CammoTX said:

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Does God create this world toward love, justice and hope?

God allows and wills evil to exist in this world for his glory. If this world can give us justice, why would we need God?

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So if Adam and Eve had never sinned, they wouldn't need God?

Waco1947 said:

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curtpenn said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

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I didn't set up anything. What are you on about? SMH... same old, same old with you.

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Yes you did. Either believe of perish. Is that right?

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Show me my argument, please. Merely pointed how you've presented a false dilemma. That is all. Perhaps Logic wasn't a requirement for you at Baylor.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

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So God does punish?

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Did Jesus receive punishment for our sins?
Did God ever punish Israel for their disobedience and unfaithfulness?
Will God not punish Satan and his angels?

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and me?

curtpenn said:

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Waco1947 said:

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curtpenn said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

I didn't set up anything. What are you on about? SMH... same old, same old with you.

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Yes you did. Either believe of perish. Is that right?

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Show me my argument, please. Merely pointed how you've presented a false dilemma. That is all. Perhaps Logic wasn't a requirement for you at Baylor.

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I did learn to respect people in honest discourse

Porteroso said:

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CammoTX said:

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Does God create this world toward love, justice and hope?

God allows and wills evil to exist in this world for his glory. If this world can give us justice, why would we need God?

---

So if Adam and Eve had never sinned, they wouldn't need God?

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Not sure how you drew that conclusion from what I posted.

Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

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So God does punish?

---

Did Jesus receive punishment for our sins?
Did God ever punish Israel for their disobedience and unfaithfulness?
Will God not punish Satan and his angels?

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and me?

---

Do you agree that the answer to your question is yes, God does punish?

CammoTX said:

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God allows and wills evil to exist in this world for his glory.

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God does not WILL evil. That would not make him an all-loving God. He (by his permissive will) allows evil to happen. We Christians understand that a greater good will come from that evil.

Coke Bear said:

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CammoTX said:

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God allows and wills evil to exist in this world for his glory.

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God does not WILL evil. That would not make him an all-loving God. He (by his permissive will) allows evil to happen. We Christians understand that a greater good will come from that evil.

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If God is truly sovereign than would not everything be his will?

CammoTX said:

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Coke Bear said:

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CammoTX said:

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God allows and wills evil to exist in this world for his glory.

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God does not WILL evil. That would not make him an all-loving God. He (by his permissive will) allows evil to happen. We Christians understand that a greater good will come from that evil.

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If God is truly sovereign than would not everything be his will?

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I didn't will that my son should get hit in the mouth with a tennis ball when he was learning to catch. I did permit him to attempt one handed catches. He eventually learned his lesson.

Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

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Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

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" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

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God may seek love, justice, and hope but the prince of the power of the air has other ideas. Both the Bible and the daily headlines tell us which side is winning at the moment.

The Bible is also quite clear that sins are forgiven when forgiveness is sought, and not otherwise.

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Can you prove there is a "power of the air?"

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Ephesians 2:1-2:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

CammoTX said:

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Porteroso said:

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CammoTX said:

---

Does God create this world toward love, justice and hope?

God allows and wills evil to exist in this world for his glory. If this world can give us justice, why would we need God?

---

So if Adam and Eve had never sinned, they wouldn't need God?

---

Not sure how you drew that conclusion from what I posted.

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What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole? If we could be whole without God, we wouldn't need him? So before sin, we didn't need him?

JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

Hell is not a Stalinist torture chamber where God wreaks vengeance on His enemies. It is the state of being separated from God. Since God is the source of good, this separation is excruciating; however, it is the result of the person's choice.

God does not want people to be separated from Him (2 Pet. 3:9) but He will honor their decision if they so choose (John 3:16-17).

---

To the Egyptians: You want to worship a frog? Here's frogs

To the Israelites: You want quail rather than manna? Here's quail

To the non-repentant: You want life without God? Here's eternity without God

Porteroso said:

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What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole? If we could be whole without God, we wouldn't need him? So before sin, we didn't need him?

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I believe that you misunderstand justice.

From the Catholic Dictionary - As a virtue, it is the constant and permanent determination to give everyone his or her rightful due. It is a habitual inclination of the will and therefore always recognizes each one's rights, under any and all circumstances.

It is God, who determines what each person's rightful due.

Coke Bear said:

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Porteroso said:

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What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole? If we could be whole without God, we wouldn't need him? So before sin, we didn't need him?

---

I believe that you misunderstand justice.

From the Catholic Dictionary - As a virtue, it is the constant and permanent determination to give everyone his or her rightful due. It is a habitual inclination of the will and therefore always recognizes each one's rights, under any and all circumstances.

It is God, who determines what each person's rightful due.

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Justice is not only a virtue, but in this usage can be thought of as a state of the world, i.e. living in a just world. I think that's the way the word was being used before I chimed in, so that's what I'll go with. Thank for looking it up though! I was just trying to clarify.

Coke Bear said:

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Porteroso said:

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What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole? If we could be whole without God, we wouldn't need him? So before sin, we didn't need him?

---

I believe that you misunderstand justice.

From the Catholic Dictionary - As a virtue, it is the constant and permanent determination to give everyone his or her rightful due. It is a habitual inclination of the will and therefore always recognizes each one's rights, under any and all circumstances.

It is God, who determines what each person's rightful due.

---

The dang Catholics nailed this one!

I am thankful Jesus Christ took the just punishment for my sins.

ps...the "dang Catholics" comment is said tongue-in-cheek. This Protestant married into a Catholic family.

Porteroso: "What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole?"

Justice is active good, not passive condition

Oldbear83 said:

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Porteroso: "What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole?"

Justice is active good, not passive condition

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Reading can prevent many misunderstandings on a text only forum. Try it.

Porteroso said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Porteroso: "What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole?"

Justice is active good, not passive condition

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Reading can prevent many misunderstandings on a text only forum. Try it.

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I see you still can't take criticism.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

---

So God does punish?

---

Did Jesus receive punishment for our sins?
Did God ever punish Israel for their disobedience and unfaithfulness?
Will God not punish Satan and his angels?

---

and me?

---

Do you agree that the answer to your question is yes, God does punish?

---

I believe it's all grace - no punishment.
But what say you ?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Coke Bear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole? If we could be whole without God, we wouldn't need him? So before sin, we didn't need him?

---

I believe that you misunderstand justice.

From the Catholic Dictionary - As a virtue, it is the constant and permanent determination to give everyone his or her rightful due. It is a habitual inclination of the will and therefore always recognizes each one's rights, under any and all circumstances.

It is God, who determines what each person's rightful due.

---

The dang Catholics nailed this one!

I am thankful Jesus Christ took the just punishment for my sins.

---

but you have to accept him if not you will be punished, right?

JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

Hell is not a Stalinist torture chamber where God wreaks vengeance on His enemies. It is the state of being separated from God. Since God is the source of good, this separation is excruciating; however, it is the result of the person's choice.

God does not want people to be separated from Him (2 Pet. 3:9) but He will honor their decision if they so choose (John 3:16-17).

---

But my understanding of God is that God keeps trying.

Waco1947 said:

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Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

None have responded to my logic and conclusion

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

Hell is not a Stalinist torture chamber where God wreaks vengeance on His enemies. It is the state of being separated from God. Since God is the source of good, this separation is excruciating; however, it is the result of the person's choice.

God does not want people to be separated from Him (2 Pet. 3:9) but He will honor their decision if they so choose (John 3:16-17).

---

But my understanding of God is that God keeps trying.

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God will try to draw you to Him for your whole life. Afterwards, not so much - then you have made your choice. Hebrews 9:27.

Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

---

So God does punish?

---

Did Jesus receive punishment for our sins?
Did God ever punish Israel for their disobedience and unfaithfulness?
Will God not punish Satan and his angels?

---

and me?

---

Do you agree that the answer to your question is yes, God does punish?

---

I believe it's all grace - no punishment.
But what say you ?

---

Like I already said, Hell is not "punishment." It is the eternal separation from God that the person chose.

Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole? If we could be whole without God, we wouldn't need him? So before sin, we didn't need him?

---

I believe that you misunderstand justice.

From the Catholic Dictionary - As a virtue, it is the constant and permanent determination to give everyone his or her rightful due. It is a habitual inclination of the will and therefore always recognizes each one's rights, under any and all circumstances.

It is God, who determines what each person's rightful due.

---

The dang Catholics nailed this one!

I am thankful Jesus Christ took the just punishment for my sins.

---

but you have to accept him if not you will be punished, right?

---

I am convinced our Lord is just. Tamar, a Gentile prostitute knew nothing of Jesus Christ but, she put her faith in God.

When Christ returns, will everyone have heard about the gospel? I don't know. I believe those who seek, will find-I just don't know if they find before or during the Rapture.

For those who do not seek or reject Christ, they are condemned already and will be separated from God, just as the goats are separated from the sheep.

That separation from God is self-imposed. If you want to call it punishment, so be it. I prefer to call it wages.

Correction: I said Tamar but should have said Rahab. My bad.

Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Porteroso said:

---

What is justice, but the absence of sin, or sin made right, man made whole? If we could be whole without God, we wouldn't need him? So before sin, we didn't need him?

---

I believe that you misunderstand justice.

From the Catholic Dictionary - As a virtue, it is the constant and permanent determination to give everyone his or her rightful due. It is a habitual inclination of the will and therefore always recognizes each one's rights, under any and all circumstances.

It is God, who determines what each person's rightful due.

---

The dang Catholics nailed this one!

I am thankful Jesus Christ took the just punishment for my sins.

---

but you have to accept him if not you will be punished, right?

---

Is it punishment if you get what you choose?

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

---

So God does punish?

---

Did Jesus receive punishment for our sins?
Did God ever punish Israel for their disobedience and unfaithfulness?
Will God not punish Satan and his angels?

---

and me?

---

Do you agree that the answer to your question is yes, God does punish?

---

I believe it's all grace - no punishment.
But what say you ?

---

If you're saying it's all grace and no punishment, then why did you say this in your original post:

"God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)"


Aren't you proclaiming that God invokes negative consequences for these people's chosen actions and beliefs? You are contradicting yourself.

Mother Teresa = Hitler = Billy Graham

47 believes it is either all grace or all to the fertilizer pit

Where is Justice, 47.

curtpenn said:

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As an Episcopalian, much of what you say sounds to me like typical Episcobabble.

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Whiskeypalian?

Waco1947 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

None have responded to my logic and conclusion

---

Logic?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Mother Teresa = Hitler = Billy Graham

47 believes it is either all grace or all to the fertilizer pit

---

Proud 1992 Alum said:

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Focusing on "God is love" is simplistic. God is many things at once.

God is:
Creator.
Just.
Merciful.
Wise.
Omniscient.
All powerful.
The ultimate judge.
Heavenly father.

And on and on.

A focus on any one attribute can lead a person to misunderstand the whole of God. Not to mention the fact that ultimately humans are incapable of completely understanding or comprehending God. Many questions will simply have to be left unanswered this side of the grave. As for me, I am casting my lot with Jesus Christ. His sacrifice will have to suffice.

---

While I really like your post, I don't believe that "God is love" is simplistic. I think a person could spend many lifetimes meditating/contemplating/experiencing the vast meanings of love and still fail to articulate it, understand it, act on it or fully appreciate it. Our language tends to use the word "love" cheaply and simply but that doesn't mean it is.

I would also posit that many of the other words you use to describe God require love as an overarching or foundational quality.

Creativity is powered by love. Justice without love? Well, our culture is showing us the limitations of that. Mercy without love? Difficult I think wisdom, power, judgment and "heavenly" parenting all depend on a foundation of love as well. Without love, I would argue these qualities cannot exist. Or if they do, exist in a truncated form. Of course, this is debatable...

I realize that many of us rely on the "sacrifice" of Jesus but even that is based on love. Without love, there is no sacrifice. John 15:13. To me, the cross is more about love than sacrifice. And therefore, God's love will have to suffice.

JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

---

So God does punish?

---

Did Jesus receive punishment for our sins?
Did God ever punish Israel for their disobedience and unfaithfulness?
Will God not punish Satan and his angels?

---

and me?

---

Do you agree that the answer to your question is yes, God does punish?

---

I believe it's all grace - no punishment.
But what say you ?

---

Like I already said, Hell is not "punishment." It is the eternal separation from God that the person chose.

---

Eternal separation? What about a God of eternal love; would that God not give us a chance to repent? In a classical theism God is love so is that love terminated at death?