Abbott signs "anti-critical race theory" bill into law

9,208 Views | 292 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by quash
D. C. Bear
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HuMcK said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.

Amazing, responds to a comment about conservatives censoring thought by operation of law...to complain that some strawman version of liberalism is what actually stops thought...

Brings to mind the famous Hemmingway quote: "There are many who do not know they are fascists, but will find it out when the times comes". All it takes is a recitation of the magic words "marxism/bolshevism/communism", and from there you'll justify almost anything.


Without commenting the wisdom of these laws, which I would not tend to support, no one is censoring thought. Teachers are free to think and say whatever they want as citizens. As government employees acting in their official capacity, however, teachers do and should not exercise those rights in the same way. I know many teachers who would love to be able to explicitly tell their students that they have value and worth as individuals because they were created by a God who loves them and sent his Son to die for them, but that isn't appropriate for a public school teacher.
bear2be2
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Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
Want to know the quickest and easiest way to halt the advance of Marxism? Fix our broken capitalism.

If American capitalism grew and served the middle class, you wouldn't have so many seeking and selling alternatives. Unfortunately, it currently does the opposite because of judgments and policy that have put billionaires and corporations in charge of drafting/approving our policy.

I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.

If history has taught us anything, it's that you can't **** on the plebs forever and not expect an uprising.
Doc Holliday
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HuMcK said:

First is censorship of ideas, then the ideological purges. Republicans seem to simultaneously want to force social media to broadcast their propaganda, but also censor the dissemination of concepts they deem undesirable (whether those concepts are actually being taught...or not). At the intersection of that contradiction lies authoritarianism.
Why are you surprised? The left has engaged in this behavior tenfold for decades.

You're not going to lead free people to their demise without pushback.
Doc Holliday
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bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
bear2be2
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Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Doc Holliday
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bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view of our government and economy.

We have a massive labor shortage of high paying jobs for crying out loud...
Forest Bueller_bf
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Doc Holliday said:

HuMcK said:

First is censorship of ideas, then the ideological purges. Republicans seem to simultaneously want to force social media to broadcast their propaganda, but also censor the dissemination of concepts they deem undesirable (whether those concepts are actually being taught...or not). At the intersection of that contradiction lies authoritarianism.
Why are you surprised? The left has engaged in this behavior tenfold for decades.

You're not going to lead free people to their demise without pushback.
I also don't see an apples to apples comparison with social media which is an avenue of free speech, blocking Republican talking points, to a government school teaching CRT as reality in K-12.

Not the same at all.

1) You should be allowed free speech on social platforms, I mean look at the stuff the far left puts out there, I don't see an issue with it though, it is the free market of ideas after all. Accept it or reject it, you have the right to see it.

2) The Government should not push a far left social agenda in Government schools any more than they should push a specific religion. CRT should not be taught, unless it is taught in the way you teach a Religion class. As a theory to be studied, not implemented as reality of life.

It is a seriously flawed dangerous concept. There is a difference in free speech and forced allegiance to propaganda.
D. C. Bear
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bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.


You are, in a sense, correct. We have the greatest country in the history of the world, and it certainly wasn't Marxism that got us where we are.
bear2be2
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Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
HuMcK
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It wasn't robber-Barron focused economics either. The greatest economy and military the world has ever seen was built during a time of very high marginal tax rates (personal and corporate) and mechanisms that encouraged the accumulation of middle class wealth. Too much supply-side economics, and taking the demand side for granted, has led to the relatively tenuous situation we find ourselves in now.
bear2be2
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D. C. Bear said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.


You are, in a sense, correct. We have the greatest country in the history of the world, and it certainly wasn't Marxism that got us where we are.
It's funny how much time those who parrot this line as if obligated to spend railing about all that is wrong with this country. It's almost as if they're arguing with themselves.

There's a lot this country has done right throughout history. But look around you. Our institutions are failing left and right, and our policy is outdated or ineffective in virtually every significant area. There's little objectively exceptional about this country right now. And rather than fix and modernize the many areas in which we've fallen behind or lost our way, we lean on trite nationalism to shift our thoughts and concerns away from the obvious problems we see but don't want to address.

This is contributing to the issue we're talking about here. What worked before isn't working now. And rather than modernizing a system that has worked in the past and could work again, we're telling everyone who's tired of playing a rigged game to piss off ... and act surprised when they do.
Redbrickbear
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HuMcK said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.

Amazing, responds to a comment about conservatives censoring thought by operation of law...to complain that some strawman version of liberalism is what actually stops thought...

Brings to mind the famous Hemmingway quote: "There are many who do not know they are fascists, but will find it out when the times comes". All it takes is a recitation of the magic words "marxism/bolshevism/communism", and from there you'll justify almost anything.
You will also find that there are many who do don't know they are Leftist totalitarians, but will find it out when the time comes. All it takes is a recitation of the magic words "racist/homophobic/fascist"

Also, for decades conservatives states like Texas, Indiana, North Carolina, etc......have had ultra leftist universities like UT-Austin, IU-Bloomington, and UNC-chapel hill.

Yet liberal states like California, Connecticut, Washington never seem to have righting colleges as their flagship universities (Cal-Berkeley, UCONN, U of Washington)

I wonder why that is? Maybe because liberals have been very good at discriminating against conservatives in academic hiring, promotion, retention and in class room indoctrination and the state legislatures have sat back and let it happen.

Good that Florida has woken up to the faculty lounge peril...its probably far too late for that...but good of them to start noticing what has been written on the wall for decades.

Rawhide
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HuMcK said:

First is censorship of ideas, then the ideological purges. Republicans seem to simultaneously want to force social media to broadcast their propaganda, but also censor the dissemination of concepts they deem undesirable (whether those concepts are actually being taught...or not). At the intersection of that contradiction lies authoritarianism.


Funny that liberals are all about censoring conservative on social media but not about censoring liberals pushing liberal agendas in the classroom.
Rawhide
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bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
Want to know the quickest and easiest way to halt the advance of Marxism? Fix our broken capitalism.

If American capitalism grew and served the middle class, you wouldn't have so many seeking and selling alternatives. Unfortunately, it currently does the opposite because of judgments and policy that have put billionaires and corporations in charge of drafting/approving our policy.

I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.

If history has taught us anything, it's that you can't **** on the plebs forever and not expect an uprising.
I don't disagree with this.

The problem with billionaires and corporations drafting/approving policy is we need to figure out a way to get all that money out of politics. It's a big problem that our elected "leaders" listen to the corporations more than the middle class, seeing how that's where the money is.... big business (especially tech this day and age)

I just don't have an answer for that, unfortunately. Maybe start with term limits. And only that would be a start.
Redbrickbear
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Rawhide said:

HuMcK said:

First is censorship of ideas, then the ideological purges. Republicans seem to simultaneously want to force social media to broadcast their propaganda, but also censor the dissemination of concepts they deem undesirable (whether those concepts are actually being taught...or not). At the intersection of that contradiction lies authoritarianism.


Funny that liberals are all about censoring conservative on social media but not about censoring liberals pushing liberal agendas in the classroom.
Liberals & Leftists have always followed the "Who, Whom?" Leninist principle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who,_whom%3F

Who is a thing being done to? And by whom? That will determine if it is right or wrong.

If its a conservative being silenced by big tech...that is fine. If a liberal or leftist is silenced by big tech...that is a problem.

Same thing when they analyze the politics and policies on college campuses.
Rawhide
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bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Just don't understand why so many millennials who believe that greed has created the problems that we have, believe that the answer is to award those that have benefited from that greed even more power."

If greedy business and politicians are to blame, then why give them the power to expand it further?

Makes no damn sense.
Canon
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Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Just don't understand why so many millennials who believe that greed has created the problems that we have, believe that the answer is to award those that have benefited from that greed even more power."

If greedy business and politicians are to blame, then why give them the power to expand it further?

Makes no damn sense.


Your problem is, you are thinking. To understand millennials and GenZ, you need to turn off your brain and feeeeeeeel.
D. C. Bear
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Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
Want to know the quickest and easiest way to halt the advance of Marxism? Fix our broken capitalism.

If American capitalism grew and served the middle class, you wouldn't have so many seeking and selling alternatives. Unfortunately, it currently does the opposite because of judgments and policy that have put billionaires and corporations in charge of drafting/approving our policy.

I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.

If history has taught us anything, it's that you can't **** on the plebs forever and not expect an uprising.
I don't disagree with this.

The problem with billionaires and corporations drafting/approving policy is we need to figure out a way to get all that money out of politics. It's a big problem that our elected "leaders" listen to the corporations more than the middle class, seeing how that's where the money is.... big business (especially tech this day and age)

I just don't have an answer for that, unfortunately. Maybe start with term limits. And only that would be a start.


You get the money out of politics by limiting Congress' ability to reward and punish people based on the money they give Congress.
quash
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

So, am I gonna get an answer? Do you support public schools being able to teach and promote ideas of white supremacy, or not?

C'mon man, you were the one who came on here like the high and mighty, principled libertarian and was against banning ideas in public schools. So don't run off like a coward when challenged. Man up, and stick to your guns. If you are against banning ideas in public schools, then you support schools being able to teach white supremacy without state interference. Is that correct?

I don't know why this is so hard for you: I oppose banning ideas. I support the freedom of schools to choose what to teach. Why don't you?
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
Rawhide
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bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
quash
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Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
Want to know the quickest and easiest way to halt the advance of Marxism? Fix our broken capitalism.

If American capitalism grew and served the middle class, you wouldn't have so many seeking and selling alternatives. Unfortunately, it currently does the opposite because of judgments and policy that have put billionaires and corporations in charge of drafting/approving our policy.

I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.

If history has taught us anything, it's that you can't **** on the plebs forever and not expect an uprising.
I don't disagree with this.

The problem with billionaires and corporations drafting/approving policy is we need to figure out a way to get all that money out of politics. It's a big problem that our elected "leaders" listen to the corporations more than the middle class, seeing how that's where the money is.... big business (especially tech this day and age)

I just don't have an answer for that, unfortunately. Maybe start with term limits. And only that would be a start.

Don't focus on the supply side (Citizens United wouldn't let you anyway, and that's good) but rather on the demand side. If we fixed our tax system to make it about revenue only and not a kajillion exceptions of the stick and carrot variety then the demand for lobbyists and crony deals would dry up. Eliminate the goodies and the demand for them goes away.

And we already have term limits, we call them elections. Forcing an end to an elected official's term by capping their terms is to deny the voters of their chosen representative. I'm sure you have a list of folks you'd like to see go the same as I do, but if they are not in our district it is simply not up to us.


“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
bear2be2
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Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.
quash
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bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
Redbrickbear
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https://www.thefire.org/stop-talking-right-now-university-of-oklahoma-training-shows-instructors-how-to-censor-indoctrinate-students/?utm_source=Twitter

https://twitter.com/TheFIREorg/status/1407372370814279683?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1407372370814279683%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Ftexags.com%2F


Also, interesting that our resident liberals & leftists are complaining about Florida wanting to know what's being taught at its universities and schools.....while things like this are happening in dark red Oklahoma.

A recording of an "Anti-Racist Rhetoric & Pedagogies" workshop acquired by FIRE raises alarm bells about the state of free expression and freedom of conscience at Oklahoma's flagship university.
Rawhide
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bear2be2 said:

D. C. Bear said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.


You are, in a sense, correct. We have the greatest country in the history of the world, and it certainly wasn't Marxism that got us where we are.
It's funny how much time those who parrot this line as if obligated to spend railing about all that is wrong this country. It's almost as if they're arguing with themselves.

There's a lot this country has done right throughout history. But look around you. Our institutions are failing left and right, and our policy is outdated or ineffective in virtually every significant area. There's little objectively exceptional about this country right now. And rather than fix and modernize the many areas in which we've fallen behind or lost our way, we lean on trite nationalism to shift our thoughts and concerns away from the obvious problems we see but don't want to address.

This is contributing to the issue we're talking about here. What worked before isn't working now. And rather than modernizing a system that has worked in the past and could work again, we're telling everyone who's tired of playing a rigged game to piss off ... and act surprised when they do.
Except that it's not a rigged game. Sure some people will have more challenges than let's say Bill Gate's children.... but that's hardly rigged.

No one is stopping you from creating the next big app or website or whatever. Hell, my father-in-law is sitting on a pile of money (north of $2 million) and he only has a high school education. He worked at the same job for 34 years (blue collar work) and invested every single penny he could into good companies and never spent more than he could afford. He has no debt and very little obligations. He retired from his plant job at age 55 and lives cheaply. He hardly earned his wealth by nefarious means. He lived like everyone probably should... went to work everyday and worked hard, spent only what was necessary and invested wisely.

Heck, if you invested just $250 every month in Apple when they came out with the iPod back in 2001, you'd have over $4 million today.

Part of the reason we have such a wealth gap in this country is because the younger generation will put more money into a good clearance sale than putting money into a good investment.
Rawhide
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Canon said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Just don't understand why so many millennials who believe that greed has created the problems that we have, believe that the answer is to award those that have benefited from that greed even more power."

If greedy business and politicians are to blame, then why give them the power to expand it further?

Makes no damn sense.


Your problem is, you are thinking. To understand millennials and GenZ, you need to turn off your brain and feeeeeeeel.
Ha.. no kidding!
Doc Holliday
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bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.
What do you say about the millions of 20+ year olds who have never even applied for a Job that decry the 1%?

bear2be2
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Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Just don't understand why so many millennials who believe that greed has created the problems that we have, believe that the answer is to award those that have benefited from that greed even more power."

If greedy business and politicians are to blame, then why give them the power to expand it further?

Makes no damn sense.
Because the only capitalism they've ever seen/experienced is our current crony capitalism. They have never lived during a time when our economic system worked for them. Nor were they alive/around to see socialism at its worst.

I don't for a second believe that socialism is the answer. But I understand why others would be searching for one.
bear2be2
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Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.
What do you say about the millions of 20+ year olds who have never even applied for a Job that decry the 1%?


I don't believe that number is nearly as high as you apparently do, but I say that they'll grow up or be left behind.

But I'm not going to punch down at the poor to protect millionaires and billionaires, who are hoarding record wealth at the expense of the middle class, which is far more necessary than they are to a thriving economy/society.
Rawhide
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quash said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
Want to know the quickest and easiest way to halt the advance of Marxism? Fix our broken capitalism.

If American capitalism grew and served the middle class, you wouldn't have so many seeking and selling alternatives. Unfortunately, it currently does the opposite because of judgments and policy that have put billionaires and corporations in charge of drafting/approving our policy.

I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.

If history has taught us anything, it's that you can't **** on the plebs forever and not expect an uprising.
I don't disagree with this.

The problem with billionaires and corporations drafting/approving policy is we need to figure out a way to get all that money out of politics. It's a big problem that our elected "leaders" listen to the corporations more than the middle class, seeing how that's where the money is.... big business (especially tech this day and age)

I just don't have an answer for that, unfortunately. Maybe start with term limits. And only that would be a start.

Don't focus on the supply side (Citizens United wouldn't let you anyway, and that's good) but rather on the demand side. If we fixed our tax system to make it about revenue only and not a kajillion exceptions of the stick and carrot variety then the demand for lobbyists and crony deals would dry up. Eliminate the goodies and the demand for them goes away.

And we already have term limits, we call them elections. Forcing an end to an elected official's term by capping their terms is to deny the voters of their chosen representative. I'm sure you have a list of folks you'd like to see go the same as I do, but if they are not in our district it is simply not up to us.



You know, you're not wrong. I feel the same way about denying the right to a voter for casting a ballot for who they wish.

Just don't know how to get so much money out of politics.

Yep, we need a complete overhaul of the tax law in this country and deny politicians the ability to tweak it to benefit whoever for whenever. That's a lot of power that they'll never give up though. I'm for a consumption tax, not so much for a flat income tax - mainly out of principle. I don't think people should be taxed and what they produce and should only be taxed on what they consume.

Although, I wouldn't really like it, but in order to achieve a tax overhaul to consumption, I could be convinced to support a progressive (really regressive) consumption tax. Meaning... okay the first $8K for an automobile is not taxed, autos from 8k - 15K is taxed at this rate, then 15k - 30k is taxed a that rate.... Go ahead an make a Ferrari taxed at a higher rate than a used Ford Focus... If the wealthy person doesn't want to pay the higher tax rate, then they can go buy a Toyota... Like I said, I wouldn't really like it, but could be convinced to support to at least get out of the mess we have now.

Hell, do away with my property taxes and make me pay extra tax on gasoline and make every road a toll road for that matter... almost anything would be better the tax BS we have now.

I know, easier said than done though.
Rawhide
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bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.
He's became successful not because of tax laws but because he built a successful business.
bear2be2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
Canon
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Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.
He's became successful not because of tax laws but because he built a successful business.


Bezos plays by the exact same rules we all do. It's called the law. None of us is taxed on unrealized earnings either.
bear2be2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.
He's became successful not because of tax laws but because he built a successful business.
Building a successful business is great. I applaud anyone who does. It's the gap between just reward and exploitative/shady bull**** I have a problem with, and the latter is being rewarded more and more in our current economic system.
bear2be2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

D. C. Bear said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.


You are, in a sense, correct. We have the greatest country in the history of the world, and it certainly wasn't Marxism that got us where we are.
It's funny how much time those who parrot this line as if obligated to spend railing about all that is wrong this country. It's almost as if they're arguing with themselves.

There's a lot this country has done right throughout history. But look around you. Our institutions are failing left and right, and our policy is outdated or ineffective in virtually every significant area. There's little objectively exceptional about this country right now. And rather than fix and modernize the many areas in which we've fallen behind or lost our way, we lean on trite nationalism to shift our thoughts and concerns away from the obvious problems we see but don't want to address.

This is contributing to the issue we're talking about here. What worked before isn't working now. And rather than modernizing a system that has worked in the past and could work again, we're telling everyone who's tired of playing a rigged game to piss off ... and act surprised when they do.
Except that it's not a rigged game. Sure some people will have more challenges than let's say Bill Gate's children.... but that's hardly rigged.

No one is stopping you from creating the next big app or website or whatever. Hell, my father-in-law is sitting on a pile of money (north of $2 million) and he only has a high school education. He worked at the same job for 34 years (blue collar work) and invested every single penny he could into good companies and never spent more than he could afford. He has no debt and very little obligations. He retired from his plant job at age 55 and lives cheaply. He hardly earned his wealth by nefarious means. He lived like everyone probably should... went to work everyday and worked hard, spent only what was necessary and invested wisely.

Heck, if you invested just $250 every month in Apple when they came out with the iPod back in 2001, you'd have over $4 million today.

Part of the reason we have such a wealth gap in this country is because the younger generation will put more money into a good clearance sale than putting money into a good investment.
Your anecdote might hold more weight if I couldn't point to specific examples -- and many of them -- where megacorporations' shady, incompetent or otherwise harmful practices were rewarded with bailouts or government money earmarked for others.
 
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