My ultimate conviction and the foundation of my faith is that "God is love." Scripture confirms that conviction.
Thus all my other faith statements including my death and the death of us all, are grounded in the basic, ultimate conviction that "God is love." God's love trumps all other theological statements and is the ground for all faith statements.
I and you will die into the loving arms of God.

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

Waco1947 said:

---

My ultimate conviction and the foundation of my faith is that "God is love." Scripture confirms that conviction.
Thus all my other faith statements including my death and the death of us all, are grounded in the basic, ultimate conviction that "God is love." God's love trumps all other theological statements and is the ground for all faith statements.
I and you will die into the loving arms of God.

---

Yes, my favorite book in the Bible, 1 John, is all about God's love. But note that God cannot force anyone to love Him, even as we can't force anyone to love us. He loves the atheist enough to allow the atheist to have free will and make a choice, and if the atheist chooses separation from God, then God will honor that choice.

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

My ultimate conviction and the foundation of my faith is that "God is love." Scripture confirms that conviction.
Thus all my other faith statements including my death and the death of us all, are grounded in the basic, ultimate conviction that "God is love." God's love trumps all other theological statements and is the ground for all faith statements.
I and you will die into the loving arms of God.

---

Yes, my favorite book in the Bible, 1 John, is all about God's love. But note that God cannot force anyone to love Him, even as we can't force anyone to love us. He loves the atheist enough to allow the atheist to have free will and make a choice, and if the atheist chooses separation from God, then God will honor that choice.

---

Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

bearhouse said:

---

Nope.

Jesus himself said in Matthew !3:11-13 that his teaching is ambiguous and purposely so. Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus. And even the apostles were often confused (its in the Bible).

Furthermore, the Psalms states it is to the glory of God to conceal things, and to the glory of kings to search them out.

God gave us a desire to search for Him and know Him. He created a wonderful mystery. However, our understanding is limited. While I respect your perspective as a fellow person of faith, don't be too quick to assume I am discrediting the cross. Just because you accuse me of that, does not make it true.

---

I believe that you're using a very narrow approach to this limited passage.

Yes, the He was ambiguous to some, but he explains Himself later to his disciples and at Pentecost He sent the Holy Spirit to help them understand more.

Today, we understand those scripture passages. Being Catholic, I'm blessed with the magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church, formed of the Bishops. It is one of the three sources of authority alongside scripture and tradition) and 2000 years of greatest minds in the world to help me understand passages.

Waco1947 said:

---

Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

---

Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.

We are saying:

• God love us all.
• He wants us to be with Him.
• If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
• If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.

We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.

Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

---

Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.

We are saying:

• God love us all.
• He wants us to be with Him.
• If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
• If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.

We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.

Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.

---

Point 3. What did Jesus command of us to do?
Point 4. Where does Jesus tell us this Kingdom of Heaven is?

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

---

Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.

We are saying:

• God love us all.
• He wants us to be with Him.
• If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
• If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.

We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.

Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.

---

I am asserting that the Biblical command (to love God, self and others) is paramount to any discussion about God and hell. God's love is the all in all of the universe. We live and move and have our being in God's love. God's love supersedes any statements about hell, rejection of God, and some kind justice for a sinful life.

bearhouse said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

---

Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.

We are saying:

• God love us all.
• He wants us to be with Him.
• If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
• If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.

We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.

Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.

---

Point 3. What did Jesus command of us to do? "To love the Lord our God and our neighbors as ourselves."
Point 4. Where does Jesus tell us this Kingdom of Heaven is? "The kingdom here and is coming on earth."

---

Waco1947 said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

---

Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.

We are saying:

• God love us all.
• He wants us to be with Him.
• If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
• If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.

We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.

Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.

---

Point 3. What did Jesus command of us to do? "To love the Lord our God and our neighbors as ourselves."
Point 4. Where does Jesus tell us this Kingdom of Heaven is? "The kingdom here and is coming on earth."

---

---

CokeBear. Based on your third premise would you then agree that:
Point 3. We can experience the Kingdom of Heaven and relationship with God by following Jesus's command to love God and love our neighbor as ourself? Is this all that is required?

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

My ultimate conviction and the foundation of my faith is that "God is love." Scripture confirms that conviction.
Thus all my other faith statements including my death and the death of us all, are grounded in the basic, ultimate conviction that "God is love." God's love trumps all other theological statements and is the ground for all faith statements.
I and you will die into the loving arms of God.

---

Yes, my favorite book in the Bible, 1 John, is all about God's love. But note that God cannot force anyone to love Him, even as we can't force anyone to love us. He loves the atheist enough to allow the atheist to have free will and make a choice, and if the atheist chooses separation from God, then God will honor that choice.

---

Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

---

If the atheist chooses to reject God and does not want to be in His presence, should God force the atheist into Heaven anyway?

bearhouse said:

---

CokeBear. Based on your third premise would you then agree that:
Point 3. We can experience the Kingdom of Heaven and relationship with God by following Jesus's command to love God and love our neighbor as ourself? Is this all that is required?

---

In a word, NO.

Without getting too deep, Salvation requires three things:

Believe, Repent, and be Baptized.

Now, as a Catholic, we reject the Once Saved, Always Saved theology. We believe one can lose salvation by committing a mortal sin. We can obtain it again with perfect repentance.

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

Good Questions!

bearhouse said:

---

Point 3. What did Jesus command of us to do?

---

Jesus gives us many commands. He tells us to follow His commandments. He tells us to perform the Corporal Works of Mercy (feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, etc.) He tells us love children. He also gives us the Great Commission - Go throughout the world and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

bearhouse said:

---

Point 4. Where does Jesus tell us this Kingdom of Heaven is?

---

In Matthew 5 - in the Beatitudes, Jesus states that the "Clean of heart will see God". In Matthew 18, Jesus discusses seeing the face of God. Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? It is being the presence of God.

Coke Bear said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

CokeBear. Based on your third premise would you then agree that:
Point 3. We can experience the Kingdom of Heaven and relationship with God by following Jesus's command to love God and love our neighbor as ourself? Is this all that is required?

---

In a word, NO.

Without getting too deep, Salvation requires three things:

Believe, Repent, and be Baptized.

Now, as a Catholic, we reject the Once Saved, Always Saved theology. We believe one can lose salvation by committing a mortal sin. We can obtain it again with perfect repentance.

---

I always regarded that notion as "IF Saved, ALWAYS Saved"

I think God knows our paths and makes His choices in that knowledge. Look at the lives of David and Jacob in the OT and Saul/Paul in the NT to see that sometimes it appears God refuses to let someone give up, while others go their doom with only the Scriptural version of 'Bye Felicia'.

That is, God knows who will listen and respond, and who will not, even if they fool themselves into believing they are really following Christ.

IF we listen to GOD and seek Him, then He will never fail us. But if we are like Caiaphas, who despite meeting Christ never knew Him ...

Oldbear83 said:

---

I always regarded that notion as "IF Saved, ALWAYS Saved"

I think God knows our paths and makes His choices in that knowledge. Look at the lives of David and Jacob in the OT and Saul/Paul in the NT to see that sometimes it appears God refuses to let someone give up, while others go their doom with only the Scriptural version of 'Bye Felicia'.

That is, God knows who will listen and respond, and who will not, even if they fool themselves into believing they are really following Christ.

IF we listen to GOD and seek Him, then He will never fail us. But if we are like Caiaphas, who despite meeting Christ never knew Him ...

---

I was hesitant to add that last part because it really didn't want to get into that theology on this thread. I opened it up and I apologize for that.

I, and the first 1500 hundred years of Christianity, disagree with that theology.

I'm happy to discuss this with you offline or in another thread.

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

I don't want to speak for Waco but I think he is preaching universalism.

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

I always regarded that notion as "IF Saved, ALWAYS Saved"

I think God knows our paths and makes His choices in that knowledge. Look at the lives of David and Jacob in the OT and Saul/Paul in the NT to see that sometimes it appears God refuses to let someone give up, while others go their doom with only the Scriptural version of 'Bye Felicia'.

That is, God knows who will listen and respond, and who will not, even if they fool themselves into believing they are really following Christ.

IF we listen to GOD and seek Him, then He will never fail us. But if we are like Caiaphas, who despite meeting Christ never knew Him ...

---

I was hesitant to add that last part because it really didn't want to get into that theology on this thread. I opened it up and I apologize for that.

I, and the first 1500 hundred years of Christianity, disagree with that theology.

I'm happy to discuss this with you offline or in another thread.

---

Thanks Coke Bear, I think this would make a good thread topic

JXL said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

---

Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

---

Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

---

I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

---

I don't want to speak for Waco but I think he is preaching universalism.

---

.. with the "I" Capitalized ...

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

God doesn't forgive all sin. He forgives sin which we voluntarily acknowledge and ask forgiveness from ( in a vacuum). Sinning willfully without remorse is not Godly, because you're not acknowledging that it is sin.

Coke Bear said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

Nope.

Jesus himself said in Matthew !3:11-13 that his teaching is ambiguous and purposely so. Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus. And even the apostles were often confused (its in the Bible).

Furthermore, the Psalms states it is to the glory of God to conceal things, and to the glory of kings to search them out.

God gave us a desire to search for Him and know Him. He created a wonderful mystery. However, our understanding is limited. While I respect your perspective as a fellow person of faith, don't be too quick to assume I am discrediting the cross. Just because you accuse me of that, does not make it true.

---

I believe that you're using a very narrow approach to this limited passage.

Yes, the He was ambiguous to some, but he explains Himself later to his disciples and at Pentecost He sent the Holy Spirit to help them understand more.

Today, we understand those scripture passages. Being Catholic, I'm blessed with the magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church, formed of the Bishops. It is one of the three sources of authority alongside scripture and tradition) and 2000 years of greatest minds in the world to help me understand passages.

---

They are men. Men cannot know the mind of God, therefore teachings as those are not the mind of God, they are the mind of men attempting to be a supplicant of the mind of God. Doesn't work that way.

trey3216 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

God doesn't forgive all sin. He forgives sin which we voluntarily acknowledge and ask forgiveness from ( in a vacuum). Sinning willfully without remorse is not Godly, because you're not acknowledging that it is sin.

---

This is an interesting point. So are you saying that the cross is ineffective unless we believe? If that is true, what saves us? God or our belief about God? And since we know man is lacking in knowledge, is it a particular, right belief? What if two believers can't agree about baptism, or predestination, or election or once saved, always saved doctrine.

Further, if we do not ask for forgiveness, does this mean God is holding a grudge? Is God remaining in a place of judgment on us only to be relieved by our "ask." If so, does that mean we are the authors of our fate?

I thought that people have been reasoning here that the Jesus's sacrifice on the cross saves you from eternal hell. Perhaps we need to add that Jesus's sacrifice alone is not sufficient. We need sacrifice + our "right" belief + repentance + some form of baptism + ...is there anything else?

Seems to me all of these issues create argument and division. Whereas, "love one another as I have loved you" does not.

bearhouse said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

God doesn't forgive all sin. He forgives sin which we voluntarily acknowledge and ask forgiveness from ( in a vacuum). Sinning willfully without remorse is not Godly, because you're not acknowledging that it is sin.

---

This is an interesting point. So are you saying that the cross is ineffective unless we believe? If that is true, what saves us? God or our belief about God? And since we know man is lacking in knowledge, is it a particular, right belief? What if two believers can't agree about baptism, or predestination, or election or once saved, always saved doctrine.

Further, if we do not ask for forgiveness, does this mean God is holding a grudge? Is God remaining in a place of judgment on us only to be relieved by our "ask." If so, does that mean we are the authors of our fate?

I thought that people have been reasoning here that the Jesus's sacrifice on the cross saves you from eternal hell. Perhaps we need to add that Jesus's sacrifice alone is not sufficient. We need sacrifice + our "right" belief + repentance + some form of baptism + ...is there anything else?

Seems to me all of these issues create argument and division. Whereas, "love one another as I have loved you" does not.

---

I think it's important to understand who God wants us to be.

We are able to make moral choices, and indeed doing so defines who and what we are.

But if a choice is really made, then there are consequences for that choice, according to the goodness or baseness of that choice.

Any good done matters, even the smallest. We are meant to become more than we were, and even the smallest step forward is still moving the right direction.

No one on this side of death is wise enough to explain the value of living a life which ends in destruction through a fatal choice, but the truth of that is plain enough for those willing to look for it.

No, I am not preaching universalism. I preach the good news of Jesus Christ, the one in whom is personified for Christians the love of God.

I am do believe that for other religions that universalism applies to them.

But I am a Christian and I stand within the Christian faith and tradition.

bearhouse said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

God doesn't forgive all sin. He forgives sin which we voluntarily acknowledge and ask forgiveness from ( in a vacuum). Sinning willfully without remorse is not Godly, because you're not acknowledging that it is sin.

---

This is an interesting point. So are you saying that the cross is ineffective unless we believe? If that is true, what saves us? God or our belief about God? And since we know man is lacking in knowledge, is it a particular, right belief? What if two believers can't agree about baptism, or predestination, or election or once saved, always saved doctrine.

Further, if we do not ask for forgiveness, does this mean God is holding a grudge? Is God remaining in a place of judgment on us only to be relieved by our "ask." If so, does that mean we are the authors of our fate?

I thought that people have been reasoning here that the Jesus's sacrifice on the cross saves you from eternal hell. Perhaps we need to add that Jesus's sacrifice alone is not sufficient. We need sacrifice + our "right" belief + repentance + some form of baptism + ...is there anything else?

Seems to me all of these issues create argument and division. Whereas, "love one another as I have loved you" does not.

---

The cross is like Noah's ark. You aren't gonna be saved from the impending destruction just by virtue of Noah having built it. You still gotta get in.

You only need to look at the thief on the cross to know what is needed to be saved.

Actually, division is not necessarily bad or wrong. In fact, Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace but division. If you read the book of Revelation and Jesus' message to the seven churches, it is clear he demands church purity, meaning to be separate from false teaching and those who justify sin. Did you know the OP (Waco47) does NOT believe that God created the heavens and the earth (the very first verse of the bible), and he does NOT believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus? "Love one another"? Sure. But division from false beliefs and doctrine? Absolutely. Jesus demands it from his church.

trey3216 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

bearhouse said:

---

Nope.

Jesus himself said in Matthew !3:11-13 that his teaching is ambiguous and purposely so. Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus. And even the apostles were often confused (its in the Bible).

Furthermore, the Psalms states it is to the glory of God to conceal things, and to the glory of kings to search them out.

God gave us a desire to search for Him and know Him. He created a wonderful mystery. However, our understanding is limited. While I respect your perspective as a fellow person of faith, don't be too quick to assume I am discrediting the cross. Just because you accuse me of that, does not make it true.

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I believe that you're using a very narrow approach to this limited passage.

Yes, the He was ambiguous to some, but he explains Himself later to his disciples and at Pentecost He sent the Holy Spirit to help them understand more.

Today, we understand those scripture passages. Being Catholic, I'm blessed with the magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church, formed of the Bishops. It is one of the three sources of authority alongside scripture and tradition) and 2000 years of greatest minds in the world to help me understand passages.

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They are men. Men cannot know the mind of God, therefore teachings as those are not the mind of God, they are the mind of men attempting to be a supplicant of the mind of God. Doesn't work that way.

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True; the authority of the scriptures is over the Bishops.

Oldbear83 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

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Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

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Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.

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I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?

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Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.

JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."

OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

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Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

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Matt. 7:22
Matthew 22:39 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life. Matthew 22:39 Jesus states "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself." What does this command mean? It means that yes in order to love God true in our hearts that we also love our neighbors true in our hearts. For God is love and loving him loyally means the feeling of love can inspire us to love others.

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I agree with you

Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?

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Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.

We are saying:

• God love us all.
• He wants us to be with Him.
• If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
• If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.

We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.

Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.

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I would suggest that God's love trumps God's retribution justice.

Waco: "Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross."

If the only purpose was to show love, God had no need to put His Son through the shame, horror and half a day of unbearable pain, then to die while being mocked and abused.

There was purpose, holy purpose, in Christ's death. You seem unable to acknowledge that purpose, Waco,

Coke Bear said:

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Good Questions!

bearhouse said:

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Point 3. What did Jesus command of us to do?

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Jesus gives us many commands. He tells us to follow His commandments. He tells us to perform the Corporal Works of Mercy (feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, etc.) He tells us love children. He also gives us the Great Commission - Go throughout the world and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

bearhouse said:

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Point 4. Where does Jesus tell us this Kingdom of Heaven is?

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In Matthew 5 - in the Beatitudes, Jesus states that the "Clean of heart will see God". In Matthew 18, Jesus discusses seeing the face of God. Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? It is being the presence of God.

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Those many commands can be summarized by loving God and loving one another.

Yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Luke 17:21 It is present in your "clean heart." This implies that the Kingdom of Heaven can be experienced now and is not an after death location. It is experienced in the now by obeying the commands Jesus gave us. Love God and love one another.

Are we in agreement on these two points?

trey3216 said:

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They are men. Men cannot know the mind of God, therefore teachings as those are not the mind of God, they are the mind of men attempting to be a supplicant of the mind of God. Doesn't work that way.

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Please show me Sola Scriptura in the Bible.

Jesus came to establish a Church, not a book. He ordained men to carry on His mission. Those men had successors. He promised in Matthew 16:18 that he would not abandon the Church and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it.

bearhouse said:

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Those many commands can be summarized by loving God and loving one another.

Yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Luke 17:21 It is present in your "clean heart." This implies that the Kingdom of Heaven can be experienced now and is not an after death location. It is experienced in the now by obeying the commands Jesus gave us. Love God and love one another.

Are we in agreement on these two points?

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Possibly.

Is it possible that you may have misunderstood the passage ...

The Coming of the Kingdom

20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

It appears to me that Jesus is using this statement in the negative his quotation of the Pharisees, not affirming that heaven is on earth.

To help me understand better, please explain to me what you mean by the "Kingdom of Heaven."

I offer the Catechism of the Catholic Church definition:

CCC 1023: Heaven - Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified [whether in this life, or in the next life in Purgatory] live forever with Christ. They are like God forever, for they "see him as he is," face to face.

CCC 1033: Hell - ... This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."