Abbott signs "anti-critical race theory" bill into law

9,669 Views | 292 Replies | Last: 3 mo ago by quash
Rawhide
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bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?
Rawhide
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bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

D. C. Bear said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.


You are, in a sense, correct. We have the greatest country in the history of the world, and it certainly wasn't Marxism that got us where we are.
It's funny how much time those who parrot this line as if obligated to spend railing about all that is wrong this country. It's almost as if they're arguing with themselves.

There's a lot this country has done right throughout history. But look around you. Our institutions are failing left and right, and our policy is outdated or ineffective in virtually every significant area. There's little objectively exceptional about this country right now. And rather than fix and modernize the many areas in which we've fallen behind or lost our way, we lean on trite nationalism to shift our thoughts and concerns away from the obvious problems we see but don't want to address.

This is contributing to the issue we're talking about here. What worked before isn't working now. And rather than modernizing a system that has worked in the past and could work again, we're telling everyone who's tired of playing a rigged game to piss off ... and act surprised when they do.
Except that it's not a rigged game. Sure some people will have more challenges than let's say Bill Gate's children.... but that's hardly rigged.

No one is stopping you from creating the next big app or website or whatever. Hell, my father-in-law is sitting on a pile of money (north of $2 million) and he only has a high school education. He worked at the same job for 34 years (blue collar work) and invested every single penny he could into good companies and never spent more than he could afford. He has no debt and very little obligations. He retired from his plant job at age 55 and lives cheaply. He hardly earned his wealth by nefarious means. He lived like everyone probably should... went to work everyday and worked hard, spent only what was necessary and invested wisely.

Heck, if you invested just $250 every month in Apple when they came out with the iPod back in 2001, you'd have over $4 million today.

Part of the reason we have such a wealth gap in this country is because the younger generation will put more money into a good clearance sale than putting money into a good investment.
Your anecdote might hold more weight if I couldn't point to specific examples -- and many of them -- where megacorporations' shady and harmful practices were rewarded with bailouts or government money earmarked for others.
I completely agree. Government should be bailing out NO ONE
bear2be2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?



For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.


https://www.vox.com/polyarchy/2016/6/3/11843780/democrats-wealthy-party

"In 2014, 17 of the 25 wealthiest congressional districts (measured by average income) were represented by Democrats. And overall, the median household income in Democratic-represented congressional districts was about $2,000 more than the median household income in Republican-represented districts ($53,358 to $51,834).

We can also observe some of these larger changes by looking at the partisan giving by the Forbes 400 wealthiest individuals, which political scientists Adam Bonica and Howard Rosenthal have tracked over three decades. Between 1982 and 2012, the share of GOP money from the Forbes 400 fell..."

https://lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com/2015/09/10/rich-people-vote-democratic-its-true/


As old school left of center people like Yale professor Cornell West will tell you...both parties are now the party of Wall St and the Rich.

Democrats are the party of the rich plus social/cultural liberalism and extreme hostility to social conservatism.

Republicans are the party of Wall St plus agnostic on cultural conservativism/not hostile to conservative Americans.
Doc Holliday
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.

bear2be2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?



For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.


https://www.vox.com/polyarchy/2016/6/3/11843780/democrats-wealthy-party

"In 2014, 17 of the 25 wealthiest congressional districts (measured by average income) were represented by Democrats. And overall, the median household income in Democratic-represented congressional districts was about $2,000 more than the median household income in Republican-represented districts ($53,358 to $51,834).

We can also observe some of these larger changes by looking at the partisan giving by the Forbes 400 wealthiest individuals, which political scientists Adam Bonica and Howard Rosenthal have tracked over three decades. Between 1982 and 2012, the share of GOP money from the Forbes 400 fell..."

https://lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com/2015/09/10/rich-people-vote-democratic-its-true/


As old school left of center people like Yale professor Cornell West will tell you...both parties are now the party of Wall St and the Rich.

Democrats are the party of the rich plus social/cultural liberalism and extreme hostility to social conservatism.

Republicans are the party of Wall St plus agnostic on cultural conservativism/not hostile to conservative Americans.
I'm talking about policy, or more accurately the lack thereof.

Both parties are bought and owned by billionaire lobbiests and corporations. But one does more than the other to block legislation that might negatively impact their bottom line.
bear2be2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.


Then you have to create options by rejecting the existing ones. Hold your politicians accountable and stop defending ****heels out of a sense of tribal obligation.

You and I actually agree more than one might think on some of these problems. But they can't and won't be solved with the status quo.
quash
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.

I can put aside my feelings about taxation as theft and consider fixes to the tax code. I assume you can do the same and not claim that Bezos stole $382 billion but merely persuaded people to part with money for things they desired more than the cash itself.

But what is bothering you here is not income, but wealth. Those are two very different things. When you get into wealth taxes you are deep, deep into theft. Where will the theft line be drawn? I can keep my couch but I have to forfeit some portion of my stock portfolio? You want my second fridge? Third gun? Van?
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
Rawhide
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law? I would say Zero chance. I would also say that there would be a zero chance of it with a Democrat congress as well

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be. I don't believe that true. It's not the Republicans, it's all of them, Democrats included. Believe me, that are plenty of democrats in bed with plenty of billionaires. Not trying to make this a R vs D argument. It's all the slimy politicians in Washington.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties? Honestly, I believe both parties are more interested in keeping this country divided. It's easier for them to get elected that way. Our main two political parties are just each side of the same coin.

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO. I'm not a McConnell fan as he's part of the establishment problem that we have, along with the schumers, bidens, pelosis, etc.... While trying to get funding for the wall, the Democrats wanted "the dreamers" to not be deported. Trump even said, I'll do you one better, I'm even open to giving them a path to actual citizenship. the Democrats weren't interested. Look, we have problems in our gov't and one party isn't to blame more than other. It's all of them. It's all of them working in concert together... this conservative will say this so this liberal can say that. It's all a chess game and we're all the pawns. And the funny thing, most of the time their opponent isn't the other side of the aisle... it's US.... AND we're the pawns, they are literally in charge of moving the pieces around against their own opponent.
Please see above....

Our elected "leaders" for decades and decades have done a bang up job at turning half of this country against each other. They need that division to conquer, to get elected, to get money from every side.

I know this is a scene from a movie, but I wouldn't be surprised if this a pretty accurate portrayal of how it is Washington:

Rawhide
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.


Very well put. Much better than I could've said it.
D. C. Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quash said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

So, am I gonna get an answer? Do you support public schools being able to teach and promote ideas of white supremacy, or not?

C'mon man, you were the one who came on here like the high and mighty, principled libertarian and was against banning ideas in public schools. So don't run off like a coward when challenged. Man up, and stick to your guns. If you are against banning ideas in public schools, then you support schools being able to teach white supremacy without state interference. Is that correct?

I don't know why this is so hard for you: I oppose banning ideas. I support the freedom of schools to choose what to teach. Why don't you?


In the final analysis, government decides what is taught in government schools. It is just a question of which governmental authority makes that decision.
Rawhide
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bear2be2 said:

Redbrickbear said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?



For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.


https://www.vox.com/polyarchy/2016/6/3/11843780/democrats-wealthy-party

"In 2014, 17 of the 25 wealthiest congressional districts (measured by average income) were represented by Democrats. And overall, the median household income in Democratic-represented congressional districts was about $2,000 more than the median household income in Republican-represented districts ($53,358 to $51,834).

We can also observe some of these larger changes by looking at the partisan giving by the Forbes 400 wealthiest individuals, which political scientists Adam Bonica and Howard Rosenthal have tracked over three decades. Between 1982 and 2012, the share of GOP money from the Forbes 400 fell..."

https://lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com/2015/09/10/rich-people-vote-democratic-its-true/


As old school left of center people like Yale professor Cornell West will tell you...both parties are now the party of Wall St and the Rich.

Democrats are the party of the rich plus social/cultural liberalism and extreme hostility to social conservatism.

Republicans are the party of Wall St plus agnostic on cultural conservativism/not hostile to conservative Americans.
I'm talking about policy, or more accurately the lack thereof.

Both parties are bought and owned by billionaire lobbiests and corporations. But one does more than the other to block legislation that might negatively impact their bottom line.
It's not one party is to blame more than the other. It's all of them, all the time.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quash said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.

I can put aside my feelings about taxation as theft and consider fixes to the tax code. I assume you can do the same and not claim that Bezos stole $382 billion but merely persuaded people to part with money for things they desired more than the cash itself.

But what is bothering you here is not income, but wealth. Those are two very different things. When you get into wealth taxes you are deep, deep into theft. Where will the theft line be drawn? I can keep my couch but I have to forfeit some portion of my stock portfolio? You want my second fridge? Third gun? Van?

So, putting aside your feelings about curriculum design as book-burning...what do you actually think about teaching Marxism in public schools?
Doc Holliday
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Rawhide said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.


Very well put. Much better than I could've said it.
Thanks!

I really don't think we solve these problems without a disaster or revolution unfortunately.
bear2be2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quash said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.

I can put aside my feelings about taxation as theft and consider fixes to the tax code. I assume you can do the same and not claim that Bezos stole $382 billion but merely persuaded people to part with money for things they desired more than the cash itself.

But what is bothering you here is not income, but wealth. Those are two very different things. When you get into wealth taxes you are deep, deep into theft. Where will the theft line be drawn? I can keep my couch but I have to forfeit some portion of my stock portfolio? You want my second fridge? Third gun? Van?

Odds are slim to none that I've given even the slightest thought or had the slightest concern over your level of wealth.

Unless you're hoarding billions of untaxed dollars, and in so doing putting an unnecessary and unsustainable strain on our economy and society, I don't particularly care what you make or have.
Doc Holliday
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.


Then you have to create options by rejecting the existing ones. Hold your politicians accountable and stop defending ****heels out of a sense of tribal obligation.

You and I actually agree more than one might think on some of these problems. But they can't and won't be solved with the status quo.
I think you need to understand that it's one giant party.

D vs. R is a facade.

It's not simple either. If you were elected President and actually pursued undoing corruption, they would end you.

It's equivalent to stopping trillions of dollars from going to oligarchs over time. They won't bend over and take it. It would take a revolution.
Robert Wilson
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.
This is spot on. Regulation kills small business and protects the big ones.

Biden's proposed changes to the tax code will be a nuisance to the uber rich but will hammer the upper middle class. These things basically create a caste system whereby the upper crust establishment is cemented in, and no one else can crack it.
Doc Holliday
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Robert Wilson said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.
This is spot on. Regulation kills small business and protects the big ones.

Biden's proposed changes to the tax code will be a nuisance to the uber rich but will hammer the upper middle class. These things basically create a caste system whereby the upper crust establishment is cemented in, and no one else can crack it.
Exactly.

The wealth gap would shrink if people in the middle class had enough capital, or less debt, to be able to create more startups and small businesses that eventually would grow. They're not going to do that when they become wage slaves, housebroke, and a job loss away from losing everything.
muddybrazos
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
This is where you are wrong. Democrats are the party of the billionaires nowadays. The old neocon repubs were the rich peoples party but in the past decade that has shifted over to the neolibs like Biden & the Clintons. We definitely need to address the taxation issue bc a family making 400k should not be treated as rich compared to someone making $5-10 million a year. I understand its frustrating to see Jeff Bezos paying a lower marginal rate than a middle class person but his wealth is all in his company. I am hesitant to advocate for a wealth tax bc that would force Bezos to sell off chunks of his stock every year to pay this tax. Maybe if the wealth tax was for somone with like $100million+ net worth I could support it but I know that I would not want to be forced to liquidate my crypto or stock investments annually just bc they have increased in value. Also, I do believe that capital gains taxes are theft and should be 0% or very close to 0% so that you incentivize people to invest their capital.


muddybrazos
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Doc Holliday said:

Robert Wilson said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.
This is spot on. Regulation kills small business and protects the big ones.

Biden's proposed changes to the tax code will be a nuisance to the uber rich but will hammer the upper middle class. These things basically create a caste system whereby the upper crust establishment is cemented in, and no one else can crack it.
Exactly.

The wealth gap would shrink if people in the middle class had enough capital, or less debt, to be able to create more startups and small businesses that eventually would grow. They're not going to do that when they become wage slaves, housebroke, and a job loss away from losing everything.
With Blackrock buying up single family homes this will cause the wealth gap to increase forcing the middle class to be renters. I absolutely think this should not be allowed.
Rawhide
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Doc Holliday said:

Rawhide said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.


Very well put. Much better than I could've said it.
Thanks!

I really don't think we solve these problems without a disaster or revolution unfortunately.
Yep, Unfortunately I agree. I also think, with the tearing down of statues, the destruction of blocks of various cities, the assaults (and murder) of Trump supporters the last fews years, the media's lies, the politicians supporting the rioters/looters/assaulters and the censorship of big tech against conservatives...the revolution has already started, conservatives just don't see it yet or just not interested in fighting it.
Doc Holliday
How long do you want to ignore this user?
muddybrazos said:

Doc Holliday said:

Robert Wilson said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.
This is spot on. Regulation kills small business and protects the big ones.

Biden's proposed changes to the tax code will be a nuisance to the uber rich but will hammer the upper middle class. These things basically create a caste system whereby the upper crust establishment is cemented in, and no one else can crack it.
Exactly.

The wealth gap would shrink if people in the middle class had enough capital, or less debt, to be able to create more startups and small businesses that eventually would grow. They're not going to do that when they become wage slaves, housebroke, and a job loss away from losing everything.
With Blackrock buying up single family homes this will cause the wealth gap to increase forcing the middle class to be renters. I absolutely think this should not be allowed.
Blackrock will bankroll campaigns or lobby to prevent that.

The founders didn't put enough rules in place to prevent cronyism.
Rawhide
How long do you want to ignore this user?
muddybrazos said:

Doc Holliday said:

Robert Wilson said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.
The problem isn't Bezos and he didn't earn his money nefariously.... He's followed tax law. Sounds like we need a tax overhaul... but don't try to say Bezos became successful by being crook when all he's done is followed the rules.

We should demand tax overhaul - completely and not this if you make over $400K BS... I mean a complete overhaul of how we are taxed.

I was gifted 500 shares of stock when I got married 25 years ago. I haven't sold it and won't sell it until I retire. The stock has done okay and even split a few times... Am I a crook because I don't have to pay taxes on it since I haven't sold it?

If I bought a house for $300K and sold it 10 years later for $500K, am I a crook for not paying taxes on the $200K profit since the tax laws say I don't have to?

Here's the issue, though. You and I have had some pretty serious differences here (I apologize for the occasions I've been uncivil), and we have found middle ground on this issue. What do you think the odds are of a Republican congress allowing the type of tax reform that you and I could come up with via compromise pass into law?

For whatever reason, the Republicans have become the party of and for the billionaire, which is unfortunate because many of their members would prefer they not be.

You and I actually agree on a lot of the problems. And if we sat down and discussed them, we could probably come up with solutions that both of us could live with. Why is that too much to ask of our parties?

And understand I'm not ripping Republicans here to prop up the Democrats. I could give two ****s about that party. But if your issue is with the encroachment of Marxism, and the growing consensus being built around progressive policies, you have to start playing ball and offering viable alternative solutions. The Republicans have abandoned that goal in favor of sheer obstructionism under McConnell IMO.
But these progressive policies and ideas based around wealth sharing are being promoted by the largest corporations and 1% because it funnels money and market share towards them.

Tax the rich becomes tax the 6 figure middle class and who obviously works and contributes the most.

High corporate taxes hurts everyone who can't afford them. The only ones who can handle it are the big dogs and that's how they want it.

Government involvement in healthcare like the ACA killed off the smallest insurance providers. It was obviously hatched by the big guys. They grew enormously.

I understand you're referencing the left's perception of the situation, but the devil is in the details and they're actively handing over power to the 1% believing they're doing the opposite.

The entire thing is systemic and almost all GOP voters feels politically homeless. You're attacking the voters as if they want what the GOP is offering. We have no options.
This is spot on. Regulation kills small business and protects the big ones.

Biden's proposed changes to the tax code will be a nuisance to the uber rich but will hammer the upper middle class. These things basically create a caste system whereby the upper crust establishment is cemented in, and no one else can crack it.
Exactly.

The wealth gap would shrink if people in the middle class had enough capital, or less debt, to be able to create more startups and small businesses that eventually would grow. They're not going to do that when they become wage slaves, housebroke, and a job loss away from losing everything.
With Blackrock buying up single family homes this will cause the wealth gap to increase forcing the middle class to be renters. I absolutely think this should not be allowed.
Rawhide
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

Blackrock will bankroll campaigns or lobby to prevent that.

The founders didn't put enough rules in place to prevent cronyism.
I'll add that Blackrock's political donations were almost 80% to Democrats:

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/blackrock-inc/recipients?id=D000021872
Florda_mike
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Bump

Late to party
Doc Holliday
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Rawhide said:

Quote:

Blackrock will bankroll campaigns or lobby to prevent that.

The founders didn't put enough rules in place to prevent cronyism.
I'll add that Blackrock's political donations were almost 80% to Democrats:

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/blackrock-inc/recipients?id=D000021872
It's so easy to hide corruption when the message is compassion.
HuMcK
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"Democrats are the party of the billionaires nowadays."

Maybe you missed it, but the last Republican President was a billionaire, who stocked his cabinet with more billionaires than any before it, and whose sole legislative achievement was a massive tax cut for corporations and billionaires. The Democrats' entire platform right now is to tax billionaires more, and Republicans' sole red line is to oppose taxing the rich more at all costs.
muddybrazos
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HuMcK said:

"Democrats are the party of the billionaires nowadays."

Maybe you missed it, but the last Republican President was a billionaire, who stocked his cabinet with more billionaires than any before it, and whose sole legislative achievement was a massive tax cut for corporations and billionaires. The Democrats' entire platform right now is to tax billionaires more, and Republicans' sole red line is to oppose taxing the rich more at all costs.
That's strange bc I got a tax cut under the last president and I'm getting a tax raise under the current president and I don't make more than 400k.
Rawhide
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HuMcK said:

"Democrats are the party of the billionaires nowadays."

Maybe you missed it, but the last Republican President was a billionaire, who stocked his cabinet with more billionaires than any before it, and whose sole legislative achievement was a massive tax cut for corporations and billionaires. The Democrats' entire platform right now is to tax billionaires more, and Republicans' sole red line is to oppose taxing the rich more at all costs.
Do you really want to go there?

Please, billionaires are funding the democrat party and their agenda and have been for awhile. Hell, Wall St. was all-in HIllary.

So tell me genius, which political party is cozying up to Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Tim Cook, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Georgie Soros and the like

And the reason Republicans oppose "taxing the rich" are for two reasons:

1) Nobody should be extra penalized for being successful

and most importantly

2) Republicans know when hey say "tax the rich", they're really talking about the upper middle class. All the wealthy people will get the exemptions and end up paying not a dime more.

When are you going to figure out the democrats have been "taxing the rich" for decades and it still hasn't worked.
Redbrickbear
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HuMcK said:

"Democrats are the party of the billionaires nowadays."

Maybe you missed it, but the last Republican President was a billionaire, who stocked his cabinet with more billionaires than any before it, and whose sole legislative achievement was a massive tax cut for corporations and billionaires. The Democrats' entire platform right now is to tax billionaires more, and Republicans' sole red line is to oppose taxing the rich more at all costs.
The Democrats slogan is tax the rich.....that's all it is...a slogan to get elected.

They won't actually do it.

Did they tax the rich when they got control of New York and California? Wealth inequality is at its most extreme in those areas.

When they are in power rich liberals write the laws and make sure that the middle class (and not them) pays.

Democrats make sure there are more than enough loop holes and deferred taxation options that the rich never get soaked....the middle class does.

https://billmoyers.com/story/how-did-democrats-become-the-party-of-elites/

https://www.financialsamurai.com/do-rich-and-powerful-people-want-to-keep-the-middle-class-down/
Robert Wilson
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Case in point: Biden's tax bill has no chance of passing the Democrats in the House unless he also gives the high income blue state Democrats their salt deduction.
quash
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Sam Lowry said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.

I can put aside my feelings about taxation as theft and consider fixes to the tax code. I assume you can do the same and not claim that Bezos stole $382 billion but merely persuaded people to part with money for things they desired more than the cash itself.

But what is bothering you here is not income, but wealth. Those are two very different things. When you get into wealth taxes you are deep, deep into theft. Where will the theft line be drawn? I can keep my couch but I have to forfeit some portion of my stock portfolio? You want my second fridge? Third gun? Van?

So, putting aside your feelings about curriculum design as book-burning...what do you actually think about teaching Marxism in public schools?

Support your bull**** question.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
quash
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bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.

I can put aside my feelings about taxation as theft and consider fixes to the tax code. I assume you can do the same and not claim that Bezos stole $382 billion but merely persuaded people to part with money for things they desired more than the cash itself.

But what is bothering you here is not income, but wealth. Those are two very different things. When you get into wealth taxes you are deep, deep into theft. Where will the theft line be drawn? I can keep my couch but I have to forfeit some portion of my stock portfolio? You want my second fridge? Third gun? Van?

Odds are slim to none that I've given even the slightest thought or had the slightest concern over your level of wealth.

Unless you're hoarding billions of untaxed dollars, and in so doing putting an unnecessary and unsustainable strain on our economy and society, I don't particularly care what you make or have.

So your theft line is somewhere in the billions?

And exactly how does the earning and keeping of billions constitute hoarding? Why is that a strain on the economy? Or society?
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
Sam Lowry
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quash said:

Sam Lowry said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.

I can put aside my feelings about taxation as theft and consider fixes to the tax code. I assume you can do the same and not claim that Bezos stole $382 billion but merely persuaded people to part with money for things they desired more than the cash itself.

But what is bothering you here is not income, but wealth. Those are two very different things. When you get into wealth taxes you are deep, deep into theft. Where will the theft line be drawn? I can keep my couch but I have to forfeit some portion of my stock portfolio? You want my second fridge? Third gun? Van?

So, putting aside your feelings about curriculum design as book-burning...what do you actually think about teaching Marxism in public schools?

Support your bull**** question.

Whoa, no need to take offense. You said you had no opinion on what schools teach, except they should be allowed to teach whatever they want. Anything less is book-banning in your view. I'm saying, if you can set aside the libertarian purist argument on taxes and speak pragmatically about policy, why not do the same here? Granted that there are government schools, and the state is ultimately responsible for what they teach, do you think they should teach CRT or not?

If you want support for CRT as Marxist, I think I covered that. I can elaborate if necessary.
quash
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

quash said:

Sam Lowry said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

quash said:

bear2be2 said:

Rawhide said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Doc Holliday said:

bear2be2 said:

Canon said:

Sounds good. We need to weed Marxists out of our country, particularly in positions where they can propagandize children and young people.

Marxism is the thought that stops thought.
I'm very much a free market guy. I don't believe socialism works in practice. But I'm not the least bit surprised by its growth in popularity among people who have correctly determined that our current economic system, which has allowed lobbiests to circumvent the market and corporations to win without playing by the rules, isn't working for them.
What you fail to realize is socialism, big government or leftist policies allow the ultra rich to thrive.

You don't understand how they use government against the middle class, small and midsize business.
It's not Marxism that has put us in our current situation. It's unchecked greed and a culture that is largely accepting/approving of it.

Marxism is the reaction, not the action. And as misguided as it is IMO, it's completely understandable given the current state of our economy.
Individual Wealth and buying power has nearly increased 5000% since the mid 1800's. It's not living conditions or access to materialism, housing or goods that's the issue. So no, that's not what's understandable.

What's going on today is cultural envy. The wealth gap has grown and the masses want a piece of that pie with absolutely no regard to personal responsibility.

People today have more opportunity than ever before and they're simply refusing to capitalize on it. The ultra rich are taking advantage of their perverted view on our government and economy.

You're just enabling the corporate oligarchy you decry here with this pseudo defense of the status quo.

It's not cultural envy. There has always been a wealth gap in this country, and we've navigated it to this point without many significant hiccups. What makes this period different is that the gap is wider than it's ever been and was "achieved" nefariously.

The American dream narrative works when most of your population feels they're being given a fair opportunity to achieve it. We've proven for generations that we can accept income inequality (an inevitability of capitalist -- and really any -- society) if we feel everyone is playing by the same rules.

The problem now is that that is not the case. Winners and losers are being picked before the game even starts, and rather than call out the cheating players, we waste time on forums like this defending the game.

The game is fine when played by the rules. But when you rig it in a way that is clear as day to the others at the table, they're going to leave and find something else to play.
How has Jeff Bezos achieved his wealth nefariously? Bill Gates, Steve Jobs/Apple, Walton Family? As far as I can tell, they created a business or product that people wanted and profited from it.

What's your definition of "the wealthy"... what does the wealthy look like to you?
Go look at Jeff Bezos' taxes and tell me he's played by the same rules you and I have.

He has. His $82k annual salary gets taxed like everybody else who makes $82k a year.

Any tax code that allows the richest man on earth and owner of a corporation that hauled in $382 billion in revenue last year to claim $82k in income is broken beyond repair. And if you disagree, you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue.

But if, like many libertarians, you view taxes of any kind as theft, that's likely a given.

I can put aside my feelings about taxation as theft and consider fixes to the tax code. I assume you can do the same and not claim that Bezos stole $382 billion but merely persuaded people to part with money for things they desired more than the cash itself.

But what is bothering you here is not income, but wealth. Those are two very different things. When you get into wealth taxes you are deep, deep into theft. Where will the theft line be drawn? I can keep my couch but I have to forfeit some portion of my stock portfolio? You want my second fridge? Third gun? Van?

So, putting aside your feelings about curriculum design as book-burning...what do you actually think about teaching Marxism in public schools?

Support your bull**** question.

Whoa, no need to take offense. You said you had no opinion on what schools teach, except they should be allowed to teach whatever they want. Anything less is book-banning in your view. I'm saying, if you can set aside the libertarian purist argument on taxes and speak pragmatically about policy, why not do the same here? Granted that there are government schools, and the state is ultimately responsible for what they teach, do you think they should teach CRT or not?

If you want support for CRT as Marxist, I think I covered that. I can elaborate if necessary.

Then don't start by calling me a book burner in a thread where I am taking the exact opposite position.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
 
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