JP1037 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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JP1037 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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JP1037 said:

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guadalupeoso said:

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Actually rock bottom was when that one guy on our team killed the other guy.

Look, I'm not saying Scott Drew is going to turn us into perennial national champions. But he will get this ship righted. He's done it before, under much harder circumstances. And to think he's mailing it in and just accepting a paycheck is to be willfully ignorant of his personality and everything we have learned about him as head coach FOR OVER 20 YEARS. He's an extreme competitor and for the most part, forward thinker.

If we were to listen to some of you on here and run him off, he would end up at a "bigger" program within 18 months. Like whittingham to Michigan.

Him turning our program into a national title winner is literally, no hyperbole, the greatest turnaround in the history of college athletics. It's even more amazing than what Curt Cignetti just did. And for that, he will have my loyalty. Obviously some things need to change and we've been heading in a disappointing direction, but Y'all need some perspective.

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100% correct.

Drew is a National Championship coach. He has won the Big 12 twice. He has been to the NCAA tournament 13 times. Baylor had been to the NCAA tournament 1 time, yes once, since 1950 prior to Drew. You want to fire him? We would be a laughing stock of the sports world. No one with an ounce of understanding of sports would suggest this.

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And only about two people (neither of them regular posters on this basketball board) have suggested firing Drew, so maybe spare the rest of us the feigned outrage.

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"He needs to either figure out how to build a roster in this era or hand the program over to someone who can."

Ok whatever you say sports Einstein. You are the clown who started this thread.

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That would imply that he has additional time to figure it out -- a fact apparent to anyone with half a brain.

But I've explicitly said both in this thread and elsewhere on this board that his track record has bought him an extended leash of two more years after this one before I would call for his firing. You might know that if you weren't just ducking in every now and again to white knight to us poors.

Now head on back to the pay board. Your work here is done.

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Pretty sure I don't need your permission to post here. I was on the free board for years and BaylorFans before that.

Nut jobs fools making passive aggressive comments that Drew needs to move on or outright calling for his job will get my two cents paid or free board.

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You don't really make much sense. You just don't. How can you divine someone as being "passive aggressive" or not. I for one will call for Drew's ouster at the end of next year if he fails to get it back on the right track, which means he has a losing or .500 record next year. You can call it whatever you want, and I have a feeling none of us care. But I'm not really saying this passively, nor aggressively. I'm saying it in a " getting really tired of players that don't really come to play" kind of way. And by "don't come to play," I mean those who are statues on defense who simply wait around to try once they go back on offense.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Quinton said:

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Critical part though.. who is doing the "moneyball" evals. They've missed a lot on the biggest paid guys.

Anybody can fill out a spreadsheet and run some analytics.. doesn't make it money ball.

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Sadly in the NIL era I no longer have confidence in our staff to consistently recruit and retain the kind of players who fit our culture.

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Of course they can't. Our culture was never to pay college kids millions to be here. NIL is the opposite of JOY.

Guitarbiscuit said:

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JP1037 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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JP1037 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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JP1037 said:

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guadalupeoso said:

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Actually rock bottom was when that one guy on our team killed the other guy.

Look, I'm not saying Scott Drew is going to turn us into perennial national champions. But he will get this ship righted. He's done it before, under much harder circumstances. And to think he's mailing it in and just accepting a paycheck is to be willfully ignorant of his personality and everything we have learned about him as head coach FOR OVER 20 YEARS. He's an extreme competitor and for the most part, forward thinker.

If we were to listen to some of you on here and run him off, he would end up at a "bigger" program within 18 months. Like whittingham to Michigan.

Him turning our program into a national title winner is literally, no hyperbole, the greatest turnaround in the history of college athletics. It's even more amazing than what Curt Cignetti just did. And for that, he will have my loyalty. Obviously some things need to change and we've been heading in a disappointing direction, but Y'all need some perspective.

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100% correct.

Drew is a National Championship coach. He has won the Big 12 twice. He has been to the NCAA tournament 13 times. Baylor had been to the NCAA tournament 1 time, yes once, since 1950 prior to Drew. You want to fire him? We would be a laughing stock of the sports world. No one with an ounce of understanding of sports would suggest this.

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And only about two people (neither of them regular posters on this basketball board) have suggested firing Drew, so maybe spare the rest of us the feigned outrage.

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"He needs to either figure out how to build a roster in this era or hand the program over to someone who can."

Ok whatever you say sports Einstein. You are the clown who started this thread.

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That would imply that he has additional time to figure it out -- a fact apparent to anyone with half a brain.

But I've explicitly said both in this thread and elsewhere on this board that his track record has bought him an extended leash of two more years after this one before I would call for his firing. You might know that if you weren't just ducking in every now and again to white knight to us poors.

Now head on back to the pay board. Your work here is done.

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Pretty sure I don't need your permission to post here. I was on the free board for years and BaylorFans before that.

Nut jobs fools making passive aggressive comments that Drew needs to move on or outright calling for his job will get my two cents paid or free board.

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You don't really make much sense. You just don't. How can you divine someone as being "passive aggressive" or not. I for one will call for Drew's ouster at the end of next year if he fails to get it back on the right track, which means he has a losing or .500 record next year. You can call it whatever you want, and I have a feeling none of us care. But I'm not really saying this passively, nor aggressively. I'm saying it in a " getting really tired of players that don't really come to play" kind of way. And by "don't come to play," I mean those who are statues on defense who simply wait around to try once they go back on offense.

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There needs to be a cut in compensation. Top 10 salaried coach should not have a below .500 record for any reason...

Not saying it's gonna happen. But I would take a sub .500 conference record next year if it meant we were back to developing diamonds in the rough who would stick around 2 or 3 years. Even if it meant taking a step back next year.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Not saying it's gonna happen. But I would take a sub .500 conference record next year if it meant we were back to developing diamonds in the rough who would stick around 2 or 3 years. Even if it meant taking a step back next year.

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I said this same thing last year. I'm not opposed to a reset year if we actually hit the reset button. But we just hit the pause button this past offseason and drifted even farther out to the sea of irrelevance as a result.

At some point, we have to question whether our staff has any intention of ever bringing this program back to the principles that made it successful in the first place. And if they don't, some really tough conversations need to take place.

What we're doing isn't working, and everyone knows it. To continue doing these same things while our program just stagnates more every year is crazy to me. Either try something different or leave. Because this treadmill is not only not a path to present or future success, it's not fun to watch or follow.

Being a fan of Baylor men's basketball absolutely sucks right now. And it's sapping any joy I get from college basketball, in general. I've watched less this year than I ever have because I can't bear to watch other programs excel while ours rots on the vine.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Not saying it's gonna happen. But I would take a sub .500 conference record next year if it meant we were back to developing diamonds in the rough who would stick around 2 or 3 years. Even if it meant taking a step back next year.

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As would I. For me, a philosophical change in recruitment shows a positive step regardless of record.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Even if it meant taking a step back next year.

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I think we already took those steps. We don't have many more backward steps to take. We're already 2 from the bottom.

Big12Fan2024 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Even if it meant taking a step back next year.

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I think we already took those steps. We don't have many more backward steps to take. We're already 2 from the bottom.

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This is why it's still important for me that we keep as many holdovers from this roster as we can. If we're starting over again after this year, literally nothing was gained from this **** stain of a season.

If Williams, Perez, Nnaji, Bodo Bodo, Iguodala and Soyoye -- and potentially even Agbim and White -- return, we'll at least be inching toward building something again and will have some nucleus (meager though it may be) to build around when we start our preparation for 2026-27.

But if we're right back starting from scratch again after this, what the hell are we even doing at this point? What is the plan here and why should fans invest in this program at all going forward?

And to those who would say, "Why would we want those players back?" I'd say because because players get better when they stay in a program and develop. And if we don't get back to keeping players in our program and developing them, we'll never get off this treadmill we're on. I'd rather start here with this group ... even if it means struggling again next year than reshuffle the deck once again and just hoping we get better cards next time.

Big12Fan2024 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Even if it meant taking a step back next year.

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I think we already took those steps. We don't have many more backward steps to take. We're already 2 from the bottom.

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I see your humorous point, but it appears the backward steps we have taken in the past year are backward steps with no real future vision, or accidental backward steps. Those are the kind of steps I don't like.

If the backward steps begin to have meaning (ie a change in recruiting or coaching philosophy that requires time), then I'm all for it.

But CSD's backward steps, at least at this time, have us on the train to nowhere.

bear2be2 said:

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Big12Fan2024 said:

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Crawfoso1973 said:

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Even if it meant taking a step back next year.

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I think we already took those steps. We don't have many more backward steps to take. We're already 2 from the bottom.

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This is why it's still important for me that we keep as many holdovers from this roster as we can. If we're starting over again after this year, literally nothing was gained from this **** stain of a season.

If Williams, Perez, Nnaji, Bodo Bodo, Iguodala and Soyoye -- and potentially even Agbim and White -- return, we'll at least be inching toward building something again and will have some nucleus (meager though it may be) to build around when we start our preparation for 2026-27.

But if we're right back starting from scratch again after this, what the hell are we even doing at this point. What is the plan here and why should fans invest in this program at all going forward?

And to those who would say, "Why would we want those players back?" I'd say because because players get better when they stay in a program and develop. And if we don't get back to keeping players in our program and developing them, we'll never get off this treadmill we're on. I'd rather start here with this group ... even if it means struggling again next year than reshuffling the deck once again and just hoping we get better cards next time.

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You're right. There comes a point when the merry go 'round needs to stop. And this is as good a time as any. I've seen teams with worse talent than this become capable teams.

If CSD has only one or 2 returning starters next year, then we'll know for sure that he has not learned his lesson yet.

Aren't we already down to pretty much only 1 or 2 starters returning?

Powell - no more eligibility
Carr - seems to be headed to NBA
Yessoufou - seems to be headed to NBA
Agbim - no more eligibility unless they affirm the JUCO ruling
Williams - assume returning for now

Big12Fan2024 said:

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Aren't we already down to pretty much only 1 or 2 starters returning?

Powell - no more eligibility
Carr - seems to be headed to NBA
Yessoufou - seems to be headed to NBA
Agbim - no more eligibility unless they affirm the JUCO ruling
Williams - assume returning for now

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I guess you're right.

Big12Fan2024 said:

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Aren't we already down to pretty much only 1 or 2 starters returning?

Powell - no more eligibility
Carr - seems to be headed to NBA
Yessoufou - seems to be headed to NBA
Agbim - no more eligibility unless they affirm the JUCO ruling
Williams - assume returning for now

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My goal is to get to a place where we're returning five potential rotation players every year. That's a nucleus you can build around.

These returners don't all need to be starters. They just have to be guys we can conceivably pencil into the rotation when we start shopping for potential difference-makers in the portal.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Not saying it's gonna happen. But I would take a sub .500 conference record next year if it meant we were back to developing diamonds in the rough who would stick around 2 or 3 years. Even if it meant taking a step back next year.

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Taking a step back next year would be bad. This needs to be the bottom. The league is going to change quite a bit starting next year. Iowa St will come back to earth baring something crazy, Sampson will finally have to reset, KU will try to reload, AZ has a good blend but could lose much of their core, and Tech loses both of their best guys (probably).

Drew should have been position to take advantage.. yet he stayed on the treadmill while probably losing his only 2 players that are standout big 12 quality. Its a worst case scenario playing out. Need a huge hit on a few 2 year transfers and need 1 elite guy. That's assuming retaining both bigs, Williams, Perez, and all the redshirts. That should be enough to be competitive.

You're probably underestimating Otz. Doubt ISzu drops off that much. They'll bring back one of the better players in the B12 and roster retention is Otz's strength. Drew needs to be copying exactly what he's doing roster wise

They'll be solid I assume. But they won't be blowing out a Purdue on the road. It's just the nature of the game.

Iowa st and Houston retained and rode a nice core for years.. that's a good thing. But seasons change.

I still expect both to be solid

bear2be2 said:

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guadalupeoso said:

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Actually rock bottom was when that one guy on our team killed the other guy.

Look, I'm not saying Scott Drew is going to turn us into perennial national champions. But he will get this ship righted. He's done it before, under much harder circumstances. And to think he's mailing it in and just accepting a paycheck is to be willfully ignorant of his personality and everything we have learned about him as head coach FOR OVER 20 YEARS. He's an extreme competitor and for the most part, forward thinker.

If we were to listen to some of you on here and run him off, he would end up at a "bigger" program within 18 months. Like whittingham to Michigan.

Him turning our program into a national title winner is literally, no hyperbole, the greatest turnaround in the history of college athletics. It's even more amazing than what Curt Cignetti just did. And for that, he will have my loyalty. Obviously some things need to change and we've been heading in a disappointing direction, but Y'all need some perspective.

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I don't think it's unreasonable to set our baseline expectations and standards above a once-in-forever set of circumstances that ended in murder and a massive (failed) cheating conspiracy.

Another such scandal would justifiably end Baylor athletics forever, so I feel no need to even entertain it as a forward-looking possibility.

But for a post-scandal environment, which is the one I'm operating in, this season is literally as bad as it can get. We could conceivably have a slightly worse record, but it wouldn't matter at all because once you're terrible, degrees don't really matter. And we are terrible right now with no rational reasons for optimism in the immediate forecast. People can say "Scott will get this ship righted," but that's just hope and cope until something actually changes.

The Baylor basketball program flat sucks right now. There is no rosier picture to be painted.

Scott Drew deserves every accolade for what he did at Baylor. He also deserves every criticism for what he is doing currently. If I were a fan of a blue blood program, there is no way in hell I would want to hire Scott Drew based on his post-title performance.

While Drew's entire body of work has earned him legend status --- at Baylor and across the college basketball landscape -- I don't even think he's a good college basketball coach in 2026, much less an elite one. And after the last two seasons -- one mediocre by every standard and the other awful -- the onus is on him to prove me wrong.

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Agree to disagree. I don't think you can separate Scott Drew from that context. And when we are talking about "he needs to either completely change or hand the program off to someone else", that implies ultimatum, which implies a third option - he does neither of those things and thus deserves to be fired. I disagree with that.

I agree with you and others that our program needs to make some changes and re-evaluate some of their processes. But I actually think we have been victims of circumstance as much as anything. I've explored it in another post, but some of our roster construction issues I think have been due to actually guys turning out better than expected more quickly and being drafted or poached. Several of our most important coaching staff pieces have either taken head coaching jobs or promotions at other programs. Admittedly, Scott Drew has made some misfires in replacing them. But it's hard to do, especially when many of them were with him for years.

Scott Drew has never been seen as an elite x's and o's coach or an elite basketball mind. His greatest strength is his ability to build a culture and surround himself with the right people to turn that culture into great basketball. Right now, that is not happening. But I don't believe for a second that Scott Drew has simply forgotten how to do it or won't be able to get us back to that place. I am choosing to view my opinion of where we will go based on the last 23 years as a whole, rather than on the last 4 years in a vacuum. I could definitely end up with egg on my face, but I just have not hit any sort of feeling of "rock bottom."

guadalupeoso said:

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bear2be2 said:

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guadalupeoso said:

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Actually rock bottom was when that one guy on our team killed the other guy.

Look, I'm not saying Scott Drew is going to turn us into perennial national champions. But he will get this ship righted. He's done it before, under much harder circumstances. And to think he's mailing it in and just accepting a paycheck is to be willfully ignorant of his personality and everything we have learned about him as head coach FOR OVER 20 YEARS. He's an extreme competitor and for the most part, forward thinker.

If we were to listen to some of you on here and run him off, he would end up at a "bigger" program within 18 months. Like whittingham to Michigan.

Him turning our program into a national title winner is literally, no hyperbole, the greatest turnaround in the history of college athletics. It's even more amazing than what Curt Cignetti just did. And for that, he will have my loyalty. Obviously some things need to change and we've been heading in a disappointing direction, but Y'all need some perspective.

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I don't think it's unreasonable to set our baseline expectations and standards above a once-in-forever set of circumstances that ended in murder and a massive (failed) cheating conspiracy.

Another such scandal would justifiably end Baylor athletics forever, so I feel no need to even entertain it as a forward-looking possibility.

But for a post-scandal environment, which is the one I'm operating in, this season is literally as bad as it can get. We could conceivably have a slightly worse record, but it wouldn't matter at all because once you're terrible, degrees don't really matter. And we are terrible right now with no rational reasons for optimism in the immediate forecast. People can say "Scott will get this ship righted," but that's just hope and cope until something actually changes.

The Baylor basketball program flat sucks right now. There is no rosier picture to be painted.

Scott Drew deserves every accolade for what he did at Baylor. He also deserves every criticism for what he is doing currently. If I were a fan of a blue blood program, there is no way in hell I would want to hire Scott Drew based on his post-title performance.

While Drew's entire body of work has earned him legend status --- at Baylor and across the college basketball landscape -- I don't even think he's a good college basketball coach in 2026, much less an elite one. And after the last two seasons -- one mediocre by every standard and the other awful -- the onus is on him to prove me wrong.

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Agree to disagree. I don't think you can separate Scott Drew from that context. And when we are talking about "he needs to either completely change or hand the program off to someone else", that implies ultimatum, which implies a third option - he does neither of those things and thus deserves to be fired. I disagree with that.

I agree with you and others that our program needs to make some changes and re-evaluate some of their processes. But I actually think we have been victims of circumstance as much as anything. I've explored it in another post, but some of our roster construction issues I think have been due to actually guys turning out better than expected more quickly and being drafted or poached. Several of our most important coaching staff pieces have either taken head coaching jobs or promotions at other programs. Admittedly, Scott Drew has made some misfires in replacing them. But it's hard to do, especially when many of them were with him for years.

Scott Drew has never been seen as an elite x's and o's coach or an elite basketball mind. His greatest strength is his ability to build a culture and surround himself with the right people to turn that culture into great basketball. Right now, that is not happening. But I don't believe for a second that Scott Drew has simply forgotten how to do it or won't be able to get us back to that place. I am choosing to view my opinion of where we will go based on the last 23 years as a whole, rather than on the last 4 years in a vacuum. I could definitely end up with egg on my face, but I just have not hit any sort of feeling of "rock bottom."

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Scott Drew's track record has bought him extra time to try to right the ship, but if we stay on this current trajectory another couple of years, there needs to be an ultimatum.

It's not just our team that's bad right now. Our entire program has stagnated -- to the point that we're behind a number of mid Big 12 programs we were mud-holing regularly just a few short years ago.

Something needs to change. I would prefer that Scott Drew lead that change in a direction that brings our program back to its developmental roots. But if he can't or won't, he either needs to retire or be encouraged to take another job so he doesn't have to be fired.

But if we continue on our current path, Drew will destroy everything he's built at Baylor (not the achievements or memories, but the overall progress), and we'll be right back at square one when it's time to replace him.

BabyJBear said:

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Drew and his staff have absolutely faced some tough circumstances. Other programs have too. No question we are in a rut.

That said, I also prefer to take the long view. We've faced a brutal schedule in the toughest big 12 ever. In a "normal" year this team would be closer to .500 even with the injuries. Without the injuries, we're probably a tourney team, even with Rataj's deficiencies.

Last night was the first time in a couple years I saw us play the brand of basketball that helped us win a title. There were defensive lapses down the stretch, but for 95% of the game we were tough, fearless, and relentless attacking the paint. Arizona had to fight to get that win.

Drew has said this team is way more of a brotherhood than last year's team. I want to see us build around this core, even if it means barely squeaking into the tourney next year. All college basketball fans are craving continuity from their programswhen you roll the dice on a total rebuild and get lucky like UCF, it can feel good for a year, but it's empty calories if it leaves you with no foundation for the future. Personally, I want to see Drew abandon the win now mentality and go all in on culture and continuity. The good will he's earned puts him in the perfect position to take that approach.

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I agree with your last paragraph completely. And it's not like UCF, which is having a great season by its standards, is likely to do anything really substantial this year. They'll get into the tournament as a six or seven seed and likely lose in the round of 32. In other words, they'll look a lot like our 23 and 24 teams.

If you really want to build something special, you have to BUILD something. We've got to get back to building.

Perfect post. No notes.

Art_E_Guinn said:

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True Grit said:

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I'm starting to wonder what Linda and the BOR are thinking at this point. Is there even a review/audit of the different departments? What's the turnaround plan? Poor Doug has a lot of work to do, and he's focused on fan engagement right now. Our fans won't show up for this garbage.

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Absolutely wild that Linda "Loveless" Livingstone and the "Bored" Board of Regents haven't fired Scott Drew by now. What a disgrace. What is she thinking? Remember when this program was once respected? I miss having a hall of famer like Coach Iba (I've been to the Hall of Fame and I definitely recall seeing Coach Iba's name listed) as the Bears ripped and clawed through opponents on their way to that one NCAA Tournament.

Kids, you'd be surprised to know that Baylor used to take basketball seriously in the good old days when an elite Bible salesman named Tom Stanton accepted Baylor's athletic director job, a role he was totally qualified and ready for. Baylor basketball was "HOT HOT HOT" back then. Everyone remembers where they were in December of 1992 when Baylor received a then-record 7 votes in the AP Top 25 poll.

After Coach Iba stepped down, they actually somehow convinced a 2x national champion coach (at the NAIA level which is basically one tiny step below NCAA) to leave powerhouse Oklahoma City University to come to Baylor. He was fired after a few years for paying players and having assistant coaches do their homework, but that was mostly phony fake news manufactured by the liberal Waco media.

The point is that coaches DESPERATELY wanted the Baylor job. They somehow lured one of the most respected coaches in all of Central Texas, Harry Miller, away from juggernaut Temple High School to Baylor. And even if he'd said no, they had Vanguard's middle school boys head basketball coach, who had a 90+% winning percentage at the time, on standby ready to take the job.

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Well played!

guadalupeoso said:

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Actually rock bottom was when that one guy on our team killed the other guy.

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Exactly. Anyone who thinks this is rock bottom doesn't know anything about the history (or non-history) of Baylor basketball.

EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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guadalupeoso said:

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Actually rock bottom was when that one guy on our team killed the other guy.

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Exactly. Anyone who thinks this is rock bottom doesn't know anything about the history (or non-history) of Baylor basketball.

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I already explained above that we're talking about a post-scandal reality. Continuing to talk as though another Bliss-level catastrophe is a forward-looking possibility is silly. A) Contrary to the opinions of some here, we actually run a real Division I athletic program now with real resources and actual compliance people in place. And B) another scandal of that type and magnitude would literally end Baylor athletics for good.

So I'm not going to judge Scott Drew's program or that of any of his successors on a "well at least no one killed somebody" curve. If that's the standard, there's no standard at all.

I'm going to judge Scott Drew's program the same way I would any of his peers across our conference and the country. And if any other coach with his track record had the type of season we're currently experiencing, I would call it an abject disaster.

By the standard that Scott Drew has built at Baylor, this season is rock bottom. We could conceivably post a slightly worse record, but when you're bad, you're bad. And outside of about five or six games this season, this team has just been bad.

Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

Robert Wilson said:

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Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

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Not realizing that you have more "scholarship" players than available scholarships does. And that's literally all it would have taken to realize that your coach was running a Mickey Mouse program/cheating scheme and firing his ass before the **** really hit the fan.

bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

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Not realizing that you have more "scholarship" players than scholarships does. And that's literally all it would have taken to realize that your coach was running a Mickey Mouse program and firing his ass before the **** really hit the fan.

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And would have kept Carlton Dotson from…?

**** an elementary school kid could've counted students versus scholarship. Do you think he would've prevented the murder?

Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

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Not realizing that you have more "scholarship" players than scholarships does. And that's literally all it would have taken to realize that your coach was running a Mickey Mouse program and firing his ass before the **** really hit the fan.

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And would have kept Carlton Dotson from…?

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If Dave Bliss wasn't our coach, Carlton Dotson is likely not on our roster. And if we had compliance folks in our program who could count scholarships, Patrick Dennehy would have never been in Waco to get murdered.

But Carlton Dotson being mentally ill -- or even a murderer -- wasn't on Baylor. That could happen anywhere. The parts of our scandal that were on Baylor -- and that resulted in sanctions -- were 100 percent avoidable by having people who knew what the **** they were doing in administrative positions.

bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

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Not realizing that you have more "scholarship" players than scholarships does. And that's literally all it would have taken to realize that your coach was running a Mickey Mouse program and firing his ass before the **** really hit the fan.

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And would have kept Carlton Dotson from…?

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If Dave Bliss wasn't our coach, Carlton Dotson is likely not on our roster.

But Carlton Dotson being mentally ill or even a murderer wasn't on Baylor. That could happen anywhere. The parts of our scandal that -- and that resulted in sanctions -- were on Baylor were 100 percent avoidable by having people who knew what the **** they were doing in administrative positions.

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100% agree that Dotson mentally ill and killing his roommate was not on Baylor. Also agree that Baylor should've had enough sense to not have too many people on scholarship. But without the murder, what would the penalty for that have been? You're completely blowing through the human reality of what happened there.

We were stupid and sloppy, but we were also largely the beneficiary of some really bad luck.

To this day, I hear Baylor people say that Dave Bliss covered up a murder. That's not true at all, but that's what people say, and that's what most people believe. Not dissimilar from the art briles thing. (hell or even the Jeffrey Epstein thing) But without the pure bad luck of a murder, having Dave Bliss cover a transfer player over the scholarship limit doesn't really amount to much of anything.

Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

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Not realizing that you have more "scholarship" players than scholarships does. And that's literally all it would have taken to realize that your coach was running a Mickey Mouse program and firing his ass before the **** really hit the fan.

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And would have kept Carlton Dotson from…?

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If Dave Bliss wasn't our coach, Carlton Dotson is likely not on our roster.

But Carlton Dotson being mentally ill or even a murderer wasn't on Baylor. That could happen anywhere. The parts of our scandal that -- and that resulted in sanctions -- were on Baylor were 100 percent avoidable by having people who knew what the **** they were doing in administrative positions.

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100% agree that Dotson mentally ill and killing his roommate was not on Baylor. Also agree that Baylor should've had enough sense to not have too many people on scholarship. But without the murder, what would the penalty for that have been? You're completely blowing through the human reality of what happened there.

We were stupid and sloppy, but we were also largely the beneficiary of some really bad luck.

To this day, I hear Baylor people say that Dave Bliss covered up a murder. That's not true at all, but that's what people say, and that's what most people believe. Not dissimilar from the art briles thing. (hell or even the Jeffrey Epstein thing) But without the pure bad luck of a murder, having Dave Bliss cover a transfer player over the scholarship limit doesn't really amount to much of anything.

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I'm not blowing through the human reality. There was a murder, and murder is always a tragedy, regardless of the circumstances.

But when judging a basketball program's current status and future, I'm not going to use a once-in-forever tragedy as the baseline for forward-looking expectations. That's stupid.

Because again, if we're grading on a "well at least there was no murder" curve, then there's no point in giving grades at all.

This is a basketball thread. About a basketball team. I'm going to judge our basketball coach, team and program on the same scale that I judge every other. And not only is the Bliss scandal ancient history in regards to Baylor basketball, it's completely irrelevant to the current and future standards of our program.

It's a part of our history that we'll have to reckon and live with. But that's about it at this point. It has no place in any forward-looking basketball discussion.

bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Robert Wilson said:

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Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

---

Not realizing that you have more "scholarship" players than scholarships does. And that's literally all it would have taken to realize that your coach was running a Mickey Mouse program and firing his ass before the **** really hit the fan.

---

And would have kept Carlton Dotson from…?

---

If Dave Bliss wasn't our coach, Carlton Dotson is likely not on our roster.

But Carlton Dotson being mentally ill or even a murderer wasn't on Baylor. That could happen anywhere. The parts of our scandal that -- and that resulted in sanctions -- were on Baylor were 100 percent avoidable by having people who knew what the **** they were doing in administrative positions.

---

100% agree that Dotson mentally ill and killing his roommate was not on Baylor. Also agree that Baylor should've had enough sense to not have too many people on scholarship. But without the murder, what would the penalty for that have been? You're completely blowing through the human reality of what happened there.

We were stupid and sloppy, but we were also largely the beneficiary of some really bad luck.

To this day, I hear Baylor people say that Dave Bliss covered up a murder. That's not true at all, but that's what people say, and that's what most people believe. Not dissimilar from the art briles thing. (hell or even the Jeffrey Epstein thing) But without the pure bad luck of a murder, having Dave Bliss cover a transfer player over the scholarship limit doesn't really amount to much of anything.

---

I'm not blowing through the human reality. There was a murder, and murder is always a tragedy, regardless of the circumstances.

But when judging a basketball program's current status and future, I'm not going to use a once-in-forever tragedy as the baseline for forward-looking expectations. That's stupid.

Because again, if we're grading on a "well at lest there was no murder" curve, then there's no point in giving grades at all.

This is a basketball thread. About a basketball team. I'm going to judge our basketball coach, team and program on the same scale that I judge every other. And not only is the Bliss scandal ancient history in regards to Baylor basketball, it's completely irrelevant to the current and future standards of our program.

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Lmao

Then you chose your language poorly

Because everyone here knows this ain't rock bottom

Hell, I watched Harry Miller go 0-16 in the late 90s.

Robert Wilson said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Robert Wilson said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Robert Wilson said:

---

Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

---

Not realizing that you have more "scholarship" players than scholarships does. And that's literally all it would have taken to realize that your coach was running a Mickey Mouse program and firing his ass before the **** really hit the fan.

---

And would have kept Carlton Dotson from…?

---

If Dave Bliss wasn't our coach, Carlton Dotson is likely not on our roster.

But Carlton Dotson being mentally ill or even a murderer wasn't on Baylor. That could happen anywhere. The parts of our scandal that -- and that resulted in sanctions -- were on Baylor were 100 percent avoidable by having people who knew what the **** they were doing in administrative positions.

---

100% agree that Dotson mentally ill and killing his roommate was not on Baylor. Also agree that Baylor should've had enough sense to not have too many people on scholarship. But without the murder, what would the penalty for that have been? You're completely blowing through the human reality of what happened there.

We were stupid and sloppy, but we were also largely the beneficiary of some really bad luck.

To this day, I hear Baylor people say that Dave Bliss covered up a murder. That's not true at all, but that's what people say, and that's what most people believe. Not dissimilar from the art briles thing. (hell or even the Jeffrey Epstein thing) But without the pure bad luck of a murder, having Dave Bliss cover a transfer player over the scholarship limit doesn't really amount to much of anything.

---

I'm not blowing through the human reality. There was a murder, and murder is always a tragedy, regardless of the circumstances.

But when judging a basketball program's current status and future, I'm not going to use a once-in-forever tragedy as the baseline for forward-looking expectations. That's stupid.

Because again, if we're grading on a "well at lest there was no murder" curve, then there's no point in giving grades at all.

This is a basketball thread. About a basketball team. I'm going to judge our basketball coach, team and program on the same scale that I judge every other. And not only is the Bliss scandal ancient history in regards to Baylor basketball, it's completely irrelevant to the current and future standards of our program.

---

Lmao

Then you chose your language poorly

Because everyone here knows this ain't rock bottom

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I don't know how to make it any clearer I'm living and operating in a post-scandal environment. By post-scandal standards, getting your **** pushed in by the worst team in your conference, who happens to have no head coach at the time, is absolutely as bad as it gets. From a basketball standpoint, it can't get worse than that for a program that was competing for national championships a half-decade ago.

Y'all can play whatever semantic games you want. I'm going to continue living in 2026, not 2002. And I'm damn sure not going to use anything that happened before any of our players were born -- and will never happen again -- to excuse or minimize the disastrous tumble our program has taken in five year's time.

bear2be2 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Robert Wilson said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Robert Wilson said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Robert Wilson said:

---

Somebody having a schizophrenic break and killing his roommate does not get fixed by "compliance people." **** sake.

---

Not realizing that you have more "scholarship" players than scholarships does. And that's literally all it would have taken to realize that your coach was running a Mickey Mouse program and firing his ass before the **** really hit the fan.

---

And would have kept Carlton Dotson from…?

---

If Dave Bliss wasn't our coach, Carlton Dotson is likely not on our roster.

But Carlton Dotson being mentally ill or even a murderer wasn't on Baylor. That could happen anywhere. The parts of our scandal that -- and that resulted in sanctions -- were on Baylor were 100 percent avoidable by having people who knew what the **** they were doing in administrative positions.

---

100% agree that Dotson mentally ill and killing his roommate was not on Baylor. Also agree that Baylor should've had enough sense to not have too many people on scholarship. But without the murder, what would the penalty for that have been? You're completely blowing through the human reality of what happened there.

We were stupid and sloppy, but we were also largely the beneficiary of some really bad luck.

To this day, I hear Baylor people say that Dave Bliss covered up a murder. That's not true at all, but that's what people say, and that's what most people believe. Not dissimilar from the art briles thing. (hell or even the Jeffrey Epstein thing) But without the pure bad luck of a murder, having Dave Bliss cover a transfer player over the scholarship limit doesn't really amount to much of anything.

---

I'm not blowing through the human reality. There was a murder, and murder is always a tragedy, regardless of the circumstances.

But when judging a basketball program's current status and future, I'm not going to use a once-in-forever tragedy as the baseline for forward-looking expectations. That's stupid.

Because again, if we're grading on a "well at lest there was no murder" curve, then there's no point in giving grades at all.

This is a basketball thread. About a basketball team. I'm going to judge our basketball coach, team and program on the same scale that I judge every other. And not only is the Bliss scandal ancient history in regards to Baylor basketball, it's completely irrelevant to the current and future standards of our program.

---

Lmao

Then you chose your language poorly

Because everyone here knows this ain't rock bottom

---

I don't know how to make it any clearer I'm living and operating in a post-scandal environment. By post-scandal standards, getting your **** pushed in by the worst team in your conference, who happens to have no head coach at the time, is absolutely as bad as it gets. From a basketball standpoint, it can't get worse than that for a program that was competing for national championships a half-decade ago.

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Harry Miller went 0-16 in the big 12 in the late 90s. That didn't have **** to do with the murder. It actually pre dated it.

We've been way worse than this in basketball many many many times throughout our history. This ain't rock-bottom. Not even close.

This is the equivalent of comparing Dave Aranda to Kevin Steele.

Gene iba and Jim haller each went 1-15 in the old swc for **** sake. This is all just based on things I remember. We've probably been even worse than that.