Canada2017 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

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No one is arguing for absolute equality. Just a real chance at opportunity. A situation where anyone, if they're smart enough and willing to work hard, can increase their status.

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We have a situation where anyone who is smart enough and willing to work hard can increase their status.

---

True....within reason.

One must also avoid the numerous pitfalls common in today's culture: alcoholism, drug addiction, obesity, tobacco, gambling, premature parenthood, STD's and AID's.

One also must have a certain amount of luck...in who you marry, avoiding crippling accidents , unavoidable Heath issues, random acts of violence and mental degeneration.

Life is all a crapshoot and rarely fair .

Or as a cardiologist once sadly told me years ago.......

' Some folks are just unlucky '

---

That's not unfairness, that's peril and decision making. Life will always have peril. Sometimes it's more difficult to avoid peril or benefit from good decision making, but our level of peril is much lower than most of the world, and the opportunity to benefit from good decision making is very present.

curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

"We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice."

Respectfully, just can't agree with this assertion. It has to be hard work in the right occupation, at the right time, in the right place, etc. Market forces tend to make the decisions on a macro level as to how much our activities are "worth" as measured by compensation. Some activities simply receive less compensation due primarily to our old friends supply and demand.

I've spent many hours lately reading Jordan Peterson's Maps of Meaning as well as listening to many of his extended lectures available on YouTube. I commend his work to all. Re economic success, he attributes most of it to IQ and conscientiousness. A significant portion is also attributable to a number of other factors including chance. That said, he also states IQ is largely a factor of genetics, so isn't really "earned", but rather something I would call an unmerited gift.

---

Well said. And what other system would you substitute for it? One that rewards something other than the best outcome? One where someone else makes decisions about who the winners and losers are? The corollary to Winston Churchill's great saying: Capitalism is the worst system possible, except for all of the others.

We ain't lowering our expections.
Which of these did we lower?
youth
hard working
boldest,
most innovative
Ambitious
Risk tolerant
People

ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

curtpenn said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

"We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice."

Respectfully, just can't agree with this assertion. It has to be hard work in the right occupation, at the right time, in the right place, etc. Market forces tend to make the decisions on a macro level as to how much our activities are "worth" as measured by compensation. Some activities simply receive less compensation due primarily to our old friends supply and demand.

I've spent many hours lately reading Jordan Peterson's Maps of Meaning as well as listening to many of his extended lectures available on YouTube. I commend his work to all. Re economic success, he attributes most of it to IQ and conscientiousness. A significant portion is also attributable to a number of other factors including chance. That said, he also states IQ is largely a factor of genetics, so isn't really "earned", but rather something I would call an unmerited gift.

---

Jordan Peterson? Jesus. Why am I not surprised?

I've read much of his crap. He's a blowhard and an *******. It's catnip for socially aggrieved white men who don't want to admit basic truths about the world.

Enjoy.

BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

I will simply say that I completely disagree with BBL's take, from condition as well as cause to his ignorance of the success of capitalism in terms of human advancement.

ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

Impressive collection of sources.

Well done .

Waco1947 said:

---

We ain't lowering our expections.
Which of these did we lower?
youth
hard working
boldest,
most innovative
Ambitious
Risk tolerant
People

---

This is tangential to what I said. I believe we still have or can have all those characteristics within individuals. However we are destroying those characteristics by entitling society with things like living wages, guaranteed incomes, and lots of freebies. Those all work to lower the expectations of both achievement, hard work, and income mobility.

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

These aren't commentary on economic mobility. They're talking about an economy which has gotten better (11 straight years of improvement since the Obama admin turned it around).

But the gains have been incredibly uneven. Wealth inequality is near all-time record levels. -which only backs UP my point.

Economic mobility is low -and not at all reflective of the 11 straight years of growth. Economists of ALL stripes are agreeing on this.

Canada2017 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

Impressive collection of sources.

Well done .

---

You didn't read a SINGLE one.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

Impressive collection of sources.

Well done .

---

You didn't read a SINGLE one.

---

There's no reason to think so, and in any case his argument is at least supported, something you have not even begun to do with your contentions, BBL.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

Impressive collection of sources.

Well done .

---

You didn't read a SINGLE one.

---

There's no reason to think so, and in any case his argument is at least supported, something you have not even begun to do with your contentions, BBL.

---

Atl posted four long articles. Canada responded with congratulations 6 minutes later.

He didn't read a single one before he complimented him on how impressive it was.

It's almost like it didn't matter what was posted. You guys are disgusting. I have posted article and study after article and study. You reflexively disagree and ignore the content.

I have never met a group of people who are so proud of their own ignorance. You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate.

At least ATL is trying.

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

These aren't commentary on economic mobility. They're talking about an economy which has gotten better (11 straight years of improvement since the Obama admin turned it around).

But the gains have been incredibly uneven. Wealth inequality is near all-time record levels. -which only backs UP my point.

Economic mobility is low -and not at all reflective of the 11 straight years of growth. Economists of ALL stripes are agreeing on this.

---

Not sure you read these. They specifically address the points in discussion, including how data used to support the idea of stagnating income and mobility is flawed. I also like how the San Fran fed reserve discusses how creative destruction has hindered the actual measure of productivity and growth because we can't accurately account for material product improvements and efficiencies picked up in technology. Why that's important is that it means inflation could be overstated, thus meaning wage growth would be materially higher.

The other important point is mobility being measured at the individual level not the simple flat point in time group assessment. People are transitioning through time to higher wage points. They might not move from the lowest quintile to the highest, but they are improving their lot in life and being economically mobile. The rich are getting richer, no doubt. But others that don't start out rich are becoming wealthy, and a large percentage of those in the lowest income rings are moving up into higher incomes and by default improving their lives.

I think a fascinating point is that a material portion of the lowest tier of income levels are being filled by immigrant labor. Several directions to take that fact, but one clear one is that the domestic labor force is moving away from the lowest quintile, and that immigrant labor is both fulfilling a need and suppressing wage growth.

---

The first article by Samuelson (a hard-core conservative who hasn't been relevant since the 90's) tried to make a point about stagnant wages segueing that wages for the poor have increased. -he's arguing a point no one is making. It's not that wages haven't increased -it's that REAL wages haven't increased. Wages have increased. But the cost of everything else has as well. Housing. Gas. INSURANCE. The cost of education. He also conveniently tap-dances around the concept of wage disparity.

I was talking about economic mobility. He doesn't discuss that at all.

The second article "the economic letter" addresses productivity gains -which was fascinating- buy had absolutely nothing to do with economic mobility. In fact, it highlights the bull**** situation we have where American productivity gains HAVENT been met with commensurate wage gains. It's exacerbating wage disparity.

The third article makes an argument not really for economic mobility so much as it attacks the agreed-upon methods for measuring it. And I'm all for interrogation of accepted methods. Absolutely.

But the point it tries to make doesn't land. It starts with the LOWEST of the low and trumpets gains made by a percentage of people with literacy nowhere to go but up: immigrant children. The argument doesn't really land for a number of reasons, obvious to any reader of this board.

But I'll give you 50% on that one.

The last article was a blog by some dude I have never heard of. And it didn't really argue saying there IS more economic mobility, but rather just attacks suggestions to assuage the lack thereof.

So out of the four articles you posted, one actually attempts to counter the accepted idea that economic mobility in the US is low and dropping (it may have ticked up slightly by this time next year as wages are FINALLY increasing, but the results of that won't be known for some time.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

These aren't commentary on economic mobility. They're talking about an economy which has gotten better (11 straight years of improvement since the Obama admin turned it around).

But the gains have been incredibly uneven. Wealth inequality is near all-time record levels. -which only backs UP my point.

Economic mobility is low -and not at all reflective of the 11 straight years of growth. Economists of ALL stripes are agreeing on this.

---

Not sure you read these. They specifically address the points in discussion, including how data used to support the idea of stagnating income and mobility is flawed. I also like how the San Fran fed reserve discusses how creative destruction has hindered the actual measure of productivity and growth because we can't accurately account for material product improvements and efficiencies picked up in technology. Why that's important is that it means inflation could be overstated, thus meaning wage growth would be materially higher.

The other important point is mobility being measured at the individual level not the simple flat point in time group assessment. People are transitioning through time to higher wage points. They might not move from the lowest quintile to the highest, but they are improving their lot in life and being economically mobile. The rich are getting richer, no doubt. But others that don't start out rich are becoming wealthy, and a large percentage of those in the lowest income rings are moving up into higher incomes and by default improving their lives.

I think a fascinating point is that a material portion of the lowest tier of income levels are being filled by immigrant labor. Several directions to take that fact, but one clear one is that the domestic labor force is moving away from the lowest quintile, and that immigrant labor is both fulfilling a need and suppressing wage growth.

---

But the point it tries to make doesn't land. It starts with the LOWEST of the low and trumpets gains made by a percentage of people with literacy nowhere to go but up: immigrant children. The argument doesn't really land for a number of reasons, obvious to any reader of this board.

---

That was literally the last word I expected you to misspell. And from such a literate poster!

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

Sam Lowry said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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ATL Bear said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

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ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

These aren't commentary on economic mobility. They're talking about an economy which has gotten better (11 straight years of improvement since the Obama admin turned it around).

But the gains have been incredibly uneven. Wealth inequality is near all-time record levels. -which only backs UP my point.

Economic mobility is low -and not at all reflective of the 11 straight years of growth. Economists of ALL stripes are agreeing on this.

---

Not sure you read these. They specifically address the points in discussion, including how data used to support the idea of stagnating income and mobility is flawed. I also like how the San Fran fed reserve discusses how creative destruction has hindered the actual measure of productivity and growth because we can't accurately account for material product improvements and efficiencies picked up in technology. Why that's important is that it means inflation could be overstated, thus meaning wage growth would be materially higher.

The other important point is mobility being measured at the individual level not the simple flat point in time group assessment. People are transitioning through time to higher wage points. They might not move from the lowest quintile to the highest, but they are improving their lot in life and being economically mobile. The rich are getting richer, no doubt. But others that don't start out rich are becoming wealthy, and a large percentage of those in the lowest income rings are moving up into higher incomes and by default improving their lives.

I think a fascinating point is that a material portion of the lowest tier of income levels are being filled by immigrant labor. Several directions to take that fact, but one clear one is that the domestic labor force is moving away from the lowest quintile, and that immigrant labor is both fulfilling a need and suppressing wage growth.

---

But the point it tries to make doesn't land. It starts with the LOWEST of the low and trumpets gains made by a percentage of people with literacy nowhere to go but up: immigrant children. The argument doesn't really land for a number of reasons, obvious to any reader of this board.

---

That was literally the last word I expected you to misspell. And from such a literate poster!

---

Lol! I really ducked that one up. Hahaha

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

These aren't commentary on economic mobility. They're talking about an economy which has gotten better (11 straight years of improvement since the Obama admin turned it around).

But the gains have been incredibly uneven. Wealth inequality is near all-time record levels. -which only backs UP my point.

Economic mobility is low -and not at all reflective of the 11 straight years of growth. Economists of ALL stripes are agreeing on this.

---

Not sure you read these. They specifically address the points in discussion, including how data used to support the idea of stagnating income and mobility is flawed. I also like how the San Fran fed reserve discusses how creative destruction has hindered the actual measure of productivity and growth because we can't accurately account for material product improvements and efficiencies picked up in technology. Why that's important is that it means inflation could be overstated, thus meaning wage growth would be materially higher.

The other important point is mobility being measured at the individual level not the simple flat point in time group assessment. People are transitioning through time to higher wage points. They might not move from the lowest quintile to the highest, but they are improving their lot in life and being economically mobile. The rich are getting richer, no doubt. But others that don't start out rich are becoming wealthy, and a large percentage of those in the lowest income rings are moving up into higher incomes and by default improving their lives.

I think a fascinating point is that a material portion of the lowest tier of income levels are being filled by immigrant labor. Several directions to take that fact, but one clear one is that the domestic labor force is moving away from the lowest quintile, and that immigrant labor is both fulfilling a need and suppressing wage growth.

---

The first article by Samuelson (a hard-core conservative who hasn't been relevant since the 90's) tried to make a point about stagnant wages segueing that wages for the poor have increased. -he's arguing a point no one is making. It's not that wages haven't increased -it's that REAL wages haven't increased. Wages have increased. But the cost of everything else has as well. Housing. Gas. INSURANCE. The cost of education. He also conveniently tap-dances around the concept of wage disparity.

I was talking about economic mobility. He doesn't discuss that at all.

The second article "the economic letter" addresses productivity gains -which was fascinating- buy had absolutely nothing to do with economic mobility. In fact, it highlights the bull**** situation we have where American productivity gains HAVENT been met with commensurate wage gains. It's exacerbating wage disparity.

The third article makes an argument not really for economic mobility so much as it attacks the agreed-upon methods for measuring it. And I'm all for interrogation of accepted methods. Absolutely.

But the point it tries to make doesn't land. It starts with the LOWEST of the low and trumpets gains made by a percentage of people with literacy nowhere to go but up: immigrant children. The argument doesn't really land for a number of reasons, obvious to any reader of this board.

But I'll give you 50% on that one.

The last article was a blog by some dude I have never heard of. And it didn't really argue saying there IS more economic mobility, but rather just attacks suggestions to assuage the lack thereof.

So out of the four articles you posted, one actually attempts to counter the accepted idea that economic mobility in the US is low and dropping (it may have ticked up slightly by this time next year as wages are FINALLY increasing, but the results of that won't be known for some time.

---

Not sure how to engage you on this as your interpretation of the information provided doesn't match the information itself. Furthermore, you complained about the articles countering the interpretation of data, when that was exactly one of the core problems of economic evaluation you disputed.

An example is the report from the SF Fed. You're saying that it shows how wages aren't keeping pace with productivity when what it actually is saying is that we're not able to assess the impact of productivity on the value of wages (real wages as you stressed) due to the technological advances in the products and services we spend on. That's important because it skews inflation numbers which are the primary depressor of comparative wage evaluations.

One of the points you (and others evaluating mobility) seem to miss is the problem with flat point in time comparison of wages as the evaluator of economic mobility. The reason is that the vast majority of people don't stay in their specific income striations over their lives. They move into higher income brackets as their career matures. Furthermore, the elderly and retired are making up a growing percentage of these income models, and they are not economically mobile because they are focused on a fixed earning model from savings, retirement, SS, etc. so naturally they would be closer to "stagnant" in their income.

As far as Mitchell, he's a libertarian economist, which means you'll likely dismiss him on that fact alone, but it doesn't change the validity of his points regarding the flaws in the Pew research opinions.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

---

The shame isn't on me. I commented on the substance of the articles BEFORE you posted asking if I was going to. There's proof.

You can apologize anytime you want.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

---

The shame isn't on me. I commented on the substance of the articles BEFORE you posted asking if I was going to. There's proof.

You can apologize anytime you want.

---

Stop drinking and grow up, son.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

---

The shame isn't on me. I commented on the substance of the articles BEFORE you posted asking if I was going to. There's proof.

You can apologize anytime you want.

---

Stop drinking and grow up, son.

---

So you won't admit you're wrong?

Shucks. What's new?

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

---

The shame isn't on me. I commented on the substance of the articles BEFORE you posted asking if I was going to. There's proof.

You can apologize anytime you want.

---

Stop drinking and grow up, son.

---

So you won't admit you're wrong?

Shucks. What's new?

---

I will admit to being wrong, when I am actually wrong.

I will not falsely admit to being wrong so you can pretend you "won" another internet battle over the adults.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

There is a clear, fundamental basis of fairness and equality that exists in the US. That cannot be argued. We are now trying to guarantee outcomes in a competitive economy which will never happen. We're also measuring poverty against a highly advanced income and standard of living scale. That literally means that our success has made our poor the wealthiest poor in the world by a factor of 10+ in comparison.

We have one of the most advanced legal systems that has both criminal and civil recourse for those subject to injustice, unfairness, fraud, or corruption. Not to mention a system of laws that favors fairness, equality, and justice.

Does that mean that everything is perfect? Of course not. Will the path to success be more difficult for some than others? Of course. But from a purely systemic perspective, the opportunity to better your lot in life is as available as ever, and merit/performance/work is rewarded.

I believe the visibility of our wealth and success as individuals and as a society has crept into an entitled expectation of certain comfort without sacrifice. Ironically, this approach/perspective has and will lead to greater disparity between haves and have nots, despite the "have nots" having quite a bit from a global comparative perspective.

---

"Entitled expectation". Do have any proof or is this simply a straw man opinion of people.

---

Sadly, yes.

---

Prove it.

---

"I tried hard, why didn't you give me an A?"
How old are you? If you are of a certain cohort, you will have seen it for yourself.

---

Sigh. I said none of those things. You're purposefully mischaracterizing my statements, and you're the only one who would fall for it.

I said someone smart enough and hard-working enough to do the work should have it pay off. If you're working your ass off full time, you should be able to pay your bills and move up the ladder.

We HAVE to reward hard work. It shouldn't take "luck" to get ahead. Hard work should suffice.

If we aren't intent on rewarding hard work, what are we even doing? We are training a society to give up, because working hard doesn't pay off. We're literally saying it's all a luck game. Either you have it or you don't. Work doesn't matter at all.

---

We do and it happens all the time in this country. Society isn't giving up, society is lowering the expectation ratio between effort and outcome of that effort. The minimum wage/living wage argument is a classic example of that.

---

The data doesn't bear that out.

Economic mobility is low and falling. People have two jobs and still can't afford to live.

Y'all don't see it. I guess because no one knows anyone who is poor? Idk. But it is fact. You can state it's possible all you want. Anything is possible. But it's not happening like it should.

---

The data does bear out tremendous social mobility. What the studies you fixate on are the ability to move from the lowest quintile of earnings to the highest. That's not the only way to measure social mobility. Also, most of the data is flawed. The CBO puts out the most comprehensive data on this, and it clearly shows income growth and economic mobility. You also seem to focus on the educational mobility in some of your data, which I view as independent of economic mobility.

And I'm around poverty on a somewhat regular basis. Real poverty. And because of that, I have a perspective on social and income opportunity that isn't skewed by the expectations of our high income standard of living, or the things we take for granted when trying to better our individual lives.

---

Please show your work.

---

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-arent-stagnating-after-all/2018/11/18/055edb38-e9dc-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.6a3c80e53798

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2017/october/missing-growth-from-creative-destruction/

https://medium.com/@russroberts/do-the-rich-capture-all-the-gains-from-economic-growth-c96d93101f9c

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/biggest-takeaway-from-pew-report-on-income-trends-making-america-more-like-france-wont-help-the-middle-class/

---

Impressive collection of sources.

Well done .

---

You didn't read a SINGLE one.

---

Not true

Opened and glanced through them all.

I don't pretend to comprehend all the arguments....but was very impressed that ATL Bear made the effort to compile them for you .

You should be flattered .

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

---

The shame isn't on me. I commented on the substance of the articles BEFORE you posted asking if I was going to. There's proof.

You can apologize anytime you want.

---

Stop drinking and grow up, son.

---

So you won't admit you're wrong?

Shucks. What's new?

---

I will admit to being wrong, when I am actually wrong.

I will not falsely admit to being wrong so you can pretend you "won" another internet battle over the adults.

---

You can start with admitting that your claim that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are not actually government spending is obviously wrong. You can move on to admitting that your claim that Title IX hearings at public universities are not state action is obviously wrong.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

---

The shame isn't on me. I commented on the substance of the articles BEFORE you posted asking if I was going to. There's proof.

You can apologize anytime you want.

---

Stop drinking and grow up, son.

---

So you won't admit you're wrong?

Shucks. What's new?

---

I will admit to being wrong, when I am actually wrong.

I will not falsely admit to being wrong so you can pretend you "won" another internet battle over the adults.

---

You can start with admitting that your claim that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are not actually government spending is obviously wrong. You can move on to admitting that your claim that Title IX hearings at public universities are not state action is obviously wrong.

---

Are you talking to me, D.C.? Because I never made those claims.

Oldbear83 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

---

The shame isn't on me. I commented on the substance of the articles BEFORE you posted asking if I was going to. There's proof.

You can apologize anytime you want.

---

Stop drinking and grow up, son.

---

So you won't admit you're wrong?

Shucks. What's new?

---

I will admit to being wrong, when I am actually wrong.

I will not falsely admit to being wrong so you can pretend you "won" another internet battle over the adults.

---

You can start with admitting that your claim that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are not actually government spending is obviously wrong. You can move on to admitting that your claim that Title IX hearings at public universities are not state action is obviously wrong.

---

Are you talking to me, D.C.? Because I never made those claims.

---

No, hit reply to the wrong post. Those are BBL's positions. Meant to get the one immediately above.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

---

The shame isn't on me. I commented on the substance of the articles BEFORE you posted asking if I was going to. There's proof.

You can apologize anytime you want.

---

Stop drinking and grow up, son.

---

So you won't admit you're wrong?

Shucks. What's new?

---

I will admit to being wrong, when I am actually wrong.

I will not falsely admit to being wrong so you can pretend you "won" another internet battle over the adults.

---

You can start with admitting that your claim that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are not actually government spending is obviously wrong. You can move on to admitting that your claim that Title IX hearings at public universities are not state action is obviously wrong.

---

Are you talking to me, D.C.? Because I never made those claims.

---

No, hit reply to the wrong post. Those are BBL's positions. Meant to get the one immediately above.

---

Thanks D.C., I was confused there. But BBL will come back and tell you to apologize and admit he "won".

Oldbear83 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

MBBL: 'You're not even TRYING to engage in honest debate. "

Absolutely true of you, BBL.

All I see from you is unsupported assertions and name-calling.

Grow the F up and discuss ATL's evidence or admit you are being a troll.

---

Honestly. Do you not read?

---

Indeed I read. Don't you have any shame?

---

The shame isn't on me. I commented on the substance of the articles BEFORE you posted asking if I was going to. There's proof.

You can apologize anytime you want.

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Stop drinking and grow up, son.

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So you won't admit you're wrong?

Shucks. What's new?

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I will admit to being wrong, when I am actually wrong.

I will not falsely admit to being wrong so you can pretend you "won" another internet battle over the adults.

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You can start with admitting that your claim that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are not actually government spending is obviously wrong. You can move on to admitting that your claim that Title IX hearings at public universities are not state action is obviously wrong.

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Are you talking to me, D.C.? Because I never made those claims.

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No, hit reply to the wrong post. Those are BBL's positions. Meant to get the one immediately above.

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Thanks D.C., I was confused there. But BBL will come back and tell you to apologize and admit he "won".

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Without a doubt.