Do you realize you're promoting a conspiracy theory that shows mail in voting is corruptible while insisting on mail in voting?

HuMcK said:

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Y'all get it yet?

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Do I get the relationship between correlation and causation?
Yes, I do. Do I understand the concept of a spurious correlation? Yes, I do.

One would expect more mail capacity is centered around densely populated urban areas. Where else, if you needed to cut, would you have the ability to cut? You are required to have a level of service everywhere.

An argument can be made as to whether these cuts should be made, but what you have posted here doesn't tell us much of anything. It does not tell us how much the volume of mail has declined (yes, contrary to what you said before, the volume of mail has declined). It does not tell us what percentage of capacity these reductions represent. These are all things that would be necessary to know when evaluating whether these capacity reductions would have any measurable effect on voting.

I note that you entirely ignored the fact that you were 100 percent wrong when you said the volume of mail was increasing. Why is that?

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Gruvin said:

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HuMcK said:

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Lol ok, I guess I shouldn't have believed my lying eyes then, all the sorting equipment removals and rules changes are just being done for fun. The problem you have here is I can point to a wealth of evidence, you seem to be making a bunch of unsupported statements and acting like that's the obvious truth.

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point to evidence please

My evidence starts with this plan to revamp the post office months ago when Trump was looking to win by a good margin(prior to covid) and 2.2 billion loss last quarter. Totally unsustainable, that is an unsustainable business model requiring revamp or close.

This is a boogey man finger pointing tactic to get people worked up.

No need to mail everyone a ballot anyway. Go to the polls and vote. If you can go to grocery store and kids can go back to school, you can go vote in person.

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Yep....

Liberals trying to change rules that have been in place for over 200 years just days before an election in an effort to steal the White House.

If you can't win it, then engineer it.

If all these democrats truly care about the integrity of our election, then they are more than free to delay it (until it's safe to go outside) and require every voter to show up in person with ID in hand, that way they can make sure that no Russians are here voting for Trump.

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Change the rules? What are you talking about? 34 states already allow no-excuse mail in voting. The other 16 allow mail votes in defined situations. Mailed ballots have been around forever.

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There's a difference between requesting an absentee ballot and a mass ballot mail out, which most democrats want to see happen.

So yeah, trying to change the rules

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There is a rule against mailing out ballots that are not specifically requested? Could you send cite that rule for us?

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Where's a rule that states we must mail out millions upon millions of ballots, does the constitution even guarantee someone the right to cast an absentee vote before election day?

So if 34 states already allow no-excuse mail in voting and the other 16 states allow mail voted in certain situations, then why should the federal government hastily mail out millions upon millions ballots? Sounds like voters can already vote by mail. Problem averted.

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There is no rule saying we have to do it; there doesn't need to be. It is the states' decisions as to whether they want to do it. One reason for sending them out without request is that it eliminates the need to request, cutting the mailing/telephone calls/emails in half. A second reason is that it allows the ballots to be out early and returned early so there is less wait time on the actual election date. A third reason is that the whoever runs the voting can be sure ballots are sent to registered address rather than the requested address.

Trumpkins are really petrified of democracy.

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So you think that hastily mailing out million upon millions of votes to those that never requested one, couldn't be wrought with fraud?

You don't think that ballots could be filled out and signatures forged?

You don't think that dead people could receive ballots?

On the contrary, us Trumpkins, love democracy....I think every American citizen should show up and cast their one vote. I would love for every American to show up.

How about a compromise... I've never been a fan of absentee votes or early voting... but how about this... how about we allow every American to request an absentee vote if they want one and how about we lengthen the early voting period. We can even increase the number of voting locations too.

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I'm all for your compromise.

You realize, of course, that it is 180 degrees opposite of what the GOP has done on voting for the past 20 years.

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Glad to see you're willing to compromise.

And actually, both parties have played election games for more than 200 years. Not just the GOP

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Not really interested in Martin Van Buren's election tricks. For the past 25 years and right up to now, its been the GOP who has tried its hardest to keep people from voting.

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You just really wanting to argue aren't ya'?

Let me guess; dems, goooood and GOP, baaaaaad.... all the time everytime.

If you believe that, you're a bigger clown than I already think.

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Its just that whataboutism from 200 years ago isn't all that convincing to me. Call me crazy.

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You're not crazy.....merely short sighted .

HuMcK said:

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Imagine that.

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I note again that you have yet to address the lies you were spreading earlier when you falsely claimed that mail capacity was being cut in the face of increased volume when the truth is that mail volume has been decreasing, not increasing. Why don't you want to address that?

D. C. Bear said:

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HuMcK said:

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Imagine that.

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I note again that you have yet to address the lies you were spreading earlier when you falsely claimed that mail capacity was being cut in the face of increased volume when the truth is that mail volume has been decreasing, not increasing. Why don't you want to address that?

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Because those are words you put in my mouth that I never said. I didn't say overall volume increased, I said there was unprecedented demand for mail-in ballots, which is true. I'm still waiting to hear your innocent explanation for such drastic cuts to capacity and manpower in a pandemic election year with that unprecedented demand, since we are bringing up old queries. And just because you replied to it without acknowledging in any way, do you have no issues with these decisions being made, in an election year, by heavy-hitting GOP donors?

HuMcK said:

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Imagine that.

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Moscow Mitch!

HuMcK said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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HuMcK said:

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Imagine that.

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I note again that you have yet to address the lies you were spreading earlier when you falsely claimed that mail capacity was being cut in the face of increased volume when the truth is that mail volume has been decreasing, not increasing. Why don't you want to address that?

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Because those are words you put in my mouth that I never said. I didn't say overall volume increased, I said there was unprecedented demand for mail-in ballots, which is true. I'm still waiting to hear your innocent explanation for such drastic cuts to capacity and manpower in a pandemic election year with that unprecedented demand, since we are bringing up old queries. And just because you replied to it without acknowledging in any way, do you have no issues with these decisions being made, in an election year, by heavy-hitting GOP donors?

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I am not putting words in your mouth that you did not say. Here are your words:

"Long term declining mail volume...except for the huge spike in demand due to the pandemic...to which the admin has responded by demonizing mail ballots and removing sorting capacity, among other things I have already detailed (but you pointedly declined to even aknowledge)."

These are your words, and they are false. There is no "huge spike in demand due to the pandemic." The volume of letters has declined. Packages and shipping volume has gone up, but volume for the letter sorting machines you are so fixated on has decreased significantly.

https://about.usps.com/newsroom/national-releases/2020/0807-usps-reports-third-quarter-fiscal-2020-results.htm

"First-Class Mail and Marketing Mail have seen deep volume declines associated with the pandemic, and that lost volume may never return, as was the case following the Great Recession of 2007-2009."

Volume in the 3rd quarter for mail (first class and marketing) decreased from about 30,000,000,000 to 22,000,000,000 compared with 2019, so that's an reduction of 8,000,000,000 pieces for the quarter. There is plenty of room to "remove capacity" without impacting the ability to handle ballots. In addition, the USPS has said it is suspending those capacity reductions until after the election (which is, in all likelihood, a wasteful and unnecessary step).

Like Trump, you are promoting a crisis where one does not exist.

Not even close to my first statement on the topic and the context should be clear, but fine we can play that stupid game if you want. You're still avoiding myquestions though.

Why is trump doing this in an election year, especially after all the heat it's gotten? Why are we reducing USPS capacity and simultaneously seeing delays if mail volume is as trivial these days as you portray it? Why are GOP election authorities removing drop boxes and changing post-mark date rules while Trump makes it abundantly clear he fears mail-in ballots? You spend a lot of time parsing language that isnt really important, and to me it seems like a mechanism to avoid actually grappling with the subject at hand, because you damn sure haven't offered any real defense of it, just nebulous claims that things are not what they seem and I am being played somehow.

I dont expect you to believe my anecdotal evidence, but 2 people I went to HS with (graduating class of 32, so we knew each other) work for USPS sorting and distribution facilities in Austin and say things are even worse than reported. One of them was even a staunch Trumper before this, now he wants to see DeJoy in handcuffs.

HuMcK said:

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Not even close to my first statement on the topic and the context should be clear, but fine we can play that stupid game if you want. You're still avoiding myquestions though.

Why is trump doing this in an election year, especially after all the heat it's gotten? Why are we reducing USPS capacity and simultaneously seeing delays if mail volume is as trivial these days as you portray it? Why are GOP election authorities removing drop boxes and changing post-mark date rules while Trump makes it abundantly clear he fears mail-in ballots? You spend a lot of time parsing language that isnt really important, and to me it seems like a mechanism to avoid actually grappling with the subject at hand, because you damn sure haven't offered any real defense of it, just nebulous claims that things are not what they seem and I am being played somehow.

I dont expect you to believe my anecdotal evidence, but 2 people I went to HS with (graduating class of 32, so we knew each other) work for USPS sorting and distribution facilities in Austin and say things are even worse than reported. One of them was even a staunch Trumper before this, now he wants to see DeJoy in handcuffs.

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Don't you know that Trump will lie for political purposes? He is no different from the Democrats on this. He is promoting the lie of vote fraud, the Democrats are promoting the lie that the USPS can't handle mailed ballots. Trump said they don't have the money for universal mail in ballots, so they couldn't do it (never mind that elections are run by states and counties, not the Federal government). Then the media lied basically telling us that Trump said he was going to stop any mail in ballots.

The numbers, however, do not lie, and they are not "nebulous." Mail volume (not shipping and packages) has declined drastically. There is no lack of capacity, and Trump couldn't make it go away if he wanted to. The USPS has access to money to continue operations until at least March 2021should they need it. At this point, no doubt President Biden will be able to bail them out, thus paying off the postal union that endorsed him for office and the postal service can continue to hemorrhage cash for the foreseeable future.

They don't all get to make such substantial and obviously partisan decisions in an election year. I welcome your counter-example if you know of one.

HuMcK said:

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They don't all get to make such substantial and obviously partisan decisions in an election year. I welcome your counter-example if you know of one.

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These are not "obviously partisan decisions in an election year," and are not "substantial" at all as related to the election other than politicians like Trump and various Democrats trying to get their voters riled up. It worked on you.

Yes I heard you, keep telling yourself whatever it takes to remain indifferent. These drastic steps in an election year are all an elaborate hoax, it's TDS to be concerned.

I keep telling you how this isn't just about equipment removals and showing other examples (hiring freeze, overtime freeze, unprecedented and unexplained recent delays in delivery that you dont even pretend to acknowledge, removal of drop boxes, etc), you keep ignoring it and pretending those things arent relevant to defend your watered down straw-man version of what's happening, around and around we go. Trumpism \_()_/.

HuMcK said:

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I keep telling you how this isn't just about equipment removals and showing other examples (hiring freeze, overtime freeze, unprecedented and unexplained recent delays in delivery that you dont even pretend to acknowledge, removal of drop boxes, etc), you keep ignoring it and pretending those things arent relevant to defend your watered down straw-man version of what's happening, around and around we go. Trumpism \_()_/.

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Removal of drop boxes is routine and has been for years.
They are losing billions even in good times. The pandemic makes it worse. They need to be freezing hiring and overtime. They need to get costs in line with revenue, and that means reducing some service. They need to be getting their sorting capacity in line with demand. The difference between how you have handled this issue and how I have handled it is that I have researched a variety of sources, including primary sources, and have examined actual data, while you have posted partisan and/or misleading tweets.

D. C. Bear said:

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HuMcK said:

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I keep telling you how this isn't just about equipment removals and showing other examples (hiring freeze, overtime freeze, unprecedented and unexplained recent delays in delivery that you dont even pretend to acknowledge, removal of drop boxes, etc), you keep ignoring it and pretending those things arent relevant to defend your watered down straw-man version of what's happening, around and around we go. Trumpism \_()_/.

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Removal of drop boxes is routine and has been for years.
They are losing billions even in good times. The pandemic makes it worse. They need to be freezing hiring and overtime. They need to get costs in line with revenue, and that means reducing some service. They need to be getting their sorting capacity in line with demand. The difference between how you have handled this issue and how I have handled it is that I have researched a variety of sources, including primary sources, and have examined actual data, while you have posted partisan and/or misleading tweets.

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But the tweets confirm his bias. Did you take that into consideration? Did you? Did you?

Ok, why the unprecedented delays then? Given that they exist, DeJoy even acknowledged them, why go forward with these changes (which are signifigant, no matter how badly you want it to be otherwise) when you know more people than ever are requesting mail-ballots?

You just keep downplaying, but these changes are having demonstrable negative effects in service, why are you ok with that? Why do you feel the instinctual need to make this some "both sides" bullsht? Seems like straight up bad faith to me.

HuMcK said:

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Ok, why the unprecedented delays then? Given that they exist, DeJoy even acknowledged them, why go forward with these changes (which are signifigant, no matter how badly you want it to be otherwise) when you know more people than ever are requesting mail-ballots?

You just keep downplaying, but these changes are having demonstrable negative effects in service, why are you ok with that? Why do you feel the instinctual need to make this some "both sides" bullsht? Seems like straight up bad faith to me.

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If you're talking to me, I didn't make a both sides argument here. I only do that when it is applicable. I was just pointing to your confirmation bias tendency, that is all.

I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation that I haven't said in this thread and other threads.

HuMcK said:

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Ok, why the unprecedented delays then? Given that they exist, DeJoy even acknowledged them, why go forward with these changes (which are signifigant, no matter how badly you want it to be otherwise) when you know more people than ever are requesting mail-ballots?

You just keep downplaying, but these changes are having demonstrable negative effects in service, why are you ok with that? Why do you feel the instinctual need to make this some "both sides" bullsht? Seems like straight up bad faith to me.

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You go forward with these changes because it is your job to keep the doors open, even if that means you have some delays.

In this case, both sides are lying. Republicans know there is no real danger of massive voter fraud, Democrats know there is plenty of capacity in the postal service for whatever ballots come along.

Changes in the postal service were on the administration's schedule, whether you like those changes or not, years before the pandemic and the grave concern about mail in ballots. You can read about it here:

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/USPS_A_Sustainable_Path_Forward_report_12-04-2018.pdf

You can also review the USPS 10k from 2019.

https://about.usps.com/what/financials/10k-reports/fy2019.pdf

I realize these are not tweets and take a bit more engagement to digest.

Doc Holliday said:

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HuMcK said:

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Speaking of obvious plans being discussed out loud, your boy Trump is doing all he can to steal an election...

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So the absence of mail in voting is stealing the election.

By that logic, all elections have been stolen.

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Well the liberals can't change the way we elect a president (electoral college), so they're now trying to change the way we vote.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Trump may be all that and more, but mail in voting is an intrinsically bad idea. If you have something very important that really needs to move from one place to another and arrive intact, you don't put it in the mail. If you wouldn't mail a box of cash to your bank to pay your mortgage, why on earth would you think it is a good idea to mail your vote?

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Excellent post D.C. The USPS has proven themselves less than dependable and grossly incompetent over the years.

Also, if you can show up in person to protest, riot, loot, vandalize, go to funerals, and go to Walmart, you can damn sure show up in person to vote.

I will predict what has already happened and will continue to happen regarding polling places. In predominately Blue cities, poll workers will not show up by design, out of laziness, and/or "fear" of Covid at these polling locations . These locations will not open due to understaffing and the Democrats will cry foul and claim they are being suppressed and disenfranchised and will blame the Republicans and Trump. Rinse and repeat.

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You know, even if the USPS was managed 1,000% perfectly and no mail was ever late, no mail was ever lost, and no mail was ever delivered to the wrong address, massive mail-out ballots is horrible idea and another way dems want to try and cheat an election.

If millions upon millions are mailed out... it will too easy to forge, too easy to counterfeit and too easy manipulate.

HuMcK said:

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I worry that fools like you will cheerfully institute fascism in America. It's abundantly clear that Republicans want fewer Americans voting, so you can cement your minority rule on "the left" out of spite for your fellow Americans. But that's the beauty of Democracy, even people like you who want to end it get a say.

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Sorry, but Trump supporters don't want fewer American voting, we want fewer Non-Americans voting.

HuMcK said:

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"The high invalidation rate provides more proof that election officials and the Postal Service were woefully underprepared to handle and process the avalanche of mail-in ballots that voters were encouraged to fill out to avoid having to go to the polls during the coronavirus pandemic, critics said."

Best way to make sure that remains true is to do what Trump has to the USPS: withhold money, fight against funding increases, concentrate power with the installed loyalist by allowing him to remove dozens of leadership positions, remove sorting equipment from metro USPS sites, freeze hiring, etc.

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So, are the Russians behind it?

Flaming Moderate said:

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HuMcK said:

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I worry that fools like you will cheerfully institute fascism in America. It's abundantly clear that Republicans want fewer Americans voting, so you can cement your minority rule on "the left" out of spite for your fellow Americans. But that's the beauty of Democracy, even people like you who want to end it get a say.

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Chuckle. You're projecting again. But congrats like a good fascist you've distracted from the big picture by focusing on some mythical evil.

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It's funny and complete irony that these triggered snowflakes who support the antifas and BMLs tell us they are against fascism, even after they literally execute someone for not believing the same as they do.

Here's a piece of advice for you triggered TDSers, stop looking at political ideology as linear, it's wrong at best and intentional manipulation at worst.

The truth about political ideology is circular:

HuMcK said:

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Why is it necessary to hobble USPS instead of reinforce it in a time of unprecedented pandemic? Do agree with Trump's stance of deliberately sabotaging USPS?

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Sorry, but this pandemic is NOT unprecedented. We've had other pandemics in history that have literally killed 10x ,20x, 50x the number of people that Covid has.

What is unprecedented is the liberal left and the democrats trying to politicize it and use it to change the way we vote and steal an election.

J.R. said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Trump may be all that and more, but mail in voting is an intrinsically bad idea. If you have something very important that really needs to move from one place to another and arrive intact, you don't put it in the mail. If you wouldn't mail a box of cash to your bank to pay your mortgage, why on earth would you think it is a good idea to mail your vote?

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Trump and his family vote by mail....It's called absentee voting. It is the same freaking thing. He sees his defeat and instead of fighting , he's already setting things up to be a fraud to protect his brand. **** him.

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Stop pretending that absentee voting is the same thing as the federal government mailing out unrequested ballots by the millions upon millions to God knows who.

They are vastly different

HashTag said:

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HuMcK said:

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I worry that fools like you will cheerfully institute fascism in America. It's abundantly clear that Republicans want fewer Americans voting, so you can cement your minority rule on "the left" out of spite for your fellow Americans. But that's the beauty of Democracy, even people like you who want to end it get a say.

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Sorry, but Trump supporters don't want fewer American voting, we want fewer Non-Americans voting.

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And dead people. And non-American dead people.

Sure, that's why North Carolina Republicans targeted black voters with "surgical precision" to suppress their votes, and why Alabama Republicans succesfully gutted the pre-clearance section of the '65 Voting Rights Act recently, and why Republicans are spending 10s of millions of $$$ sponsoring anti mail-ballot lawsuits across the country right now.

HuMcK said:

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Sure, that's why North Carolina Republicans targeted black voters with "surgical precision" to suppress their votes, and why Alabama Republicans succesfully gutted the pre-clearance section of the '65 Voting Rights Act recently, and why Republicans are spending 10s of millions of $$$ sponsoring anti mail-ballot lawsuits across the country right now.

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If you can protest or riot or loot or go to the grocery store, you can show up to vote. It's pretty damn simple.

Democrats, in an effort ton win at all costs, it's no surprise they want to change voting procedures right before an election. After all, you can't change the way we elect a president by doing away with the electoral college, might as well change the way we vote.

Now, go ahead regurgitate the dem lie about absentee voting is the same as mailing out millions upon millions of non-requested ballots.... it's always a good laugh a triggered snowflakes throw that one out.

I'm guessing you wack jobs are trying to set the stage for lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit after the election, since you won't be able to accept the results, just like in 2016.

Postmaster General DeJoy seems to have potentially committed some felony level campaign finance crimes. Weird that no-one here posted this for discussion already...

Also may have lied to Congress...

Whatever he did, DeJoy doesn't seem able to deny anything...

Boy this thread went quiet pretty suddenly. What happened, where did DeJoy's defenders scurry off to?