sombear said:
As I've illustrated, very much similar in numerous ways that count. I'm still waiting on that list of major differences in name and practice.
Realitybites said:sombear said:
As I've illustrated, very much similar in numerous ways that count. I'm still waiting on that list of major differences in name and practice.
Well, here's the most important one: under the Bolsheviks, the USSR martyred millions of Christians and destroyed around 43,000 churches. In modern Russia, Christianity is flourishing.
Redbrickbear said:
He literally thinks the Orthodox Church under the Soviets had a similar relationship as the Orthodox Church under the Russian Federation
If flourishing means the head of the Orthodox church goes on an approved government news site and claims volunteers for their war of expansion are reincarnating in order to lessen the fears of the populace, then sure, it's flourishing.Realitybites said:sombear said:
As I've illustrated, very much similar in numerous ways that count. I'm still waiting on that list of major differences in name and practice.
Well, here's the most important one: under the Bolsheviks, the USSR martyred millions of Christians and destroyed around 43,000 churches. In modern Russia, Christianity is flourishing. All the other neocon excuses to support the Jewish dictator of Ukraine pale in comparison.
Realitybites said:Redbrickbear said:
He literally thinks the Orthodox Church under the Soviets had a similar relationship as the Orthodox Church under the Russian Federation
People come up with all sorts of excuses to believe the things they want to believe.
trey3216 said:If flourishing means the head of the Orthodox church goes on an approved government news site and claims volunteers for their war of expansion are reincarnating in order to lessen the fears of the populace, then sure, it's flourishing.Realitybites said:sombear said:
As I've illustrated, very much similar in numerous ways that count. I'm still waiting on that list of major differences in name and practice.
Well, here's the most important one: under the Bolsheviks, the USSR martyred millions of Christians and destroyed around 43,000 churches. In modern Russia, Christianity is flourishing. All the other neocon excuses to support the Jewish dictator of Ukraine pale in comparison.
✅ Yes, New York's St. John the Divine Cathedral was lit up in rainbow colors in June 2024 to celebrate Pride Month. https://t.co/lnMKkLjKFC pic.twitter.com/qw0ZLgM1vM
— snopes.com (@snopes) June 10, 2024
trey3216 said:
the head of the Orthodox church goes on an approved government news site and claims volunteers for their war of expansion are reincarnating in order to lessen the fears of the populace, then sure, it's flourishing.
I have just been notified by US Congressman @RepJimBanks that I am listed on an enemy of the state list compiled by a Ukrainian organization
— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) June 11, 2024
This organization has received funding from the US government pic.twitter.com/DAnLyxTSlX
Realitybites said:trey3216 said:
the head of the Orthodox church goes on an approved government news site and claims volunteers for their war of expansion are reincarnating in order to lessen the fears of the populace, then sure, it's flourishing.
Or, you could read what he actually said:
"We know that today many are dying on the fields of internecine warfare. The Church prays that this war will end as soon as possible, that as few brothers as possible will kill each other in this fratricidal war. At the same time, the Church realizes that if someone, driven by a sense of duty, the need to fulfill an oath, remains faithful to his vocation and dies in the performance of military duty, then he undoubtedly commits an act tantamount to sacrifice. He sacrifices himself for others. Therefore, we believe that this sacrifice washes away all the sins that a person has committed."
Basically John 15:13.
Doc Holliday said:I have just been notified by US Congressman @RepJimBanks that I am listed on an enemy of the state list compiled by a Ukrainian organization
— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) June 11, 2024
This organization has received funding from the US government pic.twitter.com/DAnLyxTSlX
Seems like everyone here doesn't care that Zelensky suspending elections because of war...I suppose that means they won't care if Biden did the same thing if we are in direct war.Realitybites said:Doc Holliday said:I have just been notified by US Congressman @RepJimBanks that I am listed on an enemy of the state list compiled by a Ukrainian organization
— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) June 11, 2024
This organization has received funding from the US government pic.twitter.com/DAnLyxTSlX
Well, a little disappointed I didn't make it.
Tell Zelensky to...
Doc Holliday said:
Seems like everyone here doesn't care that Zelensky suspending elections because of war...I suppose that means they won't care if Biden did the same thing if we are in direct war.
Realitybites said:
Seig Heil!
Biden Regime Lifts Ban on Arming Ukraine's Neo-Nazi Azov Battallion
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/06/biden-regime-lifts-ban-arming-ukraines-neo-nazi/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=biden-regime-lifts-ban-arming-ukraines-neo-nazi
A governing majority of Ukrainians wanted to join the EU. That number has risen, thanks the the Russian invasion of their country. It is in our interest that Ukraine belong to EU rather than some notional Russian equivalent. it is in our interest that Russians not have any more military bases in Ukraine. it is in our interest that if Ukraine cannot be non-aligned, that it is aligned with us rather than Russia. All very simple, obvious facts......Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Russia invades Ukraine to subsume it in entirety? It's the natural order of things.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:you should try not putting Russia first......Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:The only thing you could point out liberal about me was I hurt your Russian feelingsRedbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
How many pro-hamas/anti-us rallies do you attend a week?
You're the liberal internationalist on here…so you tell me.
I'm not interested in supporting either side of a Semitic blood fueled on the other side of the planet.
I only have American feelings there little guy
You should try putting America first for a change before some other foreign country like Ukraine or Israel
Name me one way I have ever "put Russia first"
Advocating for less wasteful spending and a more rational foreign policy is in the interest of America and the American people first and foremost
We send help to Ukraine? it's empire!
The Maidan protests weren't caused by Russian interference in Ukrainian politics (to reject an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian Parliament that he'd promised for years to sign). Oh no. It was caused by interference from Victoria Nuland.
Yanukovich signs an agreement with the political opposition to end the Maiden, then flees the country. the Ukrainian Parliament then formally removes him from office and forms an interim government followed by elections. You describe the whole thing as a CIA-led coup d'etat.
I could go on a bit. Russia can do no wrong in Ukraine, and we have a moral obligation to let them.
1. You assume the war is to "subsume" the entirely of Ukraine into Russia. For all we know its just a regime change operation to install a friendly government in Kyiv.
Not much different than the war DC waged in Iraq.
You don't see how to most countries in the world the actions of DC and Moscow seem very similar (invade who they want and over throw governments they don like)
The stated goal (see annexations) is to subsume parts of Ukraine. The obvious implicit goal, both from statements and actions, was to move the remnant of Ukraine toward Belarus status. And it is fairly obvious that Belarus is a client leaning toward return to Russian polity.
2. The Maidan protests of course had a native element to them (so do our own BLM protests) but the fact that you and others refuse to deal with the role of Victoria Nuland and the CIA/State Department in those protests just makes it seem like you don't want any criticism spoken of about ruling class. DC has spent billions on Ukraine to influence their internal political system (for good or bad)
Neither Nuland nor CIA organized unarmed crowds to fight police and paramilitary units for days. No evidence. There was no "leader" of that. Names please. What you completely ignore is that those leaderless crowds did not take power after Yanukovich fled. Nope. Yanukovich was removed and replaced by entirely constitutional processes.....by existing elected leadership in an interim unity coalition of elected parties. At literally every step of analysis, facts blow your presumption clean out of the water. There was no coup. There was no change in constitutional order. Just spontaneous riots when Yanukovich at the last minute (due to Russian meddling) refused to sign an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian parliament, a bill which had overwhelming public support, for years, a bill he'd made repeated promises to sign, in campaigns and in office.
It was RUSSIAN MEDDLING which caused the Maidan, not American meddling!
But no one ever said Russia was not active in Ukraine...hat is the whole point....Russia has always been there on the political level...its DC getting itself involved in the country that is new and outside our traditional area.
You keep issuing that platitude with studious indifference to the real world. We were involved at the breakup of the USSR, were we not? We were involved in the disposition of Ukranian nukes, were we not? We are a part of Nato, are we not? Ukraine is a strategic question for Nato, is it not? And on and on and on. Ukraine does not belong to Russia. It is a sovereign country recognized by the entire world.
3. I never said it was a completely thought up and executed CIA coup...Ukraine (like our own country was political-cultural divided) yet from the perspective of the ethic russians in the East of the country and the powers that be in Moscow that protest/coup in Kyiv was a massive seismic event in the internal politics of Ukraine.
Stop it with the motte & bailey. Your entire argument is premised on the idea that we orchestrated the Maidan. You say it just like you did above "the role of Nuland/CIA." Well, were their actions dispositive or not?
How many voters in the East of the country looked at what happened in Kyiv and said "well even when we vote our guy in they just use street thugs to throw him out"
about half. And Russia exploited that with little green men to destabilize the province, then invade it. Which of course, is our fault, according to you.
Example...lets say you were an average conservative American in flyover country and you watched as the BLM protesters drove Trump from power in summer of 2020 how would you feel? What if you then found out that the Chinese communists had been giving billions to Leftists NGOs and Leftists activist groups on the ground. What if Chinese politicians had flown into DC to give encouragement to the protestors? What if Chinese bureaucrats were seen on the streets handing out sweats?
The proper analog would be this: the MAGA movement drove Trump from power for NOT signing a bill that would fully fund the wall and build the infrastructure to conduct mass deportations like he promised, because the Mexico (controlled by drug cartels) paid him to balk at it. And then, after he left and RDS was sworn in and started actually building wall and deporting people, Mexico invaded to take New Mexico and Arizona. Yeah, the public would be pretty upset about that. People from all across the political spectrum would line up to go fight the Mexican Army and take back Arizona and New Mexico.
Would you come away from that bloody event thinking everything was on the up and up?
You are letting false premises lead you to sophomoric conclusions.
Quote:
We are in fact obligated to do what is good for us.
Quote:
And a Ukraine aligned with us is good for us.
Quote:
That getting to that point involves destroying tens of thousands of tanks and arty tubes and killing a generation of Russians?.....well that is tens of thousands of tanks and tubes and a generation of Russian soldiers that we no longer have to plan to destroy in central Europe. That we will have to help rebuild Ukrainian cities rather than Baltic cities, Polish cities, Romanian cities, etc......that is an entirely noble endeavor.
Realitybites said:Quote:
We are in fact obligated to do what is good for us.
Indeed...and destroying the status of our currency as the global reserve, unleashing inflation, and destabilizing our own economy and society as the military-industrial complex and government-americans tilt at windmills for fun and profit does not fall into the category of "what is good for us."Quote:
And a Ukraine aligned with us is good for us.
Ukraine's alignment is irrelevant. That "country" is literally nothing but a crossroads that grows grain. The only relevance Ukraine has to the world: (1) Continue to grow and export grain and do not destabilize the world food supply, (2) Do not act in such a way that you obstruct the flow of energy to Europe, thereby destabilizing the economies of the EU, (3) Do not act in such a way that you allow foreign military forces to approach the Russian border, risking a military response by Russia. That's it.
Aside from those three points, Ukraine is entirely irrelevant to the world. No one in the rest of the world cares if Ukraine is independent, a vassal state, about Bandera, none of it. As the saying goes "You had one job!" *Any* Ukraininan government has three, in the big picture.
In fact Ukraine, like Iraq, could be dissolved as a political entity and be subsumed into Hungary, Poland, Russia, and the world would be no worse for wear.Quote:
That getting to that point involves destroying tens of thousands of tanks and arty tubes and killing a generation of Russians?.....well that is tens of thousands of tanks and tubes and a generation of Russian soldiers that we no longer have to plan to destroy in central Europe. That we will have to help rebuild Ukrainian cities rather than Baltic cities, Polish cities, Romanian cities, etc......that is an entirely noble endeavor.
Your entire view of foreign policy is a half century out of date. With the collapse of communism, nothing makes war with Russia inevitable. In fact, even communism didn't make war with Russia inevitable. Kennedy successfully navigated the Cuban Missile Crisis.
your foreign policy views are a few sacks of concrete short of inchoateRealitybites said:Quote:
We are in fact obligated to do what is good for us.
Indeed...and destroying the status of our currency as the global reserve, unleashing inflation, and destabilizing our own economy and society as the military-industrial complex and government-americans tilt at windmills for fun and profit does not fall into the category of "what is good for us."
That is an impressive number of false statement sin a single sentence.
-The Russian Army is no windmill.
-Neither the Ruble nor the Yuan is going to replace the dollar.
-Our spending on Ukraine is a couple of percentage points of the overall deficitQuote:
And a Ukraine aligned with us is good for us.
Ukraine's alignment is irrelevant. That "country" is literally nothing but a crossroads that grows grain. The only relevance Ukraine has to the world: (1) Continue to grow and export grain and do not destabilize the world food supply, (2) Do not act in such a way that you obstruct the flow of energy to Europe, thereby destabilizing the economies of the EU, (3) Do not act in such a way that you allow foreign military forces to approach the Russian border, risking a military response by Russia. That's it.
Aside from those three points, Ukraine is entirely irrelevant to the world. No one in the rest of the world cares if Ukraine is independent, a vassal state, about Bandera, none of it. As the saying goes "You had one job!" *Any* Ukraininan government has three, in the big picture.
to that list you should add production of Urkainian oil/gas which is of critical importance to Europe, as it would greatly reduce the need for Russian oil/gas. And critical minerals for use in steel production, fertilizer production, etc......(did you know Ukraine is the world's largest producer of potash?....are you paying more for food yet? Nuland/CIA/Nato did not cause that. Ukraine did not cause that. RUSSIA DID when it invaded Ukraine. But most important of all is the issue you left off: 4) do not allow Russian armies to encamp on Nato borders. That's a pretty big frickin' deal.Quote:
That getting to that point involves destroying tens of thousands of tanks and arty tubes and killing a generation of Russians?.....well that is tens of thousands of tanks and tubes and a generation of Russian soldiers that we no longer have to plan to destroy in central Europe. That we will have to help rebuild Ukrainian cities rather than Baltic cities, Polish cities, Romanian cities, etc......that is an entirely noble endeavor.
Your entire view of foreign policy is a half century out of date. With the collapse of communism, nothing makes war with Russia inevitable. In fact, even communism didn't make war with Russia inevitable. Kennedy successfully navigated the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Kennedy also CAUSED the Cuban missile crisis (for which my then US Army Reserve father was mobilized).
He's rather more like this:Bear8084 said:Realitybites said:Quote:
We are in fact obligated to do what is good for us.
Indeed...and destroying the status of our currency as the global reserve, unleashing inflation, and destabilizing our own economy and society as the military-industrial complex and government-americans tilt at windmills for fun and profit does not fall into the category of "what is good for us."Quote:
And a Ukraine aligned with us is good for us.
Ukraine's alignment is irrelevant. That "country" is literally nothing but a crossroads that grows grain. The only relevance Ukraine has to the world: (1) Continue to grow and export grain and do not destabilize the world food supply, (2) Do not act in such a way that you obstruct the flow of energy to Europe, thereby destabilizing the economies of the EU, (3) Do not act in such a way that you allow foreign military forces to approach the Russian border, risking a military response by Russia. That's it.
Aside from those three points, Ukraine is entirely irrelevant to the world. No one in the rest of the world cares if Ukraine is independent, a vassal state, about Bandera, none of it. As the saying goes "You had one job!" *Any* Ukraininan government has three, in the big picture.
In fact Ukraine, like Iraq, could be dissolved as a political entity and be subsumed into Hungary, Poland, Russia, and the world would be no worse for wear.Quote:
That getting to that point involves destroying tens of thousands of tanks and arty tubes and killing a generation of Russians?.....well that is tens of thousands of tanks and tubes and a generation of Russian soldiers that we no longer have to plan to destroy in central Europe. That we will have to help rebuild Ukrainian cities rather than Baltic cities, Polish cities, Romanian cities, etc......that is an entirely noble endeavor.
Your entire view of foreign policy is a half century out of date. With the collapse of communism, nothing makes war with Russia inevitable. In fact, even communism didn't make war with Russia inevitable. Kennedy successfully navigated the Cuban Missile Crisis.
More Russian BS. Vatnik gonna vatnik.
Redbrickbear said:Realitybites said:sombear said:
As I've illustrated, very much similar in numerous ways that count. I'm still waiting on that list of major differences in name and practice.
Well, here's the most important one: under the Bolsheviks, the USSR martyred millions of Christians and destroyed around 43,000 churches. In modern Russia, Christianity is flourishing.
He literally thinks the Orthodox Church under the Soviets had a similar relationship as the Orthodox Church under the Russian Federation
Or you could watch the video I posted a few weeks back to which I was referring.Realitybites said:trey3216 said:
the head of the Orthodox church goes on an approved government news site and claims volunteers for their war of expansion are reincarnating in order to lessen the fears of the populace, then sure, it's flourishing.
Or, you could read what he actually said:
"We know that today many are dying on the fields of internecine warfare. The Church prays that this war will end as soon as possible, that as few brothers as possible will kill each other in this fratricidal war. At the same time, the Church realizes that if someone, driven by a sense of duty, the need to fulfill an oath, remains faithful to his vocation and dies in the performance of military duty, then he undoubtedly commits an act tantamount to sacrifice. He sacrifices himself for others. Therefore, we believe that this sacrifice washes away all the sins that a person has committed."
Basically John 15:13.
sombear said:Redbrickbear said:Realitybites said:sombear said:
As I've illustrated, very much similar in numerous ways that count. I'm still waiting on that list of major differences in name and practice.
Well, here's the most important one: under the Bolsheviks, the USSR martyred millions of Christians and destroyed around 43,000 churches. In modern Russia, Christianity is flourishing.
He literally thinks the Orthodox Church under the Soviets had a similar relationship as the Orthodox Church under the Russian Federation
We have our back and forth, which I enjoy, but you're usually honest. You know this is not what I said. We had multiple exchanges on this very topic. What I said, which really is not controversial except evidently in this thread, is that (1) for most of the Soviet empire, the treatment of ROC and its members was nowhere near as bad in practice as it was on paper, (2) the relationship between the state and church improved dramatically starting in the 70s, and (3) there were about as many ROC members then as now.
whiterock said:A governing majority of Ukrainians wanted to join the EU. That number has risen, thanks the the Russian invasion of their country. It is in our interest that Ukraine belong to EU rather than some notional Russian equivalent. it is in our interest that Russians not have any more military bases in Ukraine. it is in our interest that if Ukraine cannot be non-aligned, that it is aligned with us rather than Russia. All very simple, obvious facts......Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Russia invades Ukraine to subsume it in entirety? It's the natural order of things.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:you should try not putting Russia first......Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:The only thing you could point out liberal about me was I hurt your Russian feelingsRedbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
How many pro-hamas/anti-us rallies do you attend a week?
You're the liberal internationalist on here…so you tell me.
I'm not interested in supporting either side of a Semitic blood fueled on the other side of the planet.
I only have American feelings there little guy
You should try putting America first for a change before some other foreign country like Ukraine or Israel
Name me one way I have ever "put Russia first"
Advocating for less wasteful spending and a more rational foreign policy is in the interest of America and the American people first and foremost
We send help to Ukraine? it's empire!
The Maidan protests weren't caused by Russian interference in Ukrainian politics (to reject an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian Parliament that he'd promised for years to sign). Oh no. It was caused by interference from Victoria Nuland.
Yanukovich signs an agreement with the political opposition to end the Maiden, then flees the country. the Ukrainian Parliament then formally removes him from office and forms an interim government followed by elections. You describe the whole thing as a CIA-led coup d'etat.
I could go on a bit. Russia can do no wrong in Ukraine, and we have a moral obligation to let them.
1. You assume the war is to "subsume" the entirely of Ukraine into Russia. For all we know its just a regime change operation to install a friendly government in Kyiv.
Not much different than the war DC waged in Iraq.
You don't see how to most countries in the world the actions of DC and Moscow seem very similar (invade who they want and over throw governments they don like)
The stated goal (see annexations) is to subsume parts of Ukraine. The obvious implicit goal, both from statements and actions, was to move the remnant of Ukraine toward Belarus status. And it is fairly obvious that Belarus is a client leaning toward return to Russian polity.
2. The Maidan protests of course had a native element to them (so do our own BLM protests) but the fact that you and others refuse to deal with the role of Victoria Nuland and the CIA/State Department in those protests just makes it seem like you don't want any criticism spoken of about ruling class. DC has spent billions on Ukraine to influence their internal political system (for good or bad)
Neither Nuland nor CIA organized unarmed crowds to fight police and paramilitary units for days. No evidence. There was no "leader" of that. Names please. What you completely ignore is that those leaderless crowds did not take power after Yanukovich fled. Nope. Yanukovich was removed and replaced by entirely constitutional processes.....by existing elected leadership in an interim unity coalition of elected parties. At literally every step of analysis, facts blow your presumption clean out of the water. There was no coup. There was no change in constitutional order. Just spontaneous riots when Yanukovich at the last minute (due to Russian meddling) refused to sign an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian parliament, a bill which had overwhelming public support, for years, a bill he'd made repeated promises to sign, in campaigns and in office.
It was RUSSIAN MEDDLING which caused the Maidan, not American meddling!
But no one ever said Russia was not active in Ukraine...hat is the whole point....Russia has always been there on the political level...its DC getting itself involved in the country that is new and outside our traditional area.
You keep issuing that platitude with studious indifference to the real world. We were involved at the breakup of the USSR, were we not? We were involved in the disposition of Ukranian nukes, were we not? We are a part of Nato, are we not? Ukraine is a strategic question for Nato, is it not? And on and on and on. Ukraine does not belong to Russia. It is a sovereign country recognized by the entire world.
3. I never said it was a completely thought up and executed CIA coup...Ukraine (like our own country was political-cultural divided) yet from the perspective of the ethic russians in the East of the country and the powers that be in Moscow that protest/coup in Kyiv was a massive seismic event in the internal politics of Ukraine.
Stop it with the motte & bailey. Your entire argument is premised on the idea that we orchestrated the Maidan. You say it just like you did above "the role of Nuland/CIA." Well, were their actions dispositive or not?
How many voters in the East of the country looked at what happened in Kyiv and said "well even when we vote our guy in they just use street thugs to throw him out"
about half. And Russia exploited that with little green men to destabilize the province, then invade it. Which of course, is our fault, according to you.
Example...lets say you were an average conservative American in flyover country and you watched as the BLM protesters drove Trump from power in summer of 2020 how would you feel? What if you then found out that the Chinese communists had been giving billions to Leftists NGOs and Leftists activist groups on the ground. What if Chinese politicians had flown into DC to give encouragement to the protestors? What if Chinese bureaucrats were seen on the streets handing out sweats?
The proper analog would be this: the MAGA movement drove Trump from power for NOT signing a bill that would fully fund the wall and build the infrastructure to conduct mass deportations like he promised, because the Mexico (controlled by drug cartels) paid him to balk at it. And then, after he left and RDS was sworn in and started actually building wall and deporting people, Mexico invaded to take New Mexico and Arizona. Yeah, the public would be pretty upset about that. People from all across the political spectrum would line up to go fight the Mexican Army and take back Arizona and New Mexico.
Would you come away from that bloody event thinking everything was on the up and up?
You are letting false premises lead you to sophomoric conclusions.
Ukraine has fought Russia to remain independent many times. We are not obligated to stand by and let them lose this one just because they've lost others. We are in fact obligated to do what is good for us. And a Ukraine aligned with us is good for us. That getting to that point involves destroying tens of thousands of tanks and arty tubes and killing a generation of Russians?.....well that is tens of thousands of tanks and tubes and a generation of Russian soldiers that we no longer have to plan to destroy in central Europe. That we will have to help rebuild Ukrainian cities rather than Baltic cities, Polish cities, Romanian cities, etc......that is an entirely noble endeavor. It's why we engage in alliance. To deter, and if necessary defeat threats.
ATL Bear said:
Kirill was a state asset under the USSR and the church an instrument of the state. He remains one for the state today and the church an instrument as well.
The state owned the major industrial and energy assets under the USSR, doling out special positions to political powerbrokers and political allies. The state still owns the major industrial and energy assets, doling out wealth to political powerbrokers and political allies.
Party heads approved who could and couldn't run for positions in the government under the USSR. Party heads approve who can and can't run for positions in the government today.
The state owned the major media outlets under the USSR. The state owns the major media outlets in Russia today.
The list goes on, but as they say, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
This 'good guys vs. bad guys' bs has got to stop. Its all bad guys.whiterock said:A governing majority of Ukrainians wanted to join the EU. That number has risen, thanks the the Russian invasion of their country. It is in our interest that Ukraine belong to EU rather than some notional Russian equivalent. it is in our interest that Russians not have any more military bases in Ukraine. it is in our interest that if Ukraine cannot be non-aligned, that it is aligned with us rather than Russia. All very simple, obvious facts......Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Russia invades Ukraine to subsume it in entirety? It's the natural order of things.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:you should try not putting Russia first......Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:The only thing you could point out liberal about me was I hurt your Russian feelingsRedbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
How many pro-hamas/anti-us rallies do you attend a week?
You're the liberal internationalist on here…so you tell me.
I'm not interested in supporting either side of a Semitic blood fueled on the other side of the planet.
I only have American feelings there little guy
You should try putting America first for a change before some other foreign country like Ukraine or Israel
Name me one way I have ever "put Russia first"
Advocating for less wasteful spending and a more rational foreign policy is in the interest of America and the American people first and foremost
We send help to Ukraine? it's empire!
The Maidan protests weren't caused by Russian interference in Ukrainian politics (to reject an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian Parliament that he'd promised for years to sign). Oh no. It was caused by interference from Victoria Nuland.
Yanukovich signs an agreement with the political opposition to end the Maiden, then flees the country. the Ukrainian Parliament then formally removes him from office and forms an interim government followed by elections. You describe the whole thing as a CIA-led coup d'etat.
I could go on a bit. Russia can do no wrong in Ukraine, and we have a moral obligation to let them.
1. You assume the war is to "subsume" the entirely of Ukraine into Russia. For all we know its just a regime change operation to install a friendly government in Kyiv.
Not much different than the war DC waged in Iraq.
You don't see how to most countries in the world the actions of DC and Moscow seem very similar (invade who they want and over throw governments they don like)
The stated goal (see annexations) is to subsume parts of Ukraine. The obvious implicit goal, both from statements and actions, was to move the remnant of Ukraine toward Belarus status. And it is fairly obvious that Belarus is a client leaning toward return to Russian polity.
2. The Maidan protests of course had a native element to them (so do our own BLM protests) but the fact that you and others refuse to deal with the role of Victoria Nuland and the CIA/State Department in those protests just makes it seem like you don't want any criticism spoken of about ruling class. DC has spent billions on Ukraine to influence their internal political system (for good or bad)
Neither Nuland nor CIA organized unarmed crowds to fight police and paramilitary units for days. No evidence. There was no "leader" of that. Names please. What you completely ignore is that those leaderless crowds did not take power after Yanukovich fled. Nope. Yanukovich was removed and replaced by entirely constitutional processes.....by existing elected leadership in an interim unity coalition of elected parties. At literally every step of analysis, facts blow your presumption clean out of the water. There was no coup. There was no change in constitutional order. Just spontaneous riots when Yanukovich at the last minute (due to Russian meddling) refused to sign an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian parliament, a bill which had overwhelming public support, for years, a bill he'd made repeated promises to sign, in campaigns and in office.
It was RUSSIAN MEDDLING which caused the Maidan, not American meddling!
But no one ever said Russia was not active in Ukraine...hat is the whole point....Russia has always been there on the political level...its DC getting itself involved in the country that is new and outside our traditional area.
You keep issuing that platitude with studious indifference to the real world. We were involved at the breakup of the USSR, were we not? We were involved in the disposition of Ukranian nukes, were we not? We are a part of Nato, are we not? Ukraine is a strategic question for Nato, is it not? And on and on and on. Ukraine does not belong to Russia. It is a sovereign country recognized by the entire world.
3. I never said it was a completely thought up and executed CIA coup...Ukraine (like our own country was political-cultural divided) yet from the perspective of the ethic russians in the East of the country and the powers that be in Moscow that protest/coup in Kyiv was a massive seismic event in the internal politics of Ukraine.
Stop it with the motte & bailey. Your entire argument is premised on the idea that we orchestrated the Maidan. You say it just like you did above "the role of Nuland/CIA." Well, were their actions dispositive or not?
How many voters in the East of the country looked at what happened in Kyiv and said "well even when we vote our guy in they just use street thugs to throw him out"
about half. And Russia exploited that with little green men to destabilize the province, then invade it. Which of course, is our fault, according to you.
Example...lets say you were an average conservative American in flyover country and you watched as the BLM protesters drove Trump from power in summer of 2020 how would you feel? What if you then found out that the Chinese communists had been giving billions to Leftists NGOs and Leftists activist groups on the ground. What if Chinese politicians had flown into DC to give encouragement to the protestors? What if Chinese bureaucrats were seen on the streets handing out sweats?
The proper analog would be this: the MAGA movement drove Trump from power for NOT signing a bill that would fully fund the wall and build the infrastructure to conduct mass deportations like he promised, because the Mexico (controlled by drug cartels) paid him to balk at it. And then, after he left and RDS was sworn in and started actually building wall and deporting people, Mexico invaded to take New Mexico and Arizona. Yeah, the public would be pretty upset about that. People from all across the political spectrum would line up to go fight the Mexican Army and take back Arizona and New Mexico.
Would you come away from that bloody event thinking everything was on the up and up?
You are letting false premises lead you to sophomoric conclusions.
Ukraine has fought Russia to remain independent many times. We are not obligated to stand by and let them lose this one just because they've lost others. We are in fact obligated to do what is good for us. And a Ukraine aligned with us is good for us. That getting to that point involves destroying tens of thousands of tanks and arty tubes and killing a generation of Russians?.....well that is tens of thousands of tanks and tubes and a generation of Russian soldiers that we no longer have to plan to destroy in central Europe. That we will have to help rebuild Ukrainian cities rather than Baltic cities, Polish cities, Romanian cities, etc......that is an entirely noble endeavor. It's why we engage in alliance. To deter, and if necessary defeat threats.
Doc Holliday said:This 'good guys vs. bad guys' bs has got to stop. Its all bad guys.whiterock said:A governing majority of Ukrainians wanted to join the EU. That number has risen, thanks the the Russian invasion of their country. It is in our interest that Ukraine belong to EU rather than some notional Russian equivalent. it is in our interest that Russians not have any more military bases in Ukraine. it is in our interest that if Ukraine cannot be non-aligned, that it is aligned with us rather than Russia. All very simple, obvious facts......Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Russia invades Ukraine to subsume it in entirety? It's the natural order of things.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:you should try not putting Russia first......Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:The only thing you could point out liberal about me was I hurt your Russian feelingsRedbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
How many pro-hamas/anti-us rallies do you attend a week?
You're the liberal internationalist on here…so you tell me.
I'm not interested in supporting either side of a Semitic blood fueled on the other side of the planet.
I only have American feelings there little guy
You should try putting America first for a change before some other foreign country like Ukraine or Israel
Name me one way I have ever "put Russia first"
Advocating for less wasteful spending and a more rational foreign policy is in the interest of America and the American people first and foremost
We send help to Ukraine? it's empire!
The Maidan protests weren't caused by Russian interference in Ukrainian politics (to reject an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian Parliament that he'd promised for years to sign). Oh no. It was caused by interference from Victoria Nuland.
Yanukovich signs an agreement with the political opposition to end the Maiden, then flees the country. the Ukrainian Parliament then formally removes him from office and forms an interim government followed by elections. You describe the whole thing as a CIA-led coup d'etat.
I could go on a bit. Russia can do no wrong in Ukraine, and we have a moral obligation to let them.
1. You assume the war is to "subsume" the entirely of Ukraine into Russia. For all we know its just a regime change operation to install a friendly government in Kyiv.
Not much different than the war DC waged in Iraq.
You don't see how to most countries in the world the actions of DC and Moscow seem very similar (invade who they want and over throw governments they don like)
The stated goal (see annexations) is to subsume parts of Ukraine. The obvious implicit goal, both from statements and actions, was to move the remnant of Ukraine toward Belarus status. And it is fairly obvious that Belarus is a client leaning toward return to Russian polity.
2. The Maidan protests of course had a native element to them (so do our own BLM protests) but the fact that you and others refuse to deal with the role of Victoria Nuland and the CIA/State Department in those protests just makes it seem like you don't want any criticism spoken of about ruling class. DC has spent billions on Ukraine to influence their internal political system (for good or bad)
Neither Nuland nor CIA organized unarmed crowds to fight police and paramilitary units for days. No evidence. There was no "leader" of that. Names please. What you completely ignore is that those leaderless crowds did not take power after Yanukovich fled. Nope. Yanukovich was removed and replaced by entirely constitutional processes.....by existing elected leadership in an interim unity coalition of elected parties. At literally every step of analysis, facts blow your presumption clean out of the water. There was no coup. There was no change in constitutional order. Just spontaneous riots when Yanukovich at the last minute (due to Russian meddling) refused to sign an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian parliament, a bill which had overwhelming public support, for years, a bill he'd made repeated promises to sign, in campaigns and in office.
It was RUSSIAN MEDDLING which caused the Maidan, not American meddling!
But no one ever said Russia was not active in Ukraine...hat is the whole point....Russia has always been there on the political level...its DC getting itself involved in the country that is new and outside our traditional area.
You keep issuing that platitude with studious indifference to the real world. We were involved at the breakup of the USSR, were we not? We were involved in the disposition of Ukranian nukes, were we not? We are a part of Nato, are we not? Ukraine is a strategic question for Nato, is it not? And on and on and on. Ukraine does not belong to Russia. It is a sovereign country recognized by the entire world.
3. I never said it was a completely thought up and executed CIA coup...Ukraine (like our own country was political-cultural divided) yet from the perspective of the ethic russians in the East of the country and the powers that be in Moscow that protest/coup in Kyiv was a massive seismic event in the internal politics of Ukraine.
Stop it with the motte & bailey. Your entire argument is premised on the idea that we orchestrated the Maidan. You say it just like you did above "the role of Nuland/CIA." Well, were their actions dispositive or not?
How many voters in the East of the country looked at what happened in Kyiv and said "well even when we vote our guy in they just use street thugs to throw him out"
about half. And Russia exploited that with little green men to destabilize the province, then invade it. Which of course, is our fault, according to you.
Example...lets say you were an average conservative American in flyover country and you watched as the BLM protesters drove Trump from power in summer of 2020 how would you feel? What if you then found out that the Chinese communists had been giving billions to Leftists NGOs and Leftists activist groups on the ground. What if Chinese politicians had flown into DC to give encouragement to the protestors? What if Chinese bureaucrats were seen on the streets handing out sweats?
The proper analog would be this: the MAGA movement drove Trump from power for NOT signing a bill that would fully fund the wall and build the infrastructure to conduct mass deportations like he promised, because the Mexico (controlled by drug cartels) paid him to balk at it. And then, after he left and RDS was sworn in and started actually building wall and deporting people, Mexico invaded to take New Mexico and Arizona. Yeah, the public would be pretty upset about that. People from all across the political spectrum would line up to go fight the Mexican Army and take back Arizona and New Mexico.
Would you come away from that bloody event thinking everything was on the up and up?
You are letting false premises lead you to sophomoric conclusions.
Ukraine has fought Russia to remain independent many times. We are not obligated to stand by and let them lose this one just because they've lost others. We are in fact obligated to do what is good for us. And a Ukraine aligned with us is good for us. That getting to that point involves destroying tens of thousands of tanks and arty tubes and killing a generation of Russians?.....well that is tens of thousands of tanks and tubes and a generation of Russian soldiers that we no longer have to plan to destroy in central Europe. That we will have to help rebuild Ukrainian cities rather than Baltic cities, Polish cities, Romanian cities, etc......that is an entirely noble endeavor. It's why we engage in alliance. To deter, and if necessary defeat threats.
We're not fighting to keep Ukraine independent. We're fighting to own them.
You have to fight for peace so the bankers can make $$ on the bombs and then loans to the country for the rebuild, and when they cant pay the debt, the bankers take the REAL ASSETS. Same playbook has been used for centuries. Warriors and fighters are being eliminated, resistance to the western machine is being culled on all fronts.
If Russia owns them, then oligarchs run the show, and there's a VERY TINY chance they are more powerful and become a marginally larger threat to Europe.
If the west owns them, we flood their country with anti Judeo-Christian immigrants and spread our woke dogma just like we've done all over Europe for quite some time now.
Lets just skip to the end and set aside $5 trillion, get directly involved in this war, avoid peace and spread the woke gospel as the American people continue to be wage slaves battling money printing to make this all possible.
trey3216 said:Doc Holliday said:This 'good guys vs. bad guys' bs has got to stop. Its all bad guys.whiterock said:A governing majority of Ukrainians wanted to join the EU. That number has risen, thanks the the Russian invasion of their country. It is in our interest that Ukraine belong to EU rather than some notional Russian equivalent. it is in our interest that Russians not have any more military bases in Ukraine. it is in our interest that if Ukraine cannot be non-aligned, that it is aligned with us rather than Russia. All very simple, obvious facts......Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Russia invades Ukraine to subsume it in entirety? It's the natural order of things.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:you should try not putting Russia first......Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:The only thing you could point out liberal about me was I hurt your Russian feelingsRedbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:
How many pro-hamas/anti-us rallies do you attend a week?
You're the liberal internationalist on here…so you tell me.
I'm not interested in supporting either side of a Semitic blood fueled on the other side of the planet.
I only have American feelings there little guy
You should try putting America first for a change before some other foreign country like Ukraine or Israel
Name me one way I have ever "put Russia first"
Advocating for less wasteful spending and a more rational foreign policy is in the interest of America and the American people first and foremost
We send help to Ukraine? it's empire!
The Maidan protests weren't caused by Russian interference in Ukrainian politics (to reject an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian Parliament that he'd promised for years to sign). Oh no. It was caused by interference from Victoria Nuland.
Yanukovich signs an agreement with the political opposition to end the Maiden, then flees the country. the Ukrainian Parliament then formally removes him from office and forms an interim government followed by elections. You describe the whole thing as a CIA-led coup d'etat.
I could go on a bit. Russia can do no wrong in Ukraine, and we have a moral obligation to let them.
1. You assume the war is to "subsume" the entirely of Ukraine into Russia. For all we know its just a regime change operation to install a friendly government in Kyiv.
Not much different than the war DC waged in Iraq.
You don't see how to most countries in the world the actions of DC and Moscow seem very similar (invade who they want and over throw governments they don like)
The stated goal (see annexations) is to subsume parts of Ukraine. The obvious implicit goal, both from statements and actions, was to move the remnant of Ukraine toward Belarus status. And it is fairly obvious that Belarus is a client leaning toward return to Russian polity.
2. The Maidan protests of course had a native element to them (so do our own BLM protests) but the fact that you and others refuse to deal with the role of Victoria Nuland and the CIA/State Department in those protests just makes it seem like you don't want any criticism spoken of about ruling class. DC has spent billions on Ukraine to influence their internal political system (for good or bad)
Neither Nuland nor CIA organized unarmed crowds to fight police and paramilitary units for days. No evidence. There was no "leader" of that. Names please. What you completely ignore is that those leaderless crowds did not take power after Yanukovich fled. Nope. Yanukovich was removed and replaced by entirely constitutional processes.....by existing elected leadership in an interim unity coalition of elected parties. At literally every step of analysis, facts blow your presumption clean out of the water. There was no coup. There was no change in constitutional order. Just spontaneous riots when Yanukovich at the last minute (due to Russian meddling) refused to sign an EU bill passed by the Ukrainian parliament, a bill which had overwhelming public support, for years, a bill he'd made repeated promises to sign, in campaigns and in office.
It was RUSSIAN MEDDLING which caused the Maidan, not American meddling!
But no one ever said Russia was not active in Ukraine...hat is the whole point....Russia has always been there on the political level...its DC getting itself involved in the country that is new and outside our traditional area.
You keep issuing that platitude with studious indifference to the real world. We were involved at the breakup of the USSR, were we not? We were involved in the disposition of Ukranian nukes, were we not? We are a part of Nato, are we not? Ukraine is a strategic question for Nato, is it not? And on and on and on. Ukraine does not belong to Russia. It is a sovereign country recognized by the entire world.
3. I never said it was a completely thought up and executed CIA coup...Ukraine (like our own country was political-cultural divided) yet from the perspective of the ethic russians in the East of the country and the powers that be in Moscow that protest/coup in Kyiv was a massive seismic event in the internal politics of Ukraine.
Stop it with the motte & bailey. Your entire argument is premised on the idea that we orchestrated the Maidan. You say it just like you did above "the role of Nuland/CIA." Well, were their actions dispositive or not?
How many voters in the East of the country looked at what happened in Kyiv and said "well even when we vote our guy in they just use street thugs to throw him out"
about half. And Russia exploited that with little green men to destabilize the province, then invade it. Which of course, is our fault, according to you.
Example...lets say you were an average conservative American in flyover country and you watched as the BLM protesters drove Trump from power in summer of 2020 how would you feel? What if you then found out that the Chinese communists had been giving billions to Leftists NGOs and Leftists activist groups on the ground. What if Chinese politicians had flown into DC to give encouragement to the protestors? What if Chinese bureaucrats were seen on the streets handing out sweats?
The proper analog would be this: the MAGA movement drove Trump from power for NOT signing a bill that would fully fund the wall and build the infrastructure to conduct mass deportations like he promised, because the Mexico (controlled by drug cartels) paid him to balk at it. And then, after he left and RDS was sworn in and started actually building wall and deporting people, Mexico invaded to take New Mexico and Arizona. Yeah, the public would be pretty upset about that. People from all across the political spectrum would line up to go fight the Mexican Army and take back Arizona and New Mexico.
Would you come away from that bloody event thinking everything was on the up and up?
You are letting false premises lead you to sophomoric conclusions.
Ukraine has fought Russia to remain independent many times. We are not obligated to stand by and let them lose this one just because they've lost others. We are in fact obligated to do what is good for us. And a Ukraine aligned with us is good for us. That getting to that point involves destroying tens of thousands of tanks and arty tubes and killing a generation of Russians?.....well that is tens of thousands of tanks and tubes and a generation of Russian soldiers that we no longer have to plan to destroy in central Europe. That we will have to help rebuild Ukrainian cities rather than Baltic cities, Polish cities, Romanian cities, etc......that is an entirely noble endeavor. It's why we engage in alliance. To deter, and if necessary defeat threats.
We're not fighting to keep Ukraine independent. We're fighting to own them.
You have to fight for peace so the bankers can make $$ on the bombs and then loans to the country for the rebuild, and when they cant pay the debt, the bankers take the REAL ASSETS. Same playbook has been used for centuries. Warriors and fighters are being eliminated, resistance to the western machine is being culled on all fronts.
If Russia owns them, then oligarchs run the show, and there's a VERY TINY chance they are more powerful and become a marginally larger threat to Europe.
If the west owns them, we flood their country with anti Judeo-Christian immigrants and spread our woke dogma just like we've done all over Europe for quite some time now.
Lets just skip to the end and set aside $5 trillion, get directly involved in this war, avoid peace and spread the woke gospel as the American people continue to be wage slaves battling money printing to make this all possible.
sombear said:
Hilarious: "conventional, somewhat conservative . . ."
Meantime
sombear said:
Hilarious: "conventional, somewhat conservative . . ."
Meantime:
Closest allies: North Korea, China, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran
sombea said:
Elections: Kill or jail your opponents no matter where they are.
Economy: Government still controls, just in different ways. While not socialist in the traditional sense, to most of the population it is worse, as gov benefits are less.
Freedom of speech in name only.
Mass state corruption.
State-controlled media.
Surveillance state.
No due process.
Nominal judicial independence.
Surely this is not genuine? https://t.co/Zvl50xGAEr
— Peter Hitchens (@ClarkeMicah) June 12, 2024
The guy that wrote the Cato article was fired by them for being a Russian shill. True story.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:
Kirill was a state asset under the USSR and the church an instrument of the state. He remains one for the state today and the church an instrument as well.
The state owned the major industrial and energy assets under the USSR, doling out special positions to political powerbrokers and political allies. The state still owns the major industrial and energy assets, doling out wealth to political powerbrokers and political allies.
Party heads approved who could and couldn't run for positions in the government under the USSR. Party heads approve who can and can't run for positions in the government today.
The state owned the major media outlets under the USSR. The state owns the major media outlets in Russia today.
The list goes on, but as they say, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
When even the most aggressively anti-Putin and anti-Russian newspapers and commentators are not making the argument that the USSR and Russ. Federation are the same you should probably drop the losing argument.
1. No would could run for office in the USSR and not be a member of the Communist party. It was a totalitarian system
In the modern Russ Federation there are other parties in the State Duma even if United Russia has the lions share. Its autocratic not totalitarian
[The political system of the Soviet Union took place in a federal single-party soviet socialist republic framework which was characterized by the superior role of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU), the only party permitted by the Constitution.]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Duma
2. Despite the similarity in corruption the economic system was drastically different under the USSR and Russ. Fed
[As a socialist state, the Soviet Union did not include open markets. The Soviet Union was a command economy, in which economic decisions were made by the state and not left to the market to decide. During the Soviet era, for example, industrial production was planned by the central government. The government would decide what would be produced, where it would be produced, the quantity produced, the number of workers who would produce it, where the raw materials would come from, and how the final product would be distributed. By mobilizing the entire country to work toward common goals, the USSR was able to achieve the rapid industrialization that it so desired. However, the Soviets underestimated the power and efficiency of free-enterprise capitalism, and their socialist system was undermined by waste, fraud, and corruption.
Another main economic feature of the Soviet Union was collectivized agriculture. The Soviet leaders did not want individual, capitalist farmers to become rich and threaten their economic system. Nor did they want thousands of small, inefficient farms when the country was perpetually unable to feed itself. Instead, they decided to streamline agricultural production into large farm factories. All the farmland in each area was consolidated into a government-owned collective operation....Collectivized agriculture remained the norm in the Soviet Union until the country's dissolution in 1991...
A Russian style of capitalism replaced the social, political, and economic system of the Communist era with a growing market economy. The export of Russia's vast quantities of natural resources, such as oil, natural gas, and timber, to Europe and the rest of the world helped the country rebound from the economic collapse of the 1990s. Russia has benefited from the recent increase in energy prices, and oil, natural gas, metals, and timber account for more than 80 percent of exports and 30 percent of government revenues..]
[Wealth, once controlled by the political/party elite, was now being shifted to the business elite, a pattern found in most capitalist countries]
https://open.lib.umn.edu/worldgeography/chapter/3-2-the-ussr-and-the-russian-federation/
[One obvious difference between the Soviet Union and Russia is that the Soviet governing elite embraced Marxism-Leninism and its objective of world revolution. Today's Russia is not a messianic power. Its economic system is a rather mundane variety of corrupt crony capitalism, not rigid state socialism. The political system is a conservative autocracy with aspects of a rigged democracy, not a one party dictatorship that brooks no dissent whatsoever.
Russia is hardly a Western style democracy, but neither is it a continuation of the Soviet Union's horrifically brutal totalitarianism. Indeed, the country's political and social philosophy is quite different from that of its predecessor. For example, the Orthodox Church had no meaningful influence during the Soviet era something that was unsurprising, given communism's official policy of atheism. But today, the Orthodox Church has a considerable influence in Putin's Russia, especially on social issues.
The bottom line is that Russia is a conventional, somewhat conservative, power, whereas the Soviet Union was a messianic, totalitarian power. That's a rather large and significant difference, and U.S. policy needs to reflect that realization.]
https://www.cato.org/commentary/russia-not-soviet-union
2. Cathedral of Christ the Saviour
— Culture Critic (@Culture_Crit) June 12, 2024
Another of the wondrous, Byzantine-influenced domes of the Russian Empire (modern-day Kharkiv, Ukraine).
But this one was demolished by Stalin on his anti-religious campaign that razed thousands of churches. pic.twitter.com/f3PlbfmHaC
