Imagine willfully not trying tohonor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

101,309 Views | 1646 Replies | Last: 17 min ago by Doc Holliday
Sam Lowry
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Newman on sola scriptura:

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Now, my dear brethren, consider, are not these two states or acts of mind quite distinct from each other; to believe simply what a living authority tells you, and to take a book such as Scripture, and to use it as you please, to master it, that is, to make yourself the master of it, to interpret it for yourself, and to admit just what you choose to see in it, and nothing more? Are not these two procedures distinct in this, that in the former you submit, in the latter you judge? At this moment I am not asking you which is the better, I am not asking whether this or that is practicable now, but are they not two ways of taking up a doctrine, and not one? is not submission quite contrary to judging? Now, is it not certain that faith in the time of the Apostles consisted in submitting? and is it not certain that it did not consist in judging for one's self. It is in vain to say that the man who judges from the Apostle's writings, does submit to those writings in the first instance, and therefore has faith in them; else why should he refer to them at all? There is, I repeat, an essential difference between the act of submitting to a living oracle, and to his written words; in the former case there is no appeal from the speaker, in the latter the final decision remains with the reader.

I think I may assume that this virtue, which was exercised by the first Christians, is not known at all among Protestants now; or at least if there are instances of it, it is exercised towards those, I mean their own teachers and divines, who expressly disclaim that they are fit objects of it, and who exhort their people to judge themselves. Protestants, generally speaking, have not faith, in the primitive meaning of that word; this is clear from what I have been saying and here is a confirmation of it. If men believed now as they did in the times of the Apostles, they could not doubt or change. No one can doubt whether a word spoken by God is to be believed; of course it is; whereas any one, who is modest and humble, may easily be brought to doubt of his own inferences and deductions. Since men now-a-days deduce from Scripture, instead of believing a teacher, you may expect to see them waver about; they will feel the force of their own deductions more strongly at one time than at another, they will change their minds about them, or perhaps deny them altogether; whereas this cannot be, while a man has faith, that is, belief that what a preacher says to him comes from God.

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Let them consider, that if they can criticize history, the facts of history certainly can retort upon them. It might, I grant, be clearer on this great subject than it is. This is no great concession. History is not a creed or a catechism, it gives lessons rather than rules; still no one can mistake its general teaching in this matter, whether he accept it or stumble at it. Bold outlines and broad masses of colour rise out of the records of the past. They may be dim, they may be incomplete; but they are definite. And this one thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches, whatever it omits, whatever it exaggerates or extenuates, whatever it says and unsays, at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this.

And Protestantism has ever felt it so. I do not mean that every writer on the Protestant side has felt it; for it was the fashion at first, at least as a rhetorical argument against Rome, to appeal to past ages, or to some of them; but Protestantism, as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination already referred to of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone: men never would have put it aside, unless they had despaired of it. It is shown by the long neglect of ecclesiastical history in England, which prevails even in the English Church. Our popular religion scarcely recognizes the fact of the twelve long ages which lie between the Councils of Nicaea and Trent, except as affording one or two passages to illustrate its wild interpretations of certain prophesies of St. Paul and St. John. It is melancholy to say it, but the chief, perhaps the only English writer who has any claim to be considered an ecclesiastical historian, is the unbeliever Gibbon. To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

Doc Holliday
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Oldbear83 said:

Doc: " Five centuries later there's a straight line from Wittenberg to the Episcopal Church blessing same sex unions. You can be angry about that observation but it's not a myth and it's not a taunt. "

What you have there is a biased claim based completely on filtered opinion. I certainly do not deny that there have been false teachers and that many have fallen away, just as Jesus warned. But the error in your claim is the lie that this started with the Reformation. Accounts of proud and false teachers in the Church go all the way back to the missions of Paul. And the notion that the Roman leaders were true and faithful to Christ all through their history is a deluded fiction; the Reformation was spurred by very real sins by RCC leaders.

The key observation for both sides should be, in my opinion, that all men have sinned and we must all be wary to check our egos and put away petty sniping at other denominations, preferring to let iron sharpen iron and support one another where someone does right, and to correct privately where error is found, but never in the arrogance of imagining our opinion is perfect.
Yes, there were false teachers in Paul's day. The difference? The Church had a structure to identify, condemn, and exclude them. Councils. Bishops in succession. Binding authority. That's why those heresies didn't produce 40,000 denominations. Go read Acts, there's a literal council in scripture.

Again I'm not Roman Catholic brother. You've got to understand that RC started/established in the 1000s.
I never claimed it started with the reformation. We agree. It started in 1054, when the Roman Church broke communion with the apostolic consensus. It broke away from Orthodoxy. Luther exposed the rot that Rome's unaccountable authority had produced.

The Reformers didn't escape Rome's theological framework. They inherited it wholesale and intensified it. They'd rejected Rome's answers but never questioned Rome's questions. So the Reformation wasn't a recovery of ancient Christianity. It was a family dispute between two branches of a tradition that had already departed from the apostolic theological framework centuries earlier.

If there is one truth, one faith once delivered to the saints, then there must be a reliable mechanism for identifying it. A standard that actually produces unity, not just demands it. It's NOT ok for everyone to not be on the same page: that's how you end up with woke churches, Mormons, prosperity gospel, charismatics and who know what crazy branches will develop over the next several hundred years.

We lead people astray on this ecumenical model. It's sinful.
 
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