Waco1947 said:

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"If you have a child which would did you create to suffer for eternity for the greater good?: Lib, Mr Bear

Good question.

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your wording is a bit awkward but, I believe you just described what God did with "His only begotten ".

If there is no hell, why did God make His son suffer?

bearhouse said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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bearhouse said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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NeuroticBear said:

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Hell is a fiction.

Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.

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Jesus spoke of it. Did He lie?

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No. But it is possible we have misunderstood him.

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Nope.

Jesus' statements are internally consistent and send a clear, unambiguous message.

Also, consider Christ's willingness to die on the cross for us. Such a terrible torment would only be accepted if the alternative was much worse. Christ literally died a horrible death in excruciating pain because if he did not we would suffer even worse pain eternally.

Please do not trivialize the suffering of Jesus Christ or discount his courage.

---

Nope.

Jesus himself said in Matthew !3:11-13 that his teaching is ambiguous and purposely so. Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus. And even the apostles were often confused (its in the Bible).

Furthermore, the Psalms states it is to the glory of God to conceal things, and to the glory of kings to search them out.

God gave us a desire to search for Him and know Him. He created a wonderful mystery. However, our understanding is limited. While I respect your perspective as a fellow person of faith, don't be too quick to assume I am discrediting the cross. Just because you accuse me of that, does not make it true.

---

I've been away from this thread for the better part of the day and it may have already gone in another direction, I'm not caught up yet. But, here is what popped into my head reading your post above.

Why would we fear a God of love unless there was something to fear. Christ didn't warn us about our imaginations here.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

I believe I said that a few hours ago.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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"If you have a child which would did you create to suffer for eternity for the greater good?: Lib, Mr Bear

Good question.

---

your wording is a bit awkward but, I believe you just described what God did with "His only begotten ".

---

Yes, I did. Good catch. That is the scenario I described.
But this difference is I don't believe in this all knowing of yours.
All theological statements are grounded in love. God is love and Jesus came from that love but died because of human evil. God I'm God's love redeemed that death with resurrection.

Waco1947 said:

---

My ultimate conviction and the foundation of my faith is that "God is love." Scripture confirms that conviction.
Thus all my other faith statements including my death and the death of us all, are grounded in the basic, ultimate conviction that "God is love." God's love trumps all other theological statements and is the ground for all faith statements.
I and you will die into the loving arms of God.

---

and what of Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Brian Laundrie, Billy Graham, Mother Teresa...the repentant, the non-repentant?

"Is it possible that you may have misunderstood the passage." Agreed. I misunderstand a lot of things.

I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven and Heaven are synonymous. The classical view is that Christians will enter Heaven based on the fundamental ideas expressed throughout this thread (belief, faith, repentance, baptism, etc). However, if you read through the posts you will see that there is not universal agreement on what is needed even though I suspect we all share a common belief in Jesus. For instance, the thief on the cross certainly wasn't baptized. And if so, does it matter if it was infant or as an adult? Spinkled or full dunk? And to add to it, some on the thread wonder if this benefit is eternal (once saved, always saved).

When I think about the Lord's Prayer, I believe Jesus is teaching us to call Heaven to this place. This place now. Not some place we go when we die. It also seems to me that Heaven is less about a place and more about a process of living or a way of living. It is what is in your heart. And the underlying value is love.

Waco47's 1st premise is that God is love. I would qualify it by saying God is agape love. Unconditional love. This is the highest love possible. It can be sacrificial in nature but it does not have to be. However, by definition it asks nothing from the recipient. The 2nd premise is essentially suggesting that we bring Heaven to earth when we love God and love others.

1. God is unconditional love
2. God commands us to offer unconditional love to ALL. As an aside, I can offer unconditional love to someone without them accepting it. Thus, they do not have to "receive" it for it to be so.
3. When we offer unconditional love we are entering His kingdom here and now. Heaven on earth.

Does this fit with Catholic theology as you know it?

bearhouse said:

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"Is it possible that you may have misunderstood the passage." Agreed. I misunderstand a lot of things.

I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven and Heaven are synonymous. The classical view is that Christians will enter Heaven based on the fundamental ideas expressed throughout this thread (belief, faith, repentance, baptism, etc). However, if you read through the posts you will see that there is not universal agreement on what is needed even though I suspect we all share a common belief in Jesus. For instance, the thief on the cross certainly wasn't baptized. And if so, does it matter if it was infant or as an adult? Spinkled or full dunk? And to add to it, some on the thread wonder if this benefit is eternal (once saved, always saved).

When I think about the Lord's Prayer, I believe Jesus is teaching us to call Heaven to this place. This place now. Not some place we go when we die. It also seems to me that Heaven is less about a place and more about a process of living or a way of living. It is what is in your heart. And the underlying value is love.

Waco47's 1st premise is that God is love. I would qualify it by saying God is agape love. Unconditional love. This is the highest love possible. It can be sacrificial in nature but it does not have to be. However, by definition it asks nothing from the recipient. The 2nd premise is essentially suggesting that we bring Heaven to earth when we love God and love others.

1. God is unconditional love
2. God commands us to offer unconditional love to ALL. As an aside, I can offer unconditional love to someone without them accepting it. Thus, they do not have to "receive" it for it to be so.
3. When we offer unconditional love we are entering His kingdom here and now. Heaven on earth.

Does this fit with Catholic theology as you know it?

---

Thanks for the catch. Yes, I meant agape - unconditional love.

bearhouse said:

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trey3216 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

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God doesn't forgive all sin. He forgives sin which we voluntarily acknowledge and ask forgiveness from ( in a vacuum). Sinning willfully without remorse is not Godly, because you're not acknowledging that it is sin.

---

This is an interesting point. So are you saying that the cross is ineffective unless we believe? If that is true, what saves us? God or our belief about God? And since we know man is lacking in knowledge, is it a particular, right belief? What if two believers can't agree about baptism, or predestination, or election or once saved, always saved doctrine.

Further, if we do not ask for forgiveness, does this mean God is holding a grudge? Is God remaining in a place of judgment on us only to be relieved by our "ask." If so, does that mean we are the authors of our fate?

I thought that people have been reasoning here that the Jesus's sacrifice on the cross saves you from eternal hell. Perhaps we need to add that Jesus's sacrifice alone is not sufficient. We need sacrifice + our "right" belief + repentance + some form of baptism + ...is there anything else?

Seems to me all of these issues create argument and division. Whereas, "love one another as I have loved you" does not.

---

is surrender a plus? Is giving up an action?

I think we can all agree that the thief on the cross is in heaven. We never learn if he was baptized between bank jobs or not. We do know he surrendered. He knew he was not worthy of heaven but only Christ was.

Waco1947 said:

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No, I am not preaching universalism. I preach the good news of Jesus Christ, the one in whom is personified for Christians the love of God.

I am do believe that for other religions that universalism applies to them.

But I am a Christian and I stand within the Christian faith and tradition.

---

"The good news" implies there is also bad.

"No one comes to the Father except through Me".

Who needs a Savior unless there is something to be saved from?

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

"The wages of sin is death " sounds transactional.

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

---

Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.

We are saying:

• God love us all.
• He wants us to be with Him.
• If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
• If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.

We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.

Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.

---

I would suggest that God's love trumps God's retribution justice.

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Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

I fail to see your trump card here

bearhouse said:

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Coke Bear said:

---

Good Questions!

bearhouse said:

---

Point 3. What did Jesus command of us to do?

---

Jesus gives us many commands. He tells us to follow His commandments. He tells us to perform the Corporal Works of Mercy (feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, etc.) He tells us love children. He also gives us the Great Commission - Go throughout the world and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

bearhouse said:

---

Point 4. Where does Jesus tell us this Kingdom of Heaven is?

---

In Matthew 5 - in the Beatitudes, Jesus states that the "Clean of heart will see God". In Matthew 18, Jesus discusses seeing the face of God. Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? It is being the presence of God.

---

Those many commands can be summarized by loving God and loving one another.

Yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Luke 17:21 It is present in your "clean heart." This implies that the Kingdom of Heaven can be experienced now and is not an after death location. It is experienced in the now by obeying the commands Jesus gave us. Love God and love one another.

Are we in agreement on these two points?

---

Continue to read this passage, at least through verse 30 and let us know what you think.

Oldbear83 said:

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I believe I said that a few hours ago.

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yep. I hadn't got to that point yet.

Something about gutter minds think alike?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I believe I said that a few hours ago.

---

yep. I hadn't got to that point yet.

Something about gutter minds think alike?

---

Maybe so

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

But Jesus IS the Resurrection

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Good Questions!

bearhouse said:

---

Point 3. What did Jesus command of us to do?

---

Jesus gives us many commands. He tells us to follow His commandments. He tells us to perform the Corporal Works of Mercy (feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, etc.) He tells us love children. He also gives us the Great Commission - Go throughout the world and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

bearhouse said:

---

Point 4. Where does Jesus tell us this Kingdom of Heaven is?

---

In Matthew 5 - in the Beatitudes, Jesus states that the "Clean of heart will see God". In Matthew 18, Jesus discusses seeing the face of God. Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? It is being the presence of God.

---

Those many commands can be summarized by loving God and loving one another.

Yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Luke 17:21 It is present in your "clean heart." This implies that the Kingdom of Heaven can be experienced now and is not an after death location. It is experienced in the now by obeying the commands Jesus gave us. Love God and love one another.

Are we in agreement on these two points?

---

Continue to read this passage, at least through verse 30 and let us know what you think.

---

How do you read it as it pertains to this discussion?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

---

Have you noticed a tendency to cry out for justice for the "other" and "mercy" for the self? We all want justice unless it is applying to our own life. Then we all want mercy. Perhaps we would be wise to leave justice and mercy to God. And trust that His perfect love will respond appropriately.

bearhouse said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Good Questions!

bearhouse said:

---

Point 3. What did Jesus command of us to do?

---

Jesus gives us many commands. He tells us to follow His commandments. He tells us to perform the Corporal Works of Mercy (feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, etc.) He tells us love children. He also gives us the Great Commission - Go throughout the world and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

bearhouse said:

---

Point 4. Where does Jesus tell us this Kingdom of Heaven is?

---

In Matthew 5 - in the Beatitudes, Jesus states that the "Clean of heart will see God". In Matthew 18, Jesus discusses seeing the face of God. Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? It is being the presence of God.

---

Those many commands can be summarized by loving God and loving one another.

Yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Luke 17:21 It is present in your "clean heart." This implies that the Kingdom of Heaven can be experienced now and is not an after death location. It is experienced in the now by obeying the commands Jesus gave us. Love God and love one another.

Are we in agreement on these two points?

---

Continue to read this passage, at least through verse 30 and let us know what you think.

---

How do you read it as it pertains to this discussion?

---

In my best 4th grade voice: I asked you first!

I'll be waiting by the swing sets for your answer.

bearhouse said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

---

Have you noticed a tendency to cry out for justice for the "other" and "mercy" for the self? We all want justice unless it is applying to our own life. Then we all want mercy. Perhaps we would be wise to leave justice and mercy to God. And trust that His perfect love will respond appropriately.

---

great commentary. Is there an answer hidden in there?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

---

Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.

We are saying:

• God love us all.
• He wants us to be with Him.
• If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
• If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.

We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.

Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.

---

I would suggest that God's love trumps God's retribution justice.

---

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

I fail to see your trump card here

---

"whoever does not obey the Son"

The son commanded two things from us. Agape love of God and Agape love of our neighbor. When asked who is my "neighbor", he told the story of the Good Samaritan. They were the religious enemies of the Jews. So, Jesus basically said Agape (love unconditionally) everyone. This is easily understood from the text.

Are you suggesting that while God commands us to unconditionally love everyone, God does not? We are supposed to love people who reject us. However, if you reject God...wrath!

God will not ask us to do more than He does. If he commands us to love everyone, God will do the same. And what is eternal life if it is not the eternal love of God?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Good Questions!

bearhouse said:

---

Point 3. What did Jesus command of us to do?

---

Jesus gives us many commands. He tells us to follow His commandments. He tells us to perform the Corporal Works of Mercy (feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, etc.) He tells us love children. He also gives us the Great Commission - Go throughout the world and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

bearhouse said:

---

Point 4. Where does Jesus tell us this Kingdom of Heaven is?

---

In Matthew 5 - in the Beatitudes, Jesus states that the "Clean of heart will see God". In Matthew 18, Jesus discusses seeing the face of God. Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? It is being the presence of God.

---

Those many commands can be summarized by loving God and loving one another.

Yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Luke 17:21 It is present in your "clean heart." This implies that the Kingdom of Heaven can be experienced now and is not an after death location. It is experienced in the now by obeying the commands Jesus gave us. Love God and love one another.

Are we in agreement on these two points?

---

Continue to read this passage, at least through verse 30 and let us know what you think.

---

How do you read it as it pertains to this discussion?

---

In my best 4th grade voice: I asked you first!

I'll be waiting by the swing sets for your answer.

---

Crud. I was hoping you'd give me a clue what you were thinking. I'll have to read it more thoroughly and pray about it. LOL.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

---

Have you noticed a tendency to cry out for justice for the "other" and "mercy" for the self? We all want justice unless it is applying to our own life. Then we all want mercy. Perhaps we would be wise to leave justice and mercy to God. And trust that His perfect love will respond appropriately.

---

great commentary. Is there an answer hidden in there?

---

Of course, I trust in the loving justice and mercy of God more than I do the humans who will condemn me any chance they get. Perhaps, Heaven needs a new cardio instructor. I don't work in HR.

But I am glad you love 47 and the AxeKiller equally. That is what God asked of us.

bearhouse said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

---

Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.

We are saying:

• God love us all.
• He wants us to be with Him.
• If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
• If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.

We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.

Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.

---

I would suggest that God's love trumps God's retribution justice.

---

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

I fail to see your trump card here

---

"whoever does not obey the Son"

The son commanded two things from us. Agape love of God and Agape love of our neighbor. When asked who is my "neighbor", he told the story of the Good Samaritan. They were the religious enemies of the Jews. So, Jesus basically said Agape (love unconditionally) everyone. This is easily understood from the text.

Are you suggesting that while God commands us to unconditionally love everyone, God does not? We are supposed to love people who reject us. However, if you reject God...wrath!

God will not ask us to do more than He does. If he commands us to love everyone, God will do the same. And what is eternal life if it is not the eternal love of God?

---

Why do you suppose 5 virgins got into the wedding banquet and 5 were locked out in Matt 25?

bearhouse said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

---

Have you noticed a tendency to cry out for justice for the "other" and "mercy" for the self? We all want justice unless it is applying to our own life. Then we all want mercy. Perhaps we would be wise to leave justice and mercy to God. And trust that His perfect love will respond appropriately.

---

great commentary. Is there an answer hidden in there?

---

Of course, I trust in the loving justice and mercy of God more than I do the humans who will condemn me any chance they get. Perhaps, Heaven needs a new cardio instructor. I don't work in HR.

But I am glad you love 47 and the AxeKiller equally. That is what God asked of us.

---

Can the mother of the axe murderer love her son while he serves a life sentence?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

---

Yes we both end up in heaven. But your imagery is a little mean. Yes, we both end in heaven as do you Lib.

bearhouse said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

---

Have you noticed a tendency to cry out for justice for the "other" and "mercy" for the self? We all want justice unless it is applying to our own life. Then we all want mercy. Perhaps we would be wise to leave justice and mercy to God. And trust that His perfect love will respond appropriately.

---

I think it's more than that. Let me give an example, please:

My sister was abused by her first husband. Badly and repeatedly. She hid it from the family for a long time, and when my brother and I found out, we were united in anger for the first time in a long while, to the point of planning violence against the husband (my brother has his faults but has never in his life been in a fight or supported violence except for this situation).

But my sister plead for us to let it go, that the abuser was not worth what it would cost us to do to him what he had coming. So at first we did not have forgiveness in our hearts, but we held back from violence and focused on helping our sister.

Later we were able to forgive the man, as his alcoholism and other bad behaviors left him ruined. I guess it was pity more than really forgiving even then, because I realized he was going to suffer through his own choices even if we never did or said a thing, while my sister would be fine through the love of her new husband and the support of her family.

But I also understood that this bad man was not so far from what any of us could become, if we made the wrong choices or handled a tough situation badly. That helped me to consider forgiving people in other situations, like the man who was my assistant at a job and got me fired so he could have my job, or the people who stole my car in 2005, or the people who chose not to hire me in 2018 because they were bigoted against senior workers. In each case I suffered from someone's wrongdoing, and in all of the cases it was behavior I was not myself guilty of nor would ever do, but I recognized that I myself was guilty of sins that other people might not ever do, and while I was angry at being hurt by their actions, I learned to separate the sin from the sinner so to speak, although that process takes longer sometimes than others,

Justice is not punishment, it's making things right. That's scary to me, because you can always punish someone but sometimes it's hard to know what you can do to make things right when you screw up.

We all need mercy, and we should all desire yet fear Justice.

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

---

Yes we both end up in heaven. But your imagery is a little mean. Yes, we both end in heaven as do you Lib.

---

You said you were not preaching universalism, but that's exactly what this is.

---

I appreciate the criticism. Where I did I go wrong?

bearhouse said:

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I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven and Heaven are synonymous. The classical view is that Christians will enter Heaven based on the fundamental ideas expressed throughout this thread (belief, faith, repentance, baptism, etc). However, if you read through the posts you will see that there is not universal agreement on what is needed even though I suspect we all share a common belief in Jesus. For instance, the thief on the cross certainly wasn't baptized. And if so, does it matter if it was infant or as an adult? Spinkled or full dunk? And to add to it, some on the thread wonder if this benefit is eternal (once saved, always saved).

---

I can only speak knowledgeably about the Catholic view of salvation, baptism, etc. As I mentioned earlier, the first 1500+ years of Christianity, the views were all the same. 504 years ago on All Hallow's Eve (Oct 31) Martin Luther started a new path which has led to the divisions that we see today - over 30,000 different denominations. If a person doesn't like the theology of pastor X, that person will start his own church. This is why we have so many varying beliefs about these topics.

bearhouse said:

---

1. God is unconditional love
2. God commands us to offer unconditional love to ALL. As an aside, I can offer unconditional love to someone without them accepting it. Thus, they do not have to "receive" it for it to be so.
3. When we offer unconditional love we are entering His kingdom here and now. Heaven on earth.

Does this fit with Catholic theology as you know it?

---

I'm on board with 1 and 2. I'm not quite sure about 3 with respect to Catholic theology. Yes, we are called to unconditional love; however, I do not believe the the Church would call that Heaven on earth. I guess I don't know what "Heaven on earth" means. It would be helpful to have a definition of that phrase.

Waco1947 said:

---

I appreciate the criticism. Where I did I go wrong?

---

With the belief that all will enter Heaven because God love us unconditionally.

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

---

Yes we both end up in heaven. But your imagery is a little mean. Yes, we both end in heaven as do you Lib.

---

it was not intended to be mean but only extreme to help illustrate a point. Had I wanted to be mean, he would have forced you to yell gig'em and wear moron, I mean maroon.

I do not like the word existential. I do not like the phrases "We're all in this together". Or " The new normal.". Or "Circle back". Woke, Influencer, and " We remain cautious" are also on the list.

I reckon I am the old dude shaking my fist at the clouds.

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

---

I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?

---

Yes we both end up in heaven. But your imagery is a little mean. Yes, we both end in heaven as do you Lib.

---

So to be clear, you believe Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Adolph Hitler and the narcissistic atheist who only loves himself will all be in heaven together regardless of repentance?