D. C. Bear said:
Jinx 2 said:
cms186 said:
Coke Bear said:
cms186 said:
This isnt about Religion, surely you're capable of making up your own mind without being told what to think by the Church? Also, a Fertilised egg cant become a Person on its own, it needs the womb of its Mother to grow in.
cms186 - I agree with you concerning the ability to discuss the abortion subject without using religion. I am happy to discuss the topic using only logic and reason.
Having said that, I do appreciate that you've remained in conversation about this difficult topic even when no one appears to be on your side.
You did state that you are not in favor of Late-Term abortions. That's great. The reason why some here have asked you why is because they want your reasoning or rationale for the 3rd trimester only vs. earlier in term.
Some people choose viability or recognizable characteristics for this point to demarcation. Others, who consider themselves Pro-Life, choose conception because scientifically, that's when life begins.
I could type two posts worth of refutations to the pro-choice arguments, but that would fall under the TLR category.
I am happy to discuss any of the specific points about this topic.
I'll offer to you, like I did to all in the other post a copy of a book called Persuasive Pro-Life: How to Talk About Our Culture's Toughest Issue by Trent Horn. It answers most of the common objections that you and others have about the topic.
I appreciate the reasoned debate, people cant agree on everything and Abortion is certainly a divisive subject, I appreciate other peoples points of View, im not ignorant of why they feel that way
I'm on his side.
Women should be free to choose whether or not to end a pregnancy.
Period.
Under this scenario, those who agree with the entirely religious view that a fertilized egg and early-stage fetus are a fully formed human being whose rights supercede those of the mother the instant conception occurs are free to choose to continue with any pregnancy, as their beliefs dictate. If you believe that there is a benevolent God in control of the universe and also believe that everything that happens is part of His plan, your choice not to have an abortion if you become pregnant unexpectedly may be dictated by those beliefs. (Although my experience at Baylor in the 1970s was that women quietly made a choice to have an abortion to avoid the very public shame of a pregnancy out of wedlock.)
Women who are not religious and who believe we are one biological organism among many--but one with a tremendous talent for adaptation and self-determination--may or may not choose abortion if an unplanned pregnancy occurs. They may choose to view the pregnancy as a gift. They may choose to end the pregnancy. Either choice fits with their beliefs, and they should be free to make that choice for themselves.
Whatever you believe, in a country that touts both separation of church and state AND freedom of religion/freedom from religion, this very personal choice, which has lasting physical consequences for women, should be up to the woman.
As it currently is under national law--with the result that the religious right has very successfully eliminated access to abortion services wherever that was possible.
Bottom line: A belief that the life of a fertilized egg or an early-stage fetus is fully human and that its rights should supercede the rights of the pregnant woman is based on a religious belief in the sanctity of human life--and only human life. We eat animals; we spay and neuter them; we breed them selectedly; we do scientific experiments on them; we do all sorts of things that are considered heinous when done to humans. Human life is the only life several religions--especially Christianity, Judaism and Islam, which have a common root--truly value above all other life.
I am beginning to wish with all my heart and soul that other religions--those that recognize that the quality and continuance of human life depend on the qualiy and continuance of the animals and plants we share our planet with--had been dominant.
Bottom line: you have expressed you opinion that a woman should have the right to kill her unborn offspring at any time during pregnancy and under any circumstances, that society has no interest whatsoever in protecting unborn human offspring. That is a pretty radical view and well outside the mainstream of even the "pro choice" side of the issue. You support the right to kill unborn human offspring at 41 weeks gestation should delivery be late. That's just flat out evil.
That is not what I said.
Any woman who remains pregnant beyond the time the fetus is viable has signed on for the duration, IMO.
I'll leave it to medical professionals to argue where that "viability line" is--but I think most people agree that it's before 20 weeks.
You want this to be a "one extreme or the other" argument, but the fetus develops rapidly over a 9-month period.
That has been exploited by "pregnancy crisis centers" that string women who want abortions along until it's too late. So, if we're on opposite sides, the "too late for abortion" issue is something your "side" of this fight is very much aware of.
What I am saying is that women who discover they are pregnant early enough so that abortion is a medically safe option for them should have the right to choose that option.
That is ALL I am saying.
I also have serious concerns about the implications for women's health if women do not have this option. I've known people who have discovered their baby would die at or shortly before birth because of a defect. One family chose to go through with the birth and held the baby for 5 minutes until she died. Another family chose to end the pregnancy; the woman was in her late 30s and truly wanted a baby. A delay of months made that less likely, so that was the basis of their decision.
I've also known many women who have suffered numerous miscarriages. That's heartbreaking in and of itself, but the possibility of criminal charges due to extremely strict abortion prohibitions really concerns me. That is happening in some central American countries.
As for evil, I think it's truly evil for anyone to presume to make such a personal decision for someone else. We give people freedom to commit lots of sins and do things deleterious to their health--drink too much, smoke cigarettes, own an unlimited number of firearms that include assault-style weapons and keep them around the house and carry them everywhere, We're very sanguine when those choices result in death--either of the person who made bad choices or innocent victims. But oh-my-God, if a woman dare make a choice regarding an unwanted pregnancy for whatever reason, it's evil. During at least the first 4 months of pregnancy and possibly the first five, I don't think it's evil--and I think a world in which women control their own bodies rather than being forced to cede that control to their state or federal government the instant an egg is fertilized--or even before, if they are raped and end up in a Catholic E.R.--is a better place for everyone to grow up in. Especially girls.