"Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that"


Your declaration "real event" has no proof. Show me your proof..

Waco1947 said:

---

"Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that"


Your declaration "real event" has no proof. Show me your proof..

---

you're old enough and should be smart enough to know the difference in proof vs evidence.

You cannot provide me proof that everything you have experienced isn't a dream.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, here is our exchange from the other thread. I think this exchange is pretty clear you answered yes to the question of whether you believe that Jesus is a physical person or entity alive at this moment.

Me:

"Can you please provide a "yes" or "no" response to these 2 questions?


1. Do you mean the Jesus of the bible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?

2.In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?

Thanks."

You:

"Yes and yes."

---

My apologies. Thank you for tracking it down I misunderstood your questions.
1. Do you mean the Jesus of thbible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?
A. Yes, Jesus is alive at this moment spiritually
2. In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?
B. I thought you were talking about humans in general not Jesus in particular. I totally misread "entity."
An entity to me in the moment I read it was Jesus is an entity' as in any particular form such as spirit.
Again my apologies. It was a misreading of your question.
Jesus is spirit and as spirit is alive today.

---

Thanks for the clarification. So you believe a "spirit" exists. By spirit, do you mean an actual thinking and feeling being that simply does not have a tangible physical form? If so, how do you reconcile that belief with the laws of nature? Do you have any scientific evidence a spirit exists?

Wouldn't the existence of a "spirit" be supernatural in nature?

---

My understanding of his belief is that the supernatural realm does exist, i.e. the spirit, and that is the only realm in which God has power or influence. He doesn't believe God is "supernatural" in the sense that He doesn't have power to influence the physical universe. Of course, that would make the other beliefs in his theology contradictory or nonsensical (let alone egregiously non-biblical, which he remedies with egregiously bad exegesis and eisegesis).

---

Indeed, a very odd and contradictory set of beliefs. So, there is a spirit world where God exists that isn't supernatural - like another dimension or something? And in that world, God has certain powers, but they're not supernatural?

Very very odd. There is no logic to it at all.

---

Don't put words in my mouth. God is spirit and transcendent in love, justice for the poor, grace which does not mean supernatural. Your love for your wife or SO is not supernatural but real and transcends time and distance just like God

---

Warmth can be measured,

Fuzzy is a description of texture: reporting on an observation

Therefore: 47's Warm and Fuzzy theology is science. 47 has scientifically proven his god.

---

The love of my savior was not fuzzy. It was a cruel, inhuman death.

Waco1947 said:

---

"Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that"


Your declaration "real event" has no proof. Show me your proof..

---

So you demand God follow your rules, meet your conditions.

And you are ducking the fact that if you reject one part of Scripture, you cannot depend on any of it.

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, here is our exchange from the other thread. I think this exchange is pretty clear you answered yes to the question of whether you believe that Jesus is a physical person or entity alive at this moment.

Me:

"Can you please provide a "yes" or "no" response to these 2 questions?


1. Do you mean the Jesus of the bible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?

2.In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?

Thanks."

You:

"Yes and yes."

---

My apologies. Thank you for tracking it down I misunderstood your questions.
1. Do you mean the Jesus of thbible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?
A. Yes, Jesus is alive at this moment spiritually
2. In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?
B. I thought you were talking about humans in general not Jesus in particular. I totally misread "entity."
An entity to me in the moment I read it was Jesus is an entity' as in any particular form such as spirit.
Again my apologies. It was a misreading of your question.
Jesus is spirit and as spirit is alive today.

---

Thanks for the clarification. So you believe a "spirit" exists. By spirit, do you mean an actual thinking and feeling being that simply does not have a tangible physical form? If so, how do you reconcile that belief with the laws of nature? Do you have any scientific evidence a spirit exists?

Wouldn't the existence of a "spirit" be supernatural in nature?

---

My understanding of his belief is that the supernatural realm does exist, i.e. the spirit, and that is the only realm in which God has power or influence. He doesn't believe God is "supernatural" in the sense that He doesn't have power to influence the physical universe. Of course, that would make the other beliefs in his theology contradictory or nonsensical (let alone egregiously non-biblical, which he remedies with egregiously bad exegesis and eisegesis).

---

Indeed, a very odd and contradictory set of beliefs. So, there is a spirit world where God exists that isn't supernatural - like another dimension or something? And in that world, God has certain powers, but they're not supernatural?

Very very odd. There is no logic to it at all.

---

Don't put words in my mouth. God is spirit and transcendent in love, justice for the poor, grace which does not mean supernatural. Your love for your wife or SO is not supernatural but real and transcends time and distance just like God

---

Warmth can be measured,

Fuzzy is a description of texture: reporting on an observation

Therefore: 47's Warm and Fuzzy theology is science. 47 has scientifically proven his god.

---

The love of my savior was not fuzzy. It was a cruel, inhuman death.

---

And his resurrection is therefore all the more amazing and important.

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, here is our exchange from the other thread. I think this exchange is pretty clear you answered yes to the question of whether you believe that Jesus is a physical person or entity alive at this moment.

Me:

"Can you please provide a "yes" or "no" response to these 2 questions?


1. Do you mean the Jesus of the bible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?

2.In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?

Thanks."

You:

"Yes and yes."

---

My apologies. Thank you for tracking it down I misunderstood your questions.
1. Do you mean the Jesus of thbible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?
A. Yes, Jesus is alive at this moment spiritually
2. In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?
B. I thought you were talking about humans in general not Jesus in particular. I totally misread "entity."
An entity to me in the moment I read it was Jesus is an entity' as in any particular form such as spirit.
Again my apologies. It was a misreading of your question.
Jesus is spirit and as spirit is alive today.

---

Thanks for the clarification. So you believe a "spirit" exists. By spirit, do you mean an actual thinking and feeling being that simply does not have a tangible physical form? If so, how do you reconcile that belief with the laws of nature? Do you have any scientific evidence a spirit exists?

Wouldn't the existence of a "spirit" be supernatural in nature?

---

My understanding of his belief is that the supernatural realm does exist, i.e. the spirit, and that is the only realm in which God has power or influence. He doesn't believe God is "supernatural" in the sense that He doesn't have power to influence the physical universe. Of course, that would make the other beliefs in his theology contradictory or nonsensical (let alone egregiously non-biblical, which he remedies with egregiously bad exegesis and eisegesis).

---

Indeed, a very odd and contradictory set of beliefs. So, there is a spirit world where God exists that isn't supernatural - like another dimension or something? And in that world, God has certain powers, but they're not supernatural?

Very very odd. There is no logic to it at all.

---

Don't put words in my mouth. God is spirit and transcendent in love, justice for the poor, grace which does not mean supernatural. Your love for your wife or SO is not supernatural but real and transcends time and distance just like God

---

Warmth can be measured,

Fuzzy is a description of texture: reporting on an observation

Therefore: 47's Warm and Fuzzy theology is science. 47 has scientifically proven his god.

---

The love of my savior was not fuzzy. It was a cruel, inhuman death.

---

was there a physical resurrection?

The 12 Apostles plus many followers were real eye witnesses to Jesus' miracles, and many of those miracles are recorded in scripture. One can believe them or not. The Bible says that without Faith, it is impossible to please God. Most people unfortunately, will not have a Saving Faith. The person who does not believe that Jesus is the Resurrected Christ probably does not believe that there is a literal Hell. Good discussion, guys.

Waco1947 said:

---

"Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that"


Your declaration "real event" has no proof. Show me your proof..

---

I know the Methodists have gone woke, but it truly is shocking to hear this from a purported Methodist minister.

I have to ask the same as JXL - if none of its real, then why pretend to even practice it?

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, here is our exchange from the other thread. I think this exchange is pretty clear you answered yes to the question of whether you believe that Jesus is a physical person or entity alive at this moment.

Me:

"Can you please provide a "yes" or "no" response to these 2 questions?


1. Do you mean the Jesus of the bible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?

2.In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?

Thanks."

You:

"Yes and yes."

---

My apologies. Thank you for tracking it down I misunderstood your questions.
1. Do you mean the Jesus of thbible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?
A. Yes, Jesus is alive at this moment spiritually
2. In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?
B. I thought you were talking about humans in general not Jesus in particular. I totally misread "entity."
An entity to me in the moment I read it was Jesus is an entity' as in any particular form such as spirit.
Again my apologies. It was a misreading of your question.
Jesus is spirit and as spirit is alive today.

---

Thanks for the clarification. So you believe a "spirit" exists. By spirit, do you mean an actual thinking and feeling being that simply does not have a tangible physical form? If so, how do you reconcile that belief with the laws of nature? Do you have any scientific evidence a spirit exists?

Wouldn't the existence of a "spirit" be supernatural in nature?

---

My understanding of his belief is that the supernatural realm does exist, i.e. the spirit, and that is the only realm in which God has power or influence. He doesn't believe God is "supernatural" in the sense that He doesn't have power to influence the physical universe. Of course, that would make the other beliefs in his theology contradictory or nonsensical (let alone egregiously non-biblical, which he remedies with egregiously bad exegesis and eisegesis).

---

Indeed, a very odd and contradictory set of beliefs. So, there is a spirit world where God exists that isn't supernatural - like another dimension or something? And in that world, God has certain powers, but they're not supernatural?

Very very odd. There is no logic to it at all.

---

Don't put words in my mouth. God is spirit and transcendent in love, justice for the poor, grace which does not mean supernatural. Your love for your wife or SO is not supernatural but real and transcends time and distance just like God

---

Warmth can be measured,

Fuzzy is a description of texture: reporting on an observation

Therefore: 47's Warm and Fuzzy theology is science. 47 has scientifically proven his god.

---

The love of my savior was not fuzzy. It was a cruel, inhuman death.

---

But you just said these were not real events. So it's just a story of a cruel, inhuman death that never happened.

quash said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

The problem I see, RMF, is that accepting all beliefs as equally valid leads to charlatans like Osteen and other con men, who use Christ as a means for profit and influence, while sincere belief in what is really no more than a psychological fixation cannot help the person address his or her real need for the living God.

I believe in a God who actually exists as three Persons, who has the power and the interest to help me become the man I not want, but need to be. I believe in the God of Miracles, not for the sake of spectacle, but for the power in every crisis to reach anyone, even at their worst moment.

I believe there is an Evil one who seeks to keep us from having a relationship with God, and his tricks include making some settle for a philosophical idol or a god in symbol only. I believe we must take a step of faith to reach the real God, who uses that as the start of our walk to become the persons He means for us to become.

Think of the account where Jesus walked on water. Recall that He commanded Peter to walk on the water to Him, and just for a few steps, Peter was able to walk on water because he trusted Jesus.

That was a real event, not a metaphor or myth. And it matters in these days of hard-faced materialism to stand by that truth. Not for the sake of winning an argument, but in witness to God's power and intentions.

---

No not "real events." But They are oral histories yet lack historicity. Other evidence of actuality.

---

Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that.

---

In my opinion, it is a mix. Some facts are documrntable, there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole ......even resurrection

My point is that it does not change my belief. The message is the same. My Moslem friend made a good point, who lacks faith more someone that applies logic and science to their belief OR someone that REQUIRES miracles to believe?

I agree with him, I dont need the walking on water to ba a literal event that occurred at 2:07 pm on March 35th in 32 AD to agree with Jesus message. Or that his purpose was to add love to the law.

Many Baptist traditionally don't believe Catholics are Christians.

---

Since you don't believe in Jesus' resurrection, you definitely aren't a Christian. You might not even be Catholic.

Without the miracle of the resurrection, our faith is dead. As Paul said in I Corinthians 15:17 - "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins."

---

I said I believe it was not necessary to be historic. I will find out the truth someday, until that day I go to church, practice the sacraments and believe in the path the Christ set forward. Live as good a life as I can. Was it historic? Beats the **** out of me.

You are right about one thing, I would not make a good Baptist or Protestant. To questioning...

---

It is absolutely necessary for it to be historic. The Christian faith is BASED on the historic resurrection of Jesus, not on a moral code or example set by him.

---

All I said was whether it is a historic fact or a parable to illustrate a point does not change my believe.

---

And I'm saying that if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't.

---

And I am saying that if you have to have miracles to believe, believe is pretty weak...

---

And I am saying the miracle of resurrection IS the belief. It doesn't make it weak, it is nonexistent without it.

---

Geez, I qualified several times to avoid this crap, personal opinion. Not saying Church or anyone has to agree. Not saying I am right. Saying that if it was not historic, it does not change my beliefs. I do not not need a literal miracle to validate my belief. Did it happen? I do not know. All I know is that Jesus did exist, he was crucified and his impact changed the world. I follow the Catholic teachings, but am honest enough with my self to question the historIcal accuracy of the Bible. At that point, needed to make a decision. Either I believe in the message or I don't.

Therefore, EVEN if all the miracles are really literary license to make a point, it does not change my beliefs. I am not walking away if the stories are not true, because I agree with the message. That is as close to faith as I can come. If you have the faith of a child and can honestly still feel that way I am envious and more power to you. The world needs more of it.

---

This isn't crap, it's the truth.

And as I said before, if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't. Meaning, you are not a believer, aside from looking to Jesus for fortune cookie feel-goods.

You think requiring miracles makes your belief weak. But since you don't require them, WHAT you believe is weak.

---

Noted.

---

Lol. Teach you to engage with a True Believer.

---

I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

RMF5630 said:

---

quash said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

The problem I see, RMF, is that accepting all beliefs as equally valid leads to charlatans like Osteen and other con men, who use Christ as a means for profit and influence, while sincere belief in what is really no more than a psychological fixation cannot help the person address his or her real need for the living God.

I believe in a God who actually exists as three Persons, who has the power and the interest to help me become the man I not want, but need to be. I believe in the God of Miracles, not for the sake of spectacle, but for the power in every crisis to reach anyone, even at their worst moment.

I believe there is an Evil one who seeks to keep us from having a relationship with God, and his tricks include making some settle for a philosophical idol or a god in symbol only. I believe we must take a step of faith to reach the real God, who uses that as the start of our walk to become the persons He means for us to become.

Think of the account where Jesus walked on water. Recall that He commanded Peter to walk on the water to Him, and just for a few steps, Peter was able to walk on water because he trusted Jesus.

That was a real event, not a metaphor or myth. And it matters in these days of hard-faced materialism to stand by that truth. Not for the sake of winning an argument, but in witness to God's power and intentions.

---

No not "real events." But They are oral histories yet lack historicity. Other evidence of actuality.

---

Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that.

---

In my opinion, it is a mix. Some facts are documrntable, there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole ......even resurrection

My point is that it does not change my belief. The message is the same. My Moslem friend made a good point, who lacks faith more someone that applies logic and science to their belief OR someone that REQUIRES miracles to believe?

I agree with him, I dont need the walking on water to ba a literal event that occurred at 2:07 pm on March 35th in 32 AD to agree with Jesus message. Or that his purpose was to add love to the law.

Many Baptist traditionally don't believe Catholics are Christians.

---

Since you don't believe in Jesus' resurrection, you definitely aren't a Christian. You might not even be Catholic.

Without the miracle of the resurrection, our faith is dead. As Paul said in I Corinthians 15:17 - "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins."

---

I said I believe it was not necessary to be historic. I will find out the truth someday, until that day I go to church, practice the sacraments and believe in the path the Christ set forward. Live as good a life as I can. Was it historic? Beats the **** out of me.

You are right about one thing, I would not make a good Baptist or Protestant. To questioning...

---

It is absolutely necessary for it to be historic. The Christian faith is BASED on the historic resurrection of Jesus, not on a moral code or example set by him.

---

All I said was whether it is a historic fact or a parable to illustrate a point does not change my believe.

---

And I'm saying that if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't.

---

And I am saying that if you have to have miracles to believe, believe is pretty weak...

---

And I am saying the miracle of resurrection IS the belief. It doesn't make it weak, it is nonexistent without it.

---

Geez, I qualified several times to avoid this crap, personal opinion. Not saying Church or anyone has to agree. Not saying I am right. Saying that if it was not historic, it does not change my beliefs. I do not not need a literal miracle to validate my belief. Did it happen? I do not know. All I know is that Jesus did exist, he was crucified and his impact changed the world. I follow the Catholic teachings, but am honest enough with my self to question the historIcal accuracy of the Bible. At that point, needed to make a decision. Either I believe in the message or I don't.

Therefore, EVEN if all the miracles are really literary license to make a point, it does not change my beliefs. I am not walking away if the stories are not true, because I agree with the message. That is as close to faith as I can come. If you have the faith of a child and can honestly still feel that way I am envious and more power to you. The world needs more of it.

---

This isn't crap, it's the truth.

And as I said before, if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't. Meaning, you are not a believer, aside from looking to Jesus for fortune cookie feel-goods.

You think requiring miracles makes your belief weak. But since you don't require them, WHAT you believe is weak.

---

Noted.

---

Lol. Teach you to engage with a True Believer.

---

I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

---

I'm Protestant and married a Catholic. I'm denied communion in a Catholic Church.

I think most faiths profess some form of exclusivity.

I don't recall any scriptures saying Christ was Protestant or Catholic. I think we might both be good if we put our faith in the risen Christ

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that"


Your declaration "real event" has no proof. Show me your proof..

---

So you demand God follow your rules, meet your conditions.

And you are ducking the fact that if you reject one part of Scripture, you cannot depend on any of it.

---

From Eden to Babel to Pilate's courtyard - Scripture is replete with stories of man wanting his way not G-d's.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

quash said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

The problem I see, RMF, is that accepting all beliefs as equally valid leads to charlatans like Osteen and other con men, who use Christ as a means for profit and influence, while sincere belief in what is really no more than a psychological fixation cannot help the person address his or her real need for the living God.

I believe in a God who actually exists as three Persons, who has the power and the interest to help me become the man I not want, but need to be. I believe in the God of Miracles, not for the sake of spectacle, but for the power in every crisis to reach anyone, even at their worst moment.

I believe there is an Evil one who seeks to keep us from having a relationship with God, and his tricks include making some settle for a philosophical idol or a god in symbol only. I believe we must take a step of faith to reach the real God, who uses that as the start of our walk to become the persons He means for us to become.

Think of the account where Jesus walked on water. Recall that He commanded Peter to walk on the water to Him, and just for a few steps, Peter was able to walk on water because he trusted Jesus.

That was a real event, not a metaphor or myth. And it matters in these days of hard-faced materialism to stand by that truth. Not for the sake of winning an argument, but in witness to God's power and intentions.

---

No not "real events." But They are oral histories yet lack historicity. Other evidence of actuality.

---

Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that.

---

In my opinion, it is a mix. Some facts are documrntable, there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole ......even resurrection

My point is that it does not change my belief. The message is the same. My Moslem friend made a good point, who lacks faith more someone that applies logic and science to their belief OR someone that REQUIRES miracles to believe?

I agree with him, I dont need the walking on water to ba a literal event that occurred at 2:07 pm on March 35th in 32 AD to agree with Jesus message. Or that his purpose was to add love to the law.

Many Baptist traditionally don't believe Catholics are Christians.

---

Since you don't believe in Jesus' resurrection, you definitely aren't a Christian. You might not even be Catholic.

Without the miracle of the resurrection, our faith is dead. As Paul said in I Corinthians 15:17 - "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins."

---

I said I believe it was not necessary to be historic. I will find out the truth someday, until that day I go to church, practice the sacraments and believe in the path the Christ set forward. Live as good a life as I can. Was it historic? Beats the **** out of me.

You are right about one thing, I would not make a good Baptist or Protestant. To questioning...

---

It is absolutely necessary for it to be historic. The Christian faith is BASED on the historic resurrection of Jesus, not on a moral code or example set by him.

---

All I said was whether it is a historic fact or a parable to illustrate a point does not change my believe.

---

And I'm saying that if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't.

---

And I am saying that if you have to have miracles to believe, believe is pretty weak...

---

And I am saying the miracle of resurrection IS the belief. It doesn't make it weak, it is nonexistent without it.

---

Geez, I qualified several times to avoid this crap, personal opinion. Not saying Church or anyone has to agree. Not saying I am right. Saying that if it was not historic, it does not change my beliefs. I do not not need a literal miracle to validate my belief. Did it happen? I do not know. All I know is that Jesus did exist, he was crucified and his impact changed the world. I follow the Catholic teachings, but am honest enough with my self to question the historIcal accuracy of the Bible. At that point, needed to make a decision. Either I believe in the message or I don't.

Therefore, EVEN if all the miracles are really literary license to make a point, it does not change my beliefs. I am not walking away if the stories are not true, because I agree with the message. That is as close to faith as I can come. If you have the faith of a child and can honestly still feel that way I am envious and more power to you. The world needs more of it.

---

This isn't crap, it's the truth.

And as I said before, if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't. Meaning, you are not a believer, aside from looking to Jesus for fortune cookie feel-goods.

You think requiring miracles makes your belief weak. But since you don't require them, WHAT you believe is weak.

---

Noted.

---

Lol. Teach you to engage with a True Believer.

---

I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

---

I'm Protestant and married a Catholic. I'm denied communion in a Catholic Church.
9th
I think most faiths profess some form of exclusivity.

I don't recall any scriptures saying Christ was Protestant or Catholic. I think we might both be good if we put our faith in the risen Christ

---

We went through that. In Amarillo because there was no Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church the Catholic Church allowed her to receive communion because Lutheran, Episcopal and Catholic sacraments are based on the same believe in the true presence. But that was because it was that or she would not be able to.receive communion.. My wife ended up converting after 16 years, that Priest caring enough to fond put and allowvot went a long way in convincing her. Lutheran Church would not do the same, they would have let me go without.

In my reading of the Scriptures is that it is obvious to even a casual reader but the stories and the gospels are shaped to convey a faith message. They are not history although they may contain some history but they are the good news of Jesus Christ the son of God.

RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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The problem I see, RMF, is that accepting all beliefs as equally valid leads to charlatans like Osteen and other con men, who use Christ as a means for profit and influence, while sincere belief in what is really no more than a psychological fixation cannot help the person address his or her real need for the living God.

I believe in a God who actually exists as three Persons, who has the power and the interest to help me become the man I not want, but need to be. I believe in the God of Miracles, not for the sake of spectacle, but for the power in every crisis to reach anyone, even at their worst moment.

I believe there is an Evil one who seeks to keep us from having a relationship with God, and his tricks include making some settle for a philosophical idol or a god in symbol only. I believe we must take a step of faith to reach the real God, who uses that as the start of our walk to become the persons He means for us to become.

Think of the account where Jesus walked on water. Recall that He commanded Peter to walk on the water to Him, and just for a few steps, Peter was able to walk on water because he trusted Jesus.

That was a real event, not a metaphor or myth. And it matters in these days of hard-faced materialism to stand by that truth. Not for the sake of winning an argument, but in witness to God's power and intentions.

---

No not "real events." But They are oral histories yet lack historicity. Other evidence of actuality.

---

Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that.

---

In my opinion, it is a mix. Some facts are documrntable, there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole ......even resurrection

My point is that it does not change my belief. The message is the same. My Moslem friend made a good point, who lacks faith more someone that applies logic and science to their belief OR someone that REQUIRES miracles to believe?

I agree with him, I dont need the walking on water to ba a literal event that occurred at 2:07 pm on March 35th in 32 AD to agree with Jesus message. Or that his purpose was to add love to the law.

Many Baptist traditionally don't believe Catholics are Christians.

---

Since you don't believe in Jesus' resurrection, you definitely aren't a Christian. You might not even be Catholic.

Without the miracle of the resurrection, our faith is dead. As Paul said in I Corinthians 15:17 - "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins."

---

I said I believe it was not necessary to be historic. I will find out the truth someday, until that day I go to church, practice the sacraments and believe in the path the Christ set forward. Live as good a life as I can. Was it historic? Beats the **** out of me.

You are right about one thing, I would not make a good Baptist or Protestant. To questioning...

---

It is absolutely necessary for it to be historic. The Christian faith is BASED on the historic resurrection of Jesus, not on a moral code or example set by him.

---

All I said was whether it is a historic fact or a parable to illustrate a point does not change my believe.

---

And I'm saying that if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't.

---

And I am saying that if you have to have miracles to believe, believe is pretty weak...

---

And I am saying the miracle of resurrection IS the belief. It doesn't make it weak, it is nonexistent without it.

---

Geez, I qualified several times to avoid this crap, personal opinion. Not saying Church or anyone has to agree. Not saying I am right. Saying that if it was not historic, it does not change my beliefs. I do not not need a literal miracle to validate my belief. Did it happen? I do not know. All I know is that Jesus did exist, he was crucified and his impact changed the world. I follow the Catholic teachings, but am honest enough with my self to question the historIcal accuracy of the Bible. At that point, needed to make a decision. Either I believe in the message or I don't.

Therefore, EVEN if all the miracles are really literary license to make a point, it does not change my beliefs. I am not walking away if the stories are not true, because I agree with the message. That is as close to faith as I can come. If you have the faith of a child and can honestly still feel that way I am envious and more power to you. The world needs more of it.

---

This isn't crap, it's the truth.

And as I said before, if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't. Meaning, you are not a believer, aside from looking to Jesus for fortune cookie feel-goods.

You think requiring miracles makes your belief weak. But since you don't require them, WHAT you believe is weak.

---

Noted.

---

Lol. Teach you to engage with a True Believer.

---

I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

---

Wasn't questioning your experience, just noting the futility of your attempted dialogue.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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"Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that"


Your declaration "real event" has no proof. Show me your proof..

---

So you demand God follow your rules, meet your conditions.

And you are ducking the fact that if you reject one part of Scripture, you cannot depend on any of it.

---

From Eden to Babel to Pilate's courtyard - Scripture is replete with stories of man wanting his way not G-d's.

---

And we know how those stories play out ...

Waco1947 said:

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In my reading of the Scriptures is that it is obvious to even a casual reader but the stories and the gospels are shaped to convey a faith message. They are not history although they may contain some history but they are the good news of Jesus Christ the son of God.

---

You do know what acknowledging Christ as the Lord cost the first generation of apostles?

Waco1947 said:

---

In my reading of the Scriptures is that it is obvious to even a casual reader but the stories and the gospels are shaped to convey a faith message. They are not history although they may contain some history but they are the good news of Jesus Christ the son of God.

---

can you historically or scientifically prove spirit? What about soul?

RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

---

And the apostle Paul, Jesus' chosen messenger, said that without the miracle of the resurrection, your faith is useless and futile (I Corinthians 15:14-17)

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

---

And the apostle Paul, Jesus' chosen messenger, said that without the miracle of the resurrection, your faith is useless and futile (I Corinthians 15:14-17)

---

I get it. You don't agree with me. Beauty of America, you don't have to.

quash said:

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RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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The problem I see, RMF, is that accepting all beliefs as equally valid leads to charlatans like Osteen and other con men, who use Christ as a means for profit and influence, while sincere belief in what is really no more than a psychological fixation cannot help the person address his or her real need for the living God.

I believe in a God who actually exists as three Persons, who has the power and the interest to help me become the man I not want, but need to be. I believe in the God of Miracles, not for the sake of spectacle, but for the power in every crisis to reach anyone, even at their worst moment.

I believe there is an Evil one who seeks to keep us from having a relationship with God, and his tricks include making some settle for a philosophical idol or a god in symbol only. I believe we must take a step of faith to reach the real God, who uses that as the start of our walk to become the persons He means for us to become.

Think of the account where Jesus walked on water. Recall that He commanded Peter to walk on the water to Him, and just for a few steps, Peter was able to walk on water because he trusted Jesus.

That was a real event, not a metaphor or myth. And it matters in these days of hard-faced materialism to stand by that truth. Not for the sake of winning an argument, but in witness to God's power and intentions.

---

No not "real events." But They are oral histories yet lack historicity. Other evidence of actuality.

---

Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that.

---

In my opinion, it is a mix. Some facts are documrntable, there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole ......even resurrection

My point is that it does not change my belief. The message is the same. My Moslem friend made a good point, who lacks faith more someone that applies logic and science to their belief OR someone that REQUIRES miracles to believe?

I agree with him, I dont need the walking on water to ba a literal event that occurred at 2:07 pm on March 35th in 32 AD to agree with Jesus message. Or that his purpose was to add love to the law.

Many Baptist traditionally don't believe Catholics are Christians.

---

Since you don't believe in Jesus' resurrection, you definitely aren't a Christian. You might not even be Catholic.

Without the miracle of the resurrection, our faith is dead. As Paul said in I Corinthians 15:17 - "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins."

---

I said I believe it was not necessary to be historic. I will find out the truth someday, until that day I go to church, practice the sacraments and believe in the path the Christ set forward. Live as good a life as I can. Was it historic? Beats the **** out of me.

You are right about one thing, I would not make a good Baptist or Protestant. To questioning...

---

It is absolutely necessary for it to be historic. The Christian faith is BASED on the historic resurrection of Jesus, not on a moral code or example set by him.

---

All I said was whether it is a historic fact or a parable to illustrate a point does not change my believe.

---

And I'm saying that if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't.

---

And I am saying that if you have to have miracles to believe, believe is pretty weak...

---

And I am saying the miracle of resurrection IS the belief. It doesn't make it weak, it is nonexistent without it.

---

Geez, I qualified several times to avoid this crap, personal opinion. Not saying Church or anyone has to agree. Not saying I am right. Saying that if it was not historic, it does not change my beliefs. I do not not need a literal miracle to validate my belief. Did it happen? I do not know. All I know is that Jesus did exist, he was crucified and his impact changed the world. I follow the Catholic teachings, but am honest enough with my self to question the historIcal accuracy of the Bible. At that point, needed to make a decision. Either I believe in the message or I don't.

Therefore, EVEN if all the miracles are really literary license to make a point, it does not change my beliefs. I am not walking away if the stories are not true, because I agree with the message. That is as close to faith as I can come. If you have the faith of a child and can honestly still feel that way I am envious and more power to you. The world needs more of it.

---

This isn't crap, it's the truth.

And as I said before, if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't. Meaning, you are not a believer, aside from looking to Jesus for fortune cookie feel-goods.

You think requiring miracles makes your belief weak. But since you don't require them, WHAT you believe is weak.

---

Noted.

---

Lol. Teach you to engage with a True Believer.

---

I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

---

Wasn't questioning your experience, just noting the futility of your attempted dialogue.

---

Would thumbs up if I could figure out how...

RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

The problem I see, RMF, is that accepting all beliefs as equally valid leads to charlatans like Osteen and other con men, who use Christ as a means for profit and influence, while sincere belief in what is really no more than a psychological fixation cannot help the person address his or her real need for the living God.

I believe in a God who actually exists as three Persons, who has the power and the interest to help me become the man I not want, but need to be. I believe in the God of Miracles, not for the sake of spectacle, but for the power in every crisis to reach anyone, even at their worst moment.

I believe there is an Evil one who seeks to keep us from having a relationship with God, and his tricks include making some settle for a philosophical idol or a god in symbol only. I believe we must take a step of faith to reach the real God, who uses that as the start of our walk to become the persons He means for us to become.

Think of the account where Jesus walked on water. Recall that He commanded Peter to walk on the water to Him, and just for a few steps, Peter was able to walk on water because he trusted Jesus.

That was a real event, not a metaphor or myth. And it matters in these days of hard-faced materialism to stand by that truth. Not for the sake of winning an argument, but in witness to God's power and intentions.

---

No not "real events." But They are oral histories yet lack historicity. Other evidence of actuality.

---

Yes, real events.

You deny what you choose not to accept. You cannot legitimately say you accept this part of Scripture but not that.

---

In my opinion, it is a mix. Some facts are documrntable, there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole ......even resurrection

My point is that it does not change my belief. The message is the same. My Moslem friend made a good point, who lacks faith more someone that applies logic and science to their belief OR someone that REQUIRES miracles to believe?

I agree with him, I dont need the walking on water to ba a literal event that occurred at 2:07 pm on March 35th in 32 AD to agree with Jesus message. Or that his purpose was to add love to the law.

Many Baptist traditionally don't believe Catholics are Christians.

---

Since you don't believe in Jesus' resurrection, you definitely aren't a Christian. You might not even be Catholic.

Without the miracle of the resurrection, our faith is dead. As Paul said in I Corinthians 15:17 - "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins."

---

I said I believe it was not necessary to be historic. I will find out the truth someday, until that day I go to church, practice the sacraments and believe in the path the Christ set forward. Live as good a life as I can. Was it historic? Beats the **** out of me.

You are right about one thing, I would not make a good Baptist or Protestant. To questioning...

---

It is absolutely necessary for it to be historic. The Christian faith is BASED on the historic resurrection of Jesus, not on a moral code or example set by him.

---

All I said was whether it is a historic fact or a parable to illustrate a point does not change my believe.

---

And I'm saying that if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't.

---

And I am saying that if you have to have miracles to believe, believe is pretty weak...

---

And I am saying the miracle of resurrection IS the belief. It doesn't make it weak, it is nonexistent without it.

---

Geez, I qualified several times to avoid this crap, personal opinion. Not saying Church or anyone has to agree. Not saying I am right. Saying that if it was not historic, it does not change my beliefs. I do not not need a literal miracle to validate my belief. Did it happen? I do not know. All I know is that Jesus did exist, he was crucified and his impact changed the world. I follow the Catholic teachings, but am honest enough with my self to question the historIcal accuracy of the Bible. At that point, needed to make a decision. Either I believe in the message or I don't.

Therefore, EVEN if all the miracles are really literary license to make a point, it does not change my beliefs. I am not walking away if the stories are not true, because I agree with the message. That is as close to faith as I can come. If you have the faith of a child and can honestly still feel that way I am envious and more power to you. The world needs more of it.

---

This isn't crap, it's the truth.

And as I said before, if it doesn't change what you believe, then you don't. Meaning, you are not a believer, aside from looking to Jesus for fortune cookie feel-goods.

You think requiring miracles makes your belief weak. But since you don't require them, WHAT you believe is weak.

---

Noted.

---

Lol. Teach you to engage with a True Believer.

---

I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

---

Wasn't questioning your experience, just noting the futility of your attempted dialogue.

---

Would thumbs up if I could figure out how...

---

90 miles south on hwy 6 but, I don't recommend it.

RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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.

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I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

---

And the apostle Paul, Jesus' chosen messenger, said that without the miracle of the resurrection, your faith is useless and futile (I Corinthians 15:14-17)

---

I get it. You don't agree with me. Beauty of America, you don't have to.

---

Isn't it Jesus, via Paul, who doesn't agree with you?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I am well versed. Wife was Lutheran, I am Catholic.
Father-in law said Pope is anti-christ.
Brother in Law said become Lutheran to become Christian
Married in Lutheran Church, Pastor denied every reading, song I requested.
Learned that if I go to heaven, I have to be quiet. The Protestants think they are the only ones there...

---

And the apostle Paul, Jesus' chosen messenger, said that without the miracle of the resurrection, your faith is useless and futile (I Corinthians 15:14-17)

---

I get it. You don't agree with me. Beauty of America, you don't have to.

---

Isn't it Jesus, via Paul, who doesn't agree with you?

---

Depends on how literally you take the Bible and if you believe Paul is even an Apostle. That should give you something good to stew on.

RMF5630 said:

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Depends on how literally you take the Bible and if you believe Paul is even an Apostle. That should give you something good to stew on.

---

It depends on what you mean by literal.

Jesus walking on water, miraculously feeding the 5000, raising Lazarus from the dead, healing the blind, deaf, mute, lame - all literally happened.

Prodigal son, rich man begging Lazarus for a drop of water - Parables to explain a greater teaching.

As a Catholic, we are bound to believe that sacred Scripture is inerrant -

From Vatican II document Dei Verbum (The Word of God) 11:

"Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures"

Coke Bear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Depends on how literally you take the Bible and if you believe Paul is even an Apostle. That should give you something good to stew on.

---

It depends on what you mean by literal.

Jesus walking on water, miraculously feeding the 5000, raising Lazarus from the dead, healing the blind, deaf, mute, lame - all literally happened.

Prodigal son, rich man begging Lazarus for a drop of water - Parables to explain a greater teaching.

As a Catholic, we are bound to believe that sacred Scripture is inerrant -

From Vatican II document Dei Verbum (The Word of God) 11:

"Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures"

---

It was a "just curious" philosophical discussion on "what ifs" and how it would impact you. I know the Catechism. Does that mean I agree with every single thing in the Catechism, site unseen. No, there are several items that give me issues. But, I still choose to be Catholic and go to Church every Sunday and do the Sacraments.

I have had this discussion with Moslems, Jews, Priests, Franciscan Brothers Protestants, and Lutheran Pastors, funny it seems the lay Catholics and the Protestants are the worst to discuss. The best was the Moslems, Jews and Jesuits. They seemed to be able to discuss on an abstract level without it being an attack on some tenet of faith.

Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In my reading of the Scriptures is that it is obvious to even a casual reader but the stories and the gospels are shaped to convey a faith message. They are not history although they may contain some history but they are the good news of Jesus Christ the son of God.

---

You do know what acknowledging Christ as the Lord cost the first generation of apostles?

---

Yes, I know but immaterial to this discussion of historicity of the gospels.

Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In my reading of the Scriptures is that it is obvious to even a casual reader but the stories and the gospels are shaped to convey a faith message. They are not history although they may contain some history but they are the good news of Jesus Christ the son of God.

---

You do know what acknowledging Christ as the Lord cost the first generation of apostles?

---

Yes, I know but immaterial to this discussion of historicity of the gospels.

---

Geez, Waco. You sure can get me in trouble! : )

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

In my reading of the Scriptures is that it is obvious to even a casual reader but the stories and the gospels are shaped to convey a faith message. They are not history although they may contain some history but they are the good news of Jesus Christ the son of God.

---

can you historically or scientifically prove spirit? What about soul?

---

No, I cannot scientifically prove a soul.
But historically I can. You are example A. Do you know a soul? I do. The witness of faith throughout the centuries says that we have a soul; so yes history proves it.

I Corinthians 15 17 if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christwhom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile, and you are still in your sins."

So yes the resurrection is central, however Paul goes on to say,
35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 36 Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 Not all flesh is alike, but there is one flesh for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another.

So Jesus is raised from dead is; He not? But "god gives us a body ...there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies." Jesus had a heavenly body. -- that is His resurrection body.

RMF5630 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In my reading of the Scriptures is that it is obvious to even a casual reader but the stories and the gospels are shaped to convey a faith message. They are not history although they may contain some history but they are the good news of Jesus Christ the son of God.

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You do know what acknowledging Christ as the Lord cost the first generation of apostles?

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Yes, I know but immaterial to this discussion of historicity of the gospels.

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Geez, Waco. You sure can get me in trouble! : )

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How so?

Waco1947 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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In my reading of the Scriptures is that it is obvious to even a casual reader but the stories and the gospels are shaped to convey a faith message. They are not history although they may contain some history but they are the good news of Jesus Christ the son of God.

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You do know what acknowledging Christ as the Lord cost the first generation of apostles?

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Yes, I know but immaterial to this discussion of historicity of the gospels.

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Geez, Waco. You sure can get me in trouble! : )

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How so?

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Just joining the conversation, I am sure it is my thoughts! You bring up some interesting topics and when I join in to discuss all hell breaks loose.

If the claim of literalists is that the gospel accounts are "eye witness" then compare these two "Follow me" stories.

Matthew 8 18 Now when Jesus saw great crowds[f] around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. 19 A scribe then approached and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go." 20 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head." 21 Another of his disciples said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Jesus Stills the Storm
23 And when he got into the boat, his disciples followed him.

Notice the stories tak place in the context of boarding a boat.

Now look at Luke's "follow me" stories.

5Luke 9: 57 As they were going along the road, someone said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go." 58 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head." 59 To another he said, "Follow me." But he said, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 60 And Jesus[j] said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God." 61 Another said, "I will follow you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home." 62 And Jesus said to him, "No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."
Which "eye witness account is "true" and "historical" or are the gospel writer intent to share the good news of Jesus and shape the stories to that end?