The Pros don't take kindly to losing like the Baylor BOR do.

If Rhule is true to form (Temple, Baylor), Carolina's first year will be terrible, second year will be mediocre but noticeably better, & third year will be great. It remains to be seen whether or not this formula will carry over to the NFL but those who hired him and were excited by his arrival there must have known his record and recognized the pattern for what it was.

It may not be the Augean stables, but the process of clearing out the old and installing the new takes time, at least under CMR. I don't know why anyone would be surprised that they lost a game or that they will be surprised when they lose a bunch more.

boognish_bear said:

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Snake oil can only take you so far Mattie

ImABearToo said:

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1-15...we have to learn to lose....trust the process....that loss is on the coaching staff....

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You are nuts if you think its on the coaching staff. They almost won against Tom Brady and a great defense despite Teddy Bridgewater throwing a pick six and fumbling in Panthers territory in the first half. If you actually watched the game you'd know that. It didn't help that CMC missed the final two crucial drives.

Easier to tank games at the college level...Liberty, UTSA....especially since interest in BU football by the tv networks in '17 was minimal at best. Throwing games at the nfl level with 24-hour coverage will be more of a challenge for old sleeveless to pull off.

Green&GoldStandard said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Snake oil can only take you so far Mattie

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Well, it (and the fact that he's an elite football coach) have taken him to the pinnacle of his profession, so ...

Does being an NFL HC make one elite? Is that the one and the same just checking on definitions.

bear2be2 said:

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PartyBear said:

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Does being an NFL HC make one elite? Is that the one and the same just checking on definitions.

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No, but taking two down-trodden college programs to unprecedented or barely precedented heights in a span of seven years does.

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BuhT LIbeRTy!!!!!! *screeching*

CAB throttled Rains Friday to go 3-0.

bear2be2 said:

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PartyBear said:

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Does being an NFL HC make one elite? Is that the one and the same just checking on definitions.

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No, but taking two down-trodden college programs to unprecedented or barely precedented heights in a span of seven years does.

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Weak. Do some research on both teams just before he arrived hear. Temple was a solid program and we were coming off a bowl win.

bear2be2 said:

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PartyBear said:

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Does being an NFL HC make one elite? Is that the one and the same just checking on definitions.

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No, but taking two down-trodden college programs to unprecedented or barely precedented heights in a span of seven years does.

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Not completely accurate. Just a couple of years before Rhule's hire, Al Golden had taken Temple to a 9-3 record, as did his successor, Steve Addazio, a season before CMR was hired. They saw a step back in Addazio's final year to 4-7. But the turn around had already started a few years before CMR's hire.

It reminds me somewhat of what happened at Baylor. CMR followed an incredibly successful coach who laid the groundwork for success. I of course understand the state of the program at the time CMR was hired, but much of the infrastructure was in place when he arrived. I give him all the credit in the world for what he did, especially given the recruiting losses, and will always be grateful.

bear2be2 said:

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Green&GoldStandard said:

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bear2be2 said:

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PartyBear said:

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Does being an NFL HC make one elite? Is that the one and the same just checking on definitions.

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No, but taking two down-trodden college programs to unprecedented or barely precedented heights in a span of seven years does.

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Weak. Do some research on both teams just before he arrived hear. Temple was a solid program and we were coming off a bowl win.

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A few decent years under Al Golden in the MAC doesn't change the fact that Temple was, even at that time, one of the worst Division I football programs in history. And Addazio had lost much of Golden's momentum during Temple's transition from the MAC to the much tougher American. Rhule took over a four-win team and won at a higher level than either of his two most recent predecessors out of a more difficult league than they faced.

And Baylor was a dumpster fire when Rhule took over. It was a scandal-ridden program that had just lost most of its talent from a team that lost its last six regular-season games. The only people who try to paint Rhule's situation at Baylor as anything but a **** storm are CABers trying to preserve what little they can of Briles' Baylor legacy.

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As someone who followed Temple for years before CMR's hire, your first paragraph simply isn't accurate. Many of the Temple faithful were very upset at the step back the program experienced during CMR's first 2 years, given Golden's success. A number of them called for his firing. Thankfully, that didn't happen, but there were a lot of pissed off alumns those first couple of years.

Golden's success at Temple was at least as good as CMR's, and perhaps even more impressive due to the fact that Temple, prior to Golden, had not won 9 games since before the 1950s.

What's interesting about CMR's time at Temple is that it was kind of the hate/love relationship that many Baylor fans still seem to possess. Many blamed him for the 1 and 2 win seasons his first couple of years, believing he had burned the success of the prior coaches to the ground. I will never forget my father-in-law's reaction to him leaving (a Temple alumn who played QB for Temple back in the 60's). He was sort of ambivalent.

BUGWBBear said:

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CAB throttled Rains Friday to go 3-0.

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Great, no one cares.

Mothra said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Green&GoldStandard said:

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bear2be2 said:

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PartyBear said:

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Does being an NFL HC make one elite? Is that the one and the same just checking on definitions.

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No, but taking two down-trodden college programs to unprecedented or barely precedented heights in a span of seven years does.

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Weak. Do some research on both teams just before he arrived hear. Temple was a solid program and we were coming off a bowl win.

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A few decent years under Al Golden in the MAC doesn't change the fact that Temple was, even at that time, one of the worst Division I football programs in history. And Addazio had lost much of Golden's momentum during Temple's transition from the MAC to the much tougher American. Rhule took over a four-win team and won at a higher level than either of his two most recent predecessors out of a more difficult league than they faced.

And Baylor was a dumpster fire when Rhule took over. It was a scandal-ridden program that had just lost most of its talent from a team that lost its last six regular-season games. The only people who try to paint Rhule's situation at Baylor as anything but a **** storm are CABers trying to preserve what little they can of Briles' Baylor legacy.

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As someone who followed Temple for years before CMR's hire, your first paragraph simply isn't accurate. Many of the Temple faithful were very upset at the step back the program experienced during CMR's first 2 years, given Golden's success. A number of them called for his firing. Thankfully, that didn't happen, but there were a lot of pissed off alumns those first couple of years.

Golden's success at Temple was at least as good as CMR's, and perhaps even more impressive due to the fact that Temple, prior to Golden, had not won 9 games since before the 1950s.

What's interesting about CMR's time at Temple is that it was kind of the hate/love relationship that many Baylor fans still seem to possess. Many blamed him for the 1 and 2 win seasons his first couple of years, believing he had burned the success of the prior coaches to the ground. I will never forget my father-in-law's reaction to him leaving (a Temple alumn who played QB for Temple back in the 60's). He was sort of ambivalent.

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Al Golden did a great job at Temple, and deserves credit for kick-starting that program's turnaround. But winning in the MAC isn't nearly as difficult as winning in the American, as Addazio learned in Year 2. Almost every team in the MAC has had a similar run at one time or another in the last 20 years, and other than Northern Illinois, no one has experienced any sustained success to speak of.

With the move to the American, Rhule basically had to build the program again. They weren't equipped to compete in their new conference when he took over. And he had them in back-to-back title games by the time he left.

I only asked regarding the definition of elite. To me elite is some one with a couple P5 conference titles under their belt at a miniumum. National title runs and wins and or SuperBowl appearances and or wins gets one there in my book. Pete Carroll is an elite coach as an example. Jimmy Johnson was etc. Rhule isnt there. He may be one some day but he isnt now. I just wanted to make sure the definition was not "getting an NFL HC job per se".

bear2be2 said:

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Mothra said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Green&GoldStandard said:

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bear2be2 said:

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PartyBear said:

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Does being an NFL HC make one elite? Is that the one and the same just checking on definitions.

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No, but taking two down-trodden college programs to unprecedented or barely precedented heights in a span of seven years does.

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Weak. Do some research on both teams just before he arrived hear. Temple was a solid program and we were coming off a bowl win.

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A few decent years under Al Golden in the MAC doesn't change the fact that Temple was, even at that time, one of the worst Division I football programs in history. And Addazio had lost much of Golden's momentum during Temple's transition from the MAC to the much tougher American. Rhule took over a four-win team and won at a higher level than either of his two most recent predecessors out of a more difficult league than they faced.

And Baylor was a dumpster fire when Rhule took over. It was a scandal-ridden program that had just lost most of its talent from a team that lost its last six regular-season games. The only people who try to paint Rhule's situation at Baylor as anything but a **** storm are CABers trying to preserve what little they can of Briles' Baylor legacy.

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As someone who followed Temple for years before CMR's hire, your first paragraph simply isn't accurate. Many of the Temple faithful were very upset at the step back the program experienced during CMR's first 2 years, given Golden's success. A number of them called for his firing. Thankfully, that didn't happen, but there were a lot of pissed off alumns those first couple of years.

Golden's success at Temple was at least as good as CMR's, and perhaps even more impressive due to the fact that Temple, prior to Golden, had not won 9 games since before the 1950s.

What's interesting about CMR's time at Temple is that it was kind of the hate/love relationship that many Baylor fans still seem to possess. Many blamed him for the 1 and 2 win seasons his first couple of years, believing he had burned the success of the prior coaches to the ground. I will never forget my father-in-law's reaction to him leaving (a Temple alumn who played QB for Temple back in the 60's). He was sort of ambivalent.

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Al Golden did a great job at Temple, and deserves credit for kick-starting that program's turnaround. But winning in the MAC isn't nearly as difficult as winning in the American, as Addazio learned in Year 2. Almost every team in the MAC has had a similar run at one time or another in the last 20 years, and other than Northern Illinois, no one has experienced any sustained success to speak of.

With the move to the American, Rhule basically had to build the program again. They weren't equipped to compete in their new conference when he took over. And he had them in back-to-back title games by the time he left.

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Meh. I agree it was a step up in competition, but disagree about how much.

Addazio's problem was he wasn't a very good coach, IMO, and he was also a bad recruiter. The offense took a big step back under him. Golden had more of an open offense than Addazio. He was able to use the players Golden recruited to have a good first season, but that second season we started to see the real Addazio, IMO.

I think CMR ended up being a great hire, of course, but Golden had already laid the groundwork. That was my only point.

PartyBear said:

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I only asked regarding the definition of elite. To me elite is some one with a couple P5 conference titles under their belt at a miniumum. National title runs and wins and or SuperBowl appearances and or wins gets one there in my book. Pete Carroll is an elite coach as an example. Jimmy Johnson was etc. Rhule isnt there. He may be one some day but he isnt now. I just wanted to make sure the definition was not "getting an NFL HC job per se".

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I'm not necessarily arguing that Rhule's resume is elite, though I'd argue it's very impressive. But I think he's exhibited elite skills as an organization-builder, talent evaluator/developer and Xs and Os football coach -- and it's resulted in elite results at each career stop so far. He hasn't stayed anywhere long enough to sustain those results yet, but I think that's just a matter of time. The way he builds programs sets them up for sustainable success.

It's tough to call Matt accomplished for what he did at Baylor, my standard is winning conference titles.
He won a lot of close games. I'm sorry, the offense was unimpressive.
But holy madre de dios, Phil Snow is a bad man. That defense was legit crazy good. With time and talent upgrades, that could have been a contender. Let's give Phil Snow some credit.

He fixed program character issues, he absolutely gets credit for that and the wins that go with it. He didn't blink when it needed to be addressed, me broke people down and that might be the most impressive thing he did during his tenure. I'll give him all the credit for teaching character. Phil and Art never understand that.

But three years in college football does not a commitment make. He quit recruiting at the end. There were no big signees. And it says a lot when you take a pay raise, move to Texas and then say things like "I had no idea how hot it could be in Texas." Seriously?

Matt's in it for the money. 36 months from now, it won't matter. He'll be retired.

But if he slips and falls sometime between now and then, there may not be a way up.

I guess I missed that Clay was with the Panthers now

Speaking of character. He did not handle his coaching searches very well. In fact if he did not get one after last season, his continued being here was going actually start being a hindrance to the program. It all worked out for the good of everyone. His silly statements such as "I am true Baylor" just two weeks before he bolted wasnt real good. I personally put no meaning to it as I had argued since he was looking to leave after the 17 season that he was looking to leave and be prepared. But alot of folks here and off the board believed Rhule when he would say those things. He probably should have toned it down after last season when I believe he did have a good idea he was gone in a week or so.

TellMeYouLoveMe said:

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It's tough to call Matt accomplished for what he did at Baylor, my standard is winning conference titles.
He won a lot of close games. I'm sorry, the offense was unimpressive.
But holy madre de dios, Phil Snow is a bad man. That defense was legit crazy good. With time and talent upgrades, that could have been a contender. Let's give Phil Snow some credit.

He fixed program character issues, he absolutely gets credit for that and the wins that go with it. He didn't blink when it needed to be addressed, me broke people down and that might be the most impressive thing he did during his tenure. I'll give him all the credit for teaching character. Phil and Art never understand that.

But three years in college football does not a commitment make. He quit recruiting at the end. There were no big signees. And it says a lot when you take a pay raise, move to Texas and then say things like "I had no idea how hot it could be in Texas." Seriously?

Matt's in it for the money. 36 months from now, it won't matter. He'll be retired.

But if he slips and falls sometime between now and then, there may not be a way up.

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Rhule's goal has always been to coach in the NFL and he's there now. To think he'll be retired in three years is ludicrous. Just because his career aspirations did not align with what some of us thought they should be, doesn't make him a bad or greedy person. Most people have held jobs that were mere stops on the way to larger goals. It sucks that Baylor was that for Rhule, but no college job was going to provide for him what he was looking for.

Quote:

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And Baylor was a dumpster fire when Rhule took over. It was a scandal-ridden program that had just lost most of its talent from a team that lost its last six regular-season games. The only people who try to paint Rhule's situation at Baylor as anything but a **** storm are CABers trying to preserve what little they can of Briles' Baylor legacy.

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Whoa. I'm team ART and I wish Rhule nothing but the best. He was great for us. Last season was amazing. Anyone who takes away from what Rhule accomplished here is just , well, I'm at a loss for words as to how anyone could trash his success here.

Really happy he won yesterday.

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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And Baylor was a dumpster fire when Rhule took over. It was a scandal-ridden program that had just lost most of its talent from a team that lost its last six regular-season games. The only people who try to paint Rhule's situation at Baylor as anything but a **** storm are CABers trying to preserve what little they can of Briles' Baylor legacy.

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Whoa. I'm team ART and I wish Rhule nothing but the best. He was great for us. Last season was amazing. Anyone who takes away from what Rhule accomplished here is just , well, I'm at a loss for words as to how anyone could trash his success here.

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I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm talking about the situation he inherited. I am and have always been a big Matt Rhule fan.

I understood. I was just saying us Art fans can also appreciate what Matt did here.

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I understood. I was just saying us Art fans can also appreciate what Matt did here.

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Fair enough. I wasn't trying to suggest they couldn't. I was just saying that those who still refuse to acknowledge the challenges Rhule faced here and give his accomplishments due credit are almost exclusively bitter Briles loyalists.

bear2be2 said:

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To think he'll be retired in three years is ludicrous.

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Oh look, someone that doesn't understand $$$.

The contract he signed with the Panthers is a conservative $60 million over 7 years.
By year three, he will have earned half of that, in addition to the millions he made at Baylor. So if he's made $35 million with the Panthers in three years, after taxes he's probably taking home $17-20 million, throw in $2-$ million from Baylor years and he's got enough to quit and live comfortably. If his record is above .500 by year three, he won't have any trouble getting to year 7 on that contract in which case, he stands to take home just north of $30 million.

I can't speak for you, but most folks I know could live comfortably on $30 million.

So tell me what part of that is 'ludicrous,' as you say.