Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Fre3dombear said:
Mothra said:
Fre3dombear said:
Mothra said:
I already responded to Coke. You would like me to respond twice?
As I pointed out above, the verses he cited don't mention purgatory nor do they insinuate its existence. When God says nothing unclean will enter heaven, that in no way implies the existence of a place never mentioned or alluded to in scripture. Coke is making some logical leaps regarding what scripture alludes to. Therein lies the problem.
Again, these arguments have been addressed. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Do you have any scriptural support for your position?
Things not said in the bible:
Trinity
Sola fide
Sola scriptura
Osas
Abortion
And i could go On and on
Weak defense of your position as always. Burden is upon you as what youre believing didnt exist for at least 1500 years and all that im discussing has 1) Biblical roots noted ad nauseum and 2) has supporting writings from many many church fathers dating back to Christ / near Christ etc . That would give me and most any logical person pause to refute that based on luther and calvin etc.
What of all the souls that lived and died not even knowing or thinking any thought youre suggesting in this context from say 33AD to 1521 when Martin Luther desperately desired to get laid?
I rest very very easy knowing my beliefs of my Catholic church remain consistent for 2000 years on these concepts from the scripture.
God will reveal all to us in the end but I and any Catholic can logically lay out, which has been done, the root of these concepts and the reasons for belief in them.
I wont tell you you and your family are going to hell for your beliefs as some on here (even you I guess with your "i Pray you find Jesus comment) seem to suggest. Some of those same people here passionately believe Mary isnt the mother of God so i personally would be very wary of throwing in with much of that crowds belief
Ill leave that to God to decide if John 6:53 and many other commands he gave that Protestants claim they dint believe in mattered, if you will go to purgatory or not after you die or immediately to Heaven (which level?) etc
Regardless i pray to see you there and will even buy you a beer if youll drink it and we can chuckle at what we got right and what we got wrong. What verses mattered and which ones we could pick and choose to ignore etc.
As another fun example i use in many talks is just ask siri who founded the Catholic church and when and who founded the Baptist church (or any of the 44,998 flavors) and when? . Which one of yall 44,998 religions is right? How do i know which to join?
So, you start a thread on the existence of purgatory, and have failed to provide even a shred of scriptural support for same (despite repeated request), but it's somehow my burden to disprove its existence? Hmmm. I am not sure you fully-understand burdens of proof. When you make a baseless and unsupported claim, no proof is needed to disprove it.
With respect to your allegation that the words "Trinity, Sola fide, Sola scriptura, Osas and Abortion" do not appear in scripture, we agree on this point. The difference between the first four concepts and purgatory is there is ample scriptural support for each of these concepts, as opposed to purgatory. With respect to abortion, I believe the practice is condemned in a number of verses, not the least of which is, "Thou shall not kill."
Can't really comment on the rest of your post. My issue with Catholicism is the lack of scriptural support for many of its beliefs, some of which I believe are diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings and the Holy Scriptures. While I realize that Catholics place precedence on "tradition," I think as with all things, tradition needs to be weighed against scripture, and where there is inconsistency, or the failure to find support for a tradition in scripture, I think such traditions are suspect and require very close scrutiny.
We also vehemently disagree that the Catholicism you practice existed at or around the time of Christ. What you practice looks nothing like the early church described in Acts, which simply was not Catholic in any sense of the word. I know you will vehemently disagree with this, but I think the difference between us is you once again lack the scriptural support for your position.
1) see coke bears post. I can add more but it is a screed of scriptural support for purgatory. Just because you say its not, nobody can help you there it would appear. You seem to want me to repost those verses for some reason.
We've been over this. The handful of verses Coke Bear references do not mention or suggest the existence of a place mentioned nowhere in scripture. You have to make some pretty substantial logical leaps to get to the position that the verses he cites suggest the existence of purgatory.
If the dead were in heaven or in hell, there was no need to make atonement for them or way to deliver them from their sins. If they weren't in heaven or hell, they must have been some place else. In terms of logic, it doesn't get much simpler than that.
Who said the dead aren't in Heaven or Hell? Certainly not scripture.
And even if it did say that, it wouldn't logically flow that they are in some fictitious, unmentioned place called "Purgatory" where they are being cleansed and atoning for their sins. Not only is such a concept unmentioned in scripture, it is diametrically opposed to Christ's teachings.
Scripture mentions that they are atoning for their sins. This implies that they aren't in heaven or hell, unless you believe heaven and hell are places of atonement and cleansing.
Christ also mentions sin that is not forgiven in this world or the next, which seems to endorse the Jewish tradition known to his audience.
Per my previous post, can you cite the verses you believe support your position that the dead are atoning for their sins? Can you also cite the verses where Christ mentions sin is not forgiven in this world or the next?
Thanks.
See Coke Bear's earlier post: https://sicem365.com/forums/7/topics/152842/replies/4224237
The other reference is Matthew 12:31-32.
Thanks. As pointed out above, the problem with the verses cited by Coke Bear as they in no way support the positions you've put forth, and one must instead make a number of assumptions and logical leaps to arrive at the conclusion that a place called purgatory actually exists. Let's take your cite to Matt. 12:31-32 for example.
Matt. 12:31-32 provides: "
Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
It appears your argument here is that Jesus implies that sins can be forgiven in the age to come, that is, after death, and this therefore supports the existence of purgatory. However, from a pure logical standpoint, this passage can mean at least two things. First, it could mean that people can be forgiven after death. Or, given the absence of any mention of a place like "purgatory," it could mean that Jesus is simply emphasizing that blasphemy against the Spirit will
never be forgiven, using the "age to come" for emphasis.
How do we know which one is correct? If we find Scripture that does not support the Catholic view, we have to reject it, and indeed we do. Hebrews 9:27 says, "
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment." If judgment comes after death, then it is logically not possible that a person could be forgiven after death.
Moreover, it should also be pointed out that to the Catholic church, purgatory does not "forgive" sins, of which Matthew 12 speaks. Rather, purgatory "purifies" sinners. Catholicism's own teaching says nothing about sins being forgiven in purgatory; instead, the person must atone for these sins via the purifying fire of purgatory. If they were forgiven, there would be no need to atone for anything.
Finally, as with the verses cited by Coke Bear, it is again worth taking note that there is no mention of a place called purgatory, or even a place like it, in this verse of the verses cited by Coke. And yet, we have numerous references to Hell/Hades/Sheol and numerous references to Heaven/Paradise, but not a single mention of some separate plain where sinners must atone and be purified of sin. This alone should cause any Catholic to seriously question the existence of such a place.
