bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

God also knew Elaine would reject Christ the moment she was born. Why create her?

ScottS said:

---

1947 doesn't believe in hell.....and he doesn't believe the bible.

---

I believe in Hell . I don't believe in your doctrine nor your theism. There's a huge difference

Waco1947 said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

God also knew Elaine would reject Christ the moment she was born. Why create her?

---

I've already answered that. Because free will is the only thing that makes love and real relationship possible. Some exercise that free will in opposition to Him. His foreknowledge of that rejection isn't/wasn't enough for him to scrap the plan of Creation. Love and relationship is worth the cost to Him of having some of His creatures reject him.

You might ask, then why not just blanket forgive everyone and have them reside with Him? First, because that isn't Love. He isn't forcing anyone to choose him. Elaine chose separation of her own accord, and God has let her have her way. Second, because in addition to being perfectly Loving, God is also perfectly Just. It would be an affront to his perfection to unjustly usher someone who has rejected him into heaven. Elaine is justifiably in separation from Him.

It sounds like you're asking "So why not use His foreknowledge of who would reject Him, and just undo His creation of them in the first place?" That seems like a silly question, but I'm sure you can ask Him. Having no consequence for moral agency is logically absurd.

Waco1947 said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

God also knew Elaine would reject Christ the moment she was born. Why create her?

---

You're still incorrectly applying linear time to God. Elaine has free will. She was not predestined to reject Christ from the moment she was born. When she receives Heaven or Hell, according to her choice, she will look back and realize that it was ever so. There is a passage from C.S. Lewis, I believe in The Great Divorce but possibly the Screwtape Letters, explaining how the soul looks back after its choice comes to fruition.

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

God also knew Elaine would reject Christ the moment she was born. Why create her?

---

You're still incorrectly applying linear time to God. Elaine has free will. She was not predestined to reject Christ from the moment she was born. When she receives Heaven or Hell, according to her choice, she will look back and realize that it was ever so. There is a passage from C.S. Lewis, I believe in The Great Divorce but possibly the Screwtape Letters, explaining how the soul looks back after its choice comes to fruition.

---

Who said "predestined?" I said God "knows" not chose. If a loving God "knows " the outcome for Elaine "Why create her at all?"

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

God also knew Elaine would reject Christ the moment she was born. Why create her?

---

You're still incorrectly applying linear time to God. Elaine has free will. She was not predestined to reject Christ from the moment she was born. When she receives Heaven or Hell, according to her choice, she will look back and realize that it was ever so. There is a passage from C.S. Lewis, I believe in The Great Divorce but possibly the Screwtape Letters, explaining how the soul looks back after its choice comes to fruition.

---

This reminds me of marriage in a way. There are some couples you realize will be together a long time, even when they have just started their marriage, and there are some where you see trouble and recognize the marriage will be difficult and likely fail. The success or failure of the marriage is not predetermined, but there are signs in behavior that hint at whether the couple will do what is necessary for their marriage to be strong and have deep roots. Every good relationship requires commitment, be it marriage, a real friendship (not just someone to pal around with), business or any undertaking of significance. That commitment is a choice, made every day and with consequences according to our free will and effort.

While we are saved through the grace of God, our choice is real.

Waco1947 said:

---

ScottS said:

---

1947 doesn't believe in hell.....and he doesn't believe the bible.

---

I believe in Hell . I don't believe in your doctrine nor your theism. There's a huge difference

---

BS you don't believe in hell. This thread proves it

ScottS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ScottS said:

---

1947 doesn't believe in hell.....and he doesn't believe the bible.

---

I believe in Hell . I don't believe in your doctrine nor your theism. There's a huge difference

---

BS you don't believe in hell. This thread proves it

---

It's separation from God.

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

Is all sin the same? If someone does something terrible like beat up an elderly woman and steal her money. Does that person deserve to go into heaven if he truly repents and accepts Jesus over someone who never did anything like that but doesn't believe in God?

---

All sin is not the same. But any sin results in the separation from a perfect Creator. And any and all sin is forgivable through repentance and acceptance of Christ's propitiatory work on the cross.

---

I guess my question is more about why someone deserves to go to heaven or hell. Why would he create a scenario where people who do terrible things have a chance to get into heaven? Why would he allow someone who doesn't cause any significant trouble but doesn't believe in him to have eternal agony? It seems very petty to me. Why couldn't he create another realm besides heaven and hell for people who don't believe in him and don't cause harm to anyone to go about the rest of their existence in peace after they die?

It doesn't seem like the most well thought out or productive way to go about things to me.

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

Is all sin the same? If someone does something terrible like beat up an elderly woman and steal her money. Does that person deserve to go into heaven if he truly repents and accepts Jesus over someone who never did anything like that but doesn't believe in God?

---

All sin is not the same. But any sin results in the separation from a perfect Creator. And any and all sin is forgivable through repentance and acceptance of Christ's propitiatory work on the cross.

---

I guess my question is more about why someone deserves to go to heaven or hell. Why would he create a scenario where people who do terrible things have a chance to get into heaven? Why would he allow someone who doesn't cause any significant trouble but doesn't believe in him to have eternal agony? It seems very petty to me. Why couldn't he create another realm besides heaven and hell for people who don't believe in him and don't cause harm to anyone to go about the rest of their existence in peace after they die?

It doesn't seem like the most well thought out or productive way to go about things to me.

---

I think the problem starts by talking about what we deserve.

The false notions are that most people are good, and good people deserve heaven.

That's not what this is about.

An analogy I would offer is flight school. When I was young and first wanted a pilot's license, I figured all I had to do was learn how to drive planes in the air and boom, instant pilot. But the truth is, there's a lot to do before that, starting with understanding how planes work and how to check your aircraft before you fly, because if you discover a problem at 8,000 feet you are in big trouble. Much better to know how to do a re-flight check and a proper walkaround.

The notions of heaven and hell grow out of the basic notion that we live beyond this material life. And just as an adult needs to know a lot more than a child needs to know, we need to be ready for the greater life. We all generally understand that things like money and ego get way more attention in this life than they should, so we teach our kids to be generous, honest and humble ... even as we ourselves tend to screw up being generous, honest and humble ourselves.

That's part of what Jesus and all the prophets and proper servants of God have said all along - we screw things up, a lot, and none of us is able to walk up to God and tell Him we have earned heaven.

What's more, heaven is where God lives, and if you stop and think about it, the idea of living with God would be terrifying for us, since we don't come close to living by God's standards. For example, try going all day without lying even once, and that includes exaggerations or saying something which is true but taken out of context. Speaking for myself, I can't easily go one hour without tripping up on that one.

Fortunately, God offers us grace, and that grace takes many forms. Christianity matters not only because of Christ's sacrificial atonement for us, but also because we have a relationship with God through Christ which makes all good things possible.

I hope that makes sense.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

God also knew Elaine would reject Christ the moment she was born. Why create her?

---

You're still incorrectly applying linear time to God. Elaine has free will. She was not predestined to reject Christ from the moment she was born. When she receives Heaven or Hell, according to her choice, she will look back and realize that it was ever so. There is a passage from C.S. Lewis, I believe in The Great Divorce but possibly the Screwtape Letters, explaining how the soul looks back after its choice comes to fruition.

---

Who said "predestined?" I said God "knows" not chose. If a loving God "knows " the outcome for Elaine "Why create her at all?"

---

If the outcome is previously known, then it is necessarily predestined. That's where you are mistakenly applying linear time to God.

You keep using that word predestined"
We have a free will - Except Apparently God knows all our choices?!!??!
Who said "predestined?" I said God "knows" not chose. If a loving God "knows " the outcome for Elaine "Why create her at all?"
So it is linear? God knows Elaine is going to hell. Damn "petty" of God (Ubby says).

Waco1947 said:

---

You keep using that word predestined"
We have a free will - Except Apparently God knows all our choices?!!??!
Who said "predestined?" I said God "knows" not chose. If a loving God "knows " the outcome for Elaine "Why create her at all?"
So it is linear? God knows Elaine is going to hell. Damn "petty" of God (Ubby says).

---

If the outcome is previously known, then it is necessarily predestined. That's where you are mistakenly applying linear time to God.

That does make sense from a biblical perspective.

I don't agree with God's perspective but I think I understand it a little bit better now.

Waco1947 said:

---

You keep using that word predestined"
We have a free will - Except Apparently God knows all our choices?!!??!
Who said "predestined?" I said God "knows" not chose. If a loving God "knows " the outcome for Elaine "Why create her at all?"
So it is linear? God knows Elaine is going to hell. Damn "petty" of God (Ubby says).

---

Wow... you are so going to burn in Hell. You claim to be a pastor, and you believe this crap?? You realize that the only people whom Jesus got angry with were those who were blasphemers in the Temple of God.... that's you, Waco1947. You are just an outright blasphemer and false teacher. Your judgement is gonna really suck. I would feel bad for you, but you have willfully chosen this judgement for yourself. Really sad.

ShooterTX said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

You keep using that word predestined"
We have a free will - Except Apparently God knows all our choices?!!??!
Who said "predestined?" I said God "knows" not chose. If a loving God "knows " the outcome for Elaine "Why create her at all?"
So it is linear? God knows Elaine is going to hell. Damn "petty" of God (Ubby says).

---

Wow... you are so going to burn in Hell. You claim to be a pastor, and you believe this crap?? You realize that the only people whom Jesus got angry with were those who were blasphemers in the Temple of God.... that's you, Waco1947. You are just an outright blasphemer and false teacher. Your judgement is gonna really suck. I would feel bad for you, but you have willfully chosen this judgement for yourself. Really sad.

---

"Jesus was not brought down by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion, which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God's will from their own. Temple police are always a bad sign. When chaplains start wearing guns and hanging out at the sheriff's office, watch out. Someone is about to have no king but Caesar." Barbara Brown Taylor

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

UBBY said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?

---

Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.

---

Does God know all? Does he know what happens in the future?

Does not believing in God deserve eternal damnation? Especially if you have lived a prosperous, good life helping others?

---

God does know all.

God does know the outcome of all free, moral choices.

Sin necessitates separation from God. The imperfect cannot be in the presence of the perfect without making that place no longer perfect. God knew that by bestowing freewill and moral agency on his creatures it meant giving them the power to reject Him. Such rejection results in separation from Him. This was the cost of making true love and relationship possible (as opposed to having a bunch of robots). He obviously thought that worth the cost.

By the way, He also made a plain and easy way to have forgiveness and redemption from that sin, through Christ, which brings you back into right standing with him. I'd love to discuss that if you're interested.

---

Is all sin the same? If someone does something terrible like beat up an elderly woman and steal her money. Does that person deserve to go into heaven if he truly repents and accepts Jesus over someone who never did anything like that but doesn't believe in God?

---

All sin is not the same. But any sin results in the separation from a perfect Creator. And any and all sin is forgivable through repentance and acceptance of Christ's propitiatory work on the cross.

---

I guess my question is more about why someone deserves to go to heaven or hell. Why would he create a scenario where people who do terrible things have a chance to get into heaven? Why would he allow someone who doesn't cause any significant trouble but doesn't believe in him to have eternal agony? It seems very petty to me. Why couldn't he create another realm besides heaven and hell for people who don't believe in him and don't cause harm to anyone to go about the rest of their existence in peace after they die?

It doesn't seem like the most well thought out or productive way to go about things to me.

---

You seem to view heaven as a meritorious notion. The Christian view is very different. We are all separated from a perfect God by sin. Your example of person A who does "terrible things" and person B who doesn't sin "as much" is ultimately irrelevant to the question of salvation.

Look at it this way: God is on one side of the Grand Canyon, and we are on the other. If we're trying to "jump" across, it really doesn't matter how good of a long jumper a person ist. A 70 year old obese woman or Carl Lewis in his prime are both going to fall so short the difference is virtually immeasurable.

Luckily, God has provided a bridge. Some people will choose to walk across it and some people won't. The fact that the obese woman chooses to walk across and Carl Lewis doesn't isn't some indictment on the "fairness" of God. Because it has nothing to do with jumping ability. It has only to do with acknowledging we need the bridge and choosing to cross.

Waco1947 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

You keep using that word predestined"
We have a free will - Except Apparently God knows all our choices?!!??!
Who said "predestined?" I said God "knows" not chose. If a loving God "knows " the outcome for Elaine "Why create her at all?"
So it is linear? God knows Elaine is going to hell. Damn "petty" of God (Ubby says).

---

Wow... you are so going to burn in Hell. You claim to be a pastor, and you believe this crap?? You realize that the only people whom Jesus got angry with were those who were blasphemers in the Temple of God.... that's you, Waco1947. You are just an outright blasphemer and false teacher. Your judgement is gonna really suck. I would feel bad for you, but you have willfully chosen this judgement for yourself. Really sad.

---

"Jesus was not brought down by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion, which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God's will from their own. Temple police are always a bad sign. When chaplains start wearing guns and hanging out at the sheriff's office, watch out. Someone is about to have no king but Caesar." Barbara Brown Taylor

---

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. - Acts 20:28-30

16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. - 2 Peter 3:16-17


5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood. - 1 John 4:5-6


18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravityfor "people are slaves to whatever has mastered them." 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[a] and, "A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud." - 2 Peter 2:18-22



17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-19


You are a false teacher. You make up things and call them sin, such as white privilege and anti-abortion. Meanwhile you claim that the clear teachings of the Bible are not true. You deny the character of God, and you throw the most basic truths of the Gospel into doubt & confusion. You "entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error". You promise them freedom, but you instead entangle them back into lawless, sinful ways.
You attempt to contradict the Word of God by using quotes from regular people, as if some woman named Barbara has greater authority than the Holy Spirit or Jesus Himself.
You are a type of anti-Christ, in that you are trying to lead people away from Jesus and His teachings. You have supposedly studied the Bible, so you have no excuses. You have chosen your own intelligence and your own way. You have rejected the truth of the Bible because it hurts your feelings or it just doesn't make sense to you... and you seem to think that you know better. I have no pity for you. When challenged, you depend upon the words of regular people, rather than the Word of God. You have made your choice, and you will suffer the consequences of that choice.

To all of those who truly love Jesus.... it is not enough to simply ignore a false teacher like Waco1947. It is our duty as Christians to call him out and sound the alarm. He is here to try and lure the new believer away from the truth. He is here to try and take people away from Jesus, and back into darkness. We have to protect the new believers from these kinds of wolves. Don't grow weary of doing good.

Your duty? So you decide who God calls?
There is a theological world outside of Dallas Theological Seminary.
Even Truett knows that.

Waco1947 said:

---

Your duty? So you decide who God calls?
There is a theological world outside of Dallas Theological Seminary.
Even Truett knows that.

---

Kudos on one of the most epic troll jobs in the history of this site. I'm not sure yet which other poster you really are, but I have an idea. I must say, well played. Many on here thought for a while that you were an actual pastor.

Shooter said, ""To all of those who truly love Jesus.... it is not enough to simply ignore a false teacher like Waco1947. It is our duty as Christians to call him out and sound the alarm. He is here to try and lure the new believer away from the truth. He is here to try and take people away from Jesus, and back into darkness. We have to protect the new believers from these kinds of wolves. Don't grow weary of doing good."

"Jesus was not brought down by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion, which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God's will from their own. Temple police are always a bad sign. When chaplains start wearing guns and hanging out at the sheriff's office, watch out. Someone is about to have no king but Caesar." Barbara Brown Taylor
Gosh shooter is determined to shut me up. Bless his heart.
"Temple police are always a bad sign. When chaplains start wearing guns and hanging out at the sheriff's office, watch out. Someone is about to have no king but Caesar."
Shooter and on 83, bearass, et al are the Temple police.

Waco1947 said:

---

Shooter said, ""To all of those who truly love Jesus.... it is not enough to simply ignore a false teacher like Waco1947. It is our duty as Christians to call him out and sound the alarm. He is here to try and lure the new believer away from the truth. He is here to try and take people away from Jesus, and back into darkness. We have to protect the new believers from these kinds of wolves. Don't grow weary of doing good."

"Jesus was not brought down by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion, which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God's will from their own. Temple police are always a bad sign. When chaplains start wearing guns and hanging out at the sheriff's office, watch out. Someone is about to have no king but Caesar." Barbara Brown Taylor
Gosh shooter is determined to shut me up. Bless his heart.
"Temple police are always a bad sign. When chaplains start wearing guns and hanging out at the sheriff's office, watch out. Someone is about to have no king but Caesar."
Shooter and on 83, bearass, et al are the Temple police.

---

LOL

"Temple Police" - what a joke. I have never seen that phrase in the Bible, but then again... you don't read the Bible do you?

The Bible is very clear that we are to guard against false teachers like Waco1947. It is very clear that we are to protect the new believers from these false teachers. THAT is what I am calling all Christians to do. It is not about trying to silence you at all, but about rallying the faithful to speak out in the face of this evil crap you are spouting.

Of course you continue to rely on the words of modern theologians, while ignoring scripture... the true mark of a heretic. You rely on your own understanding, and deny the validity of scripture... textbook heretic.

You have read the truth. You claim to have studied the truth, and yet you reject the truth. You are a fool, and you have condemned yourself to a terrible judgement.

Your Bible is a bible of rules and doctrine.
To prove it. Tell me how you would convert me to Christ.

(PS Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.).

Waco1947 said:

---

Your Bible is a bible of rules and doctrine.
To prove it. Tell me how you would convert me to Christ.

(PS Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.).

---

And therein lies the problem. If Jesus was truly your Lord, then you would obey his commands. Instead, you refer to them as "rules and doctrine", and you insinuate that such things are beneath you.
You may have claimed salvation, but you cannot be truly saved if you reject Lordship. You have sadly rejected Lordship.
I cannot "convert" you, as you have already rejected the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. There is nothing I could say to you, to convince you of the truth. Perhaps, someday you will realize your mistake, and you will truly repent. In the meantime, you are just spreading lies about the character & nature of God. You reject truth, so why should I bother offering the same truth which you have already rejected. It is pointless to present the Gospel to people who have already rejected it. I reserve that time & effort for those who are truly seeking the truth, or at least are open to the truth.

ShooterTX said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Your Bible is a bible of rules and doctrine.
To prove it. Tell me how you would convert me to Christ.

(PS Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.).

---

And therein lies the problem. If Jesus was truly your Lord, then you would obey his commands. Instead, you refer to them as "rules and doctrine", and you insinuate that such things are beneath you.
You may have claimed salvation, but you cannot be truly saved if you reject Lordship. You have sadly rejected Lordship.
I cannot "convert" you, as you have already rejected the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. There is nothing I could say to you, to convince you of the truth. Perhaps, someday you will realize your mistake, and you will truly repent. In the meantime, you are just spreading lies about the character & nature of God. You reject truth, so why should I bother offering the same truth which you have already rejected. It is pointless to present the Gospel to people who have already rejected it. I reserve that time & effort for those who are truly seeking the truth, or at least are open to the truth.

---

Repent of what? God is love.
The first and great commandment is to love God, neighbor and self. Repent of those?

Waco1947 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Your Bible is a bible of rules and doctrine.
To prove it. Tell me how you would convert me to Christ.

(PS Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.).

---

And therein lies the problem. If Jesus was truly your Lord, then you would obey his commands. Instead, you refer to them as "rules and doctrine", and you insinuate that such things are beneath you.
You may have claimed salvation, but you cannot be truly saved if you reject Lordship. You have sadly rejected Lordship.
I cannot "convert" you, as you have already rejected the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. There is nothing I could say to you, to convince you of the truth. Perhaps, someday you will realize your mistake, and you will truly repent. In the meantime, you are just spreading lies about the character & nature of God. You reject truth, so why should I bother offering the same truth which you have already rejected. It is pointless to present the Gospel to people who have already rejected it. I reserve that time & effort for those who are truly seeking the truth, or at least are open to the truth.

---

Repent of what? God is love.
The first and great commandment is to love God, neighbor and self. Repent of those?

---

Maybe you should explain yourself and your theological stances, when faced with these words from your Lord & Savior.... then maybe you will understand how you need to repent.


17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-19



After you are done with this passage, let me know. I have quite a few others for you.

Read please
I am not orthodox nor fundamentalist nor conservative nor evangelical. I reject an old theism.
I "do" theology. I don't memorize doctrine to refute opponents. I appeal to ideas and theologies and cosmologies and reality as defined by physics, chemistry and biology.
I am an exegetical, existentialist and process theologian but not a purist on those beliefs.
I am a Christian Existentialist in the school of Paul Tillich;
An Exegetical Biblical in the school of Bultmann;
and a process theologian in the School of Alfred North Whitehead.
So here goes
Cosmology and Reality (Existentialism)
All we humans, have ever known in this life is this moment - now. We accumulate history but We move from the -
Has Been to the NOW to Not Yet.
But no sooner than we say "now" than it moves into the "has been" but the "not yet" is not yet BUT now as you read these words "not yet" becomes "now" and quickly the "has been."
We, humans, experience reality as the now moment but a changing moment as "time passing."
"Now" is all we have!

Every human born was, and is, will be born into this reality -including Biblical people and events and writers.

Process Reality and Theology - So what impinges on this now moment? Alfred Whitehead said that there are four grades of experience.
1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not. This was true in Bible times too.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inantimaye objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
If one chooses to argue with me one must begin with my premise - reality (Grades 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5) is as I describe it and all humans in time lived in this reality.
Waco1947
I start with reality and then go the Bible to support the reality of the nature of God as love.
I do not start with an unsupportable premise "God is all powerful." That belief is a personal revelation that no one can argue with because it's your revelation.
Secularist believes it is magical thinking. Grade 1 reality is real to them not magical, wish fulfilling God.
"God is all powerful" is a physics statement with 0 zero proof in science. Let that notion sink in. "God is all powerful" is a scientific physic statement by definition- it has the word "power" in it and that places it within science's purview. You can't win there.
If you truly want to reach a secularist then the reality of God as love is your best course.

Waco1947 said:

---

Read please
I am not orthodox nor fundamentalist nor conservative nor evangelical. I reject an old theism.
I "do" theology. I don't memorize doctrine to refute opponents. I appeal to ideas and theologies and cosmologies and reality as defined by physics, chemistry and biology.
I am an exegetical, existentialist and process theologian but not a purist on those beliefs.
I am a Christian Existentialist in the school of Paul Tillich;
An Exegetical Biblical in the school of Bultmann;
and a process theologian in the School of Alfred North Whitehead.
So here goes
Cosmology and Reality (Existentialism)
All we humans, have ever known in this life is this moment - now. We accumulate history but We move from the -
Has Been to the NOW to Not Yet.
But no sooner than we say "now" than it moves into the "has been" but the "not yet" is not yet BUT now as you read these words "not yet" becomes "now" and quickly the "has been."
We, humans, experience reality as the now moment but a changing moment as "time passing."
"Now" is all we have!

Every human born was, and is, will be born into this reality -including Biblical people and events and writers.

Process Reality and Theology - So what impinges on this now moment? Alfred Whitehead said that there are four grades of experience.
1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not. This was true in Bible times too.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inantimaye objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
If one chooses to argue with me one must begin with my premise - reality (Grades 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5) is as I describe it and all humans in time lived in this reality.
Waco1947
I start with reality and then go the Bible to support the reality of the nature of God as love.
I do not start with an unsupportable premise "God is all powerful." That belief is a personal revelation that no one can argue with because it's your revelation.
Secularist believes it is magical thinking. Grade 1 reality is real to them not magical, wish fulfilling God.
"God is all powerful" is a physics statement with 0 zero proof in science. Let that notion sink in. "God is all powerful" is a scientific physic statement by definition- it has the word "power" in it and that places it within science's purview. You can't win there.
If you truly want to reach a secularist then the reality of God as love is your best course.

---

Are you really a robot. Talk about binary thinking, you are the king.

Waco1947 said:

---

Read please
I am not orthodox nor fundamentalist nor conservative nor evangelical. I reject an old theism.
I "do" theology. I don't memorize doctrine to refute opponents. I appeal to ideas and theologies and cosmologies and reality as defined by physics, chemistry and biology.
I am an exegetical, existentialist and process theologian but not a purist on those beliefs.
I am a Christian Existentialist in the school of Paul Tillich;
An Exegetical Biblical in the school of Bultmann;
and a process theologian in the School of Alfred North Whitehead.
So here goes
Cosmology and Reality (Existentialism)
All we humans, have ever known in this life is this moment - now. We accumulate history but We move from the -
Has Been to the NOW to Not Yet.
But no sooner than we say "now" than it moves into the "has been" but the "not yet" is not yet BUT now as you read these words "not yet" becomes "now" and quickly the "has been."
We, humans, experience reality as the now moment but a changing moment as "time passing."
"Now" is all we have!

Every human born was, and is, will be born into this reality -including Biblical people and events and writers.

Process Reality and Theology - So what impinges on this now moment? Alfred Whitehead said that there are four grades of experience.
1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not. This was true in Bible times too.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inantimaye objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
If one chooses to argue with me one must begin with my premise - reality (Grades 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5) is as I describe it and all humans in time lived in this reality.
Waco1947
I start with reality and then go the Bible to support the reality of the nature of God as love.
I do not start with an unsupportable premise "God is all powerful." That belief is a personal revelation that no one can argue with because it's your revelation.
Secularist believes it is magical thinking. Grade 1 reality is real to them not magical, wish fulfilling God.
"God is all powerful" is a physics statement with 0 zero proof in science. Let that notion sink in. "God is all powerful" is a scientific physic statement by definition- it has the word "power" in it and that places it within science's purview. You can't win there.
If you truly want to reach a secularist then the reality of God as love is your best course.

---

So you are not a Christian... got it.

Forest Bueller said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Read please
I am not orthodox nor fundamentalist nor conservative nor evangelical. I reject an old theism.
I "do" theology. I don't memorize doctrine to refute opponents. I appeal to ideas and theologies and cosmologies and reality as defined by physics, chemistry and biology.
I am an exegetical, existentialist and process theologian but not a purist on those beliefs.
I am a Christian Existentialist in the school of Paul Tillich;
An Exegetical Biblical in the school of Bultmann;
and a process theologian in the School of Alfred North Whitehead.
So here goes
Cosmology and Reality (Existentialism)
All we humans, have ever known in this life is this moment - now. We accumulate history but We move from the -
Has Been to the NOW to Not Yet.
But no sooner than we say "now" than it moves into the "has been" but the "not yet" is not yet BUT now as you read these words "not yet" becomes "now" and quickly the "has been."
We, humans, experience reality as the now moment but a changing moment as "time passing."
"Now" is all we have!

Every human born was, and is, will be born into this reality -including Biblical people and events and writers.

Process Reality and Theology - So what impinges on this now moment? Alfred Whitehead said that there are four grades of experience.
1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not. This was true in Bible times too.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inantimaye objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
If one chooses to argue with me one must begin with my premise - reality (Grades 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5) is as I describe it and all humans in time lived in this reality.
Waco1947
I start with reality and then go the Bible to support the reality of the nature of God as love.
I do not start with an unsupportable premise "God is all powerful." That belief is a personal revelation that no one can argue with because it's your revelation.
Secularist believes it is magical thinking. Grade 1 reality is real to them not magical, wish fulfilling God.
"God is all powerful" is a physics statement with 0 zero proof in science. Let that notion sink in. "God is all powerful" is a scientific physic statement by definition- it has the word "power" in it and that places it within science's purview. You can't win there.
If you truly want to reach a secularist then the reality of God as love is your best course.

---

Are you really a robot. Talk about binary thinking, you are the king.

---

Feel free to point out the binary thinking. As usual an assertion without evidence.
Pull out of context too.

I am not orthodox nor fundamentalist nor conservative nor evangelical. I reject an old theism.
I "do" theology. I don't memorize doctrine to refute opponents. I appeal to ideas and theologies and cosmologies and reality as defined by physics, chemistry and biology.
I am an exegetical, existentialist and process theologian but not a purist on those beliefs.
I am a Christian Existentialist in the school of Paul Tillich;
An Exegetical Biblical in the school of Bultmann;
and a process theologian in the School of Alfred North Whitehead.

bearassnekkid said:

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ScottS said:

---

If 47 doesn't believe in hell, does he skip sections of the bible that mention hell, when pastoring his congregation?

---

He doesn't have a congregation. His screenname is a sock for another poster here. Honestly, it's a pretty impressive troll job.

---

Most likely he's a professor at Truett Seminary....

I believe hell. It's separation from the God of love. Hell is denying God's love for self and others

No one has dealt with this argument.
if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
True or false for you?
You know that if you say "Yes." You lose.
God is beyond time. Big Deal. We and Elaine live in this time and space.