Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

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Not realizing that you have more "scholarship" players than scholarships does. And that's literally all it would have taken to realize that your coach was running a Mickey Mouse program and firing his ass before the **** really hit the fan.

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And would have kept Carlton Dotson from…?

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If Dave Bliss wasn't our coach, Carlton Dotson is likely not on our roster.

But Carlton Dotson being mentally ill or even a murderer wasn't on Baylor. That could happen anywhere. The parts of our scandal that -- and that resulted in sanctions -- were on Baylor were 100 percent avoidable by having people who knew what the **** they were doing in administrative positions.

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100% agree that Dotson mentally ill and killing his roommate was not on Baylor. Also agree that Baylor should've had enough sense to not have too many people on scholarship. But without the murder, what would the penalty for that have been? You're completely blowing through the human reality of what happened there.

We were stupid and sloppy, but we were also largely the beneficiary of some really bad luck.

To this day, I hear Baylor people say that Dave Bliss covered up a murder. That's not true at all, but that's what people say, and that's what most people believe. Not dissimilar from the art briles thing. (hell or even the Jeffrey Epstein thing) But without the pure bad luck of a murder, having Dave Bliss cover a transfer player over the scholarship limit doesn't really amount to much of anything.

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I'm not blowing through the human reality. There was a murder, and murder is always a tragedy, regardless of the circumstances.

But when judging a basketball program's current status and future, I'm not going to use a once-in-forever tragedy as the baseline for forward-looking expectations. That's stupid.

Because again, if we're grading on a "well at lest there was no murder" curve, then there's no point in giving grades at all.

This is a basketball thread. About a basketball team. I'm going to judge our basketball coach, team and program on the same scale that I judge every other. And not only is the Bliss scandal ancient history in regards to Baylor basketball, it's completely irrelevant to the current and future standards of our program.

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Lmao

Then you chose your language poorly

Because everyone here knows this ain't rock bottom

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I don't know how to make it any clearer I'm living and operating in a post-scandal environment. By post-scandal standards, getting your **** pushed in by the worst team in your conference, who happens to have no head coach at the time, is absolutely as bad as it gets. From a basketball standpoint, it can't get worse than that for a program that was competing for national championships a half-decade ago.

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Harry Miller went 0-16 in the big 12 in the late 90s. That didn't have **** to do with the murder. It actually pre dated it.

We've been way worse than this in basketball many many many times throughout our history. This ain't rock-bottom. Not even close.

This is the equivalent of comparing Dave Aranda to Kevin Steele.

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From a practical standpoint, there's little to no difference between 0-16 and 6-12 in conference. Both absolutely suck. And the fact that we have gone from the pinnacle of sport to sucking out loud is why this rock bottom.

It's not 1999 anymore. Baylor has every reason to be competitive athletically now. And until last season, we were widely considered a top-15 program nationally and a top-three program in the best basketball league in the country. That we're currently unable to even field a competitive team and have no tangible reason to expect significant improvement next year and beyond is the basis for the discussion we're having.

For a program with any expectations whatsoever, we've reached rock bottom. And if this isn't a pivot point for our program, we'll soon be back to the Harry Miller years and no one will give a **** about Baylor men's basketball, just like they didn't then.

That that's a really long winded concession. Good work, bud.

Robert Wilson said:

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That that's a really long winded concession. Good work, bud.

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What concession is that exactly?

Your fundamental misunderstanding -- and that of a handful of others in this thread -- of the point being made doesn't invalidate the point.

I was using "rock bottom" in the context it's most commonly used in modern vernacular -- as the point at which addicts finally acknowledge change must be made to avoid a catastrophic fate.

This wasn't a discussion about our program's history. It's a discussion on our program's future. And as such, I feel no need whatsoever to give oxygen to a once-in-forever set of circumstances almost 25 years ago that has no relevance to our program today. I think those who read the original post likely realized that. And I honestly couldn't care less what those who only read the thread title before coming in with their "well actually ..." gotchas think or have to say.

That's great, sweetheart. Just keep talking, and eventually you win the nobody gives a **** filibuster. Clearly this is not actually rock bottom. But just keep going.

Robert Wilson said:

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That's great, sweetheart. Just keep talking, and eventually you win the nobody gives a **** filibuster. Clearly this is not actually rock bottom. But just keep going.

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If this isn't rock bottom for Scott Drew and Baylor in the context I was using, then our basketball program will be back at Harry Miller levels soon enough. We've already dropped to Dave Bliss standards this season, and that's low enough for me.

That you're still posting your silly bull**** in a discussion that has largely already taken place with its intended audience on its intended terms tells me you have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation.

I'll continue to talk Baylor basketball with the few Baylor basketball diehards that still remain here and leave you football dive-bombers to your circle jerks.

bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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That's great, sweetheart. Just keep talking, and eventually you win the nobody gives a **** filibuster. Clearly this is not actually rock bottom. But just keep going.

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If this isn't rock bottom for Scott Drew and Baylor in the context I was using, then our basketball program will be back at Harry Miller levels soon enough. We've already dropped to Dave Bliss standards this season.

That you're still posting your silly bull**** in a discussion that has largely already taken place with its intended audience on its intended terms tells me you have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation.

I'll continue to talk Baylor basketball with the few Baylor basketball diehards that still remain here and leave you football dive-bombers to your circle jerks.

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It's worse than that. I'm a Baylor lifer, and I've seen way worse than this. So I know this is not rock bottom.

Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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That's great, sweetheart. Just keep talking, and eventually you win the nobody gives a **** filibuster. Clearly this is not actually rock bottom. But just keep going.

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If this isn't rock bottom for Scott Drew and Baylor in the context I was using, then our basketball program will be back at Harry Miller levels soon enough. We've already dropped to Dave Bliss standards this season.

That you're still posting your silly bull**** in a discussion that has largely already taken place with its intended audience on its intended terms tells me you have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation.

I'll continue to talk Baylor basketball with the few Baylor basketball diehards that still remain here and leave you football dive-bombers to your circle jerks.

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It's worse than that. I'm a Baylor lifer, and I've seen way worse than this. So I know this is not rock bottom.

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I'm a Baylor lifer as well. I actually attended games coached by Darrel Johnson, Harry Miller and Dave Bliss. I know that Baylor men's basketball has been worse than it currently is.

But you need to understand what the term "rock bottom" refers to in addiction recovery programs to understand the point I was making.

And again, if this season -- and especially the K-State loss -- isn't Scott Drew's rock bottom, Baylor men's basketball is headed for catastrophe. This has to be a pivot point. What we're currently doing is not only not working, it will eventually destroy everything Scott Drew has built at Baylor if we stay on this path.

Addicts can keep shooting heroin and die. And that's a lower floor than being caught in a hooker's bed with a needle in your arm. But those who do recover have to pick a point above the worst possible outcome where the motivation to change exceeds the desire to chase a short-term high. I would hope this season's failure is enough to motivate that change.

bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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That's great, sweetheart. Just keep talking, and eventually you win the nobody gives a **** filibuster. Clearly this is not actually rock bottom. But just keep going.

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If this isn't rock bottom for Scott Drew and Baylor in the context I was using, then our basketball program will be back at Harry Miller levels soon enough. We've already dropped to Dave Bliss standards this season.

That you're still posting your silly bull**** in a discussion that has largely already taken place with its intended audience on its intended terms tells me you have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation.

I'll continue to talk Baylor basketball with the few Baylor basketball diehards that still remain here and leave you football dive-bombers to your circle jerks.

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It's worse than that. I'm a Baylor lifer, and I've seen way worse than this. So I know this is not rock bottom.

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I'm a Baylor lifer as well. I actually attended games coached by Darrel Johnson, Harry Miller and Dave Bliss. I know that Baylor men's basketball has been worse than it currently is.

But you need to understand what the term "rock bottom" refers to in addiction recovery programs to understand the point I was making.

And again, if this season -- and especially the K-State loss -- isn't Scott Drew's rock bottom, Baylor men's basketball is headed for catastrophe. This has to be a pivot point. What we're currently doing is not only not working, it will eventually destroy everything Scott Drew has built at Baylor if we stay on this path.

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I've wiped **** off my jeans and gone from rodeo arena to watching Jim Haller's teams play. Hell, Gene Iba was a breakthrough. Michael Williams and Daryl Middleton and making the actual NCAA tournament where we lost to Memphis then state was amazing, not to mention how bad we got ****ed at Arkansas little rock in the NIT. This ain't rock bottom.

Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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That's great, sweetheart. Just keep talking, and eventually you win the nobody gives a **** filibuster. Clearly this is not actually rock bottom. But just keep going.

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If this isn't rock bottom for Scott Drew and Baylor in the context I was using, then our basketball program will be back at Harry Miller levels soon enough. We've already dropped to Dave Bliss standards this season.

That you're still posting your silly bull**** in a discussion that has largely already taken place with its intended audience on its intended terms tells me you have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation.

I'll continue to talk Baylor basketball with the few Baylor basketball diehards that still remain here and leave you football dive-bombers to your circle jerks.

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It's worse than that. I'm a Baylor lifer, and I've seen way worse than this. So I know this is not rock bottom.

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I'm a Baylor lifer as well. I actually attended games coached by Darrel Johnson, Harry Miller and Dave Bliss. I know that Baylor men's basketball has been worse than it currently is.

But you need to understand what the term "rock bottom" refers to in addiction recovery programs to understand the point I was making.

And again, if this season -- and especially the K-State loss -- isn't Scott Drew's rock bottom, Baylor men's basketball is headed for catastrophe. This has to be a pivot point. What we're currently doing is not only not working, it will eventually destroy everything Scott Drew has built at Baylor if we stay on this path.

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I've wiped **** off my jeans and gone from rodeo arena to watching Jim Haller's teams play. Hell, Gene Iba was a breakthrough. Michael Williams and Daryl Middleton and making the actual NCAA tournament where we lost to Memphis then state was amazing, not to mention how bad we got ****ed at Arkansas little rock in the NIT. This ain't rock bottom.

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And again ... and for the last time ... if this isn't Scott Drew's rock bottom, in the context I both intended and have explained now both explicitly and repeatedly, you'll get to enjoy that level of basketball again soon enough.

bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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That's great, sweetheart. Just keep talking, and eventually you win the nobody gives a **** filibuster. Clearly this is not actually rock bottom. But just keep going.

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If this isn't rock bottom for Scott Drew and Baylor in the context I was using, then our basketball program will be back at Harry Miller levels soon enough. We've already dropped to Dave Bliss standards this season.

That you're still posting your silly bull**** in a discussion that has largely already taken place with its intended audience on its intended terms tells me you have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation.

I'll continue to talk Baylor basketball with the few Baylor basketball diehards that still remain here and leave you football dive-bombers to your circle jerks.

---

It's worse than that. I'm a Baylor lifer, and I've seen way worse than this. So I know this is not rock bottom.

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I'm a Baylor lifer as well. I actually attended games coached by Darrel Johnson, Harry Miller and Dave Bliss. I know that Baylor men's basketball has been worse than it currently is.

But you need to understand what the term "rock bottom" refers to in addiction recovery programs to understand the point I was making.

And again, if this season -- and especially the K-State loss -- isn't Scott Drew's rock bottom, Baylor men's basketball is headed for catastrophe. This has to be a pivot point. What we're currently doing is not only not working, it will eventually destroy everything Scott Drew has built at Baylor if we stay on this path.

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I've wiped **** off my jeans and gone from rodeo arena to watching Jim Haller's teams play. Hell, Gene Iba was a breakthrough. Michael Williams and Daryl Middleton and making the actual NCAA tournament where we lost to Memphis then state was amazing, not to mention how bad we got ****ed at Arkansas little rock in the NIT. This ain't rock bottom.

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And again ... and for the last time ... if this isn't Scott Drew's rock bottom, you'll get to enjoy that level of basketball again soon enough.

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And for the last time… You are the cutest mother****er ever.

Brothers in Arms

Since Jan. 1, 2025, South Carolina basketball (men's), football and baseball has played a combined 88 games against power conference competition.

The record is 15-73. That means this loyal fanbase has experienced 88 gamedays and experienced a win 17 percent of the time.

The SEC…

— Inside The Gamecocks (@GamecocksShow) March 2, 2026

We are the mediocre-est of all the mediocre rock bottom

Having a heated debate about whether we're at rock bottom or whether we're almost average is another sad and depressing sign of where things are right now.

Delmar 2.0 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Brothers in Arms

Since Jan. 1, 2025, South Carolina basketball (men's), football and baseball has played a combined 88 games against power conference competition.

The record is 15-73. That means this loyal fanbase has experienced 88 gamedays and experienced a win 17 percent of the time.

The SEC…

— Inside The Gamecocks (@GamecocksShow) March 2, 2026

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By comparison, Baylor has played 91 games vs power conference competition (MBB, FB, Baseball) since 1/1/25:
their record is 36-55 (.396)

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Wow. Super sad although baseball Im guessing makes it worse.

Way better story with MBB on its own of course. This is over the last 10 years.

(Season records from Baylor's official statistical archive.)

Winning Percentage
Wins: 214
Losses: 87
Games: 301

Winning Percentage = .711 (71.1%)

JP1037 said:

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Delmar 2.0 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Brothers in Arms

Since Jan. 1, 2025, South Carolina basketball (men's), football and baseball has played a combined 88 games against power conference competition.

The record is 15-73. That means this loyal fanbase has experienced 88 gamedays and experienced a win 17 percent of the time.

The SEC…

— Inside The Gamecocks (@GamecocksShow) March 2, 2026

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By comparison, Baylor has played 91 games vs power conference competition (MBB, FB, Baseball) since 1/1/25:
their record is 36-55 (.396)

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Wow. Super sad although baseball Im guessing makes it worse.

Way better story with MBB on its own of course. This is over the last 10 years.

(Season records from Baylor's official statistical archive.)

Winning Percentage
Wins: 214
Losses: 87
Games: 301

Winning Percentage = .711 (71.1%)

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A 10-year data sample isn't terribly useful in a forward-looking discussion about the current state and future trajectory of our program. No one would argue that our program was in an excellent place from 2017-22. It's the years since that's the problem.

Over the last four years, we're .500 or worse against nine of our 15 conference opponents and have basically only had noteworthy success against the worst programs in the Big 12.

Our record against the best teams over that stretch (Houston, Iowa State and Arizona) is dismal.

There was a time not long ago that Baylor was a legit top-15 program. But that time has passed. Right now, we're not a top half program in our own conference. To fix that problem, we must first acknowledge it.

The view that we're not a top half program in our conference puts too much emphasis on this season's results. Houston, Arizona, Iowa State, Tech, Kansas, and arguably BYU are ahead of us at the moment, in terms of recent results. TCU just is not by any standard other than an annoying tendency to beat us even when we are better than them. Their best season ever was 2022-2023 and even then they were maybe barely better than our team that year (not one of our greatest). No other program is really close.

You are absolutely blitzed off of copium. Doesn't surprise me coming from the premmie side.

We hear this same bs about Aranda EVERY year

"hE'S OnE PLaY aWaY"

JP1037 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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JP1037 said:

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Delmar 2.0 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Brothers in Arms

Since Jan. 1, 2025, South Carolina basketball (men's), football and baseball has played a combined 88 games against power conference competition.

The record is 15-73. That means this loyal fanbase has experienced 88 gamedays and experienced a win 17 percent of the time.

The SEC…

— Inside The Gamecocks (@GamecocksShow) March 2, 2026

---

By comparison, Baylor has played 91 games vs power conference competition (MBB, FB, Baseball) since 1/1/25:
their record is 36-55 (.396)

---

Wow. Super sad although baseball Im guessing makes it worse.

Way better story with MBB on its own of course. This is over the last 10 years.

(Season records from Baylor's official statistical archive.)

Winning Percentage
Wins: 214
Losses: 87
Games: 301

Winning Percentage = .711 (71.1%)

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A 10-year data sample isn't terribly useful in a forward-looking discussion about the current state and future trajectory of our program. No one would argue that our program was in an excellent place from 2017-22. It's the years since that's the problem.

Over the last four years, we're .500 or worse against nine of our 15 conference opponents and have basically only had noteworthy success against the worst programs in the Big 12.

Our record against the best teams over that stretch (Houston, Iowa State and Arizona) is dismal.

There was a time not long ago that Baylor was a legit top-15 program. But that time has passed. Right now, we're not a top half program in our own conference. To fix that problem, we must first acknowledge it.

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Our bad 2024-25 season we made the NCAA tournament and finished top half of a stacked Big 12.

You have DDS. Complete clown on this issue.

Minus the Natty even. What Baylor men's sport has done better than MBB in the last 10 years.

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A 10-year sample has zero value to this discussion. Or one on football or baseball either, for that matter.

A) That's an eternity in college athletics in any era. B) The years you're citing predate NIL and the transfer portal and do nothing to account for their impact.

If there's a clown in this discussion, it's the one citing performance from 2017-2022 as evidence that our program hasn't stagnated.

But those who read or post in this forum regularly know I'm the least surprised Baylor fan on the planet by the current state of our program. I was screaming (mostly alone) about the iceberg in our path long before we hit it. And we've still done basically nothing to course correct from the factors that made our current sink to the bottom an inevitability.

It's not DDS to point out obvious ceiling- and floor-lowering issues with our program and the way it's currently being run. Particularly given that the factors I was talking about four and five years ago are now basically universally acknowledged as problems -- by everyone but those in our program, that is.

Good grief. At least I can argue with bear2be.

I'm "blitzed on copium" to believe Baylor is still a top half program in the Big 12? So we're below… who, exactly? Even if you want to argue BYU and TCU are ahead of us, that puts us squarely in 8th place. You wanna argue UCF is a better program?

And for the record, I'm not happy to be merely a top half big 12 program. I've acknowledged the need for a change in direction. All I'm arguing for is a little perspective.

BabyJBear said:

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Good grief. At least I can argue with bear2be.

I'm "blitzed on copium" to believe Baylor is still a top half program in the Big 12? So we're below… who, exactly? Even if you want to argue BYU and TCU are ahead of us, that puts us squarely in 8th place. You wanna argue UCF is a better program?

And for the record, I'm not happy to be merely a top half big 12 program. I've acknowledged the need for a change in direction. All I'm arguing for is a little perspective.

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My current hierarchy of Big 12 programs would be as follows ...

1A. Houston
1B. Arizona
3. Iowa State
4. Kansas
5. Texas Tech
6. BYU
7. TCU
8-11 (in an order I don't even care to argue). Baylor, Cincinnati, UCF and West Virginia

Based on history, we're at the top of that thoroughly mediocre foursome. But all three of those are having better seasons than we are currently, have a matching or better composite Big 12 record than we do over the past two years and have a better record against top-25 opponents than we do over that same span as well. And I would argue none have less reason than us for immediate optimism moving forward, but I suppose that can be debated.

Baylor men's basketball just has no juice right now. And it's OK to acknowledge what's objectively true. We're not going to fix it until our coaching staff acknowledges it and makes the appropriate changes to the way it's building its rosters.

BabyJBear said:

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Good grief. At least I can argue with bear2be.

I'm "blitzed on copium" to believe Baylor is still a top half program in the Big 12? So we're below… who, exactly? Even if you want to argue BYU and TCU are ahead of us, that puts us squarely in 8th place. You wanna argue UCF is a better program?

And for the record, I'm not happy to be merely a top half big 12 program. I've acknowledged the need for a change in direction. All I'm arguing for is a little perspective.

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Wearing blinders guarantees a little perspective.

We've all got em, chief, whether you can accept that or not.

Kentucky finishes 9th in the SEC standings, at 10-8. Their worst conference finish in program history.

Since the inception of the SEC in 1932, Kentucky has only finished outside of the top 5 six times.

It has happened three times since 2020, including two consecutive seasons.

— Tristan Pharis (@TristanUda) March 8, 2026

boognish_bear said:

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Kentucky finishes 9th in the SEC standings, at 10-8. Their worst conference finish in program history.

Since the inception of the SEC in 1932, Kentucky has only finished outside of the top 5 six times.

It has happened three times since 2020, including two consecutive seasons.

— Tristan Pharis (@TristanUda) March 8, 2026

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Is this the team that had a $22mm payroll?

BabyJBear said:

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We've all got em, chief, whether you can accept that or not.

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"I can see clearly now, the rain is gone."

Or, in better words, "'Twas blind, but now I see."

canoso said:

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BabyJBear said:

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We've all got em, chief, whether you can accept that or not.

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Thanks for corroborating my observation. Nobody could have done it better.

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ah I see now: you are self-aware of your own blinders and thus can account for them, in turn freeing you from them.

If only you could teach the rest of us your wisdom

Bearknuckle said:

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canoso said:

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BabyJBear said:

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We've all got em, chief, whether you can accept that or not.

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Thanks for corroborating my observation. Nobody could have done it better.

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ah I see now: you are self-aware of your own blinders and thus can account for them, in turn freeing you from them.

If only you could teach the rest of us your wisdom

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It isn't mine.

bear2be2 said:

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BabyJBear said:

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Good grief. At least I can argue with bear2be.

I'm "blitzed on copium" to believe Baylor is still a top half program in the Big 12? So we're below… who, exactly? Even if you want to argue BYU and TCU are ahead of us, that puts us squarely in 8th place. You wanna argue UCF is a better program?

And for the record, I'm not happy to be merely a top half big 12 program. I've acknowledged the need for a change in direction. All I'm arguing for is a little perspective.

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My current hierarchy of Big 12 programs would be as follows ...

1A. Houston
1B. Arizona
3. Iowa State
4. Kansas
5. Texas Tech
6. BYU
7. TCU
8-11 (in an order I don't even care to argue). Baylor, Cincinnati, UCF and West Virginia

Based on history, we're at the top of that thoroughly mediocre foursome. But all three of those are having better seasons than we are currently, have a matching or better composite Big 12 record than we do over the past two years and have a better record against top-25 opponents than we do over that same span as well. And I would argue none have less reason than us for immediate optimism moving forward, but I suppose that can be debated.

Baylor men's basketball just has no juice right now. And it's OK to acknowledge what's objectively true. We're not going to fix it until our coaching staff acknowledges it and makes the appropriate changes to the way it's building its rosters.

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Based on this year correct.

Sure glad you are here to tell Drew this year sucks. Bet he has no idea otherwise. But in the same breath he is the most successful men's coach in any sport in Baylor History.

Last year wasn't great but I'm not mad about it.

College Sports is all of a sudden a transaction. A different coach without Tech or BYU money will put us in worse position. I do welcome you to give a million to help buy a player but I doubt you are even springing for season tickets.

Focus on football. If you don't like Drew you must hate Aranda with a passion.

Thank God you have no power over our athletic department. We have waaaay bigger problems than Scott Drew.

The irony of this discussion is that if any other coach of Scott Drew's stature oversaw/experienced the same type of program decline/stagnation that Drew has at Baylor, our fans would have no issue whatsoever calling a spade a spade.

Hell, we've had people here pointing out Kansas' decline under Self for years now, and it hasn't been nearly as stark as ours has.

Our round of 32 streak lulled some of our fans into believing that everything was fine, but it's been apparent for a while now that our poor process was going to catch up with us at some point. It started to in earnest last year with a team was neither good nor fun to watch and has continued into this year with the least talented Baylor team in over a decade.

Our 3-19 record against AP top-25 teams the last two seasons (0-9 this year) tells you all you need to know about the current state and direction of our program. We've gone from a program with one of the best records in the country against quality competition to one that can't even compete with good teams in less than five year's time.

This decline won't be stopped and reversed until we acknowledge and reckon with the recruiting and roster-building decisions/mistakes we've made that have put us here. And it doesn't make anyone a bad fan for saying so.