Sam Lowry said:You know very well that we're not just providing weapons.whiterock said:
He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.
Back in May, I explored the likely Russian objectives for its military operations in 2024, and how it was progressing towards them. Russia has built strategic momentum with its assaults on Ukraine in the past six months. However, they have largely failed to exploit their… pic.twitter.com/NIjXS3dwDO
— Mick Ryan, AM (@WarintheFuture) July 2, 2024
Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table. This is the same concept as the Dem's weaponization of the DOJ, unless the GOP does the same and causes them pain it won't stop. There is no reason to stop. to keep hitting Putin where it hurts him and Russia is the only way, unless you want him to just keep doing this.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
If it's "bugs on a windshield" with no strategic purpose, then why do you or Putin have any concern about its use?Sam Lowry said:I mean there's no strategic purpose. It's bugs on the windshield of an oncoming truck.sombear said:No military purpose? Ukraine is taking out Russian oil and gas infrastructure, air capabilities, naval assets, air defense, supply lines, and staging areas.Sam Lowry said:You should tell that to the Biden administration because they obviously believe otherwise. That's the only reason they would allow Ukraine to lob missiles into Russian territory, which serves no military purpose.ATL Bear said:He successfully shapes, frames, and exploits sentiment the same way he has you hornswoggled Sam.Sam Lowry said:This may be the most naive post on the thread, which after a year-plus is really saying something.ATL Bear said:And what the Russian people demand or want doesn't matter in an autocracy like Putin's. That should be obvious.KaiBear said:trey3216 said:LOL. I have zero faith in some old man. I hate Biden more than 99% of the people in this country. You, on the other hand, have no idea what you're talking about regarding weaponry and what is going on here.KaiBear said:You just might be the only poster dumber than Waco47. Four Russian civilians were killed as a result of a Ukrainian missile attack using American supplied, possibly American guided weapons.trey3216 said:Missiles haven't been deployed on Russian civilians you idiot. The one you are fretting over was a missile that was hit by air defense missiles. ATACMS don't miss this badly....KaiBear said:trey3216 said:there is no US "action" without Putin's own actions. It's his own damn fault.KaiBear said:trey3216 said:so he can launch missiles at apartment buildings, markets, malls, hospitals, kidnap 100k children, rape tens of thousands of women, but something the US didn't even do is the US's fault. You're an absolute idiot if you can't see this is not our fault.KaiBear said:You just can't be this stupid.sombear said:Awww, little Vlady, whose troops rape, kidnap, and murder Ukrainian women and children, got his feelings hurt . . . so sad . . . .KaiBear said:
The BBC is reporting that 4 Russian civilians ( including 2 children ) were killed and 150 wounded by US made missiles launched by Ukraine.
Russia is claiming US specialists operated the missiles and that they were guided by US satellites.
Putin reportedly has promised a ' response '.
Time is running out. Reality is approaching day by day.
Joe Biden and his handlers are dragging the US into war with the country possessing the most hydrogen bombs on the entire planet.
Drop the foolish the Rambo / video game mentality and tell your representatives to stop this insanity.
Has he blamed us for the terrorist attacks yet?
Can you not connect the dots and evaluate where this could lead ?
Just how long before the Russian people demand an attack on US targets ?
If the Mexican drug cartels were killing US civilians with Russian supplied and Russian guided missiles.....
just how long would the US president wait for a response ?
Yes
It's a brilliant idea to supply missiles for another country to use in killing the civilians of a nuclear power with whom we are not at war with.
Yet
Just how long do you really believe Putin is going to tolerate US actions ? Another month or year ?
Just how many Russian civilians need to die before the political realities force Putin's hand ?
And try to focus ……..we are risking all this on behalf of a country the US has never considered vital to its strategic defense.
But now, somehow, someway Ukraine is worth billions of dollars ( we have to borrow to provide) and worth risking nuclear war ( that no one on this free message board is willing to fight )
A. It is not Putin's sole responsibility. Only a simpleton or John Wayne impersonator could fail to comprehend the political, economic and military actions of the United States in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.
B. MILLIONS of Ukrainians starved to death in the 1930's due to Stalin 's collectivization of Ukrainian farms.
The United States did nothing.
C. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were EXECUTED by Stalin in the 1940's following WW2 for 'collaborating' with the Germans.
The United States did nothing.
D. So doesn't it make you wonder why NOW is the United States providing BILLIONS of dollars we have to BORROW just to give it to Ukraine ? Why NOW is the United States willing to risk war with Russia by providing missiles and other weapons which are being employed on RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ?
E. And we are all comfortable and confident that these actions of the United States are well thought out and risks property evaluated by our president and Commander in Chief….JOE BIDEN ?
An old man in his 80's who is showing obvious signs of dementia on a weekly basis ?
An old man who can barely speak, freezes in place, and can not remember what he did even a week ago ?
But magically this guy can lead the US safely in a proxy war with the Russian people ?
InsanityRussian air defense reportedly shot down an ATACMS cluster munitions variant in occupied Sevastopol 2 days ago. The amount of submunitions hitting the water/beach and how they are dispersed (wider than usual) seems to confirm the missile was downed.
— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 25, 2024
This beach is only 5km away… pic.twitter.com/Bf7dwFeqcj
An obvious escalation of a war brought on in part by the oldest president in American history. A president with obvious signs of dementia.
But for some unknown reason this same old man has your blind faith in his ability to safely fight a proxy war.
Suspect I have more first hand experience with military hardware than most.
If Russian civilian casualties continue to pile up due to the use of American supplied munitions…..Putin will have no real choice but to retaliate. The Russian people will demand it.
This should be obvious to anyone.
He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
You don't think Russia keeping four provinces is worse than two? That's interesting.sombear said:His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
He's demanded 4 from the start.Sam Lowry said:You don't think Russia keeping four provinces is worse than two? That's interesting.sombear said:His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
Ukraine in NATO is the starting point for any negotiation that involves giving up land. Or, keep feeding the meat grinder. Putin wants out of this. He will get his provinces, but he will also get a NATO expansion and a DMZ...sombear said:He's demanded 4 from the start.Sam Lowry said:You don't think Russia keeping four provinces is worse than two? That's interesting.sombear said:His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
"Soviet Union's Red Banner Raised on Top of Norwegian Mountain. A state-owned Russian mining company (Arcticugol) has recently raised at least three large 3x5m Soviet flags on the Norwegian island of Svalbard, and they will continue with this provocation according to the CEO of… pic.twitter.com/tsSbHpz5vm
— Jaanika Merilo (@jaanikamerilo) July 2, 2024
Images of the latest desperation of the 2nd Army of the World
— OSINT (Uri Kikaski) 🇺🇸 🇨🇦 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇮🇱 (@UKikaski) July 2, 2024
It consists of what looks like a homemade vehicle pulling a homemade artillery piece made from a KBP 2A28 Grom 73 mm smoothbore gun that was once mounted on a BMP/BMD-1. It is so bad, that it is hard to not think it… pic.twitter.com/rvO5nEEuf4
Must have recieved their first shipment from North Korea…whiterock said:
….because things are going so well for them….Images of the latest desperation of the 2nd Army of the World
— OSINT (Uri Kikaski) 🇺🇸 🇨🇦 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇮🇱 (@UKikaski) July 2, 2024
It consists of what looks like a homemade vehicle pulling a homemade artillery piece made from a KBP 2A28 Grom 73 mm smoothbore gun that was once mounted on a BMP/BMD-1. It is so bad, that it is hard to not think it… pic.twitter.com/rvO5nEEuf4
short video of NoKo ammo performance....ATL Bear said:Must have recieved their first shipment from North Korea…whiterock said:
….because things are going so well for them….Images of the latest desperation of the 2nd Army of the World
— OSINT (Uri Kikaski) 🇺🇸 🇨🇦 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇮🇱 (@UKikaski) July 2, 2024
It consists of what looks like a homemade vehicle pulling a homemade artillery piece made from a KBP 2A28 Grom 73 mm smoothbore gun that was once mounted on a BMP/BMD-1. It is so bad, that it is hard to not think it… pic.twitter.com/rvO5nEEuf4
🇫🇷🚫🥴 Marine Le Pen said that as soon as a representative of her political force heads the government, she will prohibit Ukraine from using French long-range weapons for strikes on the Russian territory. pic.twitter.com/4flEkEpvwe
— MAKS 24 🇺🇦👀 (@Maks_NAFO_FELLA) July 5, 2024
boognish_bear said:🇫🇷🚫🥴 Marine Le Pen said that as soon as a representative of her political force heads the government, she will prohibit Ukraine from using French long-range weapons for strikes on the Russian territory. pic.twitter.com/4flEkEpvwe
— MAKS 24 🇺🇦👀 (@Maks_NAFO_FELLA) July 5, 2024
Everyone on both sides knows we're committing acts of war against Russia.whiterock said:Sam Lowry said:You know very well that we're not just providing weapons.whiterock said:
He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.
Of course! We have had intel liaison since Ukrainian independence and likely a broad range of military training in and out of country. Plus observers.
That's what great powers do!
Because it's his job to be concerned about it, and his people and his generals expect him to do his job. Even if you don't think he values his overall popularity, don't underestimate the importance of the military. Furthermore, the attacks on Russia's nuclear early warning system do have a potential purpose which he can't afford to ignore. It's just not a purpose that has anything to do with our stated intentions.ATL Bear said:If it's "bugs on a windshield" with no strategic purpose, then why do you or Putin have any concern about its use?Sam Lowry said:I mean there's no strategic purpose. It's bugs on the windshield of an oncoming truck.sombear said:No military purpose? Ukraine is taking out Russian oil and gas infrastructure, air capabilities, naval assets, air defense, supply lines, and staging areas.Sam Lowry said:You should tell that to the Biden administration because they obviously believe otherwise. That's the only reason they would allow Ukraine to lob missiles into Russian territory, which serves no military purpose.ATL Bear said:He successfully shapes, frames, and exploits sentiment the same way he has you hornswoggled Sam.Sam Lowry said:This may be the most naive post on the thread, which after a year-plus is really saying something.ATL Bear said:And what the Russian people demand or want doesn't matter in an autocracy like Putin's. That should be obvious.KaiBear said:trey3216 said:LOL. I have zero faith in some old man. I hate Biden more than 99% of the people in this country. You, on the other hand, have no idea what you're talking about regarding weaponry and what is going on here.KaiBear said:You just might be the only poster dumber than Waco47. Four Russian civilians were killed as a result of a Ukrainian missile attack using American supplied, possibly American guided weapons.trey3216 said:Missiles haven't been deployed on Russian civilians you idiot. The one you are fretting over was a missile that was hit by air defense missiles. ATACMS don't miss this badly....KaiBear said:trey3216 said:there is no US "action" without Putin's own actions. It's his own damn fault.KaiBear said:trey3216 said:so he can launch missiles at apartment buildings, markets, malls, hospitals, kidnap 100k children, rape tens of thousands of women, but something the US didn't even do is the US's fault. You're an absolute idiot if you can't see this is not our fault.KaiBear said:You just can't be this stupid.sombear said:Awww, little Vlady, whose troops rape, kidnap, and murder Ukrainian women and children, got his feelings hurt . . . so sad . . . .KaiBear said:
The BBC is reporting that 4 Russian civilians ( including 2 children ) were killed and 150 wounded by US made missiles launched by Ukraine.
Russia is claiming US specialists operated the missiles and that they were guided by US satellites.
Putin reportedly has promised a ' response '.
Time is running out. Reality is approaching day by day.
Joe Biden and his handlers are dragging the US into war with the country possessing the most hydrogen bombs on the entire planet.
Drop the foolish the Rambo / video game mentality and tell your representatives to stop this insanity.
Has he blamed us for the terrorist attacks yet?
Can you not connect the dots and evaluate where this could lead ?
Just how long before the Russian people demand an attack on US targets ?
If the Mexican drug cartels were killing US civilians with Russian supplied and Russian guided missiles.....
just how long would the US president wait for a response ?
Yes
It's a brilliant idea to supply missiles for another country to use in killing the civilians of a nuclear power with whom we are not at war with.
Yet
Just how long do you really believe Putin is going to tolerate US actions ? Another month or year ?
Just how many Russian civilians need to die before the political realities force Putin's hand ?
And try to focus ……..we are risking all this on behalf of a country the US has never considered vital to its strategic defense.
But now, somehow, someway Ukraine is worth billions of dollars ( we have to borrow to provide) and worth risking nuclear war ( that no one on this free message board is willing to fight )
A. It is not Putin's sole responsibility. Only a simpleton or John Wayne impersonator could fail to comprehend the political, economic and military actions of the United States in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion.
B. MILLIONS of Ukrainians starved to death in the 1930's due to Stalin 's collectivization of Ukrainian farms.
The United States did nothing.
C. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were EXECUTED by Stalin in the 1940's following WW2 for 'collaborating' with the Germans.
The United States did nothing.
D. So doesn't it make you wonder why NOW is the United States providing BILLIONS of dollars we have to BORROW just to give it to Ukraine ? Why NOW is the United States willing to risk war with Russia by providing missiles and other weapons which are being employed on RUSSIAN CIVILIANS ?
E. And we are all comfortable and confident that these actions of the United States are well thought out and risks property evaluated by our president and Commander in Chief….JOE BIDEN ?
An old man in his 80's who is showing obvious signs of dementia on a weekly basis ?
An old man who can barely speak, freezes in place, and can not remember what he did even a week ago ?
But magically this guy can lead the US safely in a proxy war with the Russian people ?
InsanityRussian air defense reportedly shot down an ATACMS cluster munitions variant in occupied Sevastopol 2 days ago. The amount of submunitions hitting the water/beach and how they are dispersed (wider than usual) seems to confirm the missile was downed.
— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 25, 2024
This beach is only 5km away… pic.twitter.com/Bf7dwFeqcj
An obvious escalation of a war brought on in part by the oldest president in American history. A president with obvious signs of dementia.
But for some unknown reason this same old man has your blind faith in his ability to safely fight a proxy war.
Suspect I have more first hand experience with military hardware than most.
If Russian civilian casualties continue to pile up due to the use of American supplied munitions…..Putin will have no real choice but to retaliate. The Russian people will demand it.
This should be obvious to anyone.
My position is that it's past time to stop moralizing and start strategizing. Telling Russia "that's not okay" is, once again, not a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
So, your position is that it is not only OK for Putin to invade a sovereign Nation, but no one can help the invaded Nation and cannot even provide them ammunition.
Should we wash his windshield too while at it? Maybe require Ukraine to only test fire into the sea with any US weapons? Your position is ludicrous.
We should help Ukraine as long as Ukraine needs help. That is what allies do.
No. See Istanbul and Minsk, among others.sombear said:He's demanded 4 from the start.Sam Lowry said:You don't think Russia keeping four provinces is worse than two? That's interesting.sombear said:His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
Sam Lowry said:My position is that it's past time to stop moralizing and start strategizing. Telling Russia "that's not okay" is, once again, not a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
So, your position is that it is not only OK for Putin to invade a sovereign Nation, but no one can help the invaded Nation and cannot even provide them ammunition.
Should we wash his windshield too while at it? Maybe require Ukraine to only test fire into the sea with any US weapons? Your position is ludicrous.
We should help Ukraine as long as Ukraine needs help. That is what allies do.
Not one time. Not one single act. No matter how hard you try......Sam Lowry said:Everyone on both sides knows we're committing acts of war against Russia.whiterock said:Sam Lowry said:You know very well that we're not just providing weapons.whiterock said:
He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.
Of course! We have had intel liaison since Ukrainian independence and likely a broad range of military training in and out of country. Plus observers.
That's what great powers do!
But the Russians rejected that approach publicly in the first days of April. "Among our non-negotiable demands," Medinsky later recalled, "were the recognition of Russian sovereignty over Crimea [and] the recognition of the independence of the Donbass republics." There was no prospect that Ukraine could have kept its eastern territories by agreeing to neutrality.Sam Lowry said:No. See Istanbul and Minsk, among others.sombear said:He's demanded 4 from the start.Sam Lowry said:You don't think Russia keeping four provinces is worse than two? That's interesting.sombear said:His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
LOLwhiterock said:Not one time. Not one single act. No matter how hard you try......Sam Lowry said:Everyone on both sides knows we're committing acts of war against Russia.whiterock said:Sam Lowry said:You know very well that we're not just providing weapons.whiterock said:
He's got a faulty premise that he cannot/will not drop, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to us. Providing weapons to a sovereign country is not an act of war.
Of course! We have had intel liaison since Ukrainian independence and likely a broad range of military training in and out of country. Plus observers.
That's what great powers do!
The act of war was when Russia invaded Ukraine.
Donbas = two provinces.sombear said:But the Russians rejected that approach publicly in the first days of April. "Among our non-negotiable demands," Medinsky later recalled, "were the recognition of Russian sovereignty over Crimea [and] the recognition of the independence of the Donbass republics." There was no prospect that Ukraine could have kept its eastern territories by agreeing to neutrality.Sam Lowry said:No. See Istanbul and Minsk, among others.sombear said:He's demanded 4 from the start.Sam Lowry said:You don't think Russia keeping four provinces is worse than two? That's interesting.sombear said:His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
Minsk was 15 years ago and wasn't followed anways.
No. It is not a strategy unless you can explain how it leads to victory.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:My position is that it's past time to stop moralizing and start strategizing. Telling Russia "that's not okay" is, once again, not a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
So, your position is that it is not only OK for Putin to invade a sovereign Nation, but no one can help the invaded Nation and cannot even provide them ammunition.
Should we wash his windshield too while at it? Maybe require Ukraine to only test fire into the sea with any US weapons? Your position is ludicrous.
We should help Ukraine as long as Ukraine needs help. That is what allies do.
Supplying weapons, Intel and aid is a strategy.
Wait, what 4 are you talking about then?Sam Lowry said:Donbas = two provinces.sombear said:But the Russians rejected that approach publicly in the first days of April. "Among our non-negotiable demands," Medinsky later recalled, "were the recognition of Russian sovereignty over Crimea [and] the recognition of the independence of the Donbass republics." There was no prospect that Ukraine could have kept its eastern territories by agreeing to neutrality.Sam Lowry said:No. See Istanbul and Minsk, among others.sombear said:He's demanded 4 from the start.Sam Lowry said:You don't think Russia keeping four provinces is worse than two? That's interesting.sombear said:His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
Minsk was 15 years ago and wasn't followed anways.
Luhansk, Donestsk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson. That's the offer referred to as Istanbul Plus.sombear said:Wait, what 4 are you talking about then?Sam Lowry said:Donbas = two provinces.sombear said:But the Russians rejected that approach publicly in the first days of April. "Among our non-negotiable demands," Medinsky later recalled, "were the recognition of Russian sovereignty over Crimea [and] the recognition of the independence of the Donbass republics." There was no prospect that Ukraine could have kept its eastern territories by agreeing to neutrality.Sam Lowry said:No. See Istanbul and Minsk, among others.sombear said:He's demanded 4 from the start.Sam Lowry said:You don't think Russia keeping four provinces is worse than two? That's interesting.sombear said:His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
Minsk was 15 years ago and wasn't followed anways.
Sam Lowry said:No. It is not a strategy unless you can explain how it leads to victory.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:My position is that it's past time to stop moralizing and start strategizing. Telling Russia "that's not okay" is, once again, not a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
So, your position is that it is not only OK for Putin to invade a sovereign Nation, but no one can help the invaded Nation and cannot even provide them ammunition.
Should we wash his windshield too while at it? Maybe require Ukraine to only test fire into the sea with any US weapons? Your position is ludicrous.
We should help Ukraine as long as Ukraine needs help. That is what allies do.
Supplying weapons, Intel and aid is a strategy.
Right. The Russians take Crimea for granted. Never has been and never will be on the table. Kiev and Odessa will be if we keep this going.sombear said:Wait, what 4 are you talking about then?Sam Lowry said:Donbas = two provinces.sombear said:But the Russians rejected that approach publicly in the first days of April. "Among our non-negotiable demands," Medinsky later recalled, "were the recognition of Russian sovereignty over Crimea [and] the recognition of the independence of the Donbass republics." There was no prospect that Ukraine could have kept its eastern territories by agreeing to neutrality.Sam Lowry said:No. See Istanbul and Minsk, among others.sombear said:He's demanded 4 from the start.Sam Lowry said:You don't think Russia keeping four provinces is worse than two? That's interesting.sombear said:His offers have not gotten worse.Sam Lowry said:He's made half a dozen offers, and each one is worse than the last. That is not a sign of feeling pain.FLBear5630 said:Sam Lowry said:Which we're not doing, at least not on our terms. These attacks aren't changing anything on the battlefield. If they led to a major setback, or even any setback, that might be causing pain. Then you'd have some semblance of a strategy.FLBear5630 said:Sure it is, you have to cause Putin enough pain to bring him to the table.Sam Lowry said:What does that mean? Another year of so-called stalemate? Escalation with NATO troops? Missile strikes on the Kremlin?FLBear5630 said:Keep going obviously.Sam Lowry said:Russia would have to be in a much, much worse position before they'd even talk about Ukraine entering NATO. So that just brings us back to the question of how to get there.FLBear5630 said:Buying time for negotiated Peace that is NOT all Russia's way. This is going to end up with a buffer/DMZ. Ukraine has lost Dombas and Crimea. Ukraine will enter NATO and this is over.Sam Lowry said:
You already know my opinion. I'm asking what you would do. Short of committing American troops to a five or ten-year war with potentially hundreds of thousands killed (if we're lucky and it doesn't go nuclear), how are you going to win?
What we're doing now has no significant effect and isn't a strategy for victory. It's just a way of buying time. The question you need to ask yourself is, buying time for what?
You may find you don't like the answer.
That is the what. And I like it fine. It meets all the requirements and the DMZ keeps Poland and the Baltics happy. Done. Biden is the ******* that is keeping it going, Trump ends it in 3 months.
"Just keep doing something" isn't a plan.
Putin is complaining about targets being hit in Russia and talking about peace, Putin is feeling pain.
Minsk was 15 years ago and wasn't followed anways.
Edit: I got it now. I was including Crimea. You were including Kherson and Zap.
