I agree with you about what does Heaven on earth mean. I know that I do not fully understand it or what it means when we talk about the kingdom being inside of you. The way I reason it, however, is resting in the love of God now. That the spiritual kingdom can come to us now when we are aligned with that love. We can spread the kingdom by emulating the love of God to others or, better stated, by following the command of Jesus.Coke Bear said:bearhouse said:
I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven and Heaven are synonymous. The classical view is that Christians will enter Heaven based on the fundamental ideas expressed throughout this thread (belief, faith, repentance, baptism, etc). However, if you read through the posts you will see that there is not universal agreement on what is needed even though I suspect we all share a common belief in Jesus. For instance, the thief on the cross certainly wasn't baptized. And if so, does it matter if it was infant or as an adult? Spinkled or full dunk? And to add to it, some on the thread wonder if this benefit is eternal (once saved, always saved).
I can only speak knowledgeably about the Catholic view of salvation, baptism, etc. As I mentioned earlier, the first 1500+ years of Christianity, the views were all the same. 504 years ago on All Hallow's Eve (Oct 31) Martin Luther started a new path which has led to the divisions that we see today - over 30,000 different denominations. If a person doesn't like the theology of pastor X, that person will start his own church. This is why we have so many varying beliefs about these topics.bearhouse said:
1. God is unconditional love
2. God commands us to offer unconditional love to ALL. As an aside, I can offer unconditional love to someone without them accepting it. Thus, they do not have to "receive" it for it to be so.
3. When we offer unconditional love we are entering His kingdom here and now. Heaven on earth.
Does this fit with Catholic theology as you know it?
I'm on board with 1 and 2. I'm not quite sure about 3 with respect to Catholic theology. Yes, we are called to unconditional love; however, I do not believe the the Church would call that Heaven on earth. I guess I don't know what "Heaven on earth" means. It would be helpful to have a definition of that phrase.
All theological statements are existential
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Last: 2 yr ago by JXL
Five were focused on the divine love of God. Five were focused on worldly concerns. It is descriptive rather than prescriptive.LIB,MR BEARS said:Why do you suppose 5 virgins got into the wedding banquet and 5 were locked out in Matt 25?bearhouse said:"whoever does not obey the Son"LIB,MR BEARS said:Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.Waco1947 said:I would suggest that God's love trumps God's retribution justice.Coke Bear said:Waco1947 said:
Who said anything about forcing? Where do you see that conclusion?
Maybe I'm struggling to see your point. For that, I apologize. We seem to be stating that hell exists and people who reject God will end up in hell.
We are saying:
- God love us all.
- He wants us to be with Him.
- If we obey His commands, we can be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
- If we reject Him, He will give us eternal separation from Him - hell.
We are rejecting the notion that ALL will enter Heaven. It is not just and it's anti-biblical. God is just.
Please simply your point(s) so that was can address them.
I fail to see your trump card here
The son commanded two things from us. Agape love of God and Agape love of our neighbor. When asked who is my "neighbor", he told the story of the Good Samaritan. They were the religious enemies of the Jews. So, Jesus basically said Agape (love unconditionally) everyone. This is easily understood from the text.
Are you suggesting that while God commands us to unconditionally love everyone, God does not? We are supposed to love people who reject us. However, if you reject God...wrath!
God will not ask us to do more than He does. If he commands us to love everyone, God will do the same. And what is eternal life if it is not the eternal love of God?
This is an example of great love! Working through such a difficult situation teaches us so much on how to love.Oldbear83 said:I think it's more than that. Let me give an example, please:bearhouse said:Have you noticed a tendency to cry out for justice for the "other" and "mercy" for the self? We all want justice unless it is applying to our own life. Then we all want mercy. Perhaps we would be wise to leave justice and mercy to God. And trust that His perfect love will respond appropriately.LIB,MR BEARS said:I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?Waco1947 said:Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.Oldbear83 said:I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?JXL said:Waco1947 said:Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.Oldbear83 said:
"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."
OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""
Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.
My sister was abused by her first husband. Badly and repeatedly. She hid it from the family for a long time, and when my brother and I found out, we were united in anger for the first time in a long while, to the point of planning violence against the husband (my brother has his faults but has never in his life been in a fight or supported violence except for this situation).
But my sister plead for us to let it go, that the abuser was not worth what it would cost us to do to him what he had coming. So at first we did not have forgiveness in our hearts, but we held back from violence and focused on helping our sister.
Later we were able to forgive the man, as his alcoholism and other bad behaviors left him ruined. I guess it was pity more than really forgiving even then, because I realized he was going to suffer through his own choices even if we never did or said a thing, while my sister would be fine through the love of her new husband and the support of her family.
But I also understood that this bad man was not so far from what any of us could become, if we made the wrong choices or handled a tough situation badly. That helped me to consider forgiving people in other situations, like the man who was my assistant at a job and got me fired so he could have my job, or the people who stole my car in 2005, or the people who chose not to hire me in 2018 because they were bigoted against senior workers. In each case I suffered from someone's wrongdoing, and in all of the cases it was behavior I was not myself guilty of nor would ever do, but I recognized that I myself was guilty of sins that other people might not ever do, and while I was angry at being hurt by their actions, I learned to separate the sin from the sinner so to speak, although that process takes longer sometimes than others,
Justice is not punishment, it's making things right. That's scary to me, because you can always punish someone but sometimes it's hard to know what you can do to make things right when you screw up.
We all need mercy, and we should all desire yet fear Justice.
I know we may see differently about the idea of hell but I also understand you are motivated by a love that no one should experience that torment. I respect that.
Thank you for your witnessOldbear83 said:I think it's more than that. Let me give an example, please:bearhouse said:Have you noticed a tendency to cry out for justice for the "other" and "mercy" for the self? We all want justice unless it is applying to our own life. Then we all want mercy. Perhaps we would be wise to leave justice and mercy to God. And trust that His perfect love will respond appropriately.LIB,MR BEARS said:I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?Waco1947 said:Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.Oldbear83 said:I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?JXL said:Waco1947 said:Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.Oldbear83 said:
"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."
OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""
Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.
My sister was abused by her first husband. Badly and repeatedly. She hid it from the family for a long time, and when my brother and I found out, we were united in anger for the first time in a long while, to the point of planning violence against the husband (my brother has his faults but has never in his life been in a fight or supported violence except for this situation).
But my sister plead for us to let it go, that the abuser was not worth what it would cost us to do to him what he had coming. So at first we did not have forgiveness in our hearts, but we held back from violence and focused on helping our sister.
Later we were able to forgive the man, as his alcoholism and other bad behaviors left him ruined. I guess it was pity more than really forgiving even then, because I realized he was going to suffer through his own choices even if we never did or said a thing, while my sister would be fine through the love of her new husband and the support of her family.
But I also understood that this bad man was not so far from what any of us could become, if we made the wrong choices or handled a tough situation badly. That helped me to consider forgiving people in other situations, like the man who was my assistant at a job and got me fired so he could have my job, or the people who stole my car in 2005, or the people who chose not to hire me in 2018 because they were bigoted against senior workers. In each case I suffered from someone's wrongdoing, and in all of the cases it was behavior I was not myself guilty of nor would ever do, but I recognized that I myself was guilty of sins that other people might not ever do, and while I was angry at being hurt by their actions, I learned to separate the sin from the sinner so to speak, although that process takes longer sometimes than others,
Justice is not punishment, it's making things right. That's scary to me, because you can always punish someone but sometimes it's hard to know what you can do to make things right when you screw up.
We all need mercy, and we should all desire yet fear Justice.
Waco1947
JXL said:Waco1947 said:Yes we both end up in heaven. But your imagery is a little mean. Yes, we both end in heaven as do you Lib.LIB,MR BEARS said:I love 47. I also love the guy with the axe handle and the mask. In my deep love for both of these individuals, should I not cry out for justice if the guy in the mask beats 47 to death. Does the guy in the mask automatically end up in heaven with 47 because of Christ love, or the cross, or repentance. Without repentance, is his game of whack-a-mole with 47 just cardio?Waco1947 said:Jesus died on the cross to show how much the Father loved by letting Jesus, God's only begotten Son, die on a cross.. Humans are capable of great evil but God nailed that evil to the cross and set us free to love. But the good news is not effective until the Resurrection; that is, good, new life, and love come out of evil.Oldbear83 said:I wonder why Waco thinks Christ died on the cross, if hell were not a terrible danger to us?JXL said:Waco1947 said:Do you live up to the context Mt 25? It is a call to existential action.Oldbear83 said:
"Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus."
OK then, here are some of Jesus' direct words on the matter of hell:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43
" 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""
Matt. 7:22 makes clear that good works alone are not sufficient to attain eternal life.
However, God does not play transactional games "You do this or believe that, then I will love." God simply loves us.
You said you were not preaching universalism, but that's exactly what this is.
To greatly oversimplify, universalism is the belief that all are saved - often with the rationale that God's love would not permit anyone to remain permanently unsaved.
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/church/what-is-universalism-beliefs-and-connection-to-unitarian-universalist.html
If universalism were correct, then John 3:16 would be robbed of meaning. Why would it say "whosoever believes in Him shall not perish" when it could say "all persons shall not perish"?