riflebear said:

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applemacg4 said:

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Quote:

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If they want to show up on Sundays and hear the sermon - absolutely yes.

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You're wrong, and this sort of thinking is why the SBC and evangelicalism in general are shallow, not to mention ranging dumpster fires.

Repeat after me: Sunday worship services are a time for BELIEVERS to gather together to worship God, fellowship, and partake of communion.

Did you know that historically, the first century church dismissed even catachumens (people who had expressed an interest in Christianity and were being instructed in the faith) from services before partaking of the Lord's supper?

The concept of "seeker sensitive services" was unheard of. Why? Because the worship of God is not to be altered to cater to the unbeliever.

There is a time and a place for the great commission.

Sunday morning isn't it.

---

I've never heard a Christian believe this? If the worst scum on earth wanted to attend church and hear the pastor then I don't know any pastor who would turn them away. Now if they were there w/ an agenda to disrupt the service then of course they should be escorted out.

I hate to break it to you, but I'd be willing to bet there isn't a church in this world with over 50 people in it whose congregation is 100% believers. I don't know what church you go to, but I'd recommend finding another one if your pastor doesn't want to speak to non believers during their service. Not all sermons are catered to non believers of course but I don't know any pastor who would say please leave so I can only talk to the 'Christians'.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you and we're talking about different things because you have me confused now.

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I don't know if some of this is denominational nuances (there is mention of communion which in and of itself is a sacrament for believers only), but you hit nail on the head as far as the position of the church I'm a member of, which is a sizable United Methodist Church. Our pastor passionately believes in welcoming non-believers to the services, compassionately accepting them (which doesn't mean accepting and/or condoning their sin, whatever their sins might be) and preaching the good news of the Gospel to them. We're even having an upcoming "invite a non-believer to church" event in the coming weeks. And my church isn't at all unique. I'm in my 60's and have been a member of several different churches in my life and none of them were ever churches that didn't want as many non-believers as possible to attend and hopefully have their lives changed through hearing the Gospel.

Church is for all of us! We all sin. Think about who God called upon and invited into the fold when he was on earth. Mary Magdalene wasn't exactly respected. Our job and the church's job is to love and to teach what Jesus was all about. It's that simple.

I was raised non denominational and I thank god for that.

Here's your god:


Here's your church:

Exactly. Thanks Doc.

Doc Holliday said:

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I was raised non denominational and I thank god for that.

Here's your god:


Here's your church:

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Aren't there LGBTQI people in that "church"?

FormerFlash said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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applemacg4 said:

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riflebear said:

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Of course every church should welcome anyone into their congregation

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So churches should welcome Satanists, Nazis, and KKK members into their congregations?

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I don't know, nor care, where you attend but you'd be surprised how many of those belong to your church.

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Jinx? Is that you?

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Nope. I'm me. Graduated from the bubble long long long ago. I believe in the Ten Commandments. The rest is Santa Claus to me. But keep on thumping.

ScottS said:

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GoldMind said:

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You do realize that Christ never denounced homosexuality?

Some of the apostles letters mentioned it, and some Old Testament verses cover it.

---

Did Jesus mention any of these? necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality?

Now, question...is scripture divine? And, btw, Romans 1:26-28 is in the New Testament?

If God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he allow those verses to be in the bible indicating it wasn't ok? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to be presented in the bible (and not Adam and Steve)? It all just feels like the serpent telling Eve its all ok. Now you have the devil telling churches its all ok.

---

God didn't allow anything. The Bible is a compilation of stories and myths written by men, the same as all other religions, created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

TexasScientist said:

---

ScottS said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

You do realize that Christ never denounced homosexuality?

Some of the apostles letters mentioned it, and some Old Testament verses cover it.

---

Did Jesus mention any of these? necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality?

Now, question...is scripture divine? And, btw, Romans 1:26-28 is in the New Testament?

If God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he allow those verses to be in the bible indicating it wasn't ok? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to be presented in the bible (and not Adam and Steve)? It all just feels like the serpent telling Eve its all ok. Now you have the devil telling churches its all ok.

---

God didn't allow anything. The Bible is a compilation of stories and myths written by men, the same as all other religions, created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

---

Ah another one that doesn't believe the bible

Buddha Bear said:

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Florda_mike said:

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quash said:

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GolemIII said:

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2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

---

Used to distinguish 1200 American Christian denominations from one another.

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Do tell?

Please explain your statement?

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I wonder which denomination is the correct one

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Your chart left off the Church of the Later Day Saints. I think they believe they have the correct doctrine.

TexasScientist said:

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Buddha Bear said:

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Florda_mike said:

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quash said:

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GolemIII said:

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2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

---

Used to distinguish 1200 American Christian denominations from one another.

---

Do tell?

Please explain your statement?

---

I wonder which denomination is the correct one

---

Your chart left off the Church of the Later Day Saints. I think they believe they have the correct doctrine.

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I'd say they're more of a cult than a church....that's what the magic salamander told me....

YoakDaddy said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Buddha Bear said:

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Florda_mike said:

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quash said:

---

GolemIII said:

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2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

---

Used to distinguish 1200 American Christian denominations from one another.

---

Do tell?

Please explain your statement?

---

I wonder which denomination is the correct one

---

Your chart left off the Church of the Later Day Saints. I think they believe they have the correct doctrine.

---

I'd say they're more of a cult than a church....that's what the magic salamander told me....

---

All religions and denominations are cults. They claim you can learn all about Jesus with them.
https://www.comeuntochrist.org/

BearN said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BearN said:

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Waco1947 said:

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ScottS said:

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GoldMind said:

---

You do realize that Christ never denounced homosexuality?

Some of the apostles letters mentioned it, and some Old Testament verses cover it.

---

Did Jesus mention any of these? necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality?- No Jesus did not . That's not the issue here.-

Now, question...is scripture divine? And, btw, Romans 1:26-28 is in the New Testament?-Rome? Had Paul traveled to Rome? How did Paul know about Rome? What did Paul know about that sexual behavior? Was is it a parties, pagan prostitutes in the pagan temples? Was it pederasty? All of it horrific. No wonder Paul called it out.-

If God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he allow those verses to be in the bible indicating it wasn't ok? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to be presented in the bible (and not Adam and Steve)? It all just feels like the serpent telling Eve its all ok. Now you have the devil telling churches its all ok.

---

The Bible is a human book, humans inspired by God and their faith in God. How can 4000 years ago know about homosexuality? If they did not write Steve and Adam but they also did not say a word televisions either or cars or atomic fusion or Mexican food.

---

I knew your knowledge and understanding of the Bible was pretty horrible, but seriously. How is it that you are this ignorant? Have you ever heard of Abraham and Lot? Sodom and Gomorrah? Any of that ring a bell?
Sure But point me to the verse that says "Homosexuality is wrong." I can point to attempted rape and the attempted sexual abuse by Lot

The estimated dates for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah vary. Ussher estimates that the destruction occurred in the year of 1897 B.C. [1]. Thomas Robinson suggests a date of 1896 B.C.[2] and Merrill Unger gives a date of 2065 B.C. [3]. W. F. Albright states that the dates of pottery in the location where Sodom is believed to have exited ranges from 2300 to 1900 B.C.[4] The latest estimate for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is about 2070 B.C.[5]

---

So? You have dates. Is that point of th Sodom story or is it God's grace in spite of sin and Lot's and Lot's wife unyielding to sin and injustice.

---

It's not an either/or proposition. Those that obeyed received grace. Those that did not repent of sodomy were destroyed. Had God found 10 righteous men, he would have spared the unrepentant Sodomites from immediate death and judgement. They still would have to face judgement for their sins when they eventually died.

Once again. You are confused about someone receiving a reprieve for a death sentence in this life also meaning they escape eternal judgement in the next life without repentance and faith in Christ..

---

Show me the exact verse that says Sodom was destroyed for sodomy.

ScottS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

ScottS said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

You do realize that Christ never denounced homosexuality?

Some of the apostles letters mentioned it, and some Old Testament verses cover it.

---

Did Jesus mention any of these? necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality?

Now, question...is scripture divine? And, btw, Romans 1:26-28 is in the New Testament?

If God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he allow those verses to be in the bible indicating it wasn't ok? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to be presented in the bible (and not Adam and Steve)? It all just feels like the serpent telling Eve its all ok. Now you have the devil telling churches its all ok.

---

God didn't allow anything. The Bible is a compilation of stories and myths written by men, the same as all other religions, created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

---

Ah another one that doesn't believe the bible

---

Yeah, our name is Legion.

Waco1947 said:

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BearN said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BearN said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ScottS said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

You do realize that Christ never denounced homosexuality?

Some of the apostles letters mentioned it, and some Old Testament verses cover it.

---

Did Jesus mention any of these? necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality?- No Jesus did not . That's not the issue here.-

Now, question...is scripture divine? And, btw, Romans 1:26-28 is in the New Testament?-Rome? Had Paul traveled to Rome? How did Paul know about Rome? What did Paul know about that sexual behavior? Was is it a parties, pagan prostitutes in the pagan temples? Was it pederasty? All of it horrific. No wonder Paul called it out.-

If God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he allow those verses to be in the bible indicating it wasn't ok? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to be presented in the bible (and not Adam and Steve)? It all just feels like the serpent telling Eve its all ok. Now you have the devil telling churches its all ok.

---

The Bible is a human book, humans inspired by God and their faith in God. How can 4000 years ago know about homosexuality? If they did not write Steve and Adam but they also did not say a word televisions either or cars or atomic fusion or Mexican food.

---

I knew your knowledge and understanding of the Bible was pretty horrible, but seriously. How is it that you are this ignorant? Have you ever heard of Abraham and Lot? Sodom and Gomorrah? Any of that ring a bell?
Sure But point me to the verse that says "Homosexuality is wrong." I can point to attempted rape and the attempted sexual abuse by Lot

The estimated dates for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah vary. Ussher estimates that the destruction occurred in the year of 1897 B.C. [1]. Thomas Robinson suggests a date of 1896 B.C.[2] and Merrill Unger gives a date of 2065 B.C. [3]. W. F. Albright states that the dates of pottery in the location where Sodom is believed to have exited ranges from 2300 to 1900 B.C.[4] The latest estimate for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is about 2070 B.C.[5]

---

So? You have dates. Is that point of th Sodom story or is it God's grace in spite of sin and Lot's and Lot's wife unyielding to sin and injustice.

---

It's not an either/or proposition. Those that obeyed received grace. Those that did not repent of sodomy were destroyed. Had God found 10 righteous men, he would have spared the unrepentant Sodomites from immediate death and judgement. They still would have to face judgement for their sins when they eventually died.

Once again. You are confused about someone receiving a reprieve for a death sentence in this life also meaning they escape eternal judgement in the next life without repentance and faith in Christ..

---

Show me the exact verse that says Sodom was destroyed for sodomy.

---

Violation of hospitality.

TexasScientist said:

---

ScottS said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

You do realize that Christ never denounced homosexuality?

Some of the apostles letters mentioned it, and some Old Testament verses cover it.

---

Did Jesus mention any of these? necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality?

Now, question...is scripture divine? And, btw, Romans 1:26-28 is in the New Testament?

If God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he allow those verses to be in the bible indicating it wasn't ok? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to be presented in the bible (and not Adam and Steve)? It all just feels like the serpent telling Eve its all ok. Now you have the devil telling churches its all ok.

---

God didn't allow anything. The Bible is a compilation of stories and myths written by men, the same as all other religions, created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

---

Ahh, so you think it is like macroevolution and atheistic cosmological theories...a bunch of stories and myths created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

My perceived progression of non inclusive conservative folk by Beth Wolsey
"When you told me
1. you're certain your interpretation of the Bible is the only interpretation
2. when you said the meaning of the Bible in whatever English translation you prefer is clear
3. when you said homosexuality was a "lifestyle choice" and an "abomination" and changed your mind to "orientation"
4. when the science became clear
5. when you still insisted that our homosexual and transsexual and bisexual and pansexual and polysexual and queer and questioning and human neighbors may exist but may not practice their sexuality within the parameters of Godliness
6. when you said the theology on sexuality is different than our former, historical theological justifications for slavery or women remaining silent in church or the sun revolving around the earth you lost me.
7. When you said you believe in a static understanding of the Bible outside of context and history and oral recitation and science and poetry and translation
8. when you ditched the beautifully mysterious and mystical meanings of God's Word who was made flesh in Jesus Christ
8. when you denied the Holy Spirit has come with fire to be an ongoing revelation to God's people you lost me completely.
9. When I watched people suffer and become more disenfranchised than ever because of your interpretation of Scripture and your imposition of that on their lives, so very unlike Jesus' response to the marginalized, you lost me.

Waco1947 said:

---

My perceived progression of non inclusive conservative folk by Beth Wolsey
"When you told me
1. you're certain your interpretation of the Bible is the only interpretation
2. when you said the meaning of the Bible in whatever English translation you prefer is clear
3. when you said homosexuality was a "lifestyle choice" and an "abomination" and changed your mind to "orientation"
4. when the science became clear
5. when you still insisted that our homosexual and transsexual and bisexual and pansexual and polysexual and queer and questioning and human neighbors may exist but may not practice their sexuality within the parameters of Godliness
6. when you said the theology on sexuality is different than our former, historical theological justifications for slavery or women remaining silent in church or the sun revolving around the earth you lost me.
7. When you said you believe in a static understanding of the Bible outside of context and history and oral recitation and science and poetry and translation
8. when you ditched the beautifully mysterious and mystical meanings of God's Word who was made flesh in Jesus Christ
8. when you denied the Holy Spirit has come with fire to be an ongoing revelation to God's people you lost me completely.
9. When I watched people suffer and become more disenfranchised than ever because of your interpretation of Scripture and your imposition of that on their lives, so very unlike Jesus' response to the marginalized, you lost me.

---

Pretty telling that you quote people and dismiss the Bible. Why put your faith in people rather than God?

and I notice you only quote people that agree with you.

5. within the parameters of Godliness? What does that even mean?

fadskier said:

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5. within the parameters of Godliness? What does that even mean?

---

It sounds like putting lipstick on a pig and claiming it is no longer a pig.

BaylorFTW said:

---

fadskier said:

---

5. within the parameters of Godliness? What does that even mean?

---

It sounds like putting lipstick on a pig and claiming it is no longer a pig.

---

I'm hoping he/she has a legitimate answer.

fadskier said:

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

fadskier said:

---

5. within the parameters of Godliness? What does that even mean?

---

It sounds like putting lipstick on a pig and claiming it is no longer a pig.

---

I'm hoping he/she has a legitimate answer.

---

He is at the equivalent of a poster munchausen syndrome. He trolls and people actually answer thinking that a productive conversation might happen

Any chance this has anything to do with the declining amount of people who are attending church in this country? Less people attending = less money in the offering so instead of applying screws harder to those already there churches are looking for a new revenue stream?

BaylorFTW said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

ScottS said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

You do realize that Christ never denounced homosexuality?

Some of the apostles letters mentioned it, and some Old Testament verses cover it.

---

Did Jesus mention any of these? necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality?

Now, question...is scripture divine? And, btw, Romans 1:26-28 is in the New Testament?

If God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he allow those verses to be in the bible indicating it wasn't ok? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to be presented in the bible (and not Adam and Steve)? It all just feels like the serpent telling Eve its all ok. Now you have the devil telling churches its all ok.

---

God didn't allow anything. The Bible is a compilation of stories and myths written by men, the same as all other religions, created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

---

Ahh, so you think it is like macroevolution and atheistic cosmological theories...a bunch of stories and myths created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

---

Evolution is a naturalistic process, well documented. Cosmological theories are newer, subject to more new evidence, but still far more robust than supernatural creation.

Science: it's only right when it refers things I need, like a cellphone, the internet, medicine...

fadskier said:

---

5. within the parameters of Godliness? What does that even mean?

---

Good question! It means "who is included in God's love?"
Does our sexual identity make a difference to God? Does God care?

BaylorFTW said:

---

quash said:

---

Evolution is a naturalistic process, well documented.

---

Macroevolution is an atheistic worldview. Claims are made but it being proven is another matter.

quash said:

---

Cosmological theories are newer, subject to more new evidence, but still far more robust than supernatural creation.

---

Lol, they are absolutely not more robust than intelligent design. If you have been paying attention, they keep changing their mind: it's big bang, no the universe is infinite, no the world is a multiverse, oh no, the word is finite and the world came from nothing, No, the nothing was actually a something and on and on. That is the opposite of being robust or strong and healthy theories.

quash said:

---

Science: it's only right when it refers things I need, like a cellphone, the internet, medicine...

---

The problem is scientism not science. Good science acknowledges there is a worldview. For example, many atheists claim evolution is a fact. But the reality is that evolution is an atheistic belief system with assumptions. There is no solid proof or evidence of macroevolution and many scientists reject it.

---

Show me the proof of the theory of gravity. Please.

BaylorFTW said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

ScottS said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

You do realize that Christ never denounced homosexuality?

Some of the apostles letters mentioned it, and some Old Testament verses cover it.

---

Did Jesus mention any of these? necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality?

Now, question...is scripture divine? And, btw, Romans 1:26-28 is in the New Testament?

If God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he allow those verses to be in the bible indicating it wasn't ok? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to be presented in the bible (and not Adam and Steve)? It all just feels like the serpent telling Eve its all ok. Now you have the devil telling churches its all ok.

---

God didn't allow anything. The Bible is a compilation of stories and myths written by men, the same as all other religions, created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

---

Ahh, so you think it is like macroevolution and atheistic cosmological theories...a bunch of stories and myths created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

---

Yes, except one is evidence based through employing the scientific method. The other is faith/hope based without evidence.

TexasScientist said:

---

BaylorFTW said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

ScottS said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

You do realize that Christ never denounced homosexuality?

Some of the apostles letters mentioned it, and some Old Testament verses cover it.

---

Did Jesus mention any of these? necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality?

Now, question...is scripture divine? And, btw, Romans 1:26-28 is in the New Testament?

If God thought homosexuality was ok, why did he allow those verses to be in the bible indicating it wasn't ok? Why did God allow Adam and Eve to be presented in the bible (and not Adam and Steve)? It all just feels like the serpent telling Eve its all ok. Now you have the devil telling churches its all ok.

---

God didn't allow anything. The Bible is a compilation of stories and myths written by men, the same as all other religions, created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

---

Ahh, so you think it is like macroevolution and atheistic cosmological theories...a bunch of stories and myths created in the minds of humans and evolving for human objectives and purposes.

---

Yes, except one is evidence based through employing the scientific method. The other is faith/hope based without evidence.

---

Oh, really? Let's hear these evidence based claims. Or better yet, I will start a new thread on this topic since we are getting away the subject of this topic.

Waco1947 said:

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fadskier said:

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5. within the parameters of Godliness? What does that even mean?

---

Goid question! It means "who is included in God's love?"
Does our sexual identity make a difference to God? Does God care?

---

God loves us no matter what. However, we must do our best in following his rules/laws. We all fall short. Yes, when we sin, it matters to God.

Is 1947 right? Will everyone go to Heaven?

Can't wait.

0xdeadbeef said:

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GoldMind said:

---

Do you not believe that Christ message was one of love and acceptance?

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How could Jesus possibly mean that when they had absolutely no concept of that term? I mean, the 2019 John Stuart Mills concept of "acceptance" is something that would be completely and utterly alien to Greek culture 2000 years ago, to say nothing of a dirt poor itinerant preaching Jew in Galilee. Greek / Jewish culture 2K years ago had no concept of the "self" as we think of it today, so it's completely and totally impossible to use the word "acceptance" like we mean it today.

---

I'm having trouble with your meaning here, Ox.

While different languages and cultures carry meanings to words and actions, I cannot agree that there was no concept of the 'self'. Many of Jesus' parables dealt with selfish desires and the inner self, including his admonition to cut off that part of yourself which causes you to sin.

I think there is a certain 'new is better' arrogance to modern thought, as if the ancients were just dumb savages who could not grasp subtle or intimate ideas, when a plain reading of Plato or Sophocles shows quite the opposite. If anything, people today are dumbed down by the lowest-common-denominator aspect of internet forums, where sophistry (the good kind) and introspection are unknown.

With that said, I also think Jesus' message was clearly about repentance, rebirth, and relationship. Repentance to discard the evil of our old nature, rebirth through faith in Christ and a relationship with God based on principles of agape in thought, word and deed. I believe Paul was chosen as a kind of avatar for the way we may live in Christ, to show the extent of God's love and forgiveness, the unworthiness on our side to claim we deserve such grace, the consequence of our actions (Paul had to bear many harsh persecutions for Christ, in part due to his former persecution against Christians) and the hope which lives in all who believe.