.


Same here as anywhere else.

Yeah, I come here to have discussions on subjects I don't get to talk about. It has gotten very adversarial.