Rather than asking questions that have been continually answered, how about you give us your answer pastor itchy ears?Waco1947 said:Eternal separation? What about a God of eternal love; would that God not give us a chance to repent? In a classical theism God is love so is that love terminated at death?JXL said:Waco1947 said:I believe it's all grace - no punishment.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Do you agree that the answer to your question is yes, God does punish?Waco1947 said:and me?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Did Jesus receive punishment for our sins?Waco1947 said:So God does punish?Mothra said:John 3:16-18Waco1947 said:
Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Did God ever punish Israel for their disobedience and unfaithfulness?
Will God not punish Satan and his angels?
But what say you ?
Like I already said, Hell is not "punishment." It is the eternal separation from God that the person chose.
All theological statements are existential
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Waco1947 said:
Eternal separation? What about a God of eternal love; would that God not give us a chance to repent?
God gives most people today 70+ years to repent. If they choose to reject Him, that is on them.
No, God still loves those people that are separated. He loves the Devil. These beings made their choice against Him. God loves them so much, that respects their choice.Waco1947 said:
In a classical theism God is love so is that love terminated at death?
We all make decisions, Waco. Death is not Life, and there is a point where the decision must be made.
Scripture is clear, and you cannot twist God's words to suit your whim.
Scripture is clear, and you cannot twist God's words to suit your whim.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
God knew their choice before they born which would be eternal damnation and God still created them. Why?Coke Bear said:Waco1947 said:
Eternal separation? What about a God of eternal love; would that God not give us a chance to repent?
God gives most people today 70+ years to repent. If they choose to reject Him, that is on them.
No, God still loves those people that are separated. He loves the Devil. These beings made their choice against Him. God loves them so much, that respects their choice.Waco1947 said:
In a classical theism God is love so is that love terminated at death?
Waco1947 said:
God knew their choice before they born which would be eternal damnation and God still created them. Why?
Great question ...
God may choose to create those souls so that a greater good would happen.
For instance, suppose a man was born and became an atheist; however, married a devout Christian woman, and they had 4 kids. One of the boys became a priest that let his flock according to His word, one of the daughters became a doctor that saved many lives, the second son joined the Marines and sacrificed his live to saved 12 other Marines, and the last daughter started a company that build houses for the poor and employed former prisoners to develop their skills after being released from prison.
Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?
"Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?" Definitely for the atheist.Coke Bear said:Waco1947 said:
God knew their choice before they born which would be eternal damnation and God still created them. Why?
Great question ...
God may choose to create those souls so that a greater good would happen.
For instance, suppose a man was born and became an atheist; however, married a devout Christian woman, and they had 4 kids. One of the boys became a priest that let his flock according to His word, one of the daughters became a doctor that saved many lives, the second son joined the Marines and sacrificed his live to saved 12 other Marines, and the last daughter started a company that build houses for the poor and employed former prisoners to develop their skills after being released from prison.
Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?
But what of the greater good?bearhouse said:"Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?" Definitely for the atheist.Coke Bear said:Waco1947 said:
God knew their choice before they born which would be eternal damnation and God still created them. Why?
Great question ...
God may choose to create those souls so that a greater good would happen.
For instance, suppose a man was born and became an atheist; however, married a devout Christian woman, and they had 4 kids. One of the boys became a priest that let his flock according to His word, one of the daughters became a doctor that saved many lives, the second son joined the Marines and sacrificed his live to saved 12 other Marines, and the last daughter started a company that build houses for the poor and employed former prisoners to develop their skills after being released from prison.
Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?
Waco1947 said:God knew their choice before they born which would be eternal damnation and God still created them. Why?Coke Bear said:Waco1947 said:
Eternal separation? What about a God of eternal love; would that God not give us a chance to repent?
God gives most people today 70+ years to repent. If they choose to reject Him, that is on them.
No, God still loves those people that are separated. He loves the Devil. These beings made their choice against Him. God loves them so much, that respects their choice.Waco1947 said:
In a classical theism God is love so is that love terminated at death?
We have had this exact same conversation before. God does not exist in linear time. Each person has free will to choose God or not. God doesn't create people and say well there is Mary Jones, she's going to Hell. The "elect who are predestined," as in Ephesians 1, refers to "the church," not individual people. The church - the body of believers - was predestined to salvation, but you have the choice of whether to be part of it or not.
If you have a child which would did you create to suffer for eternity for the greater good?LIB,MR BEARS said:But what of the greater good?bearhouse said:"Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?" Definitely for the atheist.Coke Bear said:Waco1947 said:
God knew their choice before they born which would be eternal damnation and God still created them. Why?
Great question ...
God may choose to create those souls so that a greater good would happen.
For instance, suppose a man was born and became an atheist; however, married a devout Christian woman, and they had 4 kids. One of the boys became a priest that let his flock according to His word, one of the daughters became a doctor that saved many lives, the second son joined the Marines and sacrificed his live to saved 12 other Marines, and the last daughter started a company that build houses for the poor and employed former prisoners to develop their skills after being released from prison.
Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?
Take Coke Bear's post above. Now make the child that became a priest someone like Billy Graham; wouldn't hundreds of thousands being led to Christ be the greater good vs one not?bearhouse said:If you have a child which would did you create to suffer for eternity for the greater good?LIB,MR BEARS said:But what of the greater good?bearhouse said:"Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?" Definitely for the atheist.Coke Bear said:Waco1947 said:
God knew their choice before they born which would be eternal damnation and God still created them. Why?
Great question ...
God may choose to create those souls so that a greater good would happen.
For instance, suppose a man was born and became an atheist; however, married a devout Christian woman, and they had 4 kids. One of the boys became a priest that let his flock according to His word, one of the daughters became a doctor that saved many lives, the second son joined the Marines and sacrificed his live to saved 12 other Marines, and the last daughter started a company that build houses for the poor and employed former prisoners to develop their skills after being released from prison.
Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?
It's really academic. Ezekiel 18:32 says "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"
John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
and many, many more (not apply, but most do)
https://dailyverses.net/search/Whoever/niv/kjv
The idea of greater good has supported all kinds of evil in this world and is directly in line with the spirit of Caiaphis. I would take this position with extreme trepidation and profound humility. It is, after all, the underlying spirit that led to Jesus's death sentence.
Perhaps you too would shout "crucify" and "free Barabbas" as it would have supported Isreal's "greater good."
Edited to say: I mean no disrespect to you. We are on the same team. But the fact is, we have imperfect knowledge and therefore make imperfect choices. I think God knows this about us. Thus, our imperfect choices do not condemn us.
Perhaps you too would shout "crucify" and "free Barabbas" as it would have supported Isreal's "greater good."
Edited to say: I mean no disrespect to you. We are on the same team. But the fact is, we have imperfect knowledge and therefore make imperfect choices. I think God knows this about us. Thus, our imperfect choices do not condemn us.
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
I agree with you. However, I do think hell is metaphysically true. When we live with great fear, or great lovelessness, or with great selfishness...there is a kind of "hell" that we experience. We aren't literally going to live eternally in the Valley of Hinnom. :-)NeuroticBear said:
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
People want the Bible to be literal...until they don't.
Jesus spoke of it. Did He lie?NeuroticBear said:
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
Good luck with that plan.NeuroticBear said:
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
No. But it is possible we have misunderstood him.LIB,MR BEARS said:Jesus spoke of it. Did He lie?NeuroticBear said:
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
Nope.bearhouse said:No. But it is possible we have misunderstood him.LIB,MR BEARS said:Jesus spoke of it. Did He lie?NeuroticBear said:
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
Jesus' statements are internally consistent and send a clear, unambiguous message.
Also, consider Christ's willingness to die on the cross for us. Such a terrible torment would only be accepted if the alternative was much worse. Christ literally died a horrible death in excruciating pain because if he did not we would suffer even worse pain eternally.
Please do not trivialize the suffering of Jesus Christ or discount his courage.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
What led you to this conclusion?NeuroticBear said:
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
that means it is also possible we haven'tbearhouse said:No. But it is possible we have misunderstood him.LIB,MR BEARS said:Jesus spoke of it. Did He lie?NeuroticBear said:
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
Good question. The atheist does not come out of this scenario very well. God created him knowing he would die into eternal punishment.Coke Bear said:Waco1947 said:
God knew their choice before they born which would be eternal damnation and God still created them. Why?
Great question ...
God may choose to create those souls so that a greater good would happen.
For instance, suppose a man was born and became an atheist; however, married a devout Christian woman, and they had 4 kids. One of the boys became a priest that let his flock according to His word, one of the daughters became a doctor that saved many lives, the second son joined the Marines and sacrificed his live to saved 12 other Marines, and the last daughter started a company that build houses for the poor and employed former prisoners to develop their skills after being released from prison.
Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?
A second draw back maybe he raises four atheists all doomed to hell from the start of their lives and your all knowing God knows.
Another good question. I hope he answers it.Coke Bear said:What led you to this conclusion?NeuroticBear said:
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
Making the child a priest does not get at the claim of bearhouse."If you have a child which would did you create to suffer for eternity for the greater good?" He did not ask about priest but about your child.LIB,MR BEARS said:Take Coke Bear's post above. Now make the child that became a priest someone like Billy Graham; wouldn't hundreds of thousands being led to Christ be the greater good vs one not?bearhouse said:If you have a child which would did you create to suffer for eternity for the greater good?LIB,MR BEARS said:But what of the greater good?bearhouse said:"Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?" Definitely for the atheist.Coke Bear said:Waco1947 said:
God knew their choice before they born which would be eternal damnation and God still created them. Why?
Great question ...
God may choose to create those souls so that a greater good would happen.
For instance, suppose a man was born and became an atheist; however, married a devout Christian woman, and they had 4 kids. One of the boys became a priest that let his flock according to His word, one of the daughters became a doctor that saved many lives, the second son joined the Marines and sacrificed his live to saved 12 other Marines, and the last daughter started a company that build houses for the poor and employed former prisoners to develop their skills after being released from prison.
Would it be better off if that atheist was never born?
It's really academic. Ezekiel 18:32 says "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"
John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
and many, many more (not apply, but most do)
https://dailyverses.net/search/Whoever/niv/kjv
"If you have a child which would did you create to suffer for eternity for the greater good?: Lib, Mr Bear
Good question.
Good question.
Premise 1 God is all the love of this universeWaco1947 said:
"If you have a child which would did you create to suffer for eternity for the greater good?: Lib, Mr Bear
Good question. Here's my answer
Premise 2 Humankind participates in the love through great commandment - loving God, self, and others. loving self and other is participating in God's love; hence we are part of God's love.
Premise 3 God reigns in grace in life and in death.
Premise 4 Humans are imperfect creatures and do evil things but that evil is another power in our oives. Evil opposes God's will for love.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves. We live in love and evil but the greater power is love. God's love never dissipates but rather is continual in love, in life and in death. I will die into the arms of love as will all humans.
Because God is all the love in this universe and in transcendent world.
The next question will be 'why be good if all sin is forgiven?'
Why are you good -- to avoid hell?.
Why are you good -- to avoid hell?.
He made his choice during his live. God honored that choice. As it was stated earlier, God is in the eternal now. He is outside of time. God didn't create the atheist to reject Him. He gave him free will to make a choice.Waco1947 said:
Good question. The atheist does not come out of this scenario very well. God created him knowing he would die into eternal punishment.
My original scenario was about the greater good. God's permissive will allows for the greater good.Waco1947 said:
A second draw back maybe he raises four atheists all doomed to hell from the start of their lives and your all knowing God knows.
Not every creation of God is for the greater good and those creations are headed to hell and God knows it.Coke Bear said:He made his choice during his live. God honored that choice. As it was stated earlier, God is in the eternal now. He is outside of time. God didn't create the atheist to reject Him. He gave him free will to make a choice.Waco1947 said:
Good question. The atheist does not come out of this scenario very well. God created him knowing he would die into eternal punishment.My original scenario was about the greater good. God's permissive will allows for the greater good.Waco1947 said:
A second draw back maybe he raises four atheists all doomed to hell from the start of their lives and your all knowing God knows.
Waco1947 said:Not every creation of God is for the greater good and those creations are headed to hell and God knows it.Coke Bear said:He made his choice during his live. God honored that choice. As it was stated earlier, God is in the eternal now. He is outside of time. God didn't create the atheist to reject Him. He gave him free will to make a choice.Waco1947 said:
Good question. The atheist does not come out of this scenario very well. God created him knowing he would die into eternal punishment.My original scenario was about the greater good. God's permissive will allows for the greater good.Waco1947 said:
A second draw back maybe he raises four atheists all doomed to hell from the start of their lives and your all knowing God knows.
It's impossible for us to say (or comprehend) what God knows. The statement that they are "headed for hell" is a function of linear time which is not binding on God. The atheist mentioned above had the opportunity to choose or reject God through his own free will - God is not willing that any should perish, but He will honor the atheist's choice.
"It's impossible for us to say (or comprehend) what God knows. The statement that they are "headed for hell" is a function of linear time which is not binding on God. The atheist mentioned above had the opportunity to choose or reject God through his own free will - God is not willing that any should perish, but He will honor the atheist's choice." JXL
God creates a child who God knows is going to die of SIDS at 12 months and the parents will be plunged into grief and unbearable pain. Why would God punish the parents with that pain that God KNEW God was creating?
God creates a child who God knows is going to die of SIDS at 12 months and the parents will be plunged into grief and unbearable pain. Why would God punish the parents with that pain that God KNEW God was creating?
As long as you only worship the idol you make with your mind, and ignore the God of Scripture, you will neither understand nor be able to accept Christ, Waco.Waco1947 said:
"It's impossible for us to say (or comprehend) what God knows. The statement that they are "headed for hell" is a function of linear time which is not binding on God. The atheist mentioned above had the opportunity to choose or reject God through his own free will - God is not willing that any should perish, but He will honor the atheist's choice." JXL
God creates a child who God knows is going to die of SIDS at 12 months and the parents will be plunged into grief and unbearable pain. Why would God punish the parents with that pain that God KNEW God was creating?
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Waco1947 said:
God creates a child who God knows is going to die of SIDS at 12 months and the parents will be plunged into grief and unbearable pain. Why would God punish the parents with that pain that God KNEW God was creating?
You and I will never know this answer on this side of the veil. I have to trust God and believe that this happened for a reason. I realize that this does not comfort those parents or you.
I won't pretend to understand what they or you went thru. I can't. If I lost my wife or one of my children, I'm not sure what I would do. I'd most likely check out from society for a while. I have to believe that I wouldn't check out on God.
I do know God doesn't owe my anything. Everyday is a gift. If it's over tomorrow, it's over. This life is just a test. I pray that my reward is Heaven.
By God's grace and mercy, that 12-month old is Heaven with God. Would you agree that the 12-month old is better in Heaven than on earth? God gave those parents 12 wonderful months with that child. Now he gets an eternity with Him.
I am truly sorry for your and their loss.
"unbearable" pain, like Job?Waco1947 said:
"It's impossible for us to say (or comprehend) what God knows. The statement that they are "headed for hell" is a function of linear time which is not binding on God. The atheist mentioned above had the opportunity to choose or reject God through his own free will - God is not willing that any should perish, but He will honor the atheist's choice." JXL
God creates a child who God knows is going to die of SIDS at 12 months and the parents will be plunged into grief and unbearable pain. Why would God punish the parents with that pain that God KNEW God was creating?
Coke Bear - This is a loving response and affirms or acts out Waco's Premise #2. It is God within us, working through us, bringing all, as best we can, the peace and love of God to each other. In my mind, this is how we enter salvation and heaven together...by loving each other and exploring together what love is (and is not). Or another way of putting this...what God is. Premise #1
Nope.Oldbear83 said:Nope.bearhouse said:No. But it is possible we have misunderstood him.LIB,MR BEARS said:Jesus spoke of it. Did He lie?NeuroticBear said:
Hell is a fiction.
Unless someone can explain and reconcile the actual words used…hades, gehenna, and tartarus…then the concept of hell is nothing more than a control mechanism created by the clergy who feared the widespread dissemination of the written word to the unwashed masses.
Jesus' statements are internally consistent and send a clear, unambiguous message.
Also, consider Christ's willingness to die on the cross for us. Such a terrible torment would only be accepted if the alternative was much worse. Christ literally died a horrible death in excruciating pain because if he did not we would suffer even worse pain eternally.
Please do not trivialize the suffering of Jesus Christ or discount his courage.
Jesus himself said in Matthew !3:11-13 that his teaching is ambiguous and purposely so. Don't believe me but at least believe the direct words of Jesus. And even the apostles were often confused (its in the Bible).
Furthermore, the Psalms states it is to the glory of God to conceal things, and to the glory of kings to search them out.
God gave us a desire to search for Him and know Him. He created a wonderful mystery. However, our understanding is limited. While I respect your perspective as a fellow person of faith, don't be too quick to assume I am discrediting the cross. Just because you accuse me of that, does not make it true.
Waco1947 said:
"It's impossible for us to say (or comprehend) what God knows. The statement that they are "headed for hell" is a function of linear time which is not binding on God. The atheist mentioned above had the opportunity to choose or reject God through his own free will - God is not willing that any should perish, but He will honor the atheist's choice." JXL
God creates a child who God knows is going to die of SIDS at 12 months and the parents will be plunged into grief and unbearable pain. Why would God punish the parents with that pain that God KNEW God was creating?
Did God guarantee everyone a worry-free, stress-free, pain-free life? I must have missed that part in the Bible.