That dude has been a nut job for a long time.
Dobbs v. Jackson
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638 Replies |
Last: 1 yr ago by Cobretti
4th and Inches said:understand, our journeys vary but come from the same place of love..bear2be2 said:That's awesome. I applaud you, sir. I'm sure you know and can share what a fulfilling experience it is. And I'm sorry you were never able to adopt any of your placements. My wife and I were extremely fortunate in that regard.4th and Inches said:we were never lucky enough to adopt any of the fosters placed with us. The system worked to return them or place with family/siblings. Hannah, Janson, Jalen, Orien, Ariana, Marissa, Michael, Haley, and Jack touched our lives and we did all we could when they were with us. We spent thousands on each of them and sent everything on with them when they were placed with family.bear2be2 said:I tell you what. Adopt a child and we'll talk. Be one of the 0.06 percent of professing Christians that needs to adopt a single child out of foster care to eliminate this problem altogether. You'll be making a significant difference.He Hate Me said:bear2be2 said:I hope to have the opportunity someday.He Hate Me said:bear2be2 said:I don't ignore that. I've addressed it multiple times on this thread.Canada2017 said:You have already been informed that Christians adopt far more kids than non Christians .......contribute far more money to charities than non Christians .bear2be2 said:Nope. I don't understand why there are more than 117,000 kids waiting to be adopted and more than 1,000 kids aging out of foster care every year in a country with more than 200 million professing Christians.JXL said:bear2be2 said:That's not my point. My point is that those of you who claim to be pro-life need to start putting your money where your mouth is.Mothra said:So, put them down like stray dogs then.bear2be2 said:I'm no great fan of abortion as a practice, but you can already see the practical effects this ruling will have in places where access is heavily restricted. And the most damaging outcomes will skew, as these things always do, toward the most disadvantaged populations among us.BaylorJacket said:303Bear said:SCOTUS is not meant to uphold majority sentiment. If abortion is so popular, there should be no risk at all as every state will quickly codify it.BaylorJacket said:
It is a sad day - an unelected court of judges overturns a policy supported by nearly 70% of Americans.
If anything, this perfectly illustrates the danger of courts creating positive rights rather than protecting people by protecting them from government overreach through negative rights.
Due to the supremacy clause, congress could pass federal laws codifying all of the supposedly "threatened" rights and no state could countermand that. That no congress in 50 years bothered to do so with abortion is interesting, and ultimately why this ruling even matters at all.
I completely agree with you, Congress had decades to do something.
Regardless of the politics behind these decisions, I am just disheartened for especially women of poverty in red states
More than for anyone else, I'm disheartened for the thousands of children who will soon be added to the nearly half-million kids we already have in foster care -- many of whom will age out to horrific outcomes while being called a victory by politicians and the religious right.
This country doesn't have an abortion problem as much has it has an unwanted pregnancy/uncared-for child problem. And restricting abortion access will do nothing to solve that. When those who are most anti-abortion are prepared to make contraceptives available to all who want/need them and will take on the burden themselves of fostering and adopting all of the children who need stable homes in this country, I'll take the term "pro-life" more seriously. But pro-birth policies create and exacerbate as many problems as they solve.
Nope.
Y'all say you care about children. Prove it.
Y'all've done a really ****ty job of proving it since Roe. I have my doubts that anything will change now.
In other words, you're saying you don't understand why conservative Christian's don't create organizations like this:
https://livingalternatives.org/
Why do you choose to ignore this ?
First, I don't give Christians credit for doing something they should be doing. If they weren't doing more, their religion would have no functional value to society.
And second, they're still clearly not doing enough. While I appreciate every person chooses to foster or adopt -- except for the abusive *******s who put some of these kids through hell -- only a minute percentage of professing Christians have actually taken that step. And it wouldn't take many more to step up and erase this problem entirely.
If you're going to claim to care about these kids, there are ways to show it. One of the biggest is to take care of the kids already being born into adverse conditions. We've done a piss poor job of that as a country.
You could adopt more. Stop being so pathetic by your measure.
If you really cared, you would do it now. You just don't live up to your own standard. What do we call that? Hypocrisy?
We donate each month to foster agencies and to agency that helps expecting Moms medical care/ baby care after born..
I accept the challenge as a Christian to do more..
I'm hoping that after our kids are grown that we can foster again. Unfortunately, we're not in a position to right now.
and we both love gumbo!
God bless you sir. Much respect. I pay for a few kids education but my charioty pales next to you. I know Canada does a lot also
He says he is moving to the UK. Wonder where he will move once he learns the UK and all of Europe is more restrictive than CA, OR, WA, etc. when it comes to abortion.Cobretti said:Billie Joe Armstrong, lead singer for the punk rock band Green Day, said he's "renouncing his citizenship" from the United States, apparently in the wake of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. https://t.co/W5K5oFxOw6
— Newsmax (@newsmax) June 26, 2022
Wow. Today I learned that Europe has more restrictive abortion laws than most of the U.S. did up until this week. https://t.co/h7cvIlIEMN
— Noah Smith 🐇🇺🇦 (@Noahpinion) June 26, 2022
I don't hold a candle compared to ' 4th and inches. 'Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:4th and Inches said:understand, our journeys vary but come from the same place of love..bear2be2 said:That's awesome. I applaud you, sir. I'm sure you know and can share what a fulfilling experience it is. And I'm sorry you were never able to adopt any of your placements. My wife and I were extremely fortunate in that regard.4th and Inches said:we were never lucky enough to adopt any of the fosters placed with us. The system worked to return them or place with family/siblings. Hannah, Janson, Jalen, Orien, Ariana, Marissa, Michael, Haley, and Jack touched our lives and we did all we could when they were with us. We spent thousands on each of them and sent everything on with them when they were placed with family.bear2be2 said:I tell you what. Adopt a child and we'll talk. Be one of the 0.06 percent of professing Christians that needs to adopt a single child out of foster care to eliminate this problem altogether. You'll be making a significant difference.He Hate Me said:bear2be2 said:I hope to have the opportunity someday.He Hate Me said:bear2be2 said:I don't ignore that. I've addressed it multiple times on this thread.Canada2017 said:You have already been informed that Christians adopt far more kids than non Christians .......contribute far more money to charities than non Christians .bear2be2 said:Nope. I don't understand why there are more than 117,000 kids waiting to be adopted and more than 1,000 kids aging out of foster care every year in a country with more than 200 million professing Christians.JXL said:bear2be2 said:That's not my point. My point is that those of you who claim to be pro-life need to start putting your money where your mouth is.Mothra said:So, put them down like stray dogs then.bear2be2 said:I'm no great fan of abortion as a practice, but you can already see the practical effects this ruling will have in places where access is heavily restricted. And the most damaging outcomes will skew, as these things always do, toward the most disadvantaged populations among us.BaylorJacket said:303Bear said:SCOTUS is not meant to uphold majority sentiment. If abortion is so popular, there should be no risk at all as every state will quickly codify it.BaylorJacket said:
It is a sad day - an unelected court of judges overturns a policy supported by nearly 70% of Americans.
If anything, this perfectly illustrates the danger of courts creating positive rights rather than protecting people by protecting them from government overreach through negative rights.
Due to the supremacy clause, congress could pass federal laws codifying all of the supposedly "threatened" rights and no state could countermand that. That no congress in 50 years bothered to do so with abortion is interesting, and ultimately why this ruling even matters at all.
I completely agree with you, Congress had decades to do something.
Regardless of the politics behind these decisions, I am just disheartened for especially women of poverty in red states
More than for anyone else, I'm disheartened for the thousands of children who will soon be added to the nearly half-million kids we already have in foster care -- many of whom will age out to horrific outcomes while being called a victory by politicians and the religious right.
This country doesn't have an abortion problem as much has it has an unwanted pregnancy/uncared-for child problem. And restricting abortion access will do nothing to solve that. When those who are most anti-abortion are prepared to make contraceptives available to all who want/need them and will take on the burden themselves of fostering and adopting all of the children who need stable homes in this country, I'll take the term "pro-life" more seriously. But pro-birth policies create and exacerbate as many problems as they solve.
Nope.
Y'all say you care about children. Prove it.
Y'all've done a really ****ty job of proving it since Roe. I have my doubts that anything will change now.
In other words, you're saying you don't understand why conservative Christian's don't create organizations like this:
https://livingalternatives.org/
Why do you choose to ignore this ?
First, I don't give Christians credit for doing something they should be doing. If they weren't doing more, their religion would have no functional value to society.
And second, they're still clearly not doing enough. While I appreciate every person chooses to foster or adopt -- except for the abusive *******s who put some of these kids through hell -- only a minute percentage of professing Christians have actually taken that step. And it wouldn't take many more to step up and erase this problem entirely.
If you're going to claim to care about these kids, there are ways to show it. One of the biggest is to take care of the kids already being born into adverse conditions. We've done a piss poor job of that as a country.
You could adopt more. Stop being so pathetic by your measure.
If you really cared, you would do it now. You just don't live up to your own standard. What do we call that? Hypocrisy?
We donate each month to foster agencies and to agency that helps expecting Moms medical care/ baby care after born..
I accept the challenge as a Christian to do more..
I'm hoping that after our kids are grown that we can foster again. Unfortunately, we're not in a position to right now.
and we both love gumbo!
God bless you sir. Much respect. I pay for a few kids education but my charioty pales next to you. I know Canada does a lot also
The Dobbs ruling is the right result textually, and in the long run I believe it will make for a healthier politics but the short run is going to be messy and very, very angry.
— Megan McArdle (@asymmetricinfo) June 24, 2022
Turns out "American Idiot" was biographical.Jacques Strap said:He says he is moving to the UK. Wonder where he will move once he learns the UK and all of Europe is more restrictive than CA, OR, WA, etc. when it comes to abortion.Cobretti said:Billie Joe Armstrong, lead singer for the punk rock band Green Day, said he's "renouncing his citizenship" from the United States, apparently in the wake of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. https://t.co/W5K5oFxOw6
— Newsmax (@newsmax) June 26, 2022Wow. Today I learned that Europe has more restrictive abortion laws than most of the U.S. did up until this week. https://t.co/h7cvIlIEMN
— Noah Smith 🐇🇺🇦 (@Noahpinion) June 26, 2022
303Bear said:Turns out "American Idiot" was biographical.Jacques Strap said:He says he is moving to the UK. Wonder where he will move once he learns the UK and all of Europe is more restrictive than CA, OR, WA, etc. when it comes to abortion.Cobretti said:Billie Joe Armstrong, lead singer for the punk rock band Green Day, said he's "renouncing his citizenship" from the United States, apparently in the wake of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. https://t.co/W5K5oFxOw6
— Newsmax (@newsmax) June 26, 2022Wow. Today I learned that Europe has more restrictive abortion laws than most of the U.S. did up until this week. https://t.co/h7cvIlIEMN
— Noah Smith 🐇🇺🇦 (@Noahpinion) June 26, 2022
He can move there with Alex Baldwin. Oh wait. Oops
Look, alot of the celebs/singers are uneducated.
Golem said:OsoCoreyell said:Such a dishonest question from Chuck Todd.Cobretti said:AOC: "This is not just a crisis of Roe, this is a crisis of our democracy. The Supreme Court has dramatically overreached it's authority. ... This is a crisis of legitimacy." pic.twitter.com/iGtrYoxShR
— The Post Millennial (@TPostMillennial) June 26, 2022NBC's Chuck Todd tees up AOC to go after Kavanaugh and Gorsuch: "Do you think lying in a confirmation hearing is an impeachable offense?"
— Kevin Tober (@KevinTober94) June 26, 2022
AOC: "I believe so." pic.twitter.com/riIWp1BOgs
They'd better get it done before November. The problem will be that by trying to impeach honest Justices, they will lose even more votes.
Carville agrees with you. But he and others in the article doubt it will happen (because they know it won't happen). This admin is the proverbial dead man walking.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democratic-republican-strategists-weigh-implication-supreme-court-abortion-ruling-midterm-elections
The problem with today's Democrat party is that AOC is the mouth of the party and Joe Biden is its brains.
Canada2017 said:Rawhide said:Does she actually exert energy and spend time perfecting to be this stupid?Cobretti said:Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: Let's open abortion clinics on federal lands so "people" can get abortions pic.twitter.com/W6V2SJAgGG
— RNC Research (@RNCResearch) June 26, 2022
You guys continue to underestimate AOC.
In reality she is honing her craft every single day .
AOC knows exactly how to appeal to her base.......not only in her district but across the country .
Compared to the old folks seemingly forever locked into the DC Beltway..........AOC looks fresh and progressive.
The camera loving communist is going to be around a very long time .
I agree and have argued about the same things. Those that sit at home and call her stupid reveal much more about themselves. Cons need to learn that sittting back, name calling and laughing are not an effective strategy. Find leaders that can communicate with the masses. I think ww used to call it leadership.
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I will believe you care when left-wing terrorists stop fire bombing the very centers you demand the GOP set up.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
Anyone want to bet you do not know what you're talking about with regard to the birth of Christ? (Not that you are alone in this).
The recent court decision does not ban abortion or even limit it in any way. It leaves it up to the states. I am not a Republican, but I will make you a deal, you work as hard as you can to get your fellow liberals to severely limit abortion in the 50 states and I will advocate for some version of single payer universal healthcare and even more government handouts for your favorite welfare programs.
I am tired, tired, tired of reading propaganda about "leftist" violence when Republicans are enabling mass shootings, include a couple of really horrific ones in your home state at a church and a school, and when providers who performed LEGAL abortions have been murdered at their homes and at centers where they provided reproductive health services.303Bear said:I will believe you care when left-wing terrorists stop fire bombing the very centers you demand the GOP set up.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I don't condone any sort of violence.
But the narrative that all violence anywhere is caused by leftists, pro-choice demonstrators, BLM and ANTIFA is just bull***** Some of the violence you decry were right-wingers masquerading as BLM or ANTIFA.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/
And where was your mouth when rightwingers were marching in the streets of Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us?"
Running over and killing a young woman? (At least that guy will be in prison for a very long time?)
Storming the capital--violence you and other hard-right Republicans have done everything in your power to gaslight out of existence when it clearly happened, people were clearly armed, and some of your own representatives, including Mike Pence, were physically endangered by it.
Shame on you.
Did you really try and deflect by bringing up Charlottesville and January 6th? Wow.J.B.Katz said:I am tired, tired, tired of reading propaganda about "leftist" violence when Republicans are enabling mass shootings, include a couple of really horrific ones in your home state at a church and a school, and when providers who performed LEGAL abortions have been murdered at their homes and at centers where they provided reproductive health services.303Bear said:I will believe you care when left-wing terrorists stop fire bombing the very centers you demand the GOP set up.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I don't condone any sort of violence.
But the narrative that all violence anywhere is caused by leftists, pro-choice demonstrators, BLM and ANTIFA is just bull***** Some of the violence you decry were right-wingers masquerading as BLM or ANTIFA.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/
And where was your mouth when rightwingers were marching in the streets of Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us?"
Running over and killing a young woman? (At least that guy will be in prison for a very long time?)
Storming the capital--violence you and other hard-right Republicans have done everything in your power to gaslight out of existence when it clearly happened, people were clearly armed, and some of your own representatives, including Mike Pence, were physically endangered by it.
Shame on you.
Edit to respond to your "point" since I am being charitable. 30 seconds of googling and turns out there have been 9 doctors or PP employees killed in 7 attacks, most recently the Colorado Springs PP clinic shooting in 2015 that left 3 dead (the suspect was found unfit to stand trial and is still incarcerated). 8 other doctors/clinicians wounded (including one doctor who was shot in 1993 and then shot again and killed in 2009) and 45 attacks or attempted attacks on clinics since 1973. Or just less than one attack a year on average.
No murder or violence is justified, but hardly an endemic "right wing violence wave".
Edit #2 - Upon further googling, there were ~27 attacks nationwide on crisis pregnancy centers since May 2022 when the draft opinion was leaked. This does not account for all of the attacks over the weekend after the opinion was released - cannot get a consistent number on that yet.
UK abortion laws are way more extreme than most US states. The guy is an idiot.Cobretti said:Billie Joe Armstrong, lead singer for the punk rock band Green Day, said he's "renouncing his citizenship" from the United States, apparently in the wake of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. https://t.co/W5K5oFxOw6
— Newsmax (@newsmax) June 26, 2022
Part of his brand is hating America.
Yea I never understood the whole "AOC is an idiot" thing.Canada2017 said:Rawhide said:Does she actually exert energy and spend time perfecting to be this stupid?Cobretti said:Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: Let's open abortion clinics on federal lands so "people" can get abortions pic.twitter.com/W6V2SJAgGG
— RNC Research (@RNCResearch) June 26, 2022
You guys continue to underestimate AOC.
In reality she is honing her craft every single day .
AOC knows exactly how to appeal to her base.......not only in her district but across the country .
Compared to the old folks seemingly forever locked into the DC Beltway..........AOC looks fresh and progressive.
The camera loving communist is going to be around a very long time .
She is a committed extreme ideologue...but she is no idiot.
She knows exactly what she is doing and it plays very well to the extreme Left of the party and among the young "democratic-socialist" crowd in the urban areas.
The things she says are gonna keep her a sitting Congresswoman and one day might even get her a Senate seat.
This post demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly what it is that makes liberals and conservatives different. You complain that republicans wont sign on to proposed legislation for government funded assistance programs and decry Christian conservatives for "not doing anything." Your side of the aisle believes that the federal government is best positioned to provide these services which will ultimately be funded by tax dollars.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I, and many conservatives like me, find the federal government to be an incredibly inefficient bureaucracy that is ill suited to serving the needs of everyday people and feel churches and local agencies are best suited for that work. For that very reason, I vote for representatives who will not sign on to bloated federal spending on social welfare programs and instead heavily invest my money locally, primarily through my church, for providing these services. My wife and I give over $1,500 per month, nearly $20k per year, to my church to support children, families, young mothers, etc.
If you had your way, my taxes would increase leaving me with less money to invest locally to help those in my community while the federal government redirects my taxes wherever they see fit. As has been pointed out on this thread, Christians give exponentially more money to charity. It does not equate to "not doing anything." We just don't agree with you on how we go about supporting these causes.
This past Sunday alone........our Church raised additional thousands of dollars for the local women's shelter.Forest Bueller said:bear2be2 said:What part of "I see no benefit in any sort of dick measuring contest" did you not understand? Believe whatever you want about me. I don't care.Canada2017 said:Whoa there ....have read your comments for years.bear2be2 said:I don't claim superiority. I regularly fall short of the same high standards I hold for myself. But I do try to live as Christ has called me to live with regards to caring for those in need. And that informs my decision-making and actions. There are specific ways that I've shared here that I don't want to get into now. I see no benefit in any sort of dick measuring contest.Canada2017 said:Exactly how are you entitled to hold anyone to a 'higher standard ' ?bear2be2 said:I don't have a woke crowd. I don't claim the liberals as my tribe or defend their lack of action in this area at all.Canada2017 said:bear2be2 said:Arbitrary standard? My standard matches the one every Christian adoption agency has. I want all kids to have a loving/stable home. That that standard is viewed as radical here is telling.Canada2017 said:Amusingbear2be2 said:I don't ignore that. I've addressed it multiple times on this thread.Canada2017 said:You have already been informed that Christians adopt far more kids than non Christians .......contribute far more money to charities than non Christians .bear2be2 said:Nope. I don't understand why there are more than 117,000 kids waiting to be adopted and more than 1,000 kids aging out of foster care every year in a country with more than 200 million professing Christians.JXL said:bear2be2 said:That's not my point. My point is that those of you who claim to be pro-life need to start putting your money where your mouth is.Mothra said:So, put them down like stray dogs then.bear2be2 said:I'm no great fan of abortion as a practice, but you can already see the practical effects this ruling will have in places where access is heavily restricted. And the most damaging outcomes will skew, as these things always do, toward the most disadvantaged populations among us.BaylorJacket said:303Bear said:SCOTUS is not meant to uphold majority sentiment. If abortion is so popular, there should be no risk at all as every state will quickly codify it.BaylorJacket said:
It is a sad day - an unelected court of judges overturns a policy supported by nearly 70% of Americans.
If anything, this perfectly illustrates the danger of courts creating positive rights rather than protecting people by protecting them from government overreach through negative rights.
Due to the supremacy clause, congress could pass federal laws codifying all of the supposedly "threatened" rights and no state could countermand that. That no congress in 50 years bothered to do so with abortion is interesting, and ultimately why this ruling even matters at all.
I completely agree with you, Congress had decades to do something.
Regardless of the politics behind these decisions, I am just disheartened for especially women of poverty in red states
More than for anyone else, I'm disheartened for the thousands of children who will soon be added to the nearly half-million kids we already have in foster care -- many of whom will age out to horrific outcomes while being called a victory by politicians and the religious right.
This country doesn't have an abortion problem as much has it has an unwanted pregnancy/uncared-for child problem. And restricting abortion access will do nothing to solve that. When those who are most anti-abortion are prepared to make contraceptives available to all who want/need them and will take on the burden themselves of fostering and adopting all of the children who need stable homes in this country, I'll take the term "pro-life" more seriously. But pro-birth policies create and exacerbate as many problems as they solve.
Nope.
Y'all say you care about children. Prove it.
Y'all've done a really ****ty job of proving it since Roe. I have my doubts that anything will change now.
In other words, you're saying you don't understand why conservative Christian's don't create organizations like this:
https://livingalternatives.org/
Why do you choose to ignore this ?
First, I don't give Christians credit for doing something they should be doing. If they weren't doing more, their religion would have no functional value to society.
And second, they're still clearly not doing enough. While I appreciate every person chooses to foster or adopt -- except for the abusive *******s who put some of these kids through hell -- only a minute percentage of professing Christians have actually taken that step. And it wouldn't take many more to step up and erase this problem entirely.
If you're going to claim to care about these kids, there are ways to show it. One of the biggest is to take care of the kids already being born into adverse conditions. We've done a piss poor job of that as a country.
You feel entitled to demand that Christians meet your undefined ...completely arbitrary standard that your own woke crowd doesn't even come close to matching .
Gotta luv the internet .
Christians do more....far more ...than your woke crowd .
Period.
Yet you ignore the relative non performance of your woke crowd .
BTW I have long been aware of many Christian families who have adopted children from other cultures. And some wish to adopt even more .
There is a long waiting period in most cases.
And you mentioned CHRISTIAN adoption agencies.......suspect because CHRISTIAN adoption agencies outnumber those of any atheist organization .
The difference is a) they don't claim to be pro-life and b) they don't have a call from their savior to care for the orphaned. Christians do. So I'm going to hold them to a higher standard. So did Christ and Paul in the New Testament. That's kind of the deal they signed onto.
Do you contribute $ 10,000 plus yearly to various charities ? Volunteer at homeless shelters for years ?
Do you pick up 72 year old wheelchair bound stroke patients and take them to breakfast ?
Please enlighten me on the source of your superiority .
I just want children in foster care to be taken care of. This country has too much to leave so many behind.
Most certainly claim a higher standard...after all you berate Christians for not doing 'enough' all the time .
I am merely asking what do you donate...DIRECTLY ...toward helping the poor, the aged, the homeless. ?
How many hours per week do you spend...DIRECTLY ..... helping those that are in pain ?
Good gracious guy, it is all you do. The measuring contest is threaded into almost every post you make, and it is always condemning of those that do by far the most per capita for those in need.
I only point out Pro-life evangelicals walk the walk more than any other groups, because the liberals who condemn them, do much less themselves.
3 weeks ago over $ 13,000 was donated by our congregation for a Catholic women's shelter / orphanage in the Philippines. The totally last minute appeal made by a soft spoken, diminutive Filipino nun had everyone digging into their wallets for the special 2nd collection .
Such 2nd collections are common at our Church .
Well, if they were on the fence. The leak and the boorish behavior afterward showed they had to go through with it. If they didn't they would be bullied on every subsequent ruling. Whoever leaked it, really made sure it would happen.william said:>>Mothra said:
5-4, according to Drudge.
The U.S. Supreme Court has overturned the landmark Roe v. Wade decision in a much-anticipated ruling Friday in one of its biggest decisions this term.
The court voted 6-3, along party lines, in the case of Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, which involved Mississippi's ban on abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy.
It appeared that the panel's conservative majority of justices was ready to overturn nearly 50 years of established abortion rights after last month's leaked draft decision indicated as much.
<<
303Bear said:It is very easy to not get pregnant. It is very easy to not get a girl pregnant. It might be harder to take responsibility for consequences of getting a girl pregnant, but that is life. As I said, actions have consequences (note that nowhere did I ever make a distinction between men and women, that was something you brought up entirely on your own).Porteroso said:303Bear said:You argue well against a lot of arguments I never made. Carry on.Porteroso said:303Bear said:Abortion makes the murder legal for convenience. They are radically different. Being snide and obtuse is an odd choice unless you actually believe that having a child is some kind of punishment sentence, in which case I am sorry you have such a twisted view of humanity.Porteroso said:303Bear said:So then why do we have laws and punish people for breaking them? If you are 18 and kill someone you are held responsible. What makes a decision to engage in an activity that could lead to a child different?Porteroso said:
Yes, the ole "let's just tell 18 year Olds about abstinence, that'll do the trick!"
The personal responsibility argument is such an insane theory, it falls apart after about 30 seconds of thinking how much personal responsibility humanity has ever had.
Yes, sex and murder should be treated equally under the law, you're really onto something.
Comparing the 2 really highlights how insane it is.
You can "insert any law here" and it is the same. Actions have consequences. To suggest certain (well known) consequences should excused at the cost of a life for the convenience of the person who took the action is the height of human hubris.
Being pregnant when you don't want to be can indeed be a sentence of punishment. We have posters calling pregnant women whoores. Especially in the South, it is a stain upon your social appearance and status. Being pregnant outside marriage drastically limits social options, and fundamentalist parents still give their kids hell for it.
If you are going to want abortion to be a crime, you need to also hold the position that any man getting a woman pregnant with no plan to raise that child should be punished too, if the woman chooses abortion. I could respect that, because it's at least consistent, and treats both sexes the same.
But telling women to close their legs is simply not acceptable. Putting the entire blame and shame on women for unwanted pregnancies is unacceptable.
Takes 2 to tango.
It's part of a larger argument, but mostly directed at your comment about unwanted pregnancies being a punishment. That being a twisted world view. I don't disagree entirely, but if you're really not ready, it's certainly not good or fun. And I put men in there too, plenty of men about pissed their pants when the girl says she's pregnant.
Because consequences are not good / are difficult / don't align with a life plan, should not mean it is ok to end a life to ease the burden of such consequences. Full stop and I will not change my mind on that (with the caveat I have noted in several other threads that there are times when abortions are 100% medically indicated and should always be allowed - those instances are, thankfully, rare and do not make up a statically significant portion of the abortions that have been performed in this country in the last 50 years, or ever).
I didn't realize anyone needed to define the fact that a discussion about abortion means a discussion about women. You may have a gender identity thing going on, but I refer to the biological sex. You are trying to manufacture ammo for your argument out of a twig and spit. Not gonna work out for you.
You are making an ivory tower argument. Probably male, you want to pretend that throughput history, humanity has proven itself capable of avoiding mistakes through the practice of personal responsibility. I say pretend, because I'll assume you have some basic knowledge of the fall of man.
The argument is not whether unwanted pregnancies can be avoided or not. That would be stupid, but here you are, making it. I just won't engage, except to ridicule the stupidity of it.
The only argument that matters is when a person is a person. I will admit I don't know the answer, but I'm not really interested in whether you think you know or not, because I know nobody has a good argument. It's an impossible thing to know, personhood largely being a construct of civilization, despite a person's right to live being considered a natural right by the founders, and therefore undefined by the Constitution.
I'm halfway interested in whether your arguments are capable of engaging with my point of view, which is the practical and the legal, but I know better than to get my hopes up.
I don't think the message is about abortion at all.Porteroso said:303Bear said:It is very easy to not get pregnant. It is very easy to not get a girl pregnant. It might be harder to take responsibility for consequences of getting a girl pregnant, but that is life. As I said, actions have consequences (note that nowhere did I ever make a distinction between men and women, that was something you brought up entirely on your own).Porteroso said:303Bear said:You argue well against a lot of arguments I never made. Carry on.Porteroso said:303Bear said:Abortion makes the murder legal for convenience. They are radically different. Being snide and obtuse is an odd choice unless you actually believe that having a child is some kind of punishment sentence, in which case I am sorry you have such a twisted view of humanity.Porteroso said:303Bear said:So then why do we have laws and punish people for breaking them? If you are 18 and kill someone you are held responsible. What makes a decision to engage in an activity that could lead to a child different?Porteroso said:
Yes, the ole "let's just tell 18 year Olds about abstinence, that'll do the trick!"
The personal responsibility argument is such an insane theory, it falls apart after about 30 seconds of thinking how much personal responsibility humanity has ever had.
Yes, sex and murder should be treated equally under the law, you're really onto something.
Comparing the 2 really highlights how insane it is.
You can "insert any law here" and it is the same. Actions have consequences. To suggest certain (well known) consequences should excused at the cost of a life for the convenience of the person who took the action is the height of human hubris.
Being pregnant when you don't want to be can indeed be a sentence of punishment. We have posters calling pregnant women whoores. Especially in the South, it is a stain upon your social appearance and status. Being pregnant outside marriage drastically limits social options, and fundamentalist parents still give their kids hell for it.
If you are going to want abortion to be a crime, you need to also hold the position that any man getting a woman pregnant with no plan to raise that child should be punished too, if the woman chooses abortion. I could respect that, because it's at least consistent, and treats both sexes the same.
But telling women to close their legs is simply not acceptable. Putting the entire blame and shame on women for unwanted pregnancies is unacceptable.
Takes 2 to tango.
It's part of a larger argument, but mostly directed at your comment about unwanted pregnancies being a punishment. That being a twisted world view. I don't disagree entirely, but if you're really not ready, it's certainly not good or fun. And I put men in there too, plenty of men about pissed their pants when the girl says she's pregnant.
Because consequences are not good / are difficult / don't align with a life plan, should not mean it is ok to end a life to ease the burden of such consequences. Full stop and I will not change my mind on that (with the caveat I have noted in several other threads that there are times when abortions are 100% medically indicated and should always be allowed - those instances are, thankfully, rare and do not make up a statically significant portion of the abortions that have been performed in this country in the last 50 years, or ever).
I didn't realize anyone needed to define the fact that a discussion about abortion means a discussion about women. You may have a gender identity thing going on, but I refer to the biological sex. You are trying to manufacture ammo for your argument out of a twig and spit. Not gonna work out for you.
You are making an ivory tower argument. Probably male, you want to pretend that throughput history, humanity has proven itself capable of avoiding mistakes through the practice of personal responsibility. I say pretend, because I'll assume you have some basic knowledge of the fall of man.
The argument is not whether unwanted pregnancies can be avoided or not. That would be stupid, but here you are, making it. I just won't engage, except to ridicule the stupidity of it.
The only argument that matters is when a person is a person. I will admit I don't know the answer, but I'm not really interested in whether you think you know or not, because I know nobody has a good argument. It's an impossible thing to know, personhood largely being a construct of civilization, despite a person's right to live being considered a natural right by the founders, and therefore undefined by the Constitution.
I'm halfway interested in whether your arguments are capable of engaging with my point of view, which is the practical and the legal, but I know better than to get my hopes up.
I think it is the Court saying that bad law will be overturned. Don't use the Court to set policy. The Court basically told Congress to do their job and make law, not only abortion but immigration.
I think the message was received as Biden is now talking about codifying it. THAT IS WHERE IT SHOULD HAPPEN IN CONGRESS BY AMENDMENT OR LAW IF IT IS THAT IMPORTANT. Not in a reach of a case under the 14th Amendment.
Per Adam Kinzinger:303Bear said:Did you really try and deflect by bringing up Charlottesville and January 6th? Wow.J.B.Katz said:I am tired, tired, tired of reading propaganda about "leftist" violence when Republicans are enabling mass shootings, include a couple of really horrific ones in your home state at a church and a school, and when providers who performed LEGAL abortions have been murdered at their homes and at centers where they provided reproductive health services.303Bear said:I will believe you care when left-wing terrorists stop fire bombing the very centers you demand the GOP set up.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I don't condone any sort of violence.
But the narrative that all violence anywhere is caused by leftists, pro-choice demonstrators, BLM and ANTIFA is just bull***** Some of the violence you decry were right-wingers masquerading as BLM or ANTIFA.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/
And where was your mouth when rightwingers were marching in the streets of Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us?"
Running over and killing a young woman? (At least that guy will be in prison for a very long time?)
Storming the capital--violence you and other hard-right Republicans have done everything in your power to gaslight out of existence when it clearly happened, people were clearly armed, and some of your own representatives, including Mike Pence, were physically endangered by it.
Shame on you.
Edit to respond to your "point" since I am being charitable. 30 seconds of googling and turns out there have been 9 doctors or PP employees killed in 7 attacks, most recently the Colorado Springs PP clinic shooting in 2015 that left 3 dead (the suspect was found unfit to stand trial and is still incarcerated). 8 other doctors/clinicians wounded (including one doctor who was shot in 1993 and then shot again and killed in 2009) and 45 attacks or attempted attacks on clinics since 1973. Or just less than one attack a year on average.
No murder or violence is justified, but hardly an endemic "right wing violence wave".
Edit #2 - Upon further googling, there were ~27 attacks nationwide on crisis pregnancy centers since May 2022 when the draft opinion was leaked. This does not account for all of the attacks over the weekend after the opinion was released - cannot get a consistent number on that yet.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/19/jan-6-kinzinger-ginni-thomas/?utm_campaign=wp_todays_headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_headlines&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F3725c09%2F62b04549cfe8a21601b55d90%2F596995e39bbc0f6d71c4d13f%2F15%2F64%2F62b04549cfe8a21601b55d90&wp_cu=8af9fc0e2805ae5e992df196a72fe40d%7C6bd72e38-385a-11e0-a478-1231380f446b
One of two Republican members of the House committee investigating the attack on the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, starkly warned Sunday that his own party's lies could feed additional violence.
"There is violence in the future, I'm going to tell you," Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) said on ABC's "This Week" program. "And until we get a grip on telling people the truth, we can't expect any differently."
Kinzinger, who defied party leadership by serving on the Democratic-led committee, described an alarming message he received at home in the mail several days ago threatening to execute him, his wife and their 5-month-old baby. "I'd never seen or had anything like that. It was sent from the local area," he said.
Lots of words responding to things never said or ridiculing me for not responding to things you never said until the post above (nowhere have you mentioned personhood before now, at least not in response to me). But cool, I guess I am the idiot since you won't engage on the terms you set forth previously.Porteroso said:303Bear said:It is very easy to not get pregnant. It is very easy to not get a girl pregnant. It might be harder to take responsibility for consequences of getting a girl pregnant, but that is life. As I said, actions have consequences (note that nowhere did I ever make a distinction between men and women, that was something you brought up entirely on your own).Porteroso said:303Bear said:You argue well against a lot of arguments I never made. Carry on.Porteroso said:303Bear said:Abortion makes the murder legal for convenience. They are radically different. Being snide and obtuse is an odd choice unless you actually believe that having a child is some kind of punishment sentence, in which case I am sorry you have such a twisted view of humanity.Porteroso said:303Bear said:So then why do we have laws and punish people for breaking them? If you are 18 and kill someone you are held responsible. What makes a decision to engage in an activity that could lead to a child different?Porteroso said:
Yes, the ole "let's just tell 18 year Olds about abstinence, that'll do the trick!"
The personal responsibility argument is such an insane theory, it falls apart after about 30 seconds of thinking how much personal responsibility humanity has ever had.
Yes, sex and murder should be treated equally under the law, you're really onto something.
Comparing the 2 really highlights how insane it is.
You can "insert any law here" and it is the same. Actions have consequences. To suggest certain (well known) consequences should excused at the cost of a life for the convenience of the person who took the action is the height of human hubris.
Being pregnant when you don't want to be can indeed be a sentence of punishment. We have posters calling pregnant women whoores. Especially in the South, it is a stain upon your social appearance and status. Being pregnant outside marriage drastically limits social options, and fundamentalist parents still give their kids hell for it.
If you are going to want abortion to be a crime, you need to also hold the position that any man getting a woman pregnant with no plan to raise that child should be punished too, if the woman chooses abortion. I could respect that, because it's at least consistent, and treats both sexes the same.
But telling women to close their legs is simply not acceptable. Putting the entire blame and shame on women for unwanted pregnancies is unacceptable.
Takes 2 to tango.
It's part of a larger argument, but mostly directed at your comment about unwanted pregnancies being a punishment. That being a twisted world view. I don't disagree entirely, but if you're really not ready, it's certainly not good or fun. And I put men in there too, plenty of men about pissed their pants when the girl says she's pregnant.
Because consequences are not good / are difficult / don't align with a life plan, should not mean it is ok to end a life to ease the burden of such consequences. Full stop and I will not change my mind on that (with the caveat I have noted in several other threads that there are times when abortions are 100% medically indicated and should always be allowed - those instances are, thankfully, rare and do not make up a statically significant portion of the abortions that have been performed in this country in the last 50 years, or ever).
I didn't realize anyone needed to define the fact that a discussion about abortion means a discussion about women. You may have a gender identity thing going on, but I refer to the biological sex. You are trying to manufacture ammo for your argument out of a twig and spit. Not gonna work out for you.
You are making an ivory tower argument. Probably male, you want to pretend that throughput history, humanity has proven itself capable of avoiding mistakes through the practice of personal responsibility. I say pretend, because I'll assume you have some basic knowledge of the fall of man.
The argument is not whether unwanted pregnancies can be avoided or not. That would be stupid, but here you are, making it. I just won't engage, except to ridicule the stupidity of it.
The only argument that matters is when a person is a person. I will admit I don't know the answer, but I'm not really interested in whether you think you know or not, because I know nobody has a good argument. It's an impossible thing to know, personhood largely being a construct of civilization, despite a person's right to live being considered a natural right by the founders, and therefore undefined by the Constitution.
I'm halfway interested in whether your arguments are capable of engaging with my point of view, which is the practical and the legal, but I know better than to get my hopes up.
Difficult to engage with something (e.g., your point of view), when you dont set one forth.
Clearly we are not going to agree, or even be able to discuss a topic since you bring up a different one in each of your responses such as they are. Good day.
Relevance to discussion in this thread?J.B.Katz said:Per Adam Kinzinger:303Bear said:Did you really try and deflect by bringing up Charlottesville and January 6th? Wow.J.B.Katz said:I am tired, tired, tired of reading propaganda about "leftist" violence when Republicans are enabling mass shootings, include a couple of really horrific ones in your home state at a church and a school, and when providers who performed LEGAL abortions have been murdered at their homes and at centers where they provided reproductive health services.303Bear said:I will believe you care when left-wing terrorists stop fire bombing the very centers you demand the GOP set up.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I don't condone any sort of violence.
But the narrative that all violence anywhere is caused by leftists, pro-choice demonstrators, BLM and ANTIFA is just bull***** Some of the violence you decry were right-wingers masquerading as BLM or ANTIFA.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/
And where was your mouth when rightwingers were marching in the streets of Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us?"
Running over and killing a young woman? (At least that guy will be in prison for a very long time?)
Storming the capital--violence you and other hard-right Republicans have done everything in your power to gaslight out of existence when it clearly happened, people were clearly armed, and some of your own representatives, including Mike Pence, were physically endangered by it.
Shame on you.
Edit to respond to your "point" since I am being charitable. 30 seconds of googling and turns out there have been 9 doctors or PP employees killed in 7 attacks, most recently the Colorado Springs PP clinic shooting in 2015 that left 3 dead (the suspect was found unfit to stand trial and is still incarcerated). 8 other doctors/clinicians wounded (including one doctor who was shot in 1993 and then shot again and killed in 2009) and 45 attacks or attempted attacks on clinics since 1973. Or just less than one attack a year on average.
No murder or violence is justified, but hardly an endemic "right wing violence wave".
Edit #2 - Upon further googling, there were ~27 attacks nationwide on crisis pregnancy centers since May 2022 when the draft opinion was leaked. This does not account for all of the attacks over the weekend after the opinion was released - cannot get a consistent number on that yet.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/19/jan-6-kinzinger-ginni-thomas/?utm_campaign=wp_todays_headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_headlines&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F3725c09%2F62b04549cfe8a21601b55d90%2F596995e39bbc0f6d71c4d13f%2F15%2F64%2F62b04549cfe8a21601b55d90&wp_cu=8af9fc0e2805ae5e992df196a72fe40d%7C6bd72e38-385a-11e0-a478-1231380f446b
One of two Republican members of the House committee investigating the attack on the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, starkly warned Sunday that his own party's lies could feed additional violence.
"There is violence in the future, I'm going to tell you," Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) said on ABC's "This Week" program. "And until we get a grip on telling people the truth, we can't expect any differently."
Kinzinger, who defied party leadership by serving on the Democratic-led committee, described an alarming message he received at home in the mail several days ago threatening to execute him, his wife and their 5-month-old baby. "I'd never seen or had anything like that. It was sent from the local area," he said.
If I had my way, your taxes would likely decrease, but the cap on SS taxes would be eliminated, to make that program solvent, and people who make over $400K a year would pay more or actually pay taxes, since high-income people currently, as Warren Buffett famously pointed out when he noted that his secretary paid much more of her income in taxes than he did, pay less taxes and employees who make a tiny fraction of what they make.FormerFlash said:This post demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly what it is that makes liberals and conservatives different. You complain that republicans wont sign on to proposed legislation for government funded assistance programs and decry Christian conservatives for "not doing anything." Your side of the aisle believes that the federal government is best positioned to provide these services which will ultimately be funded by tax dollars.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I, and many conservatives like me, find the federal government to be an incredibly inefficient bureaucracy that is ill suited to serving the needs of everyday people and feel churches and local agencies are best suited for that work. For that very reason, I vote for representatives who will not sign on to bloated federal spending on social welfare programs and instead heavily invest my money locally, primarily through my church, for providing these services. My wife and I give over $1,500 per month, nearly $20k per year, to my church to support children, families, young mothers, etc.
If you had your way, my taxes would increase leaving me with less money to invest locally to help those in my community while the federal government redirects my taxes wherever they see fit. As has been pointed out on this thread, Christians give exponentially more money to charity. It does not equate to "not doing anything." We just don't agree with you on how we go about supporting these causes.
Wanting the government to invest in low-income children (and by extension, their mothers, since fathers are often absent) should be bipartisan.
The fact that it's not puts the lie to Republicans' claim to being the party of personal morality. What Republicans are is the party of moral authority. They want to tell people when they can start having sex (at marriage) and who they can have sex with (only people of the opposite sex). For a party that supposedly supports small government, that's incredibly controlling (not to mention that it has never worked).
And there's only one reason Republicans have started supported that level of govt intrusion into people's private lives: To pick up the evangelical vote. It's a twofer: evangelicals have never been kind or charitable people or valued women. They have a long record of relegating women to second-class status, while mouthing platitudes about how women's submission to men "elevates" them b/c men have a sacred obligation. The Guidepost report shows exactly how much that sacred obligation has historically been respected by church leaders.
I know you're now absolutely thrilled that the Court has enabled you to impose your religious beliefs about sex and abortion on every women (and the "state's rights" argument is totally specious, as the coming fight over a federal law codifying abortion rights will demonstrate).
Not to mention that "state's rights" was the argument used to support slavery, and that some on this forum still claim the Civil War was over state's rights rather than slavery when the only right the fight involved was the right to own slaves and work them to death. Now that same logic is being deployed to minimize the damage the Court has done to its own credibility and to women nationwide by saying that their state government can literally control every healthcare decision they make--because everything you do, including take a Tylenol, affects the fetus--the instant an egg is fertilized.
I am waiting to see evangelical churches start preaching to boys and men about keeping their pants zipped, how they bear responsibility not engaging in premarital says (for which women have historically born the entire blame--and when everyone privately jokes about getting lucky and no male is truly expected to be a virgin on HIS wedding night) and for church leaders to take seriously allegations of abuse in their congregations, including domestic abuse, instead of telling women they must submit to marital rape and that any abuse that occurs in their marraige is their fault for not being obedient enough. I'm not optimistic I will ever see any progress on that point, in part because the Court has just made it clear that women are such second-class citizens they don't have what Amnesty International considers a fundamental human right--agency and control of their own bodies.
The idea that my state government will control women's healthcare decisions is chilling. These are not men who care about women. One encouraged both his wife and his mistress, whom he impregnated at the same time, to have abortions--and he paid for them. Another abused several high school girls while he was a teacher--and has acknowledged it. When women pay all the consequences and men pay none, the balance of power supports abuse.
1. You don't need religion to tell you that abortion is the taking of a human life. You just need basic biology and science.J.B.Katz said:FormerFlash said:This post demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly what it is that makes liberals and conservatives different. You complain that republicans wont sign on to proposed legislation for government funded assistance programs and decry Christian conservatives for "not doing anything." Your side of the aisle believes that the federal government is best positioned to provide these services which will ultimately be funded by tax dollars.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I, and many conservatives like me, find the federal government to be an incredibly inefficient bureaucracy that is ill suited to serving the needs of everyday people and feel churches and local agencies are best suited for that work. For that very reason, I vote for representatives who will not sign on to bloated federal spending on social welfare programs and instead heavily invest my money locally, primarily through my church, for providing these services. My wife and I give over $1,500 per month, nearly $20k per year, to my church to support children, families, young mothers, etc.
If you had your way, my taxes would increase leaving me with less money to invest locally to help those in my community while the federal government redirects my taxes wherever they see fit. As has been pointed out on this thread, Christians give exponentially more money to charity. It does not equate to "not doing anything." We just don't agree with you on how we go about supporting these causes.
I know you're now absolutely thrilled that the Court has enabled you to impose your religious beliefs about sex and abortion on every women (and the "state's rights" argument is totally specious, as the coming fight over a federal law codifying abortion rights will demonstrate).
Not to mention that "state's rights" was the argument used to support slavery,
"During weeks 13-16 the fetal heartbeat may now be audible through an instrument called a doppler. The fingers and toes are well-defined. Eyelids, eyebrows, eyelashes, nails and hair are formed. Teeth and bones become denser. The fetus can even suck his or her thumb, yawn, stretch and make faces.
The nervous system has starting to function. The reproductive organs and genitalia are now fully developed, and your doctor can see on ultrasound if the fetus will be designated male or female at birth."
2. Actually the States rights argument was used by Northern States in the 1850s to resist slavery. Dred Scott vs Sandford being the case that galvanized the North because they said it was infringing on the rights of the States to ban slavery inside their sovereign territory. And the fugitive slave law of 1850 was massively resisted by Northern States as an issue of States rights. While the pro-slavery side argument was that the Constitution itself protected slavery and it could be expanded everywhere because it was a Constitutional right (until the 13th amendment) and that all States had to participle in the Fugitive slave law.
[In February 1855, Michigan's legislature passed a law prohibiting county jails from being used to detain recaptured slaves, directing county prosecutors to defend recaptured slaves, and entitling recaptured slaves to habeas corpus and trail by jury. Other states to pass their own personal liberty laws include Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Northern States in general reacted with mass resistance and attempted to nullify the law.]
[March 24, 1859, a leading statesman who would soon find himself fighting in the Civil War gave a speech titled "State Rights." In it, he warned of federal "usurpation" of state sovereignty on the issue of slavery, and he urged states to nullify national laws that threatened their autonomy. Urging his listeners to stand firm against an overbearing Washington, he declared: "Here is the battlefield, every man to his gun!"
The speaker was not Jefferson Davis, or some other Confederate statesman, but Carl Schurz, a leading abolitionist of the nineteenth century. Schurz would go on to serve as a Union officer during the Civil War]
[During the first half of the nineteenth century, pro-slavery politicians were much more likely to rely on federal power than on states' rights. The United States Constitution implicitly permitted slavery, while the "three-fifths clause" boosted the congressional delegations and Electoral College votes of the slave states. Federal law guaranteed the return of fugitive slaves to their masters. ]
"We are for...not interfering with slavery where it is, but shaping the policy of the country so as to prevent its expansion & leaving it as the Constitution has left it, for the States where it exists, to manage it as shall seem to them best."
-Sen. Trumbull (R-IL) 8/7/1858
"the question is of the right of free laborers to the soil of their States...We object to the slave. We don't want him about. We insist that he shall not be forced upon us."
-John Greiner (R-OH)
Imagine a young couple wanting to adopt is your trigger warning...
from the director of Get Out and Us comes his most audacious horror yet... pic.twitter.com/kHM7nzef0g
— Matt Oswalt (@MattOswaltVA) June 26, 2022
Your lack of self awareness is astoundingJ.B.Katz said:I am tired, tired, tired of reading propaganda about "leftist" violence when Republicans are enabling mass shootings, include a couple of really horrific ones in your home state at a church and a school, and when providers who performed LEGAL abortions have been murdered at their homes and at centers where they provided reproductive health services.303Bear said:I will believe you care when left-wing terrorists stop fire bombing the very centers you demand the GOP set up.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I don't condone any sort of violence.
But the narrative that all violence anywhere is caused by leftists, pro-choice demonstrators, BLM and ANTIFA is just bull***** Some of the violence you decry were right-wingers masquerading as BLM or ANTIFA.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/
And where was your mouth when rightwingers were marching in the streets of Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us?"
Running over and killing a young woman? (At least that guy will be in prison for a very long time?)
Storming the capital--violence you and other hard-right Republicans have done everything in your power to gaslight out of existence when it clearly happened, people were clearly armed, and some of your own representatives, including Mike Pence, were physically endangered by it.
Shame on you.
So, is jinxy just another russian bot? It would be sad if a real live person was that clueless and stupid.303Bear said:Did you really try and deflect by bringing up Charlottesville and January 6th? Wow.J.B.Katz said:I am tired, tired, tired of reading propaganda about "leftist" violence when Republicans are enabling mass shootings, include a couple of really horrific ones in your home state at a church and a school, and when providers who performed LEGAL abortions have been murdered at their homes and at centers where they provided reproductive health services.303Bear said:I will believe you care when left-wing terrorists stop fire bombing the very centers you demand the GOP set up.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I don't condone any sort of violence.
But the narrative that all violence anywhere is caused by leftists, pro-choice demonstrators, BLM and ANTIFA is just bull***** Some of the violence you decry were right-wingers masquerading as BLM or ANTIFA.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/
And where was your mouth when rightwingers were marching in the streets of Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us?"
Running over and killing a young woman? (At least that guy will be in prison for a very long time?)
Storming the capital--violence you and other hard-right Republicans have done everything in your power to gaslight out of existence when it clearly happened, people were clearly armed, and some of your own representatives, including Mike Pence, were physically endangered by it.
Shame on you.
Edit to respond to your "point" since I am being charitable. 30 seconds of googling and turns out there have been 9 doctors or PP employees killed in 7 attacks, most recently the Colorado Springs PP clinic shooting in 2015 that left 3 dead (the suspect was found unfit to stand trial and is still incarcerated). 8 other doctors/clinicians wounded (including one doctor who was shot in 1993 and then shot again and killed in 2009) and 45 attacks or attempted attacks on clinics since 1973. Or just less than one attack a year on average.
No murder or violence is justified, but hardly an endemic "right wing violence wave".
Edit #2 - Upon further googling, there were ~27 attacks nationwide on crisis pregnancy centers since May 2022 when the draft opinion was leaked. This does not account for all of the attacks over the weekend after the opinion was released - cannot get a consistent number on that yet.
Has possessed the same blind spot for years.Rawhide said:Your lack of self awareness is astoundingJ.B.Katz said:I am tired, tired, tired of reading propaganda about "leftist" violence when Republicans are enabling mass shootings, include a couple of really horrific ones in your home state at a church and a school, and when providers who performed LEGAL abortions have been murdered at their homes and at centers where they provided reproductive health services.303Bear said:I will believe you care when left-wing terrorists stop fire bombing the very centers you demand the GOP set up.J.B.Katz said:
For years, "reasonable" pro-lifers have fed us this "jump and we'll build the parachute on the way down" promise that conservatives will start taking care of families the moment abortion is over b/c they've had to expend all their energy they'd have otherwise devoted to child welfare on opposing abortion.
All this despite the fact that we - me, you, everybody - all know that conservatives could have, for years, fruitfully worked with Dems on such legislation if they wanted it and that, as far as the eye can see, no GOP legislator anywhere seems to have any such thing on their agenda.
I propose the following:
In one year's time, Republicans should issue a news release detailing all the ways in which the conservative movement has built the social safety net infrastructure they have promised to support all the babies, including rape babies, they are forcing women to carry to term. If they can show substantial development in that area - and it is possible, if the GOP really wants to do this, then Dems would certainly line up - then I will apologize on this forum and vote a straight ticket Republican for the next 10 years.
But if they can't show that the GOP has suddenly become the defenders of vulnerable and disproportionately minority mothers in need of help, then they should publicly apologize and retire from politics for pushing a vision they know Republican politicians will never put forward and Republican voters will never support
Anybody want to bet on the GOP becoming the party of the women who have always been sent to the barn to give birth alone and use a manger because the system had no room at the inn? (The 3 wise men bearing gifts, especially the one with gold, was certainly not a Republican.)
I don't condone any sort of violence.
But the narrative that all violence anywhere is caused by leftists, pro-choice demonstrators, BLM and ANTIFA is just bull***** Some of the violence you decry were right-wingers masquerading as BLM or ANTIFA.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/
And where was your mouth when rightwingers were marching in the streets of Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us?"
Running over and killing a young woman? (At least that guy will be in prison for a very long time?)
Storming the capital--violence you and other hard-right Republicans have done everything in your power to gaslight out of existence when it clearly happened, people were clearly armed, and some of your own representatives, including Mike Pence, were physically endangered by it.
Shame on you.
And at this point there is zero chance the light switch finally comes on .
Porteroso said:303Bear said:It is very easy to not get pregnant. It is very easy to not get a girl pregnant. It might be harder to take responsibility for consequences of getting a girl pregnant, but that is life. As I said, actions have consequences (note that nowhere did I ever make a distinction between men and women, that was something you brought up entirely on your own).Porteroso said:303Bear said:You argue well against a lot of arguments I never made. Carry on.Porteroso said:303Bear said:Abortion makes the murder legal for convenience. They are radically different. Being snide and obtuse is an odd choice unless you actually believe that having a child is some kind of punishment sentence, in which case I am sorry you have such a twisted view of humanity.Porteroso said:303Bear said:So then why do we have laws and punish people for breaking them? If you are 18 and kill someone you are held responsible. What makes a decision to engage in an activity that could lead to a child different?Porteroso said:
Yes, the ole "let's just tell 18 year Olds about abstinence, that'll do the trick!"
The personal responsibility argument is such an insane theory, it falls apart after about 30 seconds of thinking how much personal responsibility humanity has ever had.
Yes, sex and murder should be treated equally under the law, you're really onto something.
Comparing the 2 really highlights how insane it is.
You can "insert any law here" and it is the same. Actions have consequences. To suggest certain (well known) consequences should excused at the cost of a life for the convenience of the person who took the action is the height of human hubris.
Being pregnant when you don't want to be can indeed be a sentence of punishment. We have posters calling pregnant women whoores. Especially in the South, it is a stain upon your social appearance and status. Being pregnant outside marriage drastically limits social options, and fundamentalist parents still give their kids hell for it.
If you are going to want abortion to be a crime, you need to also hold the position that any man getting a woman pregnant with no plan to raise that child should be punished too, if the woman chooses abortion. I could respect that, because it's at least consistent, and treats both sexes the same.
But telling women to close their legs is simply not acceptable. Putting the entire blame and shame on women for unwanted pregnancies is unacceptable.
Takes 2 to tango.
It's part of a larger argument, but mostly directed at your comment about unwanted pregnancies being a punishment. That being a twisted world view. I don't disagree entirely, but if you're really not ready, it's certainly not good or fun. And I put men in there too, plenty of men about pissed their pants when the girl says she's pregnant.
Because consequences are not good / are difficult / don't align with a life plan, should not mean it is ok to end a life to ease the burden of such consequences. Full stop and I will not change my mind on that (with the caveat I have noted in several other threads that there are times when abortions are 100% medically indicated and should always be allowed - those instances are, thankfully, rare and do not make up a statically significant portion of the abortions that have been performed in this country in the last 50 years, or ever).
I didn't realize anyone needed to define the fact that a discussion about abortion means a discussion about women. You may have a gender identity thing going on, but I refer to the biological sex. You are trying to manufacture ammo for your argument out of a twig and spit. Not gonna work out for you.
You are making an ivory tower argument. Probably male, you want to pretend that throughput history, humanity has proven itself capable of avoiding mistakes through the practice of personal responsibility. I say pretend, because I'll assume you have some basic knowledge of the fall of man.
The argument is not whether unwanted pregnancies can be avoided or not. That would be stupid, but here you are, making it. I just won't engage, except to ridicule the stupidity of it.
The only argument that matters is when a person is a person. I will admit I don't know the answer, but I'm not really interested in whether you think you know or not, because I know nobody has a good argument. It's an impossible thing to know, personhood largely being a construct of civilization, despite a person's right to live being considered a natural right by the founders, and therefore undefined by the Constitution.
I'm halfway interested in whether your arguments are capable of engaging with my point of view, which is the practical and the legal, but I know better than to get my hopes up.
The only thing worse than personal responsibility at avoiding mistakes is government responsibility at avoiding mistakes, and the latter is a LOT more expensive.
Always amazed the way liberals justify abortion as a suitable response to what they perceive to be a lack of compassion by conservatives.
Our Rights DC protests at Justice Samuel Alito’s residence following Friday’s overturn of #RoeVsWade. pic.twitter.com/ddc8v5IwJi
— Tara “PoAm” Szczepanski (@TaraPoAm) June 27, 2022
These people say that 9 justices have no right to say what women do with their bodies.. what might be a surprise to them is with the Roe overturn, the justices agree..
“Mix a little foolishness with your serious plans. It is lovely to be silly at the right moment.”
–Horace
“Insomnia sharpens your math skills because you spend all night calculating how much sleep you’ll get if you’re able to ‘fall asleep right now.’ “
–Horace
“Insomnia sharpens your math skills because you spend all night calculating how much sleep you’ll get if you’re able to ‘fall asleep right now.’ “