Big12Fan2024 said:

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blackie said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Killing Floor said:

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In all fairness to Finn, though, absolutely nobody on earth ever said he was that good. Except Aranda. Was a quick and poorly planned portal grab to show Mack and donors that we use the portal now. Simple as that.

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Finn was the 11th-ranked portal QB according to 247, ahead of some pretty accomplished guys. I don't think anyone expected him to be an incompetent passer.

Hopefully, he'll turn things around starting next week. If not, we need to be prepared to make a move at that position in the next two weeks. We can't go more than a game into Big 12 play with the offense performing at this level without a change.

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He looked panicked to me on the occasions most here are talking about. That may diminish with more experience against top teams......or not. But the basic problem gets back to the OL. They can't open holes for the runners and can't protect the QB even when they outnumber the defenders rushing..

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The advanced game stats show Finn was pressured on only 8 of 26 dropbacks, but go ahead and move forward with the narrative that the OL was the main problem for him if it makes you feel better.

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Finn is one of those quarterbacks that scrambles around in the backfield when there isn't any pressure. He did it against Texas State, and we were told that it was part of the game plan. He did it all the time in his YouTube "highlight" reel as well. That style MIGHT work if you have a Mike Evans that you can chunk it up to and the quarterback has some degree of accuracy, but we don't, and he doesn't

Big12Fan2024 said:

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blackie said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Killing Floor said:

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In all fairness to Finn, though, absolutely nobody on earth ever said he was that good. Except Aranda. Was a quick and poorly planned portal grab to show Mack and donors that we use the portal now. Simple as that.

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Finn was the 11th-ranked portal QB according to 247, ahead of some pretty accomplished guys. I don't think anyone expected him to be an incompetent passer.

Hopefully, he'll turn things around starting next week. If not, we need to be prepared to make a move at that position in the next two weeks. We can't go more than a game into Big 12 play with the offense performing at this level without a change.

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He looked panicked to me on the occasions most here are talking about. That may diminish with more experience against top teams......or not. But the basic problem gets back to the OL. They can't open holes for the runners and can't protect the QB even when they outnumber the defenders rushing..

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The advanced game stats show Finn was pressured on only 8 of 26 dropbacks, but go ahead and move forward with the narrative that the OL was the main problem for him if it makes you feel better.

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You read the post completely wrong. The guy looked panicked regardless of rushed or not. And the OL is a problem whether you are talking about Finn, Pendergrass or Reese. We are not going to be better on offense until we get much better up front, regardless of who we have at QB. The OL cost us 14 points. The feeble attempt to block the rusher that caused the fumble and the line not being able to defend a FG is all you have to look at.

A $750k QB who faced The Ohio State defense should have not looked like a deer in the headlights yesterday. Tired of hearing how bad the OL is - coaches figure out the scheme to compensate for that but it doesn't explain why the guy can't hit the broadside of the barn.

Either he's hurt, doesn't understand the playbook, can't throw what is he's being asked to throw or the plays are still *****

I wish I was young enough that I couldn't remember QBs at Baylor that were worse, but unfortunately, I'm not. I remember a string of nameless QBs from the past, starting with the Bill Beale era. Not saying Finn's performance wasn't bad. Certainly not, but the opposite, it was. But leave it to people here to take exaggeration to a next level.

blackie said:

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I wish I was young enough that I couldn't remember QBs at Baylor that were worse, but unfortunately, I'm not. I remember a string of nameless QBs from the past, starting with the Bill Beale era. Not saying Finn's performance wasn't bad. Certainly not, but the opposite, it was. But leave it to people here to take exaggeration to a next level.

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Well in recent times, I would say every QB between Jeff Watson (1997) up until RGIII (2008).

Edit here. I should say with the exception of Bell. I'm also not picking on those QBs if they read this board. It was really hard to succeed here during the dark times as an individual player.

I would also add we only have a sample of 2 games for Finn so this topic rather knee jerkingly stupid. By the end of the season he may be a more successful QB than Watson and Bell for us.

Notre Dame fans calling for Leonard to get benched but they gave him $2million and feel obliged to keep him out there.

Let's see if Finn can show improvement against Air Force. If bad first half then start giving Sawyer some reps. If Sawyer looks like he moves the ball better then roll with him. Use Finn in some wildcat packages where he can run and maybe get a chunk play throwing to a tight end or back on a wheel route.

I don't understand the lack of designed QB runs. One thing everyone can agree on is Finn is very fast when gets into the open field.

Finn had a QBR of 12.3 (on a scale of 1-100) and finished 105th among D1 QBs this week (statistically)...ouch.

FOR ALL YOU ANTI - BLAKE SHAPPEN FANS,

HIS QB RATING IS 192.. QUIN EWERS IS 165..

IMPRESSIVE MOST IMPRESSIVE, BUT HE IS STILL NOT A JEDI YET ?

blackie said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Killing Floor said:

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In all fairness to Finn, though, absolutely nobody on earth ever said he was that good. Except Aranda. Was a quick and poorly planned portal grab to show Mack and donors that we use the portal now. Simple as that.

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Finn was the 11th-ranked portal QB according to 247, ahead of some pretty accomplished guys. I don't think anyone expected him to be an incompetent passer.

Hopefully, he'll turn things around starting next week. If not, we need to be prepared to make a move at that position in the next two weeks. We can't go more than a game into Big 12 play with the offense performing at this level without a change.

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He looked panicked to me on the occasions most here are talking about. That may diminish with more experience against top teams......or not. But the basic problem gets back to the OL. They can't open holes for the runners and can't protect the QB even when they outnumber the defenders rushing..

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Agree completely. He looked like a freshman in his first difficult road environment at Utah.

But I think it's at least somewhat important to remember that that, frankly, was his first difficult road environment where he had any sort of pressure whatsoever to succeed.

He played at Ohio State while at Toledo, but no one expected his team to even compete in that game, much less win. And around the few games like that that he played against P5 competition, he was playing in front of 12,000-25,000 fans in MAC stadiums.

I'm willing to have some grace for that reason and hope that Saturday's performance was a case of him putting way too much pressure on himself and playing way too fast as a result. If he's truly as inaccurate as he's been the last two weeks, he'll never succeed in the Big 12. But many of the throws he's missed badly have looked panicked and rushed.

Like most others, I want to see Sawyer Robertson get some meaningful snaps over the next two weeks. But I'm willing to give Finn those two games to prove what he really is as a QB. If looks against Air Force and Colorado the same way he looked in the second half against Tarleton State and throughout the entire Utah game, it's time to move on.

I'm sincerely hoping he proves us all wrong and plays at the level that earned him a conference player of the year award and the No. 11 portal QB ranking. But the leash can only be so long. He's got to show something sooner than later or we need to give Robertson an opportunity to lead the offense.

johnnychimpo said:

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Don't look now but Shapen has a 80.5 total average QBR good for 25th on a historically uninspiring offense post-Dak Prescott.

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Blake Shapen will likely be quarterbacking a 2-5 team five weeks from now. But go off.

boykin_spaniel said:

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Notre Dame fans calling for Leonard to get benched but they gave him $2million and feel obliged to keep him out there.

Let's see if Finn can show improvement against Air Force. If bad first half then start giving Sawyer some reps. If Sawyer looks like he moves the ball better then roll with him. Use Finn in some wildcat packages where he can run and maybe get a chunk play throwing to a tight end or back on a wheel route.

I don't understand the lack of designed QB runs. One thing everyone can agree on is Finn is very fast when gets into the open field.

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I honestly wouldn't mind seeing alternating series between Finn and Robertson this week. I know a lot of people hate two-quarterback systems, but I want to see what both players can do the next two weeks, so we can put our best foot forward offensively from the Colorado game on.

In Week 1, we didn't show anything. In Week 2, we couldn't run basic parts of our offense effectively because of our inability to block and Finn's inability to hit open receivers.

The next two weeks, we should see the Spavital offense in all its glory. Air Force will be sound defensively, but they don't have much talent. And Colorado is a bad, unsound defense. If Finn still can't operate the offense effectively in those games, we've got to give the keys to someone who can.

PartyBear said:

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blackie said:

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I wish I was young enough that I couldn't remember QBs at Baylor that were worse, but unfortunately, I'm not. I remember a string of nameless QBs from the past, starting with the Bill Beale era. Not saying Finn's performance wasn't bad. Certainly not, but the opposite, it was. But leave it to people here to take exaggeration to a next level.

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Well in recent times, I would say every QB between Jeff Watson (1997) up until RGIII (2008).

Edit here. I should say with the exception of Bell. I'm also not picking on those QBs if they read this board. It was really hard to succeed here during the dark times as an individual player.

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Watson was better than Bell.

Guitarbiscuit said:

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PartyBear said:

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blackie said:

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I wish I was young enough that I couldn't remember QBs at Baylor that were worse, but unfortunately, I'm not. I remember a string of nameless QBs from the past, starting with the Bill Beale era. Not saying Finn's performance wasn't bad. Certainly not, but the opposite, it was. But leave it to people here to take exaggeration to a next level.

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Well in recent times, I would say every QB between Jeff Watson (1997) up until RGIII (2008).

Edit here. I should say with the exception of Bell. I'm also not picking on those QBs if they read this board. It was really hard to succeed here during the dark times as an individual player.

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Watson was better than Bell.

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By what metric? Watson had more talent around him and was never more than mediocre veer QB.

He finished his career with a 53 percent completion percentage, a 116.5 QB rating and a 30-to-27 touchdown-to-interception ratio.

Steve Needham is holding on line 2.

I think we should do the rotating QB thing atm. See who has the hot hand and/or can make a play. It's not like we have a rhythm anyway.

Seth Russell was very good, barring injuries he would have been one of the best...

I've always hated rotating qbs.

Robert Wilson said:

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I think we should do the rotating QB thing atm. See who has the hot hand and/or can make a play. It's not like we have a rhythm anyway.

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Guitarbiscuit said:

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I've always hated rotating qbs.

Robert Wilson said:

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I think we should do the rotating QB thing atm. See who has the hot hand and/or can make a play. It's not like we have a rhythm anyway.

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Most fans do. But it's the only way to fairly judge two players in the exact same environment.

If you want to remove all other variables and get an objective view of who your best choice is, play both against the exact same defense(s) and make a more informed decision off those results.

Guitarbiscuit said:

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I've always hated rotating qbs.

Robert Wilson said:

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I think we should do the rotating QB thing atm. See who has the hot hand and/or can make a play. It's not like we have a rhythm anyway.

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"If you have 2 QBs, you don't have a QB." However...

Robert Wilson said:

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Guitarbiscuit said:

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I've always hated rotating qbs.

Robert Wilson said:

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I think we should do the rotating QB thing atm. See who has the hot hand and/or can make a play. It's not like we have a rhythm anyway.

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"If you have 2 QBs, you don't have a QB." However...

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Playing two QBs is often the best way to find the right one. If Mack Brown agreed with this philosophy, Vince Young would have sat his entire freshman season behind Chance Mock. Same with Urban Meyer and Tim Tebow.

Bingo. I've yet to see a team who plays 2 QBS be successful. Look no further than SMU last Friday.
Give Sawyer a start Saturday and see how he does. If he looks like frap will no for sure we have no QBs

I'd be willing to tolerate it for about 15 minutes, which should provide ample time to show that Robertson, while not Heisman material, needs to start.

think we should do the rotating QB thing atm. See who has the hot hand and/or can make a play. It's not like we Most fans do. But it's the only way to fairly judge two players in the exact same environment.

If you want to remove all other variables and get an objective view of who your best choice is, play both against the exact same defense(s) and make a more informed decision off those

bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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Guitarbiscuit said:

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I've always hated rotating qbs.

Robert Wilson said:

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I think we should do the rotating QB thing atm. See who has the hot hand and/or can make a play. It's not like we have a rhythm anyway.

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"If you have 2 QBs, you don't have a QB." However...

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Playing two QBs is often the best way to find the right one. If Mack Brown agreed with this philosophy, Vince Young would have sat his entire freshman season behind Chance Mock. Same with Urban Meyer and Tim Tebow.

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Agree. I think that's just where we are. Keep giving them both shots and see which one sticks.

IowaBear said:

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Bingo. I've yet to see a team who plays 2 QBS be successful. Look no further than SMU last Friday.
Give Sawyer a start Saturday and see how he does. If he looks like frap will no for sure we have no QBs

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Texas went 10-2 in 2003 (10-1 in the regular season) playing a legit two-quarterback system. And Florida won a national title using Tebow as a red zone package guy.

Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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Guitarbiscuit said:

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I've always hated rotating qbs.

Robert Wilson said:

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I think we should do the rotating QB thing atm. See who has the hot hand and/or can make a play. It's not like we have a rhythm anyway.

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"If you have 2 QBs, you don't have a QB." However...

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Playing two QBs is often the best way to find the right one. If Mack Brown agreed with this philosophy, Vince Young would have sat his entire freshman season behind Chance Mock. Same with Urban Meyer and Tim Tebow.

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Agree. I think that's just where we are. Keep giving them both shots and see which one sticks.

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Exaclty, I'm not suggesting that be a permanent arrangement. I'm suggesting giving both a legitimate chance to earn and run with the job.

Neither has done enough to date to be the undisputed starter. Give them both chances the next two games and roll with whoever performs the best.

Glad we're bringing up examples over 2 decades old. That's absolutely an outlier and not the norm.
Playing 2 QBs is dumb. Figure out which one is truly better and play that one.
If Finn is truly the better one we're in for a long ass season.

UT also had Cedric Benson. They probably could have rotated the entire Muppets cast at qb and gotten to 9 wins.


quote=bear2be2]

IowaBear said:

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Bingo. I've yet to see a team who plays 2 QBS be successful. Look no further than SMU last Friday.
Give Sawyer a start Saturday and see how he does. If he looks like frap will no for sure we have no QBs

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Texas went 10-2 in 2003 (10-1 in the regular season) playing a legit two-quarterback system. And Florida won a national title using Tebow as a red zone package guy.

IowaBear said:

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Glad we're bringing up examples over 2 decades old. That's absolutely an outlier and not the norm.
Playing 2 QBs is dumb. Figure out which one is truly better and play that one.
If Finn is truly the better one we're in for a long ass season.

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Sometimes you have to play both QBs live for a while to see which one is better (or less bad). I think that's where we are.

IowaBear said:

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Glad we're bringing up examples over 2 decades old. That's absolutely an outlier and not the norm.
Playing 2 QBs is dumb. Figure out which one is truly better and play that one.
If Finn is truly the better one we're in for a long ass season.

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There aren't enough examples to even judge because most coaches have bought into the lie that it can't work.

But if there's one thing football coaches have completely lost the benefit of the doubt on, it's quarterback decisions. Teams choose, start and stick with the wrong guy all the freaking time.

We even saw it with Art Briles, when he started Kirby Freeman over Robert Griffin -- after splitting snaps between Blake Joseph and Case Keenum the year before.

But Briles' two-quarterback system in 2007 allowed Sumlin to make a more informed decision in 2008 and the rest is history.

I'm still convinced that Aranda may have made promises to Finn that he's not going to be able to keep.

bear2be2 said:

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IowaBear said:

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Glad we're bringing up examples over 2 decades old. That's absolutely an outlier and not the norm.
Playing 2 QBs is dumb. Figure out which one is truly better and play that one.
If Finn is truly the better one we're in for a long ass season.

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There aren't enough examples to even judge because most coaches have bought into the lie that it can't work.

But if there's one thing football coaches have completely lost the benefit of the doubt on, it's quarterback decisions. Teams choose and start the wrong guy all the freaking time.

We even saw it with Art Briles, when he started Kirby Freeman over Robert Griffin -- after giving Blake Joseph snaps over Case Keenum the year before.

But Briles' two-quarterback system in 2007 allowed Sumlin to make a more informed decision in 2008 and the rest is history.

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Teaff did it successfully with two good QBs with different styles (Muecke and Carlson).

The 2 main examples you gave were in reference to ELITE teams. Playing 2 QBs doesn't work for teams in Baylor's situation. If we're talking specific package situations like the Belldozer sure. But we're not. The idea of rotating them was brought up and that's a horrible idea.
Let Sawyer start and finish the AF game. If he sucks as bad as Finn (hard to do) go back to Finn so he can play the role of glorified RB

IowaBear said:

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The 2 main examples you gave were in reference to ELITE teams. Playing 2 QBs doesn't work for teams in Baylor's situation. If we're talking specific package situations like the Belldozer sure. But we're not. The idea of rotating them was brought up and that's a horrible idea.
Let Sawyer start and finish the AF game. If he sucks as bad as Finn (hard to do) go back to Finn so he can play the role of glorified RB

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I just mentioned Houston in 2007, which did it under Briles. That program wasn't elite and had enough success that year to earn Art Briles a Big 12 job.

IowaBear said:

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The 2 main examples you gave were in reference to ELITE teams. Playing 2 QBs doesn't work for teams in Baylor's situation. If we're talking specific package situations like the Belldozer sure. But we're not. The idea of rotating them was brought up and that's a horrible idea.
Let Sawyer start and finish the AF game. If he sucks as bad as Finn (hard to do) go back to Finn so he can play the role of glorified RB

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Starting and only playing Sawyer against Air Force will tell us more about Air Force's defense than it will about which of our quarterbacks is the best suited to lead us moving forward.

If you really want to compare two quarterbacks, the only objective way is to play both against the same defense in the same environment. Give both meaningful snaps until you have enough data to make an informed decision.

bear2be2 said:

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IowaBear said:

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The 2 main examples you gave were in reference to ELITE teams. Playing 2 QBs doesn't work for teams in Baylor's situation. If we're talking specific package situations like the Belldozer sure. But we're not. The idea of rotating them was brought up and that's a horrible idea.
Let Sawyer start and finish the AF game. If he sucks as bad as Finn (hard to do) go back to Finn so he can play the role of glorified RB

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Starting and only playing Sawyer against Air Force will tell us more about Air Force's defense than it will about which of our quarterbacks is the best suited to lead us moving forward.

If you really want to compare two quarterbacks, the only objective way is to play both against the same defense in the same environment. Give both meaningful snaps until you have enough data to make an informed decision.

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I agree. You need to put them in comparable situations, which means both playing substantially in the same game.