Why Are We in Ukraine?

415,148 Views | 6279 Replies | Last: 24 min ago by The_barBEARian
Realitybites
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Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.


Realitybites
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Quote:

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.

Rape in Sweden: A Growing Concern

Sweden has a far bigger problem than this supposed future "Russian invasion". It has already been invaded by young military age males from Muslim countries. Malmo is the rape capital of Europe. But perhaps the leftist government of Sweden has to distract its population with invented enemies abroad to distract it from their obvious domestic policy failures.
boognish_bear
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sombear
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Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Putin just murders political and media opposition.
trey3216
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Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



This cannot be a serious comment. I mean, I feel for your family if this is a serious comment.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Doc Holliday
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sombear said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Putin just murders political and media opposition.
We do that too…
KaiBear
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boognish_bear said:





Interesting

Spain could easily dissolve into completely autonomous states without contributions from Russia or anyone else .

But 500 billion ?


SOLD
Redbrickbear
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sombear said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Putin just murders political and media opposition.

In enlightened Western nations we just ban political parties, strike politicians we don't like from the ballot, spy on political campaigns, imprison protestors, debank private citizens, and pass draconian "hate speech" laws.

Admittedly a softer hand of authoritarianism....but lets not throw stones at the russians...they are a simpler/dumber people who just use bullets to solve problems we use a massive unaccountable liberal administrative state to solve.
sombear
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Doc Holliday said:

sombear said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Putin just murders political and media opposition.
We do that too…
Ok Alex
The_barBEARian
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trey3216 said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



This cannot be a serious comment. I mean, I feel for your family if this is a serious comment.


Hey look it's my old buddy Trey!

Hey Trey remember how you and Crash used to call me racist all the time when I complained about all the 3rd world immigration during the Trump years?

Well you guys won the day and we our living in your ideal version of America now!

Look at all the diversity and economic benefits we are experiencing! Who needs a shared culture or sense of community? Those were relics of those 20th century neanderthals.

I'm sure you've alrdy volunteered your home to some of our wonderful new neighbors. You probably even took a paycut so your company could employ some of these fine upstanding military aged men!

Everynight the 3rd world illegals and I get together to say our prayers to saint Zelensky! I tell all those african, asian, and south american migrants that Zelensky needs all these new mansions and yachts for the holy war he is fighting against the enemies of democracy!

Ukraine's borders must remain strong and impenetrable while our own southern border must remain open and porous for America to project strength and democracy around the world!

Slava Urkaini Trey!
KaiBear
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sombear said:

Doc Holliday said:

sombear said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Putin just murders political and media opposition.
We do that too…
Ok Alex


And of course Doc is correct.

The US has a long rap sheet of executing politicians of other countries .
Doc Holliday
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sombear said:

Doc Holliday said:

sombear said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Putin just murders political and media opposition.
We do that too…
Ok Alex
Do you really think we don't meddle in foreign elections and don't have people killed in other countries for political reasons?

You can have the worldview of a 16 year old or you can grow up and realize EVERYONE is corrupt.
Doc Holliday
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whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.

Either we epically failed at providing military aid or we're delusional about capabilities.

The only conclusion I can come to is Ukraine is going to continue to fight for years, we're going to spend well over a trillion dollars and it's going to end with Ukraine being forced to give up territory. All to temporarily weaken Russia.

If that's unacceptable then you'll need a hot war with the US and the death toll will grow tenfold.
Redbrickbear
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Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war (which they told us Russia was losing)
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid (not just military we are paying to keep their whole economy afloat including retiree pensions)
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough (which they lied to us about and said that the new spring offensive would be decisive...that was 6-7 months ago and now completely forgotten)

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.


KaiBear
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Doc nailed the key ingredient.

There will be either a peace treaty or semi permanent ceasefire.

And Ukraine will have to cede some of its territory to Russia.


Billions spent and hundreds of thousands of lives lost due to the biggest US foreign policy blunder since WW2.

Thank you president Biden.
Doc Holliday
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KaiBear said:

Doc nailed the key ingredient.

There will be either a peace treaty or semi permanent ceasefire.

And Ukraine will have to cede some of its territory to Russia.


Billions spent and hundreds of thousands of lives lost due to the biggest US foreign policy blunder since WW2.

Thank you president Biden.
It would be one thing if Ukraine was seriously kicking ass and dealing catastrophic blows to Russia…but that's not the case.

After 22 months it's not magically going to be the case.
sombear
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KaiBear said:

sombear said:

Doc Holliday said:

sombear said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Putin just murders political and media opposition.
We do that too…
Ok Alex


And of course Doc is correct.

The US has a long rap sheet of executing politicians of other countries .
Goal post moved
sombear
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Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war (which they told us Russia was losing)
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid (not just military we are paying to keep their whole economy afloat including retiree pensions)
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough (which they lied to us about and said that the new spring offensive would be decisive...that was 6-7 months ago and now completely forgotten)

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.



Some fair points, but as many or more on your side claimed Russia would take over all of Ukraine in 48 - 72 hours. Then a month. Then 3 months. Then 6 months. And so on. And for the last 6 months, it's been Ukraine will be beaten all the way back any day now.

Instead, what we have is basically a stalemate.
KaiBear
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sombear said:

KaiBear said:

sombear said:

Doc Holliday said:

sombear said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Putin just murders political and media opposition.
We do that too…
Ok Alex


And of course Doc is correct.

The US has a long rap sheet of executing politicians of other countries .
Goal post moved


This comment makes no sense.

A poster accurately mentions that the US has a long history of doing the same executions as Putin.

That's a direct line comparison.
Redbrickbear
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sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war (which they told us Russia was losing)
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid (not just military we are paying to keep their whole economy afloat including retiree pensions)
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough (which they lied to us about and said that the new spring offensive would be decisive...that was 6-7 months ago and now completely forgotten)

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.



Some fair points, but as many or more on your side claimed Russia would take over all of Ukraine in 48 - 72 hours. Then a month. Then 3 months. Then 6 months. And so on. And for the last 6 months, it's been Ukraine will be beaten all the way back any day now.

Instead, what we have is basically a stalemate.

My side....what is my side?

And I never once said russia would take over ukraine in 48hrs

I have been surprised and how incompetent the russia military has been....but I guess stupid me for thinking the russian ruling class had spent money making their army better since the 2 Chechen Wars vs just laundry the money away to Monaco and Switzerland
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.
Hungary is using NATO positions as part of its effort to stop EU cultural agendas.

And perhaps he's looking further down the road, calculating what he believes is most likely to happen (Russia outlasting Nato in Ukraine) and making appropriate recalibrations (a dynamic I have repeatedly pointed out to you....)

Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.
If that were possible I don't think Ukraine would have been using cluster bombs against hardened Russian defenses. NYT reports that Russia is producing seven times more artillery ammo than the US and Europe combined. So best of luck with that.
sombear
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KaiBear said:

sombear said:

KaiBear said:

sombear said:

Doc Holliday said:

sombear said:

Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Putin just murders political and media opposition.
We do that too…
Ok Alex


And of course Doc is correct.

The US has a long rap sheet of executing politicians of other countries .
Goal post moved


This comment makes no sense.

A poster accurately mentions that the US has a long history of doing the same executions as Putin.

That's a direct line comparison.


Putin murders his own Russian political and media rivals.
sombear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war (which they told us Russia was losing)
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid (not just military we are paying to keep their whole economy afloat including retiree pensions)
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough (which they lied to us about and said that the new spring offensive would be decisive...that was 6-7 months ago and now completely forgotten)

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.



Some fair points, but as many or more on your side claimed Russia would take over all of Ukraine in 48 - 72 hours. Then a month. Then 3 months. Then 6 months. And so on. And for the last 6 months, it's been Ukraine will be beaten all the way back any day now.

Instead, what we have is basically a stalemate.

My side....what is my side?

And I never once said russia would take over ukraine in 48hrs

I have been surprised and how incompetent the russia military has been....but I guess stupid me for thinking the russian ruling class had spent money making their army better since the 2 Chechen Wars vs just laundry the money away to Monaco and Switzerland


Your side as in those opposed to us supporting Ukraine from the outset. Many of the experts your side often cited wrongly predicted everything I laid out and a lot more.
whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Realitybites said:

Quote:

dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).

Well I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting what killing a half million people was all about.

Just like Obiden's Medusa is admitting why our soldiers are dying.

"3 US Troops Died Fighting For 'This Administration'"

As autocrats go, Zelensky cancelled elections in Ukraine, Putin did not cancel elections in Russia.



Not terribly close to that number, but an awful lot of Ukrainians have indeed died trying to join the liberal order, solely because Russia invaded to try & stop them.

It is truly amazing how a Russian invasion of a country with a legit democratically elected government is, in the minds of US policy opponents, the fault of the USA. I mean, it's like Russia didn't have a damned thing to do with it!
whiterock
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Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.

Either we epically failed at providing military aid or we're delusional about capabilities.

The only conclusion I can come to is Ukraine is going to continue to fight for years, we're going to spend well over a trillion dollars and it's going to end with Ukraine being forced to give up territory. All to temporarily weaken Russia.

If that's unacceptable then you'll need a hot war with the US and the death toll will grow tenfold.
Temporarily for a few decades is money well spent if it keeps Russia hundreds of miles away from Nato borders.

You have not yet explained how letting Russia have whatever it wants in Ukraine reduces the odds of "a hot war with the US and (a) death toll (that) will grow tendfold."
whiterock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.
Hungary is using NATO positions as part of its effort to stop EU cultural agendas.

And perhaps he's looking further down the road, calculating what he believes is most likely to happen (Russia outlasting Nato in Ukraine) and making appropriate recalibrations (a dynamic I have repeatedly pointed out to you....)

Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.
If that were possible I don't think Ukraine would have been using cluster bombs against hardened Russian defenses. NYT reports that Russia is producing seven times more artillery ammo than the US and Europe combined. So best of luck with that.
7x is a bit rich, but they are producing a very narrow band of ammo at a very high rate. Meanwhile, they're using duct tape on their fighter jets....
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.

Either we epically failed at providing military aid or we're delusional about capabilities.

The only conclusion I can come to is Ukraine is going to continue to fight for years, we're going to spend well over a trillion dollars and it's going to end with Ukraine being forced to give up territory. All to temporarily weaken Russia.

If that's unacceptable then you'll need a hot war with the US and the death toll will grow tenfold.
Temporarily for a few decades is money well spent if it keeps Russia hundreds of miles away from Nato borders…."


How can Russia say away from NATO's borders if it keeps expanding toward Russia?









Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war (which they told us Russia was losing)
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid (not just military we are paying to keep their whole economy afloat including retiree pensions)
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough (which they lied to us about and said that the new spring offensive would be decisive...that was 6-7 months ago and now completely forgotten)

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.



Some fair points, but as many or more on your side claimed Russia would take over all of Ukraine in 48 - 72 hours. Then a month. Then 3 months. Then 6 months. And so on. And for the last 6 months, it's been Ukraine will be beaten all the way back any day now.

Instead, what we have is basically a stalemate.

My side....what is my side?

And I never once said russia would take over ukraine in 48hrs

I have been surprised and how incompetent the russia military has been....but I guess stupid me for thinking the russian ruling class had spent money making their army better since the 2 Chechen Wars vs just laundry the money away to Monaco and Switzerland


Your side as in those opposed to us supporting Ukraine from the outset….


Yes I have opposed a stupid proxy war in the backyard of Russia since the beginning.

But I never said it would be over in 48hrs

The longer this bloody mess goes on the happier I am that I never fell for the BS that it was a good thing Obama was letting his Ivy League educated goons mess around in Ukraine or Belarus….it was always going to lead to disaster
Doc Holliday
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.

Either we epically failed at providing military aid or we're delusional about capabilities.

The only conclusion I can come to is Ukraine is going to continue to fight for years, we're going to spend well over a trillion dollars and it's going to end with Ukraine being forced to give up territory. All to temporarily weaken Russia.

If that's unacceptable then you'll need a hot war with the US and the death toll will grow tenfold.
Temporarily for a few decades is money well spent if it keeps Russia hundreds of miles away from Nato borders.

You have not yet explained how letting Russia have whatever it wants in Ukraine reduces the odds of "a hot war with the US and (a) death toll (that) will grow tendfold."
If Russia is super weak right now using duct tape on their fighter jets and NATO grows and gets stronger over the next few decades…there's no way they'd consider targeting a NATO country.

I don't understand how in your opinion they're getting manhandled by a small neighboring country that's in dire need of military assistance and they're somehow going to be a threat in the future while western military will be vastly more unstoppable in the future.

If US officials won't accept a peace treaty and Ukraine is exhausted then they move to a hot war and both sides start dropping small nukes and the death toll skyrockets. Thats how that would go down.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.

Either we epically failed at providing military aid or we're delusional about capabilities.

The only conclusion I can come to is Ukraine is going to continue to fight for years, we're going to spend well over a trillion dollars and it's going to end with Ukraine being forced to give up territory. All to temporarily weaken Russia.

If that's unacceptable then you'll need a hot war with the US and the death toll will grow tenfold.
Temporarily for a few decades is money well spent if it keeps Russia hundreds of miles away from Nato borders.

You have not yet explained how letting Russia have whatever it wants in Ukraine reduces the odds of "a hot war with the US and (a) death toll (that) will grow tendfold."
If Russia is super weak right now using duct tape on their fighter jets and NATO grows and gets stronger over the next few decades…there's no way they'd consider targeting a NATO country.

I don't understand how in your opinion they're getting manhandled by a small neighboring country that's in dire need….



It's hard because the pro-intervention side has to make two arguments at once.

1. Russia is a basket-case country with a bad conscript army of old rusting out Soviet equipment junk…filled with soldiers (many from jails) that don't want to serve and a corrupt political class that steals from the military spending. A country with 25% of its citizens not having indoor toilets which can not even impose its will on a weak neighbor.


2. Russia is a powerful threat to the 700,000,000 NATO alliance of 30 plus nations…many of whom are the most advanced & economically powerful nations on earth.


Obviously, argument 1 is closer to the truth…but you need argument number 2 so that people keep funding the proxy war and be afraid of the Russian military menace
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
KaiBear said:

Doc nailed the key ingredient.

There will be either a peace treaty or semi permanent ceasefire.

And Ukraine will have to cede some of its territory to Russia.


Billions spent and hundreds of thousands of lives lost due to the biggest US foreign policy blunder since WW2.

Thank you president Biden.
Russia was coming regardless of the idiots verbal gaffes.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.

Either we epically failed at providing military aid or we're delusional about capabilities.

The only conclusion I can come to is Ukraine is going to continue to fight for years, we're going to spend well over a trillion dollars and it's going to end with Ukraine being forced to give up territory. All to temporarily weaken Russia.

If that's unacceptable then you'll need a hot war with the US and the death toll will grow tenfold.
Temporarily for a few decades is money well spent if it keeps Russia hundreds of miles away from Nato borders.

You have not yet explained how letting Russia have whatever it wants in Ukraine reduces the odds of "a hot war with the US and (a) death toll (that) will grow tendfold."
If Russia is super weak right now using duct tape on their fighter jets and NATO grows and gets stronger over the next few decades…there's no way they'd consider targeting a NATO country.

I don't understand how in your opinion they're getting manhandled by a small neighboring country that's in dire need….



It's hard because the pro-intervention side has to make two arguments at once.

1. Russia is a basket-case country with a bad conscript army of old rusting out Soviet equipment junk…filled with soldiers (many from jails) that don't want to serve and a corrupt political class that steals from the military spending. A country with 25% of its citizens not having indoor toilets which can not even impose its will on a weak neighbor.


2. Russia is a powerful threat to the 700,000,000 NATO alliance of 30 plus nations…many of whom are the most advanced & economically powerful nations on earth.


Obviously, argument 1 is closer to the truth…but you need argument number 2 so that people keep funding the proxy war and be afraid of the Russian military menace
You always bring up population numbers. It's irrelevant in an age where technology and human efficiency outpace declining birth rates by a factor of at least 10. As a stark example, perhaps 3 humans are required to launch a weapon that will take out millions. More friendly examples would be farming and production ratios.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.

Either we epically failed at providing military aid or we're delusional about capabilities.

The only conclusion I can come to is Ukraine is going to continue to fight for years, we're going to spend well over a trillion dollars and it's going to end with Ukraine being forced to give up territory. All to temporarily weaken Russia.

If that's unacceptable then you'll need a hot war with the US and the death toll will grow tenfold.
Temporarily for a few decades is money well spent if it keeps Russia hundreds of miles away from Nato borders…."


How can Russia say away from NATO's borders if it keeps expanding toward Russia?










If Russia isn't a threat to NATO, then why does it matter how close they are?

Russia didn't want the EU economic alliance because of the impact to Putin's Oligarch grift. Let's deal with the actual motivations and not the ruse.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

Doc Holliday said:

whiterock said:

KaiBear said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

whiterock said:

Bookmarking this for the next time the "Russia couldn't/wouldn't invade, is no threat to anyone" tossed out
Nice day for a stroll out to the bailey?
I can show it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sentiments like the ones noted exist in every country, including ours. Their resonance will wax & wane. The resonate most when Russian armies are right across the border.

Are you watching what's going on in Sweden right now? Govt. is using "war footing" type statements, telling the country they must prepare for war. They realize that if Hungary does torpedo Sweden's membership application, Russia will likely invade. Nato might just respond by tossing out Hungary. (and Slovakia might even follow them.)

The prospect of Russian invasion of Nato is not the paramount risk. Rather, the #1 risk to Nato is division and collapse in the face of Russian posturing for war. I'm guessing that would probably make you happy.
Hungary is trying to take a stand for what NATO and the West used to represent. I'm surprised they haven't been kicked out already. I'll have mixed feelings about NATO's collapse, but it's probably beyond reform at this point.


Keep Ukraine ass-deep in ammo and this will all turn out fine.


For tens of thousands of dead Ukrainians……more ammo won't mean a thing .

Biden / Harris bleating about Ukrainian membership into NATO with 200,000 Russian troops positioned along the border is the biggest U.S. foreign policy miscalculation since WW2.
why on earth would we deny ammo to Ukrainians willing to die to defend their own country against an autocratic regime dead-set on destroying the liberal order (our business model).
Our business model is going to be NWO globalist WEF nonsense and will wreak tyranny across the planet at some point…just sayin
None of those acronyms are a part of the Ukrainian problem.

If "tyranny across the globe" is your concern, and it should be, I'd suggest that the best way to deal with such to to focus first and foremost on the autocratic regimes in the world which invade democratically elected governments. Helping the latter shatter the armies of the former is a logical A-to-B solution to the most urgent part of the problem.
I get your motivation, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Three things:

No end in sight after more than 22 months of war
Ukrainians highly dependent on mostly US military aid
Ukrainian counteroffensives have brought no big breakthrough

It's the second winter of full-scale war with a resource-rich, nuclear-armed superpower that has more than triple Ukraine's population. If this was going according to plan it would have already been winding down.

Either we epically failed at providing military aid or we're delusional about capabilities.

The only conclusion I can come to is Ukraine is going to continue to fight for years, we're going to spend well over a trillion dollars and it's going to end with Ukraine being forced to give up territory. All to temporarily weaken Russia.

If that's unacceptable then you'll need a hot war with the US and the death toll will grow tenfold.
You have not yet explained how letting Russia have whatever it wants in Ukraine reduces the odds of "a hot war with the US and (a) death toll (that) will grow tendfold."
Russia is trying to put a buffer between themselves and our weapons now that we've foolishly dismantled the arms control framework that wiser leaders took decades to build. If they succeed it will make all of us safer.
The_barBEARian
How long do you want to ignore this user?
It's nice to see from your little pictures how the globalists have been the ones consistently antagonizing Russia since the fall of the USSR.

The EU's achilles heel has always been that it is resource poor and requires outside energy and materials, so annexing Russia makes a lot of sense.

The Russian people just need to survive this storm and continue to play the long game.

The EU much like the US will eventually collapse in on itself bcs useful idiots like yourself have prioritized becoming an economic zone to make a select few obscenely rich at the expense of the force multiplier gained from having a shared cultural identity. Diversity isn't a strength. Controlled integration and cultural cohesion is.

For all this handwringing about Putin being greatest Tyrant alive today, the vast majority of his people seem to support his policies. If there was a mass uprising against him, he wouldn't be able to hold the territory seized in Ukraine... that is the power of cultural unity.
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