EatMoreSalmon said:

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Some posters on here, given the chance, would never have ordered the invasion of the beaches of Normandy because it would have been estimated to lose too many lives. Lot's of General George B. McClellans on here. His attitude of "the enemy is always too big, and the other generals are too reckless, but by gosh, my men are well trained" almost lost the war for the North. He also almost became president. Would have been a disaster.

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There is a difference in preventable deaths due to a manageable public health crisis, and the necessity of ordering people into combat for wartime military objectives knowing there will be deaths. They are irrelevant to each other, other than noting the historical significance about total deaths due to a crisis.

TexasScientist said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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Some posters on here, given the chance, would never have ordered the invasion of the beaches of Normandy because it would have been estimated to lose too many lives. Lot's of General George B. McClellans on here. His attitude of "the enemy is always too big, and the other generals are too reckless, but by gosh, my men are well trained" almost lost the war for the North. He also almost became president. Would have been a disaster.

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There is a difference in preventable deaths due to a manageable public health crisis, and the necessity of ordering people into combat for wartime military objectives knowing there will be deaths. They are irrelevant to each other, other than noting the historical significance about total deaths due to a crisis.

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If you were President, what would you do to fight COVID?

TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

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Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

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Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

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Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

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14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

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You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

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I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

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Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

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What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

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Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

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My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

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If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

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Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

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I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

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Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

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It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

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Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

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407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

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Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

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Aren't we around 200k? If so that's not closing in on. It's half.

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

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There's "a" projection, as in a single one, that has that many by year end. It ain't happening. That was after they had to push that number back from Aug 25th. They'll be pushing it back again. Just maniacal

ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

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Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

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Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

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Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

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14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And you're drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

---

Read carefully and think about what I said. As I've already said in another response, I'm talking about an attitude, about the willingess of citizens to incovenience themselves personally and financially in order to support the war effort for everyone. People shouldered up and rationed, bought war bonds etc.in order to win the war and ultimately save lives. It appears some on this board don't have the same willingness and empathy for others. As far as hitting the beaches of Normandy, that required a huge step in that direction. The closest thing we have in this crisis is that of fronline health care professionals and workers.

President Draft Dodging Bone Spur has already indicated he knows nothing about Normandy, and thinks those who gave their lives are loosers, from his own statments. That's your guy who is mismanaging this crisis. So - C'mon!

---

The disease is and has been aerosolized. The courage is to live life not hide from it. The attitude or belief we're going to quarantine, mask, and social distance our way out of this is absurd. Blame Trump, Cuomo, American attitudes or who/whatever, but it's firmly here and you or someone near you is going to get it if they haven't already And they'll be fine. Perhaps that realism is as valuable if not more so than the comfort some feel assuaged by with half measures of avoidance. Fortunately it's not a very dangerous enemy. Take your vitamin regimen, get outdoor exercise of some sort, and fight on.

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I already know six people who have died from Covid. So don't tell me it is not dangerous. Perhaps you're lucky not to know anyone who has died. The science behind quarantine, mask and social distance is valid, and is only part of the science driven policies successfully implemented by countries that have this under control. If we follow your views, this virus will burn its way through the country leaving a much larger wake of dead, and people suffering from associated Covid morbidity.

There is no good reason why our country cannot implement the policies, or a modification of policies of countries that have successfully managed the spread and consequently the deaths with Covid, without wrecking their economies. Inconveniencing (temporarily) some people for the health and public safety of everyone shouldn't even be a question.

Florda_mike said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

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Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

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Aren't we around 200k? If so that's not closing in on. It's half.

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Welcome

I'd like to introduce you to the delusional TS

Usually it's obvious TDS he suffers from

Anyway, constant mental illness can be observed

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200,000 is a lot closer to 400,000 than 300 is to 200,000.

TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

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Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

---

Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

---

Aren't we around 200k? If so that's not closing in on. It's half.

---

Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

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I don't think we will end up near 400k for the year. We can revisit that in January though.

To you other point...is it? In a vacuum it surely is but in my business we teach "compared to what?" So, where are we at vs a normal year? Ie if 200k people died from COVID but 200k fewer died in traffic accidents because they weren't driving then it's not, in fact, an enormous death toll (for example). Further, as a raw number it's a lot, as a percentage of population it's unbelievably minimal.

As to why we can't do what other places did the answer is freedom. As a nation no places else on earth has the same level of overall freedom. It is a beautiful thing...it also makes it nearly impossible to get people to do much of anything. To compare to Asian countries is flawed, we simply don't operate like those places at all.

trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

---

Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

---

We really aren't closing in on WWII deaths. Nice try though

---

We're projected to be there by year end. I'd say that's closing in, wouldn't you?

TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

---

Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

---

We really aren't closing in on WWII deaths. Nice try though

---

We're projected to be there by year end. I'd say that's closing in, wouldn't you?

---

By a single person projecting, who's had to revise his projection outward about 6 times already. We're closing in on 400k like the S&P 500 is closing in on 6000

Jack Bauer said:

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F this.

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They should've called the funeral a protest

HashTag said:

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Quote:

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

---

Over 600,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time we ban fast food restaurants and fine people who help keep those establishments in business by purchasing their product.

We should also make it a law that everyone must join a gym and exercise a minimum of 150 minutes per week.

---

You're right, heart disease is tragic and largely preventable. However it is not a communicable disease that can be influenced by social interaction. Heart disease is largely due to poor dietary choices. But if we choose to eat a bad diet, it doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves. If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health.

You're right about fast food, and its a good idea not to patronize those businesses. We'd go along way toward reducing health care costs in this country if we ate healthy foods. Exercise it good for many reasons, but you cannot out exercise a bad diet.

10/6/20

DEATHS TO CASES (SINCE THE START)
7.75% - New Jersey
7.74% - Connecticut
7.07% - New York (NYC: 9.63%)
6.68% - Massachusetts
5.12% - New Hampshire
5.04% - Michigan
5.02% - Pennsylvania
4.46% - Rhode Island
4.07% - District of Columbia
3.29% - Louisiana
3.25% - Vermont
3.10% - Maryland
3.10% - Ohio
3.02% - Delaware
2.99% - Mississippi
2.97% - Illinois
2.94% - Indiana
2.93% - New Mexico
2.83% - Colorado
2.83% - USA AVERAGE
2.58% - Arizona
2.56% - Maine
2.38% - Washington
2.28% - South Carolina
2.22% - Georgia
2.15% - Virginia
2.15% - West Virginia
2.09% - Texas
2.07% - Florida
2.05% - Minnesota
2.03% - Nevada
1.96% - California
1.67% - North Carolina
1.66% - Kentucky
1.65% - Oregon
1.64% - Arkansas
1.64% - Missouri
1.61% - Alabama
1.49% - Iowa
1.35% - Puerto Rico
1.28% - Montana
1.28% - Tennessee
1.20% - Hawaii
1.16% - North Dakota
1.14% - Kansas
1.10% - Idaho
1.08% - Oklahoma
1.05% - Nebraska
1.02% - South Dakota
0.99% - Wisconsin
0.81% - Wyoming
0.69% - Alaska
0.62% - Utah

TexasScientist said:

---

HashTag said:

---

Quote:

---

Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

---

Over 600,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time we ban fast food restaurants and fine people who help keep those establishments in business by purchasing their product.

We should also make it a law that everyone must join a gym and exercise a minimum of 150 minutes per week.

---

You're right, heart disease is tragic and largely preventable. However it is not a communicable disease that can be influenced by social interaction. Heart disease is largely due to poor dietary choices. But if we choose to eat a bad diet, it doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves. If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health.

You're right about fast food, and its a good idea not to patronize those businesses. We'd go along way toward reducing health care costs in this country if we ate healthy foods. Exercise it good for many reasons, but you cannot out exercise a bad diet.

---

How about you don't tell me what I can eat?

How about you mind your own business and stop trying to control someone else?

TexasScientist said:

---

HashTag said:

---

Quote:

---

Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

---

Over 600,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time we ban fast food restaurants and fine people who help keep those establishments in business by purchasing their product.

We should also make it a law that everyone must join a gym and exercise a minimum of 150 minutes per week.

---

You're right, heart disease is tragic and largely preventable. However it is not a communicable disease that can be influenced by social interaction. Heart disease is largely due to poor dietary choices. But if we choose to eat a bad diet, it doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves. If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health.

---

"It doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves"??? Tell that to the 12 year old kid that lost a parent to (very preventable) heart disease.

Wow, you're an idiot...

"If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health."

Maybe we need to ban alcohol too.. you know, because of people's negligent behavior toward drinking and driving

Doc Holliday said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

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Some posters on here, given the chance, would never have ordered the invasion of the beaches of Normandy because it would have been estimated to lose too many lives. Lot's of General George B. McClellans on here. His attitude of "the enemy is always too big, and the other generals are too reckless, but by gosh, my men are well trained" almost lost the war for the North. He also almost became president. Would have been a disaster.

---

There is a difference in preventable deaths due to a manageable public health crisis, and the necessity of ordering people into combat for wartime military objectives knowing there will be deaths. They are irrelevant to each other, other than noting the historical significance about total deaths due to a crisis.

---

If you were President, what would you do to fight COVID?

---

You'd have to ramp up our testing capability where tests where essentially real time results are available to everyone without delay. Masking in public, social distancing, good hygiene, no large gatherings, contact tracing, and isolation and quarantine. It works in Taiwan, South Korea, New Zealand, and even Australia as examples, and there economies are not wrecked.

One thing people continuously fail to acknowledge is that human beings are a social creature. We Require social interaction for our mental and physical nourishment. At some point, even the most ardent distances/shutdown enthusiasts can no longer take it. It's a scientific fact. There's a reason loners are not the most common segment of society. Continually alternating between open up and shutdown is a horrific precedent to set in terms of how people allocate their social time, their business capital, their ambitions. It' creates a health and financial crisis in and of itself. So maybe just be a little cognizant of the outcomes of the decisions we espouse, even if many of yalls ilk has continually had trouble recognizing/measuring/realizing unintended consequences of measured actions.

Quote:

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Trey3216:
There's "a" projection, as in a single one, that has that many by year end. It ain't happening. That was after they had to push that number back from Aug 25th. They'll be pushing it back again. Just maniacal

---

And skeptics said the same thing about the model when it projected 200,000 by Labor Day.

TexasScientist said:

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Quote:

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Trey3216:
There's "a" projection, as in a single one, that has that many by year end. It ain't happening. That was after they had to push that number back from Aug 25th. They'll be pushing it back again. Just maniacal

---

And skeptics said the same thing about the model when it projected 200,000 by Labor Day.

---

Still waiting for the big Labor Day bump in cases. Two weeks until complete mayhem!!!

TexasScientist said:

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ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

---

Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

---

Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

---

Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

---

14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

---

You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

---

I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

---

Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

---

What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

---

Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

---

My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

---

If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

---

Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

---

I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

---

You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

---

Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

---

It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

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With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

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Due you have any idea the fortitude against a real death threat it took to storm the beaches at Normandy? And you're drawing the parallel to being cautious with Covid? C'mon!

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Read carefully and think about what I said. As I've already said in another response, I'm talking about an attitude, about the willingess of citizens to incovenience themselves personally and financially in order to support the war effort for everyone. People shouldered up and rationed, bought war bonds etc.in order to win the war and ultimately save lives. It appears some on this board don't have the same willingness and empathy for others. As far as hitting the beaches of Normandy, that required a huge step in that direction. The closest thing we have in this crisis is that of fronline health care professionals and workers.

President Draft Dodging Bone Spur has already indicated he knows nothing about Normandy, and thinks those who gave their lives are loosers, from his own statments. That's your guy who is mismanaging this crisis. So - C'mon!

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The disease is and has been aerosolized. The courage is to live life not hide from it. The attitude or belief we're going to quarantine, mask, and social distance our way out of this is absurd. Blame Trump, Cuomo, American attitudes or who/whatever, but it's firmly here and you or someone near you is going to get it if they haven't already And they'll be fine. Perhaps that realism is as valuable if not more so than the comfort some feel assuaged by with half measures of avoidance. Fortunately it's not a very dangerous enemy. Take your vitamin regimen, get outdoor exercise of some sort, and fight on.

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I already know six people who have died from Covid. So don't tell me it is not dangerous. Perhaps you're lucky not to know anyone who has died. The science behind quarantine, mask and social distance is valid, and is only part of the science driven policies successfully implemented by countries that have this under control. If we follow your views, this virus will burn its way through the country leaving a much larger wake of dead, and people suffering from associated Covid morbidity.

There is no good reason why our country cannot implement the policies, or a modification of policies of countries that have successfully managed the spread and consequently the deaths with Covid, without wrecking their economies. Inconveniencing (temporarily) some people for the health and public safety of everyone shouldn't even be a question.

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I'm not saying not to take precautions. I'm saying the precautions are only making a small impact, especially now that it's aerosolized. The washing and sanitizing will still be effective but social distancing and masking becomes less so, especially if you aren't masking with an N95. Our bodies are and will be the best defense against this virus for the foreseeable future, and whatever preventative methods are chosen seem to not have as much of an impact (California vs Georgia approach for example) due to the viral penetration across our country. We're also paying the price for our unhealthy lifestyles at some level, especially our immune health which is bolstered through nutrition or degraded through age and lifestyle.

We are incomparable to other nations on so many levels, and even if we thought we could do something similar, the virus is too widespread to go backwards, unless you're talking draconian lockdowns for months. So here we are either needing to be realistic about the efficacy of what some believe will save us, or simply do our best to prep and be ready to live with COVID even more so than we have. .

trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

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Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

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Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

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Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

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14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

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You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

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I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

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Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

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What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

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Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

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My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

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If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

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Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

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I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

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You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

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Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

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It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

---

With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

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Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

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Aren't we around 200k? If so that's not closing in on. It's half.

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

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There's "a" projection, as in a single one, that has that many by year end. It ain't happening. That was after they had to push that number back from Aug 25th. They'll be pushing it back again. Just maniacal

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And skeptics said the same thing about the model when it projected 200,000 by Labor Day.

trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Quote:

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Trey3216:
There's "a" projection, as in a single one, that has that many by year end. It ain't happening. That was after they had to push that number back from Aug 25th. They'll be pushing it back again. Just maniacal

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And skeptics said the same thing about the model when it projected 200,000 by Labor Day.

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Still waiting for the big Labor Day bump in cases. Two weeks until complete mayhem!!!

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There's a pretty good bump going on now.

trey3216 said:

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One thing people continuously fail to acknowledge is that human beings are a social creature. We Require social interaction for our mental and physical nourishment. At some point, even the most ardent distances/shutdown enthusiasts can no longer take it. It's a scientific fact. There's a reason loners are not the most common segment of society. Continually alternating between open up and shutdown is a horrific precedent to set in terms of how people allocate their social time, their business capital, their ambitions. It' creates a health and financial crisis in and of itself. So maybe just be a little cognizant of the outcomes of the decisions we espouse, even if many of yalls ilk has continually had trouble recognizing/measuring/realizing unintended consequences of measured actions.

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Let's not inconvenience ourselves.

Quote:

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nein51:
I don't think we will end up near 400k for the year. We can revisit that in January though.

To you other point...is it? In a vacuum it surely is but in my business we teach "compared to what?" So, where are we at vs a normal year? Ie if 200k people died from COVID but 200k fewer died in traffic accidents because they weren't driving then it's not, in fact, an enormous death toll (for example). Further, as a raw number it's a lot, as a percentage of population it's unbelievably minimal.

As to why we can't do what other places did the answer is freedom. As a nation no places else on earth has the same level of overall freedom. It is a beautiful thing...it also makes it nearly impossible to get people to do much of anything. To compare to Asian countries is flawed, we simply don't operate like those places at all.

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You're comparing accidents with a preventable communicable pathogen. The US excess mortality over all causes relative to what would be expected shows you the disparity. At the end of September the US excess death rate per million was 627. Just from March to July in 2020 the US had 207,044 excess deaths, which implies Covid has been undercounted as many experts believe.
https://voxeu.org/article/us-excess-mortality-rate-covid-19-substantially-worse-europe-s

What freedom are you giving up? Is it really giving up freedom temporarily to wear a mask in public during a crisis, or social distance, or not gather in large crowds when other peoples health is a risk, besides your own? Was it giving up freedom in WWII to cooperate with rationing, to buy war bonds etc. to support a war effort in a world crisis? Is conscripted military service an unwarranted taking of freedom? Do you wear a seat belt, or clothes for that matter? No one is unreasonably giving up any freedom on a permanent basis.

The last I checked New Zealand and Australia are not Asian, and they are still free countries. Freedom comes with responsibility to others, and doesn't give the right to impose your pursuit of personal freedom at the harm, and detriment of others. The laws in this country, in general, don't allow unbridled acts of freedom to the detriment of others.

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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HashTag said:

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

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Over 600,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time we ban fast food restaurants and fine people who help keep those establishments in business by purchasing their product.

We should also make it a law that everyone must join a gym and exercise a minimum of 150 minutes per week.

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You're right, heart disease is tragic and largely preventable. However it is not a communicable disease that can be influenced by social interaction. Heart disease is largely due to poor dietary choices. But if we choose to eat a bad diet, it doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves. If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health.

You're right about fast food, and its a good idea not to patronize those businesses. We'd go along way toward reducing health care costs in this country if we ate healthy foods. Exercise it good for many reasons, but you cannot out exercise a bad diet.

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How about you don't tell me what I can eat?

How about you mind your own business and stop trying to control someone else?

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Control? I've never told you what you can or cannot eat. I've told you what is in your best interest in terms of overall health, and ability to avoid heart disease, diabetes (type 2), and other chronic disease, including some cancers. I'm just trying to help you out. What you do with that is your business.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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HashTag said:

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Quote:

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

---

Over 600,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time we ban fast food restaurants and fine people who help keep those establishments in business by purchasing their product.

We should also make it a law that everyone must join a gym and exercise a minimum of 150 minutes per week.

---

You're right, heart disease is tragic and largely preventable. However it is not a communicable disease that can be influenced by social interaction. Heart disease is largely due to poor dietary choices. But if we choose to eat a bad diet, it doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves. If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health.

You're right about fast food, and its a good idea not to patronize those businesses. We'd go along way toward reducing health care costs in this country if we ate healthy foods. Exercise it good for many reasons, but you cannot out exercise a bad diet.

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How about you don't tell me what I can eat?

How about you mind your own business and stop trying to control someone else?

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Control? I've never told you what you can or cannot eat. I've told you what is in your best interest in terms of overall health, and ability to avoid heart disease, diabetes (type 2), and other chronic disease, including some cancers. I'm just trying to help you out. What you do with that is your business.

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Yeah, sure, 'just trying to help out' like suggesting that guy with the kosher deli needs to wear a yellow star ... for his protection, don't you know.

nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

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Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

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Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

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Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

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14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

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You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

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I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

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Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

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What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

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Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

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My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

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If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

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Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

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I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

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You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

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Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

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It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

---

Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

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With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

---

407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

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Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

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Aren't we around 200k? If so that's not closing in on. It's half.

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

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I don't think we will end up near 400k for the year. We can revisit that in January though.

To you other point...is it? In a vacuum it surely is but in my business we teach "compared to what?" So, where are we at vs a normal year? Ie if 200k people died from COVID but 200k fewer died in traffic accidents because they weren't driving then it's not, in fact, an enormous death toll (for example). Further, as a raw number it's a lot, as a percentage of population it's unbelievably minimal.

As to why we can't do what other places did the answer is freedom. As a nation no places else on earth has the same level of overall freedom. It is a beautiful thing...it also makes it nearly impossible to get people to do much of anything. To compare to Asian countries is flawed, we simply don't operate like those places at all.

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to this point in the year there have been over 200,000 excess deaths. So the as compared to is pretty simple: 200,000 Americans not being dead; the COvid death toll has simply not been offset by decreases in other mortalities.

To me the real comparison questions are what would he death toll and economic results have been under alternate courses of action?


https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/09/01/comorbidities-and-coronavirus-deaths-cdc/

HashTag said:

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TexasScientist said:

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HashTag said:

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

---

Over 600,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time we ban fast food restaurants and fine people who help keep those establishments in business by purchasing their product.

We should also make it a law that everyone must join a gym and exercise a minimum of 150 minutes per week.

---

You're right, heart disease is tragic and largely preventable. However it is not a communicable disease that can be influenced by social interaction. Heart disease is largely due to poor dietary choices. But if we choose to eat a bad diet, it doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves. If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health.

---

"It doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves"??? Tell that to the 12 year old kid that lost a parent to (very preventable) heart disease.

Wow, you're an idiot...

"If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health."

Maybe we need to ban alcohol too.. you know, because of people's negligent behavior toward drinking and driving

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The point is and the context is one is communicable and the other isn't. But you really know that, or you would be the idiot. Of course death by any means effects family and friends. I'm glad you agree.

Ad hominem attacks doesn't change a valid point.

Again, you confuse communicable disease with negligent acts. We have laws that already address negligent behavior, drinking and driving. I guess you think those are an unwarranted restriction on your personal freedom also.

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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HashTag said:

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Quote:

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

---

Over 600,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time we ban fast food restaurants and fine people who help keep those establishments in business by purchasing their product.

We should also make it a law that everyone must join a gym and exercise a minimum of 150 minutes per week.

---

You're right, heart disease is tragic and largely preventable. However it is not a communicable disease that can be influenced by social interaction. Heart disease is largely due to poor dietary choices. But if we choose to eat a bad diet, it doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves. If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health.

You're right about fast food, and its a good idea not to patronize those businesses. We'd go along way toward reducing health care costs in this country if we ate healthy foods. Exercise it good for many reasons, but you cannot out exercise a bad diet.

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How about you don't tell me what I can eat?

How about you mind your own business and stop trying to control someone else?

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Control? I've never told you what you can or cannot eat. I've told you what is in your best interest in terms of overall health, and ability to avoid heart disease, diabetes (type 2), and other chronic disease, including some cancers. I'm just trying to help you out. What you do with that is your business.

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Yeah, sure, 'just trying to help out' like suggesting that guy with the kosher deli needs to wear a yellow star ... for his protection, don't you know.

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Don't be silly,

nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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trey3216 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Florda_mike said:

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TexasScientist said:

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What else would you expect from DeSantis. DeSantis is one of the main causal factors for Florida having the 5th highest death rate in the US.

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Sounds like DeSantis and Trump are synonymous to this liar

5th highest? LMAO

As we had New Yorkers running from democrat bastion NY to our state

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Truth = 5th 14,022 deaths. I don't think their families are "LMAO."

Or, sounds like your regular ad hominem attacks are synonymous with your indefensible views.

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Sounds like you don't know what a rate is, as opposed to a nominal number.

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14,000 and climbing is not a nominal number, and the rate is not something to dismiss as insignificant. A misstep in word choice doesn't negate reality.

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You are correct that it isn't a "nominal number" as nominal would refer to refer to categorical data. It is a whole number. It is not, as you earlier claimed, a rate. When considering data to determine how big a number is compared with other numbers, a rate is the appropriate way to do that analysis. If one city has a population of one million and 100 people die, that is a very different scenario from a city with 150 people where 100 people die. In this case, you misrepresented the data. Maybe it was an honest mistake because you are ignorant, maybe you are just a liar. It seems clear that you sought to make Florida look much worse than it actually is compared to other states.

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I understand rate and I think you know that, since you obviously read and commented on my latest post. You're down in the statistical woods now. The fact is 14,000 and growing deaths is significant and serious, and Florida is one of the worst in terms of deaths. And based on the rates posted above, it is one of the worst in rates if 15th is correct. Florida has greater than 14,000 deaths in large part due to how the Governor has responded to the crisis by following Trump's lead. Only willful disregard for political reasons, or ignorance prevents your recognition of the facts.

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Florida is about average in the United States when it comes to COVID death rates per 100,000 of population. This is not an instance of being "one of the worst in terms of death," this is a case of being right in the middle in terms of deaths.

Florida also has a higher percentage of old people (more susceptible to dying from the virus) than any other state. One would expect them to have, all other things being equal, a higher rate of deaths from COVID than other states based on the larger percentage of their population in the 75-plus age bracket.

The numbers don't lie. Only willful disregard for basic statistical analysis, likely for political reasons, or your ignorance, prevents you from recognizing that Florida is not an outlier among the states when it comes to COVID deaths.

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What you ignore is that the total deaths in this country were unnecessary and avoidable. Florida has a huge death count, not to mention the US total, because we ignored the science. Taiwan has a larger population than Florida, higher population density, and the last I checked 7 deaths and viable economy. All because, as Taiwan's former VP says, they followed science. We've half heartedly given a token scientific response to this pandemic for political purposes, and now we have over 200,000 deaths and climbing, not to mention the 'long haul' morbidity we are just now beginning to recognize.

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Your argument was specifically about Florida and it was that Florida, because of the policies it implemented, was much worse than other states in the United States. That argument is not supported by the data.

If you would like to concede that you were wrong and try another argument, you are free to do so. You are not, however, free to pretend that you were correct in your initial argument by trying to move the goalposts with another argument.

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My whole approach throughout all of these various threads is that US (Florida) policies have failed. When you get to the bottom line of this, you shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another because they all are abject failures in terms of death count and probably morbidity. You have to stand US (Florida) policy up against other successful countries in terms of death count, which is what really matters, and the US (Florida) fail miserably. There is a reason we lead the world in global death count and Covid cases, and patting ourselves on the back won't change that. - - - And Florida is worse than many other states, not that that says much - they're all bad.

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If you "shouldn't evaluate/compare one state against another," then why did you do exactly that?

As for Florida being "worse than many other states," that's what "average" means. It is worse than many other state and better than many other states.

It is just as likely, probably moreso, that the reason we lead the world in global death count has to do with the fact that we are populous, old and fat than it does with particular government policies being different from those in some other country. There may also be any number of other reasons for variations in death rates, including preexisting immunity or genetic variation, but you are immediately jumping to the idea that government policy is the cause of any variance in the course of the pandemic. Your reasoning also ignores the cultural differences between the United States and many other nations. In short, you aren't using sound reasoning to come to your conclusions.

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Sure I am. You're trying to excuse the inexcusable. What you say is a factor in deaths, but it is not the determining factor in stopping or controlling the virus. The virus doesn't distinguish cultural differences. It's a biological acting pathogen. Science on how to control this virus is universally the same. Those countries that have committed the resources, followed the science, regardless of culture or health demographics have been successful, because the virus is controlled before it can get widespread into the health compromised populous. We are third or fourth in world population and have 25% of the global deaths, in spite of being one of the better in health care.

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I am not "excusing" anything. I am pointing out that you are engaged in deeply flawed reasoning.

Cultural differences would certainly be expected to have a significant effect on how the virus spreads.

Here's how Taiwan did it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/taiwan-coronavirus-surveillance-masks-china-2020-6

You could not do this in American culture, and you are an idiot if you think you could.

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You absolutely can accomplish the same thing in our culture. You may have to modify some things, but the basics of what they are doing we can do with leadership and strategy from the White House. Cultural differences are a minor part of how the virus spreads. The basics of how it spreads is universal around the world. Any cultural influence is only a means facilitating the same mode and method of virus transmission. There are culturally different countries with success. Put another way again, we have < 5% of the world population and roughly 25% of the global cases and deaths, in a country with resources and means to effectively control it, but for politicization and failed leadership.

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Good luck at installing a police state overnight in the United States.

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It doesn't require a police state. It requires leadership and effective communication, education, persuasion and encouragement of people to cooperate for common public health and safety.

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Translating TS:

"Leadership" - government deciding what rights they will allow citizens
"Effective communication" - fines and arrests of anyone who complains
"Education" - the State is always right (cf North Korea)
"Persuasion" - fines and arrests
"Encouragement to cooperate" - media propaganda and arrests
"Safety" - incarceration in your own home

With all due respect, hell no.

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With all due respect, I would expect out of your lack of understanding, intolerance for inconvenience, and self interest, for you to carry the simple to the extreme, with no concern for others. The same attitude permeated the super spreader event on the White House lawn. We would have lost WWII with your mindset. People shouldn't have to die in these numbers, just because you don't want to be inconvenienced.

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407,000 US soldiers died during WW2. I'm going to wager none of them were 70+ years old. Hardly an apt comparison.

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Irrelevant, except that we're closing in on the total US WWII deaths. I'm talking about the collective sacrifice our citizens made in order to support and even fund the war effort.

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Aren't we around 200k? If so that's not closing in on. It's half.

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

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I don't think we will end up near 400k for the year. We can revisit that in January though.

To you other point...is it? In a vacuum it surely is but in my business we teach "compared to what?" So, where are we at vs a normal year? Ie if 200k people died from COVID but 200k fewer died in traffic accidents because they weren't driving then it's not, in fact, an enormous death toll (for example). Further, as a raw number it's a lot, as a percentage of population it's unbelievably minimal.

As to why we can't do what other places did the answer is freedom. As a nation no places else on earth has the same level of overall freedom. It is a beautiful thing...it also makes it nearly impossible to get people to do much of anything. To compare to Asian countries is flawed, we simply don't operate like those places at all.

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You're comparing accidents with a preventable communicable pathogen. The US excess mortality over all causes relative to what would be expected shows you the disparity. At the end of September the US excess death rate per million was 627. Just from March to July in 2020 the US had 207,044 excess deaths, which implies Covid has been undercounted as many experts believe.
https://voxeu.org/article/us-excess-mortality-rate-covid-19-substantially-worse-europe-s

What freedom are you giving up? Is it really giving up freedom temporarily to wear a mask in public during a crisis, or social distance, or not gather in large crowds when other peoples health is a risk, besides your own? Was it giving up freedom in WWII to cooperate with rationing, to buy war bonds etc. to support a war effort in a world crisis? Is conscripted military service an unwarranted taking of freedom? Do you wear a seat belt, or clothes for that matter? No one is unreasonably giving up any freedom on a permanent basis.

The last I checked New Zealand and Australia are not Asian, and they are still free countries. Freedom comes with responsibility to others, and doesn't give the right to impose your pursuit of personal freedom at the harm, and detriment of others. The laws in this country, in general, don't allow unbridled acts of freedom to the detriment of others.

TexasScientist said:

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HashTag said:

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TexasScientist said:

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HashTag said:

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

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Over 600,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time we ban fast food restaurants and fine people who help keep those establishments in business by purchasing their product.

We should also make it a law that everyone must join a gym and exercise a minimum of 150 minutes per week.

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You're right, heart disease is tragic and largely preventable. However it is not a communicable disease that can be influenced by social interaction. Heart disease is largely due to poor dietary choices. But if we choose to eat a bad diet, it doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves. If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health.

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"It doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves"??? Tell that to the 12 year old kid that lost a parent to (very preventable) heart disease.

Wow, you're an idiot...

"If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health."

Maybe we need to ban alcohol too.. you know, because of people's negligent behavior toward drinking and driving

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The point is and the context is one is communicable and the other isn't. But you really know that, or you would be the idiot. Of course death by any means effects family and friends. I'm glad you agree.

Ad hominem attacks doesn't change a valid point.

Again, you confuse communicable disease with negligent acts. We have laws that already address negligent behavior, drinking and driving. I guess you think those are an unwarranted restriction on your personal freedom also.

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I'm just taking the liberal's cue and way of thought here.

If you think the gov't should force people to wear a mask because they might be sick, then we need the gov't to ban alcohol because they might get drunk (and especially drive).

If you're for the gov't requiring people to behave a certain way (by forcing them to wear a mask), then to protect families and children, the gov't should ban fast food because you might get fat, unhealthy and develop heart disease and die.

I'm glad you think your point is valid, but it's not. If behavior can affect others, then why not force or ban it all? Huh?? Would you get behind that?

On the flip side, if someone is diagnosed with a communicable disease, then sure, make them a wear a mask...

You're nothing more than a triggered hack with a chronic case of TDS

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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HashTag said:

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Quote:

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Projected 400,000 by year end. It took four years to reach that total in WWII. 200,000 is 200,000. It is an enormous death toll.

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Over 600,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time we ban fast food restaurants and fine people who help keep those establishments in business by purchasing their product.

We should also make it a law that everyone must join a gym and exercise a minimum of 150 minutes per week.

---

You're right, heart disease is tragic and largely preventable. However it is not a communicable disease that can be influenced by social interaction. Heart disease is largely due to poor dietary choices. But if we choose to eat a bad diet, it doesn't affect anyone else but ourselves. If we choose to be negligent with our behavior toward Covid, it can actually cause someone's death or damage to their overall health.

You're right about fast food, and its a good idea not to patronize those businesses. We'd go along way toward reducing health care costs in this country if we ate healthy foods. Exercise it good for many reasons, but you cannot out exercise a bad diet.

---

How about you don't tell me what I can eat?

How about you mind your own business and stop trying to control someone else?

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Control? I've never told you what you can or cannot eat. I've told you what is in your best interest in terms of overall health, and ability to avoid heart disease, diabetes (type 2), and other chronic disease, including some cancers. I'm just trying to help you out. What you do with that is your business.

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Yeah, sure, 'just trying to help out' like suggesting that guy with the kosher deli needs to wear a yellow star ... for his protection, don't you know.

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Don't be silly,

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I'm deadly serious. I know your side's history.

BY REGION

DEATHS BY CASES
6.53% - New England (15,777 / 241,684)
6.24% - Mid-Atlantic (62,518 / 1,002,306)
2.48% - Midwest (33,564 / 1,355,571)
2.12% - Southwest (23,681 / 1,114,705)
2.07% - South (48,913 / 2,359,370)
1.89% - West (23,980 / 1,267,770)

DEATHS BY POPULATION
0.128% - Mid-Atlantic (62,518 / 48,984,672)
0.106% - New England (15,777 / 14,940,941)
0.057% - South (48,913 / 85,934,710)
0.055% - Southwest (23,681 / 42,902,250)
0.049% - Midwest (33,564 / 68,626,970)
0.034% - West (23,980 / 69,929,637)

CASES BY POPULATION
2.75% - South (2,359,370 / 85,934,710)
2.60% - Southwest (1,114,705 / 42,902,250)
2.05% - Mid-Atlantic (1,002,306 / 48,984,672)
1.98% - Midwest (1,355,571 / 68,626,970)
1.81% - West (1,267,770 / 69,929,637)
1.62% - New England (241,684 / 14,940,941)

NEW ENGLAND
7.74% - Connecticut (4,513 / 58,297)
6.68% - Massachusetts (9,503 / 142,336)
5.12% - New Hampshire (443 / 8,645)
4.46% - Rhode Island (1,118 / 25,076)
3.25% - Vermont (58 / 1,785)
2.56% - Maine (142 / 5,545)

MID-ATLANTIC
7.75% - New Jersey (16,136 / 208,202)
7.07% - New York (32,929 / 465,896)
5.02% - Pennsylvania (8,216 / 163,535)
4.07% - District of Columbia (631 / 15,519)
3.10% - Maryland (3,961 / 127,791)
3.02% - Delaware (645 / 21,363)

SOUTH
3.29% - Louisiana (5,577 / 169,719)
2.99% - Mississippi (3,013 / 100,703)
2.28% - South Carolina (3,453 / 151,582)
2.22% - Georgia (7,162 / 322,925)
2.15% - West Virginia (358 / 16,628)
2.15% - Virginia (3,276 / 152,557)
2.07% - Florida (14,671 / 707,751)
1.67% - North Carolina (3,634 / 217,496)
1.66% - Kentucky (1,209 / 72,617)
1.64% - Arkansas (1,425 / 87,013)
1.61% - Alabama (2,558 / 159,169)
1.28% - Tennessee (2,577 / 201,210)

MIDWEST
5.04% - Michigan (7,124 / 141,271)
3.10% - Ohio (4,925 / 158,907)
2.97% - Illinois (9,040 / 304,280)
2.94% - Indiana (3,674 / 125,146)
2.05% - Minnesota (2,133 / 103,826)
1.64% - Missouri (2,173 / 132,431)
1.49% - Iowa (1,383 / 92,584)
1.16% - North Dakota (277 / 23,862)
1.14% - Kansas (698 / 61,111)
1.05% - Nebraska (501 / 47,807)
1.02% - South Dakota (248 / 24,418)
0.99% - Wisconsin (1,388 / 139,928)

SOUTHWEST
2.93% - New Mexico (892 / 30,477)
2.58% - Arizona (5,706 / 220,754)
2.09% - Texas (16,025 / 765,894)
1.08% - Oklahoma (1,058 / 97,580)

WEST
2.83% - Colorado (2,067 / 73,076)
2.38% - Washington (2,142 / 89,874)
2.03% - Nevada (1,665 / 82,204)
1.96% - California (16,120 / 823,729)
1.65% - Oregon (572 / 34,770)
1.28% - Montana (187 / 14,635)
1.20% - Hawaii (156 / 12,991)
1.10% - Idaho (482 / 43,964)
0.81% - Wyoming (53 / 6,504)
0.69% - Alaska (58 / 8,405)
0.62% - Utah (478 / 77,618)

https://gbdeclaration.org/

TL;DR
Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19.
Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal.

Signed by
1,889 Medical & Public Health Scientists
2,134 Medical Practitioners

As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice.

Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.

Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza.

As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all including the vulnerable falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity i.e. the point at which the rate of new infections is stable and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity.

The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection.

Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent PCR testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals.

Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.

On October 4, 2020, this declaration was authored and signed in Great Barrington, United States, by:

Dr. Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring of infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.

Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.

Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.