Why what?

1947 clearly has a problem beliving the bible

Waco1947 said:

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ScottS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ScottS said:

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1947 I believe the bible

Now answer my question

---

That's a silly answer to a logic question.

---

Its not silly at all. The bible clearly outlines hell and the way to avoid going there. You seem to have a problem with the bible's definition of the way to get there and if God really would send someone there. I think you said it would be cruel all the while you ignore the cruelness of someone rejecting God.

---

"The Bible clearly outline hell and the way.there."
The Bible also clearly says God is all knowing.
Thinking people put these two notions together and say "Why would God create a person that God knows is going to Hell?

---

That's a linear time analysis and God is not subject to linear time.

I believe the Bible. I don't believe in your doctrine nor your theism. There's a huge difference

ScottS said:

---

1947 I believe the bible

Now answer my question

---

Uhhh, no..no you don't.

Waco1947 said:

---

I believe the Bible. I don't believe in your doctrine nor your theism. There's a huge difference

---

Clearly there is a massive difference between what you believe and what I believe.

ScottS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

I believe the Bible. I don't believe in your doctrine nor your theism. There's a huge difference

---

Clearly there is a massive difference between what you believe and what I believe.

---

Massive indeed.

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

Bearaz?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Since Waco has not answered for a while, and I want to believe he means well, I am posting what I believe he meant by his earlier post, and my thoughts on that perspective.

One of the most difficult doctrines for Christians to consider is the existence of hell. Christ was the embodiment of forgiveness and patience, so it seems wrong to some people to believe that there is a place of unending torment for those who reject Christ. Some people focus on the promise that Christ will rule all creation when He returns, and extend that to a belief in universal salvation, that all humanity will be saved.

Personally, I like the notion, since it denies evil even a single victory of God, but Scripture is plain that hell exists and is a terrible end for some. Here are some of Jesus' warnings about hell:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' Matthew 25:41

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:18

Also, there are detailed descriptions in other books of the Bible which make plain that hell is an awful place of torment and punishment. If we accept Scripture as true, we must accept that hell exists. I think that Waco has chosen to believe some parts of Scripture, but has rejected others, a dangerous practice which has led many well-meaning people into serious error.

Waco also seems to reject the notion of free will. If God is omniscient, yet allows a person to sin, that in Waco's opinion (as I read it) makes God culpable for our sin, so Waco rejects both the notion of free will and of God's absolute knowledge and power. Waco falls prey to the false contention that God may be all-powerful or perfectly good, but not both. Waco fails to understand that his assumption falsely limits God to human conditions.

To correct the error, I would start by using the analogy of school. While people have different aptitudes for learning and a range of teacher quality, within each classroom the students have the same opportunity to learn the subject. Over the term each student makes a series of decisions about attendance, paying attention in class, doing assignments and homework, and studying for tests. Each student has a lot of control over how well he or she will do in the class, and the final grade is a result of the decisions made by the student throughout the term. Some students blame the teacher without real cause, some blame the school, and some blame the subject, but in the end each student is largely responsible for his or her final grade, according to the work each student put into the class. Some students receive praise and awards for their work, while poor students are embarrassed by their results and some receive penalties such as failing grades or having to repeat a class. Behavioral punishments could include detention, suspension, or expulsion in extreme cases, again due to the student's personal behavior choices.

Or consider the analogy of employment. While there are elements to your personal situation you cannot control, you generally can influence your career path through effort and attitude. Hard work and supporting your team gets you rewards, while a poor attitude and shoddy work can get you fired.

Throughout life, we see that while there are many things outside your control, you still have a lot of control of your outcomes, due to your attitude and effort. Free will is therefore readily apparent to some degree. It is therefore equally obvious that while there are things God controls that we cannot have a say in, we also receive the fruits of our work and character from God, according to our own will.

Since God is good, He offers us His gifts but will not force them upon us. When someone despises God, and there are indeed such people, God does not compel them to suffer His presence, but allows them their will and chosen outcome. God sends messages to such people to warn them of their course and consequence, but if they commit to their own damnation they have made their choice and God allows them their resolution.

---

Gonna answer, Waco?

I have answered. If God is all good (or grace) then we all go to heaven. If God is all knowing and love God would not be so cruel as to create Elaine to punish her eternally.

Waco1947 said:

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I have answered. If God is all good (or grace) then we all go to heaven. If God is all knowing and love God would not be so cruel as to create Elaine to punish her eternally.

---

No, you have ducked and dodged.

You certainly have not answered.

Devenish took his own crack at explaining Ogden's work:

"Among his important contributions to Christian theology is the recognition that what is Christian and what is true are independent of each other," he said. "There's a historical judgment about what is accurately Christian and then there is a philosophical judgment about what is true. Something being Christian does not make it true, and something being true does not make it Christian, and Christian theology is responsible for both judgments."
Schubert Ogden
What is true?
What is Christian?
Is it true God is all knowing?

So Waco refuses to answer in substance.

Sadly predictable.

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ScottS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ScottS said:

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1947 I believe the bible

Now answer my question

---

That's a silly answer to a logic question.

---

Its not silly at all. The bible clearly outlines hell and the way to avoid going there. You seem to have a problem with the bible's definition of the way to get there and if God really would send someone there. I think you said it would be cruel all the while you ignore the cruelness of someone rejecting God.

---

"The Bible clearly outline hell and the way.there."
The Bible also clearly says God is all knowing.
Thinking people put these two notions together and say "Why would God create a person that God knows is going to Hell?

---

That's a linear time analysis and God is not subject to linear time.

---

Linear time analysis? Yes it is. It is reality and the area of God's action.
Elaine lives and dies in that linear reality. God may not be subject to time but God Sure created Elaine and us to live here the linear. So God is cruel to create people for eternal damnation.

Show your proof that God created people for eternal damnation.

My experience is that damnation is due to human sin, like you falsely blaming God as you do here.

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

Waco1947 said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

"The creation of man whom God in His foreknowledge knew doomed to sin was the awful index of God's omnipotence. For it would have been a thing of trifling and contemptible ease for Perfection to create mere perfection. To do so would, to speak truth, be not creation but extension. Separateness is identity and the only way for God to create, truly create, man was to make him separate from God Himself, and to be separate from God is to be sinful. The creation of evil is therefore the index of God's glory and His power. That had to be so that the creation of good might be the index of man's glory and power. But by God's help. By His help and in His wisdom."
Robert Penn Warren from All The King's Men

---

So God is cruel? God creates human so they can go to hell and God knows it? That's not God that's a monster. Why a monster? "God created evil as the index?" So what? God creates humans knowing full well that they fail?
Now God is love - 100% love and grace. How can such of goodness and grace a God create evil?
I believe God created Elaine knowing she would sin but in the end God would save her.

---

So you believe the "All Dogs Go to Heaven" theology. Yeah.... nothing heretical there.

Forest Bueller said:

---

Really time to stop engaging 47, he drops this subject about once a week and isn't doing it to learn, he is doing it to lecture.

Anybody coming out of unbelief into faith in Jesus, simply needs to run from his foolishness, there is nothing to be learned or gained, and his teachings if believed, certainly erodes authentic faith.

---

Exactly! He is the anti-evangelist... trying to turn people away from Christ and away from a loving Father. Pretty sick stuff.

ShooterTX said:

---

Forest Bueller said:

---

Really time to stop engaging 47, he drops this subject about once a week and isn't doing it to learn, he is doing it to lecture.

Anybody coming out of unbelief into faith in Jesus, simply needs to run from his foolishness, there is nothing to be learned or gained, and his teachings if believed, certainly erodes authentic faith.

---

Exactly! He is the anti-evangelist... trying to turn people away from Christ and away from a loving Father. Pretty sick stuff.

---

It's amazing how angry some people can get if you try to take away their angry God.

Waco1947 said:

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ShooterTX said:

---

Forest Bueller said:

---

Really time to stop engaging 47, he drops this subject about once a week and isn't doing it to learn, he is doing it to lecture.

Anybody coming out of unbelief into faith in Jesus, simply needs to run from his foolishness, there is nothing to be learned or gained, and his teachings if believed, certainly erodes authentic faith.

---

Exactly! He is the anti-evangelist... trying to turn people away from Christ and away from a loving Father. Pretty sick stuff.

---

It's amazing how angry some people can get if you try to take away their angry God.

---

Dude, you're the only one here claiming God wants people to go to hell.

Are you talking about yourself, then?

Waco1947 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Forest Bueller said:

---

Really time to stop engaging 47, he drops this subject about once a week and isn't doing it to learn, he is doing it to lecture.

Anybody coming out of unbelief into faith in Jesus, simply needs to run from his foolishness, there is nothing to be learned or gained, and his teachings if believed, certainly erodes authentic faith.

---

Exactly! He is the anti-evangelist... trying to turn people away from Christ and away from a loving Father. Pretty sick stuff.

---

It's amazing how angry some people can get if you try to take away their angry God.

---

Meanwhile, your god is yourself... and yet you claim to be a Christian minister??

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Forest Bueller said:

---

Really time to stop engaging 47, he drops this subject about once a week and isn't doing it to learn, he is doing it to lecture.

Anybody coming out of unbelief into faith in Jesus, simply needs to run from his foolishness, there is nothing to be learned or gained, and his teachings if believed, certainly erodes authentic faith.

---

Exactly! He is the anti-evangelist... trying to turn people away from Christ and away from a loving Father. Pretty sick stuff.

---

It's amazing how angry some people can get if you try to take away their angry God.

---

Dude, you're the only one here claiming God wants people to go to hell.

Are you talking about yourself, then?

---

You are not reading my argument. I said the implication of your theology of an all knowing God who creates Elaine knows at the moment of her birth her whole future. God knows she will reject Christ and according to your theology she will go to hell.
Why be so cruel to create a creature that you will punish?
Look I don't believe in your hell but this argument is about the implications of two conflicting doctrines held by conservatives - all knowing God and an eternal life in your cruel hell.
This ain't anout my theology bit about the implications of yours.

1947 doesn't believe in hell.....and he doesn't believe the bible.

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Forest Bueller said:

---

Really time to stop engaging 47, he drops this subject about once a week and isn't doing it to learn, he is doing it to lecture.

Anybody coming out of unbelief into faith in Jesus, simply needs to run from his foolishness, there is nothing to be learned or gained, and his teachings if believed, certainly erodes authentic faith.

---

Exactly! He is the anti-evangelist... trying to turn people away from Christ and away from a loving Father. Pretty sick stuff.

---

It's amazing how angry some people can get if you try to take away their angry God.

---

Dude, you're the only one here claiming God wants people to go to hell.

Are you talking about yourself, then?

---

You are not reading my argument. I said the implication of your theology of an all knowing God who creates Elaine knows at the moment of her birth her whole future. God knows she will reject Christ and according to your theology she will go to hell.
Why be so cruel to create a creature that you will punish?
Look I don't believe in your hell but this argument is about the implications of two conflicting doctrines held by conservatives - all knowing God and an eternal life in your cruel hell.
This ain't anout my theology bit about the implications of yours.

---

So many words to admit you were angry but confused.

Try this, Waco.

Suppose there are two composers. One will create music all his life, hundreds maybe thousands of pieces of music.

The other is more limited, less disciplined and inclined to give up when things get hard. But that second composer will still create 5 or 6 good works of music.

Would you say it is "cruel" for that second composer to be allowed to compose music, even if 5 or 6 works of music is all that composer will complete?

Is nothing better than a little good?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Try this, Waco.

Suppose there are two composers. One will create music all his life, hundreds maybe thousands of pieces of music.

The other is more limited, less disciplined and inclined to give up when things get hard. But that second composer will still create 5 or 6 good works of music.

Would you say it is "cruel" for that second composer to be allowed to compose music, even if 5 or 6 works of music is all that composer will complete?

Is nothing better than a little good?

---

Of course there is also the old reply "What is the point of Jesus dying on the cross, if everyone gets to heaven anyway? Why accept Christ if it is unnecessary?"

If you really follow the "logic" of Waco1947, it will eventually lead you into heresy or atheism. It is an ungodly, and anti-Christ way of thinking.

ShooterTX said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Try this, Waco.

Suppose there are two composers. One will create music all his life, hundreds maybe thousands of pieces of music.

The other is more limited, less disciplined and inclined to give up when things get hard. But that second composer will still create 5 or 6 good works of music.

Would you say it is "cruel" for that second composer to be allowed to compose music, even if 5 or 6 works of music is all that composer will complete?

Is nothing better than a little good?

---

Of course there is also the old reply "What is the point of Jesus dying on the cross, if everyone gets to heaven anyway? Why accept Christ if it is unnecessary?"

If you really follow the "logic" of Waco1947, it will eventually lead you into heresy or atheism. It is an ungodly, and anti-Christ way of thinking.

---

I'm hoping Waco will be a little curious, and we can discuss how the Bible explains these things.

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

Is all sin the same? If someone does something terrible like beat up an elderly woman and steal her money. Does that person deserve to go into heaven if he truly repents and accepts Jesus over someone who never did anything like that but doesn't believe in God?

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

Is all sin the same? If someone does something terrible like beat up an elderly woman and steal her money. Does that person deserve to go into heaven if he truly repents and accepts Jesus over someone who never did anything like that but doesn't believe in God?

---

The problem, Ubby, is that sin lives in our hearts. There are sins we all agree are evil, but some sins are not even visible. Suppose the person who never resorted to physical violence was someone whose sins seemed smaller, like the guy who lied to stay out of trouble ... but never realized his lie got someone else fired for what he did. Or the man who cut someone off in traffic because he was in a hurry ... and never realized that the person he cut off was running late for work, and tried to make up the time by speeding, and got into a fatal accident as a result.

We like to think we're basically good people, and only do 'little' things wrong. But we don't always think about the real cost of what we do. How many times have we decided not to stop and help when we saw an accident? How many of us really stop to think about how we speak to someone, consider whether we are helping or hurting someone in the way we speak and act?

No wrong is small. We all need guidance and growth.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ScottS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ScottS said:

---

1947 I believe the bible

Now answer my question

---

That's a silly answer to a logic question.

---

Its not silly at all. The bible clearly outlines hell and the way to avoid going there. You seem to have a problem with the bible's definition of the way to get there and if God really would send someone there. I think you said it would be cruel all the while you ignore the cruelness of someone rejecting God.

---

"The Bible clearly outline hell and the way.there."
The Bible also clearly says God is all knowing.
Thinking people put these two notions together and say "Why would God create a person that God knows is going to Hell?

---

That's a linear time analysis and God is not subject to linear time.

---

Linear time analysis? Yes it is. It is reality and the area of God's action.
Elaine lives and dies in that linear reality. God may not be subject to time but God Sure created Elaine and us to live here the linear. So God is cruel to create people for eternal damnation.

---

Once again: Elaine exists in linear time. God does not.

No one is created for eternal damnation. Elaine has free will to believe or not, and her choice determines her destiny.

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

If you, not being omniscient, have a good how your child will react given a set of circumstances and the child reacts in just that way, have you taken away their free will? The father is not responsible for the prodigal's choices.

Or perhaps you're just a childless episcopalian heretic.

we're a pygmy race on a pygmy planet orbiting a pygmy sun in a pygmy part of an infinite universe.

no one cares - we'll either find a way thru the next million years - or we won't.

most astrophysicists say we are at a 1 on a 5 scale.

looooooooooong way to go. and most of the quadrillion other planets with similar life as us on our stage to development didnt make it.

- BUmma

so - go grab an iced tea, enjoy the sunset and hug your dog.

maybe grill some hamburgers.

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

Is all sin the same? If someone does something terrible like beat up an elderly woman and steal her money. Does that person deserve to go into heaven if he truly repents and accepts Jesus over someone who never did anything like that but doesn't believe in God?

---

All sin is not the same. But any sin results in the separation from a perfect Creator. And any and all sin is forgivable through repentance and acceptance of Christ's propitiatory work on the cross.