Johnny Bear said:

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bularry said:

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Johnny Bear said:

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bularry said:

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Johnny Bear said:

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PartyBear said:

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A couple of points. Starr's not doing what he was supposed to in terms of Title IX is why we had the mess in the first place with football and all the lawsuits. In short we never will know but Starr could very well have cost Baylor at least one national title run in football this decade.

Secondly what saved the Big XII 9 years ago was Texas deciding it was more profitable to stay in the Big XII. It had nothing to do with Starr. Just to show how irrelevant Starr was to that, several schools left the Big XII despite Starr's moves. His legal threats were irrelevant.

In short I'm not fond of Starr. He was ultimately a disaster for the school.

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Wrong.

At a minimum, Starr's wise decision to not sign away BU's right to sue when A&M jumped to the SEC (that multiple other B12 schools in a similar situation with us were inexplicably willing to do) slowed the whole implosion that was about to happen down enough for the conference to get its act together and come up with the proper plan and incentive to keep UT and OU on board and ultimately save the B12 at that point in time. I shudder to think what might have happened if Livingstone had been our President at that time. His legal mind was far from "irrelevant" at that time and we benefitted accordingly.

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I don't think this is true


Empty lawsuit threats didn't do anything

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It wasn't a "lawsuit threat". It was a refusal to waive our legal rights simply because it appeared to be the PC thing to do. Stop reading Texags.

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Don't be an ass. Just because you want it to be true doesn't make it true. We, BU, didn't do anything that furthered the Big12 by "refusing rights" than I did by farting.

But if it makes you feel good, keep believing a fantasy

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Like I said, stop reading Texags.

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Johnny Bear said:

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PartyBear said:

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Did he raise that much money? Money was pouring in because his presidency coincided with a football program he inherited that was raking in money and donations, which as I mentioned his legacy is the burning down of the rain maker.

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The "rain maker" got burned down not because of Starr, but because of a largely manufactured "scandal" that could've been handled vastly different by a BOR that immediately bent over and grabbed its ankles. There were all kinds of ways to deal with that situation that didn't involve burning the program to the ground and killing the goose that laid the golden egg (note how differently Tennessee, Florida State and especially Michigan State handled similar if not even worse "scandals" and none of them involved nuking their programs or anything remotely close to that). I'll give you that Starr could've done a better job with dealing with the overly expanded Title IX obligations, but I completely understand and agree with his position that everything related to that issue had become ridiculous as far as colleges being expected to be a virtual judge, jury and executioner for issues that should be dealt with exclusively through the criminal and civil justice systems (thank you President Obummer!). In any event, laying all of that or even most of it at Starr's feet is way off base.

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EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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Johnny Bear said:

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PartyBear said:

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Did he raise that much money? Money was pouring in because his presidency coincided with a football program he inherited that was raking in money and donations, which as I mentioned his legacy is the burning down of the rain maker.

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The "rain maker" got burned down not because of Starr, but because of a largely manufactured "scandal" that could've been handled vastly different by a BOR that immediately bent over and grabbed its ankles. There were all kinds of ways to deal with that situation that didn't involve burning the program to the ground and killing the goose that laid the golden egg (note how differently Tennessee, Florida State and especially Michigan State handled similar if not even worse "scandals" and none of them involved nuking their programs or anything remotely close to that). I'll give you that Starr could've done a better job with dealing with the overly expanded Title IX obligations, but I completely understand and agree with his position that everything related to that issue had become ridiculous as far as colleges being expected to be a virtual judge, jury and executioner for issues that should be dealt with exclusively through the criminal and civil justice systems (thank you President Obummer!). In any event, laying all of that or even most of it at Starr's feet is way off base.

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I get it now. Johnny is not happy with the gender of our current president. Makes sense.

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beerman said:

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Didn't Starr recommend the hiring of Pepper Hamilton? Ultimately, that decision alone, if true, might be the single worst decision ever made by a modern-day college president (both financially and for the university's credibility).

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Robert Wilson said:

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beerman said:

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Didn't Starr recommend the hiring of Pepper Hamilton? Ultimately, that decision alone, if true, might be the single worst decision ever made by a modern-day college president (both financially and for the university's credibility).

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Agree. They should've hired a defense firm. Hiring PH to run an expose to our naive and panicky BOR was a horrendous idea.

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beerman said:

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Didn't Starr recommend the hiring of Pepper Hamilton? Ultimately, that decision alone, if true, might be the single worst decision ever made by a modern-day college president (both financially and for the university's credibility).

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Keyser Soze said:

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Malbec said:

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PartyBear said:

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Malbec said:

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PartyBear said:

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I think people here know my position about the BOR. But Starr had a large role. Other presidents of major universities managed to implement the system. Starr should have as well. Having a law degree and being a former federal judge makes his direlection even more unconscionable.

As to stars I rarely star anyone. I sure as hell don't star myself. Is there not a way to see who makes stars?

---

That's a fallacy. Very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor "scandal." In fact, it was very difficult for institutions to even find administrators to lead these departments because there simply were hardly any with experience since the guidance didn't exist before 2011 and the number of institutions that had implemented full-time staff was miniscule. Universities were building these departments "on the fly" with people who had to try and understand the guidance as they built.

---

It is not a fallacy. Your second sentence states very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor scandal. Perhaps true. Starr however did not even make an attempt to implement anything. His dereliction was unconscionable, even if he did not have a law degree and was not a former federal judge.

---

I understand that you are a Clintonista, but you are just wrong. Even Keyser will tell you so. Baylor did have some level of T9 protocol in place, even if they still operated it under 1950s puritanical standards. The problem was that Baylor was just like the vast majority of colleges in America, but when the breeze met the excrement, it was Baylor that was soaking in the media hot tub. There were literally more than 100 universities under federal investigation for T9 irregularities at the time it all broke loose on Baylor, and BU was not one of those. Even if you believe that Starr had some philosophical legal differences with the OCR guidance (as many did and still do), he did no less than most every other university president in the nation, including those at state institutions with more at stake in the federal funding lottery.

While it may be true that it took a media firestorm of epic proportions for Baylor to step up its game in this part of T9 direction, they had not completely ignored it before, and were on par with the vast majority of institutions in the country. So, if you want to say that Starr was not a pacesetter when it came to toeing the line of the recent OCR guidance, that would be a fair statement. However, to suggest that somehow he was a "derelict" administrator when compared to just about every other college president and chancellor in the nation is just nonsense. It's just more piling on by those who simply never liked the guy.

---

Agree. Yes Baylor was behind on T9, but they certainly looked more like than dislike other Universities.

Prior to Pepper, they had other audits and recommendations. The result was the hiring of Patti Crawford as Baylor's first full time T9 coordinator in Nov 2014 (previously the job was handled by Judicial Affairs). Crawford's staff was undersized and I think she was overwhelmed by the job - but all that was a learn as go basis.

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DustyM said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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Malbec said:

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PartyBear said:

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Malbec said:

---

PartyBear said:

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I think people here know my position about the BOR. But Starr had a large role. Other presidents of major universities managed to implement the system. Starr should have as well. Having a law degree and being a former federal judge makes his direlection even more unconscionable.

As to stars I rarely star anyone. I sure as hell don't star myself. Is there not a way to see who makes stars?

---

That's a fallacy. Very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor "scandal." In fact, it was very difficult for institutions to even find administrators to lead these departments because there simply were hardly any with experience since the guidance didn't exist before 2011 and the number of institutions that had implemented full-time staff was miniscule. Universities were building these departments "on the fly" with people who had to try and understand the guidance as they built.

---

It is not a fallacy. Your second sentence states very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor scandal. Perhaps true. Starr however did not even make an attempt to implement anything. His dereliction was unconscionable, even if he did not have a law degree and was not a former federal judge.

---

I understand that you are a Clintonista, but you are just wrong. Even Keyser will tell you so. Baylor did have some level of T9 protocol in place, even if they still operated it under 1950s puritanical standards. The problem was that Baylor was just like the vast majority of colleges in America, but when the breeze met the excrement, it was Baylor that was soaking in the media hot tub. There were literally more than 100 universities under federal investigation for T9 irregularities at the time it all broke loose on Baylor, and BU was not one of those. Even if you believe that Starr had some philosophical legal differences with the OCR guidance (as many did and still do), he did no less than most every other university president in the nation, including those at state institutions with more at stake in the federal funding lottery.

While it may be true that it took a media firestorm of epic proportions for Baylor to step up its game in this part of T9 direction, they had not completely ignored it before, and were on par with the vast majority of institutions in the country. So, if you want to say that Starr was not a pacesetter when it came to toeing the line of the recent OCR guidance, that would be a fair statement. However, to suggest that somehow he was a "derelict" administrator when compared to just about every other college president and chancellor in the nation is just nonsense. It's just more piling on by those who simply never liked the guy.

---

Agree. Yes Baylor was behind on T9, but they certainly looked more like than dislike other Universities.

Prior to Pepper, they had other audits and recommendations. The result was the hiring of Patti Crawford as Baylor's first full time T9 coordinator in Nov 2014 (previously the job was handled by Judicial Affairs). Crawford's staff was undersized and I think she was overwhelmed by the job - but all that was a learn as go basis.

---

Patty Crawford was "overwhelmed", I am sure she was. OVERWHELMED by Ramsower and his minions blocking every investigation that had anything to do with sexual assault and rape. Good try spin doctor, most of us know your full of it. just like the rest of y'all that keep pushing your BS.

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DustyM said:

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Keyser Soze said:

---

DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

Malbec said:

---

PartyBear said:

---

Malbec said:

---

PartyBear said:

---

I think people here know my position about the BOR. But Starr had a large role. Other presidents of major universities managed to implement the system. Starr should have as well. Having a law degree and being a former federal judge makes his direlection even more unconscionable.

As to stars I rarely star anyone. I sure as hell don't star myself. Is there not a way to see who makes stars?

---

That's a fallacy. Very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor "scandal." In fact, it was very difficult for institutions to even find administrators to lead these departments because there simply were hardly any with experience since the guidance didn't exist before 2011 and the number of institutions that had implemented full-time staff was miniscule. Universities were building these departments "on the fly" with people who had to try and understand the guidance as they built.

---

It is not a fallacy. Your second sentence states very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor scandal. Perhaps true. Starr however did not even make an attempt to implement anything. His dereliction was unconscionable, even if he did not have a law degree and was not a former federal judge.

---

I understand that you are a Clintonista, but you are just wrong. Even Keyser will tell you so. Baylor did have some level of T9 protocol in place, even if they still operated it under 1950s puritanical standards. The problem was that Baylor was just like the vast majority of colleges in America, but when the breeze met the excrement, it was Baylor that was soaking in the media hot tub. There were literally more than 100 universities under federal investigation for T9 irregularities at the time it all broke loose on Baylor, and BU was not one of those. Even if you believe that Starr had some philosophical legal differences with the OCR guidance (as many did and still do), he did no less than most every other university president in the nation, including those at state institutions with more at stake in the federal funding lottery.

While it may be true that it took a media firestorm of epic proportions for Baylor to step up its game in this part of T9 direction, they had not completely ignored it before, and were on par with the vast majority of institutions in the country. So, if you want to say that Starr was not a pacesetter when it came to toeing the line of the recent OCR guidance, that would be a fair statement. However, to suggest that somehow he was a "derelict" administrator when compared to just about every other college president and chancellor in the nation is just nonsense. It's just more piling on by those who simply never liked the guy.

---

Agree. Yes Baylor was behind on T9, but they certainly looked more like than dislike other Universities.

Prior to Pepper, they had other audits and recommendations. The result was the hiring of Patti Crawford as Baylor's first full time T9 coordinator in Nov 2014 (previously the job was handled by Judicial Affairs). Crawford's staff was undersized and I think she was overwhelmed by the job - but all that was a learn as go basis.

---

Patty Crawford was "overwhelmed", I am sure she was. OVERWHELMED by Ramsower and his minions blocking every investigation that had anything to do with sexual assault and rape. Good try spin doctor, most of us know your full of it. just like the rest of y'all that keep pushing your BS.

---

BS like Art didn't report stuff to Judicial Affairs? or there were 17 Baylor Co-Eds that made allegations against 19 football players? Or that assistant coaches were sent out to meet a victims mom?


Also, if you are going to counter a point I make, don't blatantly make **** up. Ramsower is a creep - you can point out the stuff he actually did if making him look bad is you

---

Mr. Spin Doctor, you and I had this discussion more than two years ago. At that time I told you that JA, SA, Baylor PD and Ramsower were all covering up everything including RAPE and sexual assaults. And you are still wrong

Back at that time, you told me I was wrong and misreading the entire situation. Now that lawsuits have been filed naming Ramsower and his underlings as the ones covering up those crimes, how can you spin it. How can you blame it on Patty Crawford or anyone associated with the football staff. Depositions, swore testimony, lawsuits, and your still trying to spin it. You should actually read those lawsuits

Here you are implying that Art Briles covered up rape by not reporting it to Judicial Affairs. Wow, talk about jamming words in my mouth for things I did not say. Baylor's attorneys have already covered that, maybe you should accept that. No one who DIRECTLY reported to Briles was turned away - check - you should read that closely By the way, It has already come out that the administration, including Judicial Affairs was not informing the football staff Of What? nice try, shameful on your part, but nice try anyway.

As for Ramsower, he was following orders of the BOR. There is no need for me to make Ramsower look like a creep. Everyone that every attended Baylor knows what and who he is. They know what he and the BOR did. I generally get crickets when I ask for specifics on this. What bothers me is why you keep trying to spin it. I don't have to make anything up yet you just did, its all there for everyone to see.

My only question is why you would sell your soul, honor or integrity like those who called alleged victims money grubbing *****s ? Why didn't you call them out? while continuing to push this narrative. You doing this is shameful, just plain shameful. It is a total dishonor to the victims of the Baylor scandal. What is worse your still pushing the FOOTBALL players only Just no. What a blatant lie. You clearly are paying very little attention to what I have said. Seriously, there has been testimony and depositions stating that Baylor students, graduate assistants, faculty, and even a few administrators were all involved in praying on the coeds. Again, No one has ever said it is just football.

Your shameful spin doctor, just shameful.

---

DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

Malbec said:

---

PartyBear said:

---

Malbec said:

---

PartyBear said:

---

I think people here know my position about the BOR. But Starr had a large role. Other presidents of major universities managed to implement the system. Starr should have as well. Having a law degree and being a former federal judge makes his direlection even more unconscionable.

As to stars I rarely star anyone. I sure as hell don't star myself. Is there not a way to see who makes stars?

---

That's a fallacy. Very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor "scandal." In fact, it was very difficult for institutions to even find administrators to lead these departments because there simply were hardly any with experience since the guidance didn't exist before 2011 and the number of institutions that had implemented full-time staff was miniscule. Universities were building these departments "on the fly" with people who had to try and understand the guidance as they built.

---

It is not a fallacy. Your second sentence states very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor scandal. Perhaps true. Starr however did not even make an attempt to implement anything. His dereliction was unconscionable, even if he did not have a law degree and was not a former federal judge.

---

I understand that you are a Clintonista, but you are just wrong. Even Keyser will tell you so. Baylor did have some level of T9 protocol in place, even if they still operated it under 1950s puritanical standards. The problem was that Baylor was just like the vast majority of colleges in America, but when the breeze met the excrement, it was Baylor that was soaking in the media hot tub. There were literally more than 100 universities under federal investigation for T9 irregularities at the time it all broke loose on Baylor, and BU was not one of those. Even if you believe that Starr had some philosophical legal differences with the OCR guidance (as many did and still do), he did no less than most every other university president in the nation, including those at state institutions with more at stake in the federal funding lottery.

While it may be true that it took a media firestorm of epic proportions for Baylor to step up its game in this part of T9 direction, they had not completely ignored it before, and were on par with the vast majority of institutions in the country. So, if you want to say that Starr was not a pacesetter when it came to toeing the line of the recent OCR guidance, that would be a fair statement. However, to suggest that somehow he was a "derelict" administrator when compared to just about every other college president and chancellor in the nation is just nonsense. It's just more piling on by those who simply never liked the guy.

---

Agree. Yes Baylor was behind on T9, but they certainly looked more like than dislike other Universities.

Prior to Pepper, they had other audits and recommendations. The result was the hiring of Patti Crawford as Baylor's first full time T9 coordinator in Nov 2014 (previously the job was handled by Judicial Affairs). Crawford's staff was undersized and I think she was overwhelmed by the job - but all that was a learn as go basis.

---

Patty Crawford was "overwhelmed", I am sure she was. OVERWHELMED by Ramsower and his minions blocking every investigation that had anything to do with sexual assault and rape. Good try spin doctor, most of us know your full of it. just like the rest of y'all that keep pushing your BS.

---

BS like Art didn't report stuff to Judicial Affairs? or there were 17 Baylor Co-Eds that made allegations against 19 football players? Or that assistant coaches were sent out to meet a victims mom?


Also, if you are going to counter a point I make, don't blatantly make **** up. Ramsower is a creep - you can point out the stuff he actually did if making him look bad is you

---

Mr. Spin Doctor, you and I had this discussion more than two years ago. At that time I told you that JA, SA, Baylor PD and Ramsower were all covering up everything including RAPE and sexual assaults. And you are still wrong

Back at that time, you told me I was wrong and misreading the entire situation. Now that lawsuits have been filed naming Ramsower and his underlings as the ones covering up those crimes, how can you spin it. How can you blame it on Patty Crawford or anyone associated with the football staff. Depositions, swore testimony, lawsuits, and your still trying to spin it. You should actually read those lawsuits

Here you are implying that Art Briles covered up rape by not reporting it to Judicial Affairs. Wow, talk about jamming words in my mouth for things I did not say. Baylor's attorneys have already covered that, maybe you should accept that. No one who DIRECTLY reported to Briles was turned away - check - you should read that closely By the way, It has already come out that the administration, including Judicial Affairs was not informing the football staff Of What? nice try, shameful on your part, but nice try anyway.

As for Ramsower, he was following orders of the BOR. There is no need for me to make Ramsower look like a creep. Everyone that every attended Baylor knows what and who he is. They know what he and the BOR did. I generally get crickets when I ask for specifics on this. What bothers me is why you keep trying to spin it. I don't have to make anything up yet you just did, its all there for everyone to see.

My only question is why you would sell your soul, honor or integrity like those who called alleged victims money grubbing *****s ? Why didn't you call them out? while continuing to push this narrative. You doing this is shameful, just plain shameful. It is a total dishonor to the victims of the Baylor scandal. What is worse your still pushing the FOOTBALL players only Just no. What a blatant lie. You clearly are paying very little attention to what I have said. Seriously, there has been testimony and depositions stating that Baylor students, graduate assistants, faculty, and even a few administrators were all involved in praying on the coeds. Again, No one has ever said it is just football.

Your shameful spin doctor, just shameful.

---

^bold

The funniest part of all this is that you save your big (and largely inaccurate) Keyser call out for a post for a reply in which I agree with Malbec.

Let me be very clear - no one, admin or football, covered up rape.

---

BS, at least you got one part is right. Football didn't cover up rape. But, your beloved and beholden admin had been doing it for 20 plus years. If admin had not been doing it, why is Baylor getting sued.

I responded to your post because you stated that Crawford was overwhelmed. Once again part of your implied crap.

Crawford has gone on record, including suing Baylor, because Ramsower was blocking all of sexual assault cases. But I guess Ramsower isn't part of the administration.

Shameful, you have sold your soul for a dollar. YOU sir, should be ashamed of yourself. SHAMEFUL.

---

Keyser Soze said:

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DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

Malbec said:

---

PartyBear said:

---

Malbec said:

---

PartyBear said:

---

I think people here know my position about the BOR. But Starr had a large role. Other presidents of major universities managed to implement the system. Starr should have as well. Having a law degree and being a former federal judge makes his direlection even more unconscionable.

As to stars I rarely star anyone. I sure as hell don't star myself. Is there not a way to see who makes stars?

---

That's a fallacy. Very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor "scandal." In fact, it was very difficult for institutions to even find administrators to lead these departments because there simply were hardly any with experience since the guidance didn't exist before 2011 and the number of institutions that had implemented full-time staff was miniscule. Universities were building these departments "on the fly" with people who had to try and understand the guidance as they built.

---

It is not a fallacy. Your second sentence states very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor scandal. Perhaps true. Starr however did not even make an attempt to implement anything. His dereliction was unconscionable, even if he did not have a law degree and was not a former federal judge.

---

I understand that you are a Clintonista, but you are just wrong. Even Keyser will tell you so. Baylor did have some level of T9 protocol in place, even if they still operated it under 1950s puritanical standards. The problem was that Baylor was just like the vast majority of colleges in America, but when the breeze met the excrement, it was Baylor that was soaking in the media hot tub. There were literally more than 100 universities under federal investigation for T9 irregularities at the time it all broke loose on Baylor, and BU was not one of those. Even if you believe that Starr had some philosophical legal differences with the OCR guidance (as many did and still do), he did no less than most every other university president in the nation, including those at state institutions with more at stake in the federal funding lottery.

While it may be true that it took a media firestorm of epic proportions for Baylor to step up its game in this part of T9 direction, they had not completely ignored it before, and were on par with the vast majority of institutions in the country. So, if you want to say that Starr was not a pacesetter when it came to toeing the line of the recent OCR guidance, that would be a fair statement. However, to suggest that somehow he was a "derelict" administrator when compared to just about every other college president and chancellor in the nation is just nonsense. It's just more piling on by those who simply never liked the guy.

---

Agree. Yes Baylor was behind on T9, but they certainly looked more like than dislike other Universities.

Prior to Pepper, they had other audits and recommendations. The result was the hiring of Patti Crawford as Baylor's first full time T9 coordinator in Nov 2014 (previously the job was handled by Judicial Affairs). Crawford's staff was undersized and I think she was overwhelmed by the job - but all that was a learn as go basis.

---

Patty Crawford was "overwhelmed", I am sure she was. OVERWHELMED by Ramsower and his minions blocking every investigation that had anything to do with sexual assault and rape. Good try spin doctor, most of us know your full of it. just like the rest of y'all that keep pushing your BS.

---

BS like Art didn't report stuff to Judicial Affairs? or there were 17 Baylor Co-Eds that made allegations against 19 football players? Or that assistant coaches were sent out to meet a victims mom?


Also, if you are going to counter a point I make, don't blatantly make **** up. Ramsower is a creep - you can point out the stuff he actually did if making him look bad is you

---

Mr. Spin Doctor, you and I had this discussion more than two years ago. At that time I told you that JA, SA, Baylor PD and Ramsower were all covering up everything including RAPE and sexual assaults. And you are still wrong

Back at that time, you told me I was wrong and misreading the entire situation. Now that lawsuits have been filed naming Ramsower and his underlings as the ones covering up those crimes, how can you spin it. How can you blame it on Patty Crawford or anyone associated with the football staff. Depositions, swore testimony, lawsuits, and your still trying to spin it. You should actually read those lawsuits

Here you are implying that Art Briles covered up rape by not reporting it to Judicial Affairs. Wow, talk about jamming words in my mouth for things I did not say. Baylor's attorneys have already covered that, maybe you should accept that. No one who DIRECTLY reported to Briles was turned away - check - you should read that closely By the way, It has already come out that the administration, including Judicial Affairs was not informing the football staff Of What? nice try, shameful on your part, but nice try anyway.

As for Ramsower, he was following orders of the BOR. There is no need for me to make Ramsower look like a creep. Everyone that every attended Baylor knows what and who he is. They know what he and the BOR did. I generally get crickets when I ask for specifics on this. What bothers me is why you keep trying to spin it. I don't have to make anything up yet you just did, its all there for everyone to see.

My only question is why you would sell your soul, honor or integrity like those who called alleged victims money grubbing *****s ? Why didn't you call them out? while continuing to push this narrative. You doing this is shameful, just plain shameful. It is a total dishonor to the victims of the Baylor scandal. What is worse your still pushing the FOOTBALL players only Just no. What a blatant lie. You clearly are paying very little attention to what I have said. Seriously, there has been testimony and depositions stating that Baylor students, graduate assistants, faculty, and even a few administrators were all involved in praying on the coeds. Again, No one has ever said it is just football.

Your shameful spin doctor, just shameful.

---

^bold

The funniest part of all this is that you save your big (and largely inaccurate) Keyser call out for a post for a reply in which I agree with Malbec.

Let me be very clear - no one, admin or football, covered up rape.

---

BS, at least you got one part is right. Football didn't cover up rape. But, your beloved and beholden admin had been doing it for 20 plus years. If admin had not been doing it, why is Baylor getting sued.

I responded to your post because you stated that Crawford was overwhelmed. Once again part of your implied crap.

Crawford has gone on record, including suing Baylor, because Ramsower was blocking all of sexual assault cases. But I guess Ramsower isn't part of the administration.

Shameful, you have sold your soul for a dollar. YOU sir, should be ashamed of yourself. SHAMEFUL.

---

Baylor has strongly denied much of what Crawford said.

https://www.baylor.edu/thefacts/doc.php/275685.pdf


Title IX investigator Lyons said they impeded her investigations. Do you know the specific behind that claim? She said they required her to have an escort when interviewing football players for her safety. That was the big interference.

Sold soul for a dollar? *** are you talking about - I have zero financial interest to anyone or any organization even remotely tangent to this mess.

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Osodecentx said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

DustyM said:

---

Keyser Soze said:

---

Malbec said:

---

PartyBear said:

---

Malbec said:

---

PartyBear said:

---

I think people here know my position about the BOR. But Starr had a large role. Other presidents of major universities managed to implement the system. Starr should have as well. Having a law degree and being a former federal judge makes his direlection even more unconscionable.

As to stars I rarely star anyone. I sure as hell don't star myself. Is there not a way to see who makes stars?

---

That's a fallacy. Very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor "scandal." In fact, it was very difficult for institutions to even find administrators to lead these departments because there simply were hardly any with experience since the guidance didn't exist before 2011 and the number of institutions that had implemented full-time staff was miniscule. Universities were building these departments "on the fly" with people who had to try and understand the guidance as they built.

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It is not a fallacy. Your second sentence states very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor scandal. Perhaps true. Starr however did not even make an attempt to implement anything. His dereliction was unconscionable, even if he did not have a law degree and was not a former federal judge.

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I understand that you are a Clintonista, but you are just wrong. Even Keyser will tell you so. Baylor did have some level of T9 protocol in place, even if they still operated it under 1950s puritanical standards. The problem was that Baylor was just like the vast majority of colleges in America, but when the breeze met the excrement, it was Baylor that was soaking in the media hot tub. There were literally more than 100 universities under federal investigation for T9 irregularities at the time it all broke loose on Baylor, and BU was not one of those. Even if you believe that Starr had some philosophical legal differences with the OCR guidance (as many did and still do), he did no less than most every other university president in the nation, including those at state institutions with more at stake in the federal funding lottery.

While it may be true that it took a media firestorm of epic proportions for Baylor to step up its game in this part of T9 direction, they had not completely ignored it before, and were on par with the vast majority of institutions in the country. So, if you want to say that Starr was not a pacesetter when it came to toeing the line of the recent OCR guidance, that would be a fair statement. However, to suggest that somehow he was a "derelict" administrator when compared to just about every other college president and chancellor in the nation is just nonsense. It's just more piling on by those who simply never liked the guy.

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Agree. Yes Baylor was behind on T9, but they certainly looked more like than dislike other Universities.

Prior to Pepper, they had other audits and recommendations. The result was the hiring of Patti Crawford as Baylor's first full time T9 coordinator in Nov 2014 (previously the job was handled by Judicial Affairs). Crawford's staff was undersized and I think she was overwhelmed by the job - but all that was a learn as go basis.

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Patty Crawford was "overwhelmed", I am sure she was. OVERWHELMED by Ramsower and his minions blocking every investigation that had anything to do with sexual assault and rape. Good try spin doctor, most of us know your full of it. just like the rest of y'all that keep pushing your BS.

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BS like Art didn't report stuff to Judicial Affairs? or there were 17 Baylor Co-Eds that made allegations against 19 football players? Or that assistant coaches were sent out to meet a victims mom?


Also, if you are going to counter a point I make, don't blatantly make **** up. Ramsower is a creep - you can point out the stuff he actually did if making him look bad is you

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Mr. Spin Doctor, you and I had this discussion more than two years ago. At that time I told you that JA, SA, Baylor PD and Ramsower were all covering up everything including RAPE and sexual assaults. And you are still wrong

Back at that time, you told me I was wrong and misreading the entire situation. Now that lawsuits have been filed naming Ramsower and his underlings as the ones covering up those crimes, how can you spin it. How can you blame it on Patty Crawford or anyone associated with the football staff. Depositions, swore testimony, lawsuits, and your still trying to spin it. You should actually read those lawsuits

Here you are implying that Art Briles covered up rape by not reporting it to Judicial Affairs. Wow, talk about jamming words in my mouth for things I did not say. Baylor's attorneys have already covered that, maybe you should accept that. No one who DIRECTLY reported to Briles was turned away - check - you should read that closely By the way, It has already come out that the administration, including Judicial Affairs was not informing the football staff Of What? nice try, shameful on your part, but nice try anyway.

As for Ramsower, he was following orders of the BOR. There is no need for me to make Ramsower look like a creep. Everyone that every attended Baylor knows what and who he is. They know what he and the BOR did. I generally get crickets when I ask for specifics on this. What bothers me is why you keep trying to spin it. I don't have to make anything up yet you just did, its all there for everyone to see.

My only question is why you would sell your soul, honor or integrity like those who called alleged victims money grubbing *****s ? Why didn't you call them out? while continuing to push this narrative. You doing this is shameful, just plain shameful. It is a total dishonor to the victims of the Baylor scandal. What is worse your still pushing the FOOTBALL players only Just no. What a blatant lie. You clearly are paying very little attention to what I have said. Seriously, there has been testimony and depositions stating that Baylor students, graduate assistants, faculty, and even a few administrators were all involved in praying on the coeds. Again, No one has ever said it is just football.

Your shameful spin doctor, just shameful.

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^bold

The funniest part of all this is that you save your big (and largely inaccurate) Keyser call out for a post for a reply in which I agree with Malbec.

Let me be very clear - no one, admin or football, covered up rape.

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BS, at least you got one part is right. Football didn't cover up rape. But, your beloved and beholden admin had been doing it for 20 plus years. If admin had not been doing it, why is Baylor getting sued.

I responded to your post because you stated that Crawford was overwhelmed. Once again part of your implied crap.

Crawford has gone on record, including suing Baylor, because Ramsower was blocking all of sexual assault cases. But I guess Ramsower isn't part of the administration.

Shameful, you have sold your soul for a dollar. YOU sir, should be ashamed of yourself. SHAMEFUL.

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Baylor has strongly denied much of what Crawford said.

https://www.baylor.edu/thefacts/doc.php/275685.pdf


Title IX investigator Lyons said they impeded her investigations. Do you know the specific behind that claim? She said they required her to have an escort when interviewing football players for her safety. That was the big interference.

Sold soul for a dollar? *** are you talking about - I have zero financial interest to anyone or any organization even remotely tangent to this mess.

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Release the documents. I hope the cases go to trial.

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Malbec said:

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Quote:

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Baylor has strongly denied much of what Crawford said.

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No ****? Why are their denials more credible than others'?

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beerman said:

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Didn't Starr recommend the hiring of Pepper Hamilton? Ultimately, that decision alone, if true, might be the single worst decision ever made by a modern-day college president (both financially and for the university's credibility).

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DustyM said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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DustyM said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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DustyM said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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DustyM said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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Malbec said:

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PartyBear said:

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Malbec said:

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PartyBear said:

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I think people here know my position about the BOR. But Starr had a large role. Other presidents of major universities managed to implement the system. Starr should have as well. Having a law degree and being a former federal judge makes his direlection even more unconscionable.

As to stars I rarely star anyone. I sure as hell don't star myself. Is there not a way to see who makes stars?

---

That's a fallacy. Very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor "scandal." In fact, it was very difficult for institutions to even find administrators to lead these departments because there simply were hardly any with experience since the guidance didn't exist before 2011 and the number of institutions that had implemented full-time staff was miniscule. Universities were building these departments "on the fly" with people who had to try and understand the guidance as they built.

---

It is not a fallacy. Your second sentence states very few universities had fully implemented the OCR guidance prior to the Baylor scandal. Perhaps true. Starr however did not even make an attempt to implement anything. His dereliction was unconscionable, even if he did not have a law degree and was not a former federal judge.

---

I understand that you are a Clintonista, but you are just wrong. Even Keyser will tell you so. Baylor did have some level of T9 protocol in place, even if they still operated it under 1950s puritanical standards. The problem was that Baylor was just like the vast majority of colleges in America, but when the breeze met the excrement, it was Baylor that was soaking in the media hot tub. There were literally more than 100 universities under federal investigation for T9 irregularities at the time it all broke loose on Baylor, and BU was not one of those. Even if you believe that Starr had some philosophical legal differences with the OCR guidance (as many did and still do), he did no less than most every other university president in the nation, including those at state institutions with more at stake in the federal funding lottery.

While it may be true that it took a media firestorm of epic proportions for Baylor to step up its game in this part of T9 direction, they had not completely ignored it before, and were on par with the vast majority of institutions in the country. So, if you want to say that Starr was not a pacesetter when it came to toeing the line of the recent OCR guidance, that would be a fair statement. However, to suggest that somehow he was a "derelict" administrator when compared to just about every other college president and chancellor in the nation is just nonsense. It's just more piling on by those who simply never liked the guy.

---

Agree. Yes Baylor was behind on T9, but they certainly looked more like than dislike other Universities.

Prior to Pepper, they had other audits and recommendations. The result was the hiring of Patti Crawford as Baylor's first full time T9 coordinator in Nov 2014 (previously the job was handled by Judicial Affairs). Crawford's staff was undersized and I think she was overwhelmed by the job - but all that was a learn as go basis.

---

Patty Crawford was "overwhelmed", I am sure she was. OVERWHELMED by Ramsower and his minions blocking every investigation that had anything to do with sexual assault and rape. Good try spin doctor, most of us know your full of it. just like the rest of y'all that keep pushing your BS.

---

BS like Art didn't report stuff to Judicial Affairs? or there were 17 Baylor Co-Eds that made allegations against 19 football players? Or that assistant coaches were sent out to meet a victims mom?


Also, if you are going to counter a point I make, don't blatantly make **** up. Ramsower is a creep - you can point out the stuff he actually did if making him look bad is you

---

Mr. Spin Doctor, you and I had this discussion more than two years ago. At that time I told you that JA, SA, Baylor PD and Ramsower were all covering up everything including RAPE and sexual assaults. And you are still wrong

Back at that time, you told me I was wrong and misreading the entire situation. Now that lawsuits have been filed naming Ramsower and his underlings as the ones covering up those crimes, how can you spin it. How can you blame it on Patty Crawford or anyone associated with the football staff. Depositions, swore testimony, lawsuits, and your still trying to spin it. You should actually read those lawsuits

Here you are implying that Art Briles covered up rape by not reporting it to Judicial Affairs. Wow, talk about jamming words in my mouth for things I did not say. Baylor's attorneys have already covered that, maybe you should accept that. No one who DIRECTLY reported to Briles was turned away - check - you should read that closely By the way, It has already come out that the administration, including Judicial Affairs was not informing the football staff Of What? nice try, shameful on your part, but nice try anyway.

As for Ramsower, he was following orders of the BOR. There is no need for me to make Ramsower look like a creep. Everyone that every attended Baylor knows what and who he is. They know what he and the BOR did. I generally get crickets when I ask for specifics on this. What bothers me is why you keep trying to spin it. I don't have to make anything up yet you just did, its all there for everyone to see.

My only question is why you would sell your soul, honor or integrity like those who called alleged victims money grubbing *****s ? Why didn't you call them out? while continuing to push this narrative. You doing this is shameful, just plain shameful. It is a total dishonor to the victims of the Baylor scandal. What is worse your still pushing the FOOTBALL players only Just no. What a blatant lie. You clearly are paying very little attention to what I have said. Seriously, there has been testimony and depositions stating that Baylor students, graduate assistants, faculty, and even a few administrators were all involved in praying on the coeds. Again, No one has ever said it is just football.

Your shameful spin doctor, just shameful.

---

^bold

The funniest part of all this is that you save your big (and largely inaccurate) Keyser call out for a post for a reply in which I agree with Malbec.

Let me be very clear - no one, admin or football, covered up rape.

---

BS, at least you got one part is right. Football didn't cover up rape. But, your beloved and beholden admin had been doing it for 20 plus years. If admin had not been doing it, why is Baylor getting sued.

I responded to your post because you stated that Crawford was overwhelmed. Once again part of your implied crap.

Crawford has gone on record, including suing Baylor, because Ramsower was blocking all of sexual assault cases. But I guess Ramsower isn't part of the administration.

Shameful, you have sold your soul for a dollar. YOU sir, should be ashamed of yourself. SHAMEFUL.

---

Baylor has strongly denied much of what Crawford said.

https://www.baylor.edu/thefacts/doc.php/275685.pdf


Title IX investigator Lyons said they impeded her investigations. Do you know the specific behind that claim? She said they required her to have an escort when interviewing football players for her safety. That was the big interference.

Sold soul for a dollar? *** are you talking about - I have zero financial interest to anyone or any organization even remotely tangent to this mess.

---

And we are supposed to believe what came out of Baylor, especially regarding anything to do with this disaster. REALLY.

Spin in Doc, next we know, you'll be standing behind a table spinning a record back and forth with a headset on, dancing to the jive. SPIN IT DOC, go for it.

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Redbrickbear said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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beerman said:

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Didn't Starr recommend the hiring of Pepper Hamilton? Ultimately, that decision alone, if true, might be the single worst decision ever made by a modern-day college president (both financially and for the university's credibility).

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Agree. They should've hired a defense firm. Hiring PH to run an expose to our naive and panicky BOR was a horrendous idea.

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The BOR emotional based decisions will haunt us for a long time.

They interfere in campus matters when they want.....then if they things go bad they blame underlings and claim that they don't have responsibility.


They really are the worst type of corporate/country club social climbers.

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PartyBear said:

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A couple of points. Starr's not doing what he was supposed to in terms of Title IX is why we had the mess in the first place with football and all the lawsuits. In short we never will know but Starr could very well have cost Baylor at least one national title run in football this decade.

Secondly what saved the Big XII 9 years ago was Texas deciding it was more profitable to stay in the Big XII. It had nothing to do with Starr. Just to show how irrelevant Starr was to that, several schools left the Big XII despite Starr's moves. His legal threats were irrelevant.

In short I'm not fond of Starr. He was ultimately a disaster for the school.

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MaduroUTMB said:

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PartyBear said:

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A couple of points. Starr's not doing what he was supposed to in terms of Title IX is why we had the mess in the first place with football and all the lawsuits. In short we never will know but Starr could very well have cost Baylor at least one national title run in football this decade.

Secondly what saved the Big XII 9 years ago was Texas deciding it was more profitable to stay in the Big XII. It had nothing to do with Starr. Just to show how irrelevant Starr was to that, several schools left the Big XII despite Starr's moves. His legal threats were irrelevant.

In short I'm not fond of Starr. He was ultimately a disaster for the school.

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I don't think that Starr's VERY loose interpretation of the T IX DCL helped Baylor at all, but the problems with Baylor PD and JA were a lot deeper and older than Ken Starr.

Baylor's Student Code of Conduct and unconditional enforcement of the prohibition against drinking and drug use put them into a fundamental conflict of interest when it came to enforcing or even taking reports of sexual assault. Girls at Baylor knew that, and correctly guessed that the risk of being punished for drinking/drug use and having their complaint ignored outweighed the likelihood of Baylor PD or JA catching a rapist. Effectively, Baylor's policy was that "If you can get a drink or some weed into her, you can have your way with her unless we actually catch you in flagrante delicto."

That policy predated Starr by decades, and his failure to axe the folks responsible or just leave whenever it becamse apparent that the Regents liked it that way is the real mark of shame against him. Of course, Livingstone hasn't been able to pull those weeds either, which reinforces my belief that the roots go VERY deep.

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Keyser Soze said:

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... They were clueless which is significant. ...

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