Fre3dombear said:LIB,MR BEARS said:Oldbear83 said:
When someone needs a Pope for an intercessor when he could have Christ, well ...
In Matthew 27:51, why was the veil torn? Why was it torn from top to bottom?
Who sewed the veil that was torn?
LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:LIB,MR BEARS said:
Please explainDear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH
— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026
Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?
It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".
So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.
It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"
And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.
That's the way you see it.
I'm trying to have a dialogue you're, by your own admission are yelling at people.
Yes, yelling is often required to those who's hearing is dulled.
You have the "dialogue" you want. I just don't see the utility or even the relevance of your "whataboutism" regarding protestant follies here and there that have nothing to do with me or others, in a thread about Marian "veneration", i.e. idolatry.
I've stated that I think we all have somethings wrong. But, there are some VERY clear things in scripture. To borrow from Alistair Begg, "the plain things are the main things and, the main things are the plain things."
I believe those clear things should be dogma and we should be dogmatic on them. On things that are somewhat vague I don't want to be dogmatic on them and I certainly don't want to hold someone to my dogma.
I'm a Protestant who has been married to a Catholic for nearly 40 years. There is a reason that I've not converted to Catholicism.
If you think dialogue is "whataboutism", I'm sorry.
I can only ask you a question.
After speaking (yelling) what you see as the truth, do you believe anyone will be converted by more yelling?
Plant and water all you can. But, keep in mind, it is God that gives the increase. I don't think more yelling is going to move Him any faster.
What is not a "main thing" about what I'm adressing? If you don't see the Roman Catholic church's authority having a hold over their people into believing a false gospel as well as towards heresy and idolatry as a "main thing" that has eternal consequences, then that leaves me to wonder.
I'm really not understanding the point of your "dialogue" - since there are crazy, unbiblical protestant churches out there..... DON'T call out the errors of the Roman Catholic church... in a thread about that topic?? Because that would be "yelling", right?
And remember, I WAS THE ONE simply asking a question. But somehow, when I do it, it's unproductive "yelling", but when you do it, it's "dialogue". Your perception here is unbalanced an unimpartial, and now I know why - you're married to a Catholic, so you're treating it with kid gloves as you're accustomed to, no doubt, in family gatherings. You might even be offended for their sake by what I'm saying. Understandable, but your bias and whataboutism isn't really doing anything to move the needle here. How does showing crazy protestants jumping on the pulpit show Roman Catholics their errors and get them to repent?
I'm not really here to convert people. If it somehow happens, then to God be all the glory. All I'm aiming to do, is to biblically, factually, historically, and logically argue for the truth, and to show others that they're position is NOT defendable in like manner. What they do with that is up to them. And yes, I think I've been successful at that. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to argue against anything I've said.
You can try your "kid glove" approach if that's what you think is best. But I think that people with deeply rooted beliefs like Roman Catholics must have their beliefs uprooted before any seed planted and watered will be able to grow.
I didn't say whether or not your point is a main thing or not. I stated my position and asked you to consider whether your yelling is beneficial.
You come across as someone that would rather win an argument than win a soul.
I'm a nobody with little education. It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
Oldbear83 said:Fre3dombear said:LIB,MR BEARS said:Oldbear83 said:
When someone needs a Pope for an intercessor when he could have Christ, well ...
In Matthew 27:51, why was the veil torn? Why was it torn from top to bottom?
Who sewed the veil that was torn?
Irrelevant
Fre3dombear said:Oldbear83 said:Fre3dombear said:LIB,MR BEARS said:Oldbear83 said:
When someone needs a Pope for an intercessor when he could have Christ, well ...
In Matthew 27:51, why was the veil torn? Why was it torn from top to bottom?
Who sewed the veil that was torn?
Irrelevant
Of Course it is to a Protestant Christian that willfully turned their back on Christ's church
Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:DallasBear9902 said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:DallasBear9902 said:Oldbear83 said:
Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?
Just a tad arrogant, that.
Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).
Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.
The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.
Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".
It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.
Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.
I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.
As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary
Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.
At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….
Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.
Are you familiar with the rosary?
If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.
Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.
Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.
I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.
You have never prayed the Rosary? We are called to
Pray it daily which I do as well as the Divine Mercy Chaplet
Oldbear83 said:Fre3dombear said:Oldbear83 said:Fre3dombear said:LIB,MR BEARS said:Oldbear83 said:
When someone needs a Pope for an intercessor when he could have Christ, well ...
In Matthew 27:51, why was the veil torn? Why was it torn from top to bottom?
Who sewed the veil that was torn?
Irrelevant
Of Course it is to a Protestant Christian that willfully turned their back on Christ's church
If God tore the veil, that's all that matters.
Sewing it back later won't change the message.
ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:DallasBear9902 said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:DallasBear9902 said:Oldbear83 said:
Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?
Just a tad arrogant, that.
Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).
Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.
The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.
Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".
It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.
Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.
I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.
As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary
Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.
At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….
Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.
Are you familiar with the rosary?
If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.
Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.
Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.
I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.
You have never prayed the Rosary? We are called to
Pray it daily which I do as well as the Divine Mercy Chaplet
Show me the teaching from Jesus or the apostles which instructs anyone to pray the rosary.
I'll wait
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:LIB,MR BEARS said:
Please explainDear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH
— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026
Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?
It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".
So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.
It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"
And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.
That's the way you see it.
I'm trying to have a dialogue you're, by your own admission are yelling at people.
Yes, yelling is often required to those who's hearing is dulled.
You have the "dialogue" you want. I just don't see the utility or even the relevance of your "whataboutism" regarding protestant follies here and there that have nothing to do with me or others, in a thread about Marian "veneration", i.e. idolatry.
I've stated that I think we all have somethings wrong. But, there are some VERY clear things in scripture. To borrow from Alistair Begg, "the plain things are the main things and, the main things are the plain things."
I believe those clear things should be dogma and we should be dogmatic on them. On things that are somewhat vague I don't want to be dogmatic on them and I certainly don't want to hold someone to my dogma.
I'm a Protestant who has been married to a Catholic for nearly 40 years. There is a reason that I've not converted to Catholicism.
If you think dialogue is "whataboutism", I'm sorry.
I can only ask you a question.
After speaking (yelling) what you see as the truth, do you believe anyone will be converted by more yelling?
Plant and water all you can. But, keep in mind, it is God that gives the increase. I don't think more yelling is going to move Him any faster.
What is not a "main thing" about what I'm adressing? If you don't see the Roman Catholic church's authority having a hold over their people into believing a false gospel as well as towards heresy and idolatry as a "main thing" that has eternal consequences, then that leaves me to wonder.
I'm really not understanding the point of your "dialogue" - since there are crazy, unbiblical protestant churches out there..... DON'T call out the errors of the Roman Catholic church... in a thread about that topic?? Because that would be "yelling", right?
And remember, I WAS THE ONE simply asking a question. But somehow, when I do it, it's unproductive "yelling", but when you do it, it's "dialogue". Your perception here is unbalanced an unimpartial, and now I know why - you're married to a Catholic, so you're treating it with kid gloves as you're accustomed to, no doubt, in family gatherings. You might even be offended for their sake by what I'm saying. Understandable, but your bias and whataboutism isn't really doing anything to move the needle here. How does showing crazy protestants jumping on the pulpit show Roman Catholics their errors and get them to repent?
I'm not really here to convert people. If it somehow happens, then to God be all the glory. All I'm aiming to do, is to biblically, factually, historically, and logically argue for the truth, and to show others that they're position is NOT defendable in like manner. What they do with that is up to them. And yes, I think I've been successful at that. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to argue against anything I've said.
You can try your "kid glove" approach if that's what you think is best. But I think that people with deeply rooted beliefs like Roman Catholics must have their beliefs uprooted before any seed planted and watered will be able to grow.
I didn't say whether or not your point is a main thing or not. I stated my position and asked you to consider whether your yelling is beneficial.
You come across as someone that would rather win an argument than win a soul.
I'm a nobody with little education. It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
I don't want to win arguments. I want the truth to win. What I've learned is that the more effective you are at doing that, those who you are arguing against ALWAYS go to ad hominem instead of arguing against the substance, trying to make it about their perceived personal failings of mine like you just did, in order to "soften the blow" for the sake of their psyche. Understandable, but it's just a defense mechanism, and again, it doesn't change any of the truth.
Thanks for offering your opinion. I'm sorry, I can't take it too serously, because you continue to call what I'm doing "yelling" when I literally did the same thing you did by asking a question. I understand your family situation predisposes you towards a certain bias, lack of objectivity, and sensitivity concerning the topic, which leads you to view my comments with distaste. But what you can't argue, is that what I'm saying is NOT true. And that's all I'm really aiming for. If you disagree, then feel free to argue against anything I've said.
Fre3dombear said:LIB,MR BEARS said:Oldbear83 said:
When someone needs a Pope for an intercessor when he could have Christ, well ...
In Matthew 27:51, why was the veil torn? Why was it torn from top to bottom?
Who sewed the veil that was torn?
Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:DallasBear9902 said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:DallasBear9902 said:Oldbear83 said:
Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?
Just a tad arrogant, that.
Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).
Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.
The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.
Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".
It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.
Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.
I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.
As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary
Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.
At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….
Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.
Are you familiar with the rosary?
If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.
Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.
Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.
I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.
You have never prayed the Rosary? We are called to
Pray it daily which I do as well as the Divine Mercy Chaplet
Show me the teaching from Jesus or the apostles which instructs anyone to pray the rosary.
I'll wait
As expected…it's a choice you're allowed to make of course.
ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:DallasBear9902 said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:DallasBear9902 said:Oldbear83 said:
Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?
Just a tad arrogant, that.
Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).
Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.
The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.
Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".
It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.
Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.
I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.
As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary
Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.
At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….
Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.
Are you familiar with the rosary?
If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.
Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.
Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.
I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.
You have never prayed the Rosary? We are called to
Pray it daily which I do as well as the Divine Mercy Chaplet
Show me the teaching from Jesus or the apostles which instructs anyone to pray the rosary.
I'll wait
LIB,MR BEARS said:Fre3dombear said:LIB,MR BEARS said:Oldbear83 said:
When someone needs a Pope for an intercessor when he could have Christ, well ...
In Matthew 27:51, why was the veil torn? Why was it torn from top to bottom?
Who sewed the veil that was torn?
I'll answer your question after you answer mine
the abraham covenant was complete and a new covenant was instituted in Christ Jesus?Fre3dombear said:LIB,MR BEARS said:Fre3dombear said:LIB,MR BEARS said:Oldbear83 said:
When someone needs a Pope for an intercessor when he could have Christ, well ...
In Matthew 27:51, why was the veil torn? Why was it torn from top to bottom?
Who sewed the veil that was torn?
I'll answer your question after you answer mine
Didnt know that was for me.
Catholics believe this actually happened ,not something symbolic like Protestant Christians would say the Eucharist is.
Several meanings from my understanding: old covenant / new, thru Christ all can approach at any time where preciously only select few etc and certain times
Top to bottom as was done by God from Heaven to earth.
Why do you think it was torn?
Fre3dombear said:Oldbear83 said:Fre3dombear said:Oldbear83 said:Fre3dombear said:LIB,MR BEARS said:Oldbear83 said:
When someone needs a Pope for an intercessor when he could have Christ, well ...
In Matthew 27:51, why was the veil torn? Why was it torn from top to bottom?
Who sewed the veil that was torn?
Irrelevant
Of Course it is to a Protestant Christian that willfully turned their back on Christ's church
If God tore the veil, that's all that matters.
Sewing it back later won't change the message.
Hahaha "sewing it back". Thanks for the chuckle. My apologies. That was funny
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:LIB,MR BEARS said:
Please explainDear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH
— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026
Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?
It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".
So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.
It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"
And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.
That's the way you see it.
I'm trying to have a dialogue you're, by your own admission are yelling at people.
Yes, yelling is often required to those who's hearing is dulled.
You have the "dialogue" you want. I just don't see the utility or even the relevance of your "whataboutism" regarding protestant follies here and there that have nothing to do with me or others, in a thread about Marian "veneration", i.e. idolatry.
I've stated that I think we all have somethings wrong. But, there are some VERY clear things in scripture. To borrow from Alistair Begg, "the plain things are the main things and, the main things are the plain things."
I believe those clear things should be dogma and we should be dogmatic on them. On things that are somewhat vague I don't want to be dogmatic on them and I certainly don't want to hold someone to my dogma.
I'm a Protestant who has been married to a Catholic for nearly 40 years. There is a reason that I've not converted to Catholicism.
If you think dialogue is "whataboutism", I'm sorry.
I can only ask you a question.
After speaking (yelling) what you see as the truth, do you believe anyone will be converted by more yelling?
Plant and water all you can. But, keep in mind, it is God that gives the increase. I don't think more yelling is going to move Him any faster.
What is not a "main thing" about what I'm adressing? If you don't see the Roman Catholic church's authority having a hold over their people into believing a false gospel as well as towards heresy and idolatry as a "main thing" that has eternal consequences, then that leaves me to wonder.
I'm really not understanding the point of your "dialogue" - since there are crazy, unbiblical protestant churches out there..... DON'T call out the errors of the Roman Catholic church... in a thread about that topic?? Because that would be "yelling", right?
And remember, I WAS THE ONE simply asking a question. But somehow, when I do it, it's unproductive "yelling", but when you do it, it's "dialogue". Your perception here is unbalanced an unimpartial, and now I know why - you're married to a Catholic, so you're treating it with kid gloves as you're accustomed to, no doubt, in family gatherings. You might even be offended for their sake by what I'm saying. Understandable, but your bias and whataboutism isn't really doing anything to move the needle here. How does showing crazy protestants jumping on the pulpit show Roman Catholics their errors and get them to repent?
I'm not really here to convert people. If it somehow happens, then to God be all the glory. All I'm aiming to do, is to biblically, factually, historically, and logically argue for the truth, and to show others that they're position is NOT defendable in like manner. What they do with that is up to them. And yes, I think I've been successful at that. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to argue against anything I've said.
You can try your "kid glove" approach if that's what you think is best. But I think that people with deeply rooted beliefs like Roman Catholics must have their beliefs uprooted before any seed planted and watered will be able to grow.
I didn't say whether or not your point is a main thing or not. I stated my position and asked you to consider whether your yelling is beneficial.
You come across as someone that would rather win an argument than win a soul.
I'm a nobody with little education. It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
Another thing I'd like to add - and if you think I'm going over the line here, then tell me, but I think it's only fair that because you challenged me on whether what I'm doing is beneficial, I also get to challenge you in the same way:
How beneficial can YOUR method of changing hearts and minds and "winning souls" be, if you, ostensibly a Protestant, have been married to your spouse who is a Roman Catholic and has remained so for over 40 years??
I don't know.... maybe "yelling" is not too bad an idea?? Just sayin'.....
ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:DallasBear9902 said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:DallasBear9902 said:Oldbear83 said:
Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?
Just a tad arrogant, that.
Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).
Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.
The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.
Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".
It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.
Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.
I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.
As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary
Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.
At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….
Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.
Are you familiar with the rosary?
If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.
Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.
Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.
I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.
You have never prayed the Rosary? We are called to
Pray it daily which I do as well as the Divine Mercy Chaplet
Show me the teaching from Jesus or the apostles which instructs anyone to pray the rosary.
I'll wait
As expected…it's a choice you're allowed to make of course.
You said, "we are called to pray it daily".... so show me where that was spoken by Jesus or the apostles.
If you can't, then you need to correct yourself.
Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:DallasBear9902 said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:DallasBear9902 said:Oldbear83 said:
Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?
Just a tad arrogant, that.
Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).
Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.
The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.
Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".
It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.
Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.
I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.
As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary
Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.
At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….
Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.
Are you familiar with the rosary?
If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.
Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.
Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.
I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.
You have never prayed the Rosary? We are called to
Pray it daily which I do as well as the Divine Mercy Chaplet
Show me the teaching from Jesus or the apostles which instructs anyone to pray the rosary.
I'll wait
As expected…it's a choice you're allowed to make of course.
You said, "we are called to pray it daily".... so show me where that was spoken by Jesus or the apostles.
If you can't, then you need to correct yourself.
Yes we are. If you had studied youd know thats not whence it came. It is a devotional. Not required so dont worry, nothing extra you have to burden yourself doing. A way to meditatively contemplate the life of Jesus and his passion. Pope John Paul II added the luminous mysteries in the early 2000s as a further devotional. It originally was built on the 150 Psalms you may recognize from the Bible
You can look it up to learn more. A beautiful devotional and an amazing daily meditation on the life of Christ and what He did for us and Mary's significant role in our salvation.
4th and Inches said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:DallasBear9902 said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:DallasBear9902 said:Oldbear83 said:
Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?
Just a tad arrogant, that.
Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).
Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.
The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.
Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".
It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.
Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.
I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.
As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary
Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.
At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….
Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.
Are you familiar with the rosary?
If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.
Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.
Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.
I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.
You have never prayed the Rosary? We are called to
Pray it daily which I do as well as the Divine Mercy Chaplet
Show me the teaching from Jesus or the apostles which instructs anyone to pray the rosary.
I'll wait
The Sign of the Cross
In the name of the Father of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen
The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day, He rose again; He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. From there, He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
The Our Father
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name: Thy kingdom come: Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread: and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
The Hail Mary
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.(first half of this prayer is scripture from Luke)
The Glory be
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
Not much to complain about, i am sure there are other prayers that I am missing and maybe those are the offending ones (I am not catholic)
on two occasions I've told a joke that wasn't a good representation of a Christian where a person said " I didn't know yall talked like that." Both times I thanked the person for responding the way they did. It felt like my legs had been cut out from under me.Oldbear83 said:
LIB, MR. BEARS: " Nobody has ever come to me and said "I'm a Christian because of you."
A couple people have told me that in my life. Scares me, that, because it reminds me that I am responsible to God for those in my charge, including anyone who makes a decision about Christ because of my poor example.
LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:LIB,MR BEARS said:
Please explainDear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH
— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026
Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?
It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".
So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.
It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"
And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.
That's the way you see it.
I'm trying to have a dialogue you're, by your own admission are yelling at people.
Yes, yelling is often required to those who's hearing is dulled.
You have the "dialogue" you want. I just don't see the utility or even the relevance of your "whataboutism" regarding protestant follies here and there that have nothing to do with me or others, in a thread about Marian "veneration", i.e. idolatry.
I've stated that I think we all have somethings wrong. But, there are some VERY clear things in scripture. To borrow from Alistair Begg, "the plain things are the main things and, the main things are the plain things."
I believe those clear things should be dogma and we should be dogmatic on them. On things that are somewhat vague I don't want to be dogmatic on them and I certainly don't want to hold someone to my dogma.
I'm a Protestant who has been married to a Catholic for nearly 40 years. There is a reason that I've not converted to Catholicism.
If you think dialogue is "whataboutism", I'm sorry.
I can only ask you a question.
After speaking (yelling) what you see as the truth, do you believe anyone will be converted by more yelling?
Plant and water all you can. But, keep in mind, it is God that gives the increase. I don't think more yelling is going to move Him any faster.
What is not a "main thing" about what I'm adressing? If you don't see the Roman Catholic church's authority having a hold over their people into believing a false gospel as well as towards heresy and idolatry as a "main thing" that has eternal consequences, then that leaves me to wonder.
I'm really not understanding the point of your "dialogue" - since there are crazy, unbiblical protestant churches out there..... DON'T call out the errors of the Roman Catholic church... in a thread about that topic?? Because that would be "yelling", right?
And remember, I WAS THE ONE simply asking a question. But somehow, when I do it, it's unproductive "yelling", but when you do it, it's "dialogue". Your perception here is unbalanced an unimpartial, and now I know why - you're married to a Catholic, so you're treating it with kid gloves as you're accustomed to, no doubt, in family gatherings. You might even be offended for their sake by what I'm saying. Understandable, but your bias and whataboutism isn't really doing anything to move the needle here. How does showing crazy protestants jumping on the pulpit show Roman Catholics their errors and get them to repent?
I'm not really here to convert people. If it somehow happens, then to God be all the glory. All I'm aiming to do, is to biblically, factually, historically, and logically argue for the truth, and to show others that they're position is NOT defendable in like manner. What they do with that is up to them. And yes, I think I've been successful at that. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to argue against anything I've said.
You can try your "kid glove" approach if that's what you think is best. But I think that people with deeply rooted beliefs like Roman Catholics must have their beliefs uprooted before any seed planted and watered will be able to grow.
I didn't say whether or not your point is a main thing or not. I stated my position and asked you to consider whether your yelling is beneficial.
You come across as someone that would rather win an argument than win a soul.
I'm a nobody with little education. It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
I don't want to win arguments. I want the truth to win. What I've learned is that the more effective you are at doing that, those who you are arguing against ALWAYS go to ad hominem instead of arguing against the substance, trying to make it about their perceived personal failings of mine like you just did, in order to "soften the blow" for the sake of their psyche. Understandable, but it's just a defense mechanism, and again, it doesn't change any of the truth.
Thanks for offering your opinion. I'm sorry, I can't take it too serously, because you continue to call what I'm doing "yelling" when I literally did the same thing you did by asking a question. I understand your family situation predisposes you towards a certain bias, lack of objectivity, and sensitivity concerning the topic, which leads you to view my comments with distaste. But what you can't argue, is that what I'm saying is NOT true. And that's all I'm really aiming for. If you disagree, then feel free to argue against anything I've said.
I've not argued against what you've said but how you've said it. Water is great and needed for life. Receiving it through a fire hose…not so much.
I think in a dialogue the same points can be made and arguments built that incorporate the other persons own thoughts so they have a better understanding of the point being made.
LIB,MR BEARS said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:DallasBear9902 said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:DallasBear9902 said:Oldbear83 said:
Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?
Just a tad arrogant, that.
Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).
Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.
The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.
Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".
It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.
Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.
I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.
As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary
Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.
At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….
Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.
Are you familiar with the rosary?
If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.
Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.
Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.
I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.
You have never prayed the Rosary? We are called to
Pray it daily which I do as well as the Divine Mercy Chaplet
Show me the teaching from Jesus or the apostles which instructs anyone to pray the rosary.
I'll wait
As expected…it's a choice you're allowed to make of course.
You said, "we are called to pray it daily".... so show me where that was spoken by Jesus or the apostles.
If you can't, then you need to correct yourself.
Yes we are. If you had studied youd know thats not whence it came. It is a devotional. Not required so dont worry, nothing extra you have to burden yourself doing. A way to meditatively contemplate the life of Jesus and his passion. Pope John Paul II added the luminous mysteries in the early 2000s as a further devotional. It originally was built on the 150 Psalms you may recognize from the Bible
You can look it up to learn more. A beautiful devotional and an amazing daily meditation on the life of Christ and what He did for us and Mary's significant role in our salvation.
Has Paul played a significant role in our salvation?
we were told to pray daily(continually) and you mentioned the rosary which i assumed you had an issue with(others have mentioned they have issues with it)ShooterTX said:4th and Inches said:ShooterTX said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:DallasBear9902 said:Fre3dombear said:ShooterTX said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:DallasBear9902 said:Oldbear83 said:
Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?
Just a tad arrogant, that.
Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).
Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.
The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.
Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".
It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.
Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.
I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.
As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary
Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.
At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….
Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.
Are you familiar with the rosary?
If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.
Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.
Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.
I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.
You have never prayed the Rosary? We are called to
Pray it daily which I do as well as the Divine Mercy Chaplet
Show me the teaching from Jesus or the apostles which instructs anyone to pray the rosary.
I'll wait
The Sign of the Cross
In the name of the Father of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen
The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day, He rose again; He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. From there, He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
The Our Father
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name: Thy kingdom come: Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread: and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
The Hail Mary
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.(first half of this prayer is scripture from Luke)
The Glory be
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
Not much to complain about, i am sure there are other prayers that I am missing and maybe those are the offending ones (I am not catholic)
How is this a response?
I asked for an example of Jesus or the apostles giving instructions to pray the rosary daily.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:LIB,MR BEARS said:
Please explainDear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH
— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026
Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?
It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".
So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.
It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"
And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.
That's the way you see it.
I'm trying to have a dialogue you're, by your own admission are yelling at people.
Yes, yelling is often required to those who's hearing is dulled.
You have the "dialogue" you want. I just don't see the utility or even the relevance of your "whataboutism" regarding protestant follies here and there that have nothing to do with me or others, in a thread about Marian "veneration", i.e. idolatry.
I've stated that I think we all have somethings wrong. But, there are some VERY clear things in scripture. To borrow from Alistair Begg, "the plain things are the main things and, the main things are the plain things."
I believe those clear things should be dogma and we should be dogmatic on them. On things that are somewhat vague I don't want to be dogmatic on them and I certainly don't want to hold someone to my dogma.
I'm a Protestant who has been married to a Catholic for nearly 40 years. There is a reason that I've not converted to Catholicism.
If you think dialogue is "whataboutism", I'm sorry.
I can only ask you a question.
After speaking (yelling) what you see as the truth, do you believe anyone will be converted by more yelling?
Plant and water all you can. But, keep in mind, it is God that gives the increase. I don't think more yelling is going to move Him any faster.
What is not a "main thing" about what I'm adressing? If you don't see the Roman Catholic church's authority having a hold over their people into believing a false gospel as well as towards heresy and idolatry as a "main thing" that has eternal consequences, then that leaves me to wonder.
I'm really not understanding the point of your "dialogue" - since there are crazy, unbiblical protestant churches out there..... DON'T call out the errors of the Roman Catholic church... in a thread about that topic?? Because that would be "yelling", right?
And remember, I WAS THE ONE simply asking a question. But somehow, when I do it, it's unproductive "yelling", but when you do it, it's "dialogue". Your perception here is unbalanced an unimpartial, and now I know why - you're married to a Catholic, so you're treating it with kid gloves as you're accustomed to, no doubt, in family gatherings. You might even be offended for their sake by what I'm saying. Understandable, but your bias and whataboutism isn't really doing anything to move the needle here. How does showing crazy protestants jumping on the pulpit show Roman Catholics their errors and get them to repent?
I'm not really here to convert people. If it somehow happens, then to God be all the glory. All I'm aiming to do, is to biblically, factually, historically, and logically argue for the truth, and to show others that they're position is NOT defendable in like manner. What they do with that is up to them. And yes, I think I've been successful at that. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to argue against anything I've said.
You can try your "kid glove" approach if that's what you think is best. But I think that people with deeply rooted beliefs like Roman Catholics must have their beliefs uprooted before any seed planted and watered will be able to grow.
I didn't say whether or not your point is a main thing or not. I stated my position and asked you to consider whether your yelling is beneficial.
You come across as someone that would rather win an argument than win a soul.
I'm a nobody with little education. It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
I don't want to win arguments. I want the truth to win. What I've learned is that the more effective you are at doing that, those who you are arguing against ALWAYS go to ad hominem instead of arguing against the substance, trying to make it about their perceived personal failings of mine like you just did, in order to "soften the blow" for the sake of their psyche. Understandable, but it's just a defense mechanism, and again, it doesn't change any of the truth.
Thanks for offering your opinion. I'm sorry, I can't take it too serously, because you continue to call what I'm doing "yelling" when I literally did the same thing you did by asking a question. I understand your family situation predisposes you towards a certain bias, lack of objectivity, and sensitivity concerning the topic, which leads you to view my comments with distaste. But what you can't argue, is that what I'm saying is NOT true. And that's all I'm really aiming for. If you disagree, then feel free to argue against anything I've said.
I've not argued against what you've said but how you've said it. Water is great and needed for life. Receiving it through a fire hose…not so much.
I think in a dialogue the same points can be made and arguments built that incorporate the other persons own thoughts so they have a better understanding of the point being made.
And the same criticism can be made against you, when you reduced what I've been saying to mere "yelling" to a homeless person, "Hey, you're homeless!" Again, if you're so much better at this, why is your family still Roman Catholic?
And where exactly do you think my "tone" went astray? Point to it exactly. And where is your criticism of those who called me "Pharisee", "abusive", "cruel", "unChristian", and a "brick wall" for simply asking a question? No comment about their "tone". Kinda one sided here, aren't you?
And how is my asking a question not the same kind of "dialogue" that you say your question is sparking? I'm guessing that what you're really reacting to is the fact that the harsh, direct truth that's being said here directly affects those close to you, and you can't help but be defensive for their sake.
LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:LIB,MR BEARS said:
Please explainDear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH
— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026
Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?
It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".
So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.
It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"
And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.
That's the way you see it.
I'm trying to have a dialogue you're, by your own admission are yelling at people.
Yes, yelling is often required to those who's hearing is dulled.
You have the "dialogue" you want. I just don't see the utility or even the relevance of your "whataboutism" regarding protestant follies here and there that have nothing to do with me or others, in a thread about Marian "veneration", i.e. idolatry.
I've stated that I think we all have somethings wrong. But, there are some VERY clear things in scripture. To borrow from Alistair Begg, "the plain things are the main things and, the main things are the plain things."
I believe those clear things should be dogma and we should be dogmatic on them. On things that are somewhat vague I don't want to be dogmatic on them and I certainly don't want to hold someone to my dogma.
I'm a Protestant who has been married to a Catholic for nearly 40 years. There is a reason that I've not converted to Catholicism.
If you think dialogue is "whataboutism", I'm sorry.
I can only ask you a question.
After speaking (yelling) what you see as the truth, do you believe anyone will be converted by more yelling?
Plant and water all you can. But, keep in mind, it is God that gives the increase. I don't think more yelling is going to move Him any faster.
What is not a "main thing" about what I'm adressing? If you don't see the Roman Catholic church's authority having a hold over their people into believing a false gospel as well as towards heresy and idolatry as a "main thing" that has eternal consequences, then that leaves me to wonder.
I'm really not understanding the point of your "dialogue" - since there are crazy, unbiblical protestant churches out there..... DON'T call out the errors of the Roman Catholic church... in a thread about that topic?? Because that would be "yelling", right?
And remember, I WAS THE ONE simply asking a question. But somehow, when I do it, it's unproductive "yelling", but when you do it, it's "dialogue". Your perception here is unbalanced an unimpartial, and now I know why - you're married to a Catholic, so you're treating it with kid gloves as you're accustomed to, no doubt, in family gatherings. You might even be offended for their sake by what I'm saying. Understandable, but your bias and whataboutism isn't really doing anything to move the needle here. How does showing crazy protestants jumping on the pulpit show Roman Catholics their errors and get them to repent?
I'm not really here to convert people. If it somehow happens, then to God be all the glory. All I'm aiming to do, is to biblically, factually, historically, and logically argue for the truth, and to show others that they're position is NOT defendable in like manner. What they do with that is up to them. And yes, I think I've been successful at that. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to argue against anything I've said.
You can try your "kid glove" approach if that's what you think is best. But I think that people with deeply rooted beliefs like Roman Catholics must have their beliefs uprooted before any seed planted and watered will be able to grow.
I didn't say whether or not your point is a main thing or not. I stated my position and asked you to consider whether your yelling is beneficial.
You come across as someone that would rather win an argument than win a soul.
I'm a nobody with little education. It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
I don't want to win arguments. I want the truth to win. What I've learned is that the more effective you are at doing that, those who you are arguing against ALWAYS go to ad hominem instead of arguing against the substance, trying to make it about their perceived personal failings of mine like you just did, in order to "soften the blow" for the sake of their psyche. Understandable, but it's just a defense mechanism, and again, it doesn't change any of the truth.
Thanks for offering your opinion. I'm sorry, I can't take it too serously, because you continue to call what I'm doing "yelling" when I literally did the same thing you did by asking a question. I understand your family situation predisposes you towards a certain bias, lack of objectivity, and sensitivity concerning the topic, which leads you to view my comments with distaste. But what you can't argue, is that what I'm saying is NOT true. And that's all I'm really aiming for. If you disagree, then feel free to argue against anything I've said.
I've not argued against what you've said but how you've said it. Water is great and needed for life. Receiving it through a fire hose…not so much.
I think in a dialogue the same points can be made and arguments built that incorporate the other persons own thoughts so they have a better understanding of the point being made.
And the same criticism can be made against you, when you reduced what I've been saying to mere "yelling" to a homeless person, "Hey, you're homeless!" Again, if you're so much better at this, why is your family still Roman Catholic?
And where exactly do you think my "tone" went astray? Point to it exactly. And where is your criticism of those who called me "Pharisee", "abusive", "cruel", "unChristian", and a "brick wall" for simply asking a question? No comment about their "tone". Kinda one sided here, aren't you?
And how is my asking a question not the same kind of "dialogue" that you say your question is sparking? I'm guessing that what you're really reacting to is the fact that the harsh, direct truth that's being said here directly affects those close to you, and you can't help but be defensive for their sake.
I'd be foolish to say that my faith and my approach to sharing my faith has nothing to do with my family, my work environment, my church, my background and more. I think you'd also be foolish to say the same thing about your approach to sharing your faith.
You do you , I'll do me. We're both working to the same goal, bringing others to Christ
LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:LIB,MR BEARS said:
Please explainDear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH
— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026
Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?
It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".
So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.
It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"
And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.
That's the way you see it.
I'm trying to have a dialogue you're, by your own admission are yelling at people.
Yes, yelling is often required to those who's hearing is dulled.
You have the "dialogue" you want. I just don't see the utility or even the relevance of your "whataboutism" regarding protestant follies here and there that have nothing to do with me or others, in a thread about Marian "veneration", i.e. idolatry.
I've stated that I think we all have somethings wrong. But, there are some VERY clear things in scripture. To borrow from Alistair Begg, "the plain things are the main things and, the main things are the plain things."
I believe those clear things should be dogma and we should be dogmatic on them. On things that are somewhat vague I don't want to be dogmatic on them and I certainly don't want to hold someone to my dogma.
I'm a Protestant who has been married to a Catholic for nearly 40 years. There is a reason that I've not converted to Catholicism.
If you think dialogue is "whataboutism", I'm sorry.
I can only ask you a question.
After speaking (yelling) what you see as the truth, do you believe anyone will be converted by more yelling?
Plant and water all you can. But, keep in mind, it is God that gives the increase. I don't think more yelling is going to move Him any faster.
What is not a "main thing" about what I'm adressing? If you don't see the Roman Catholic church's authority having a hold over their people into believing a false gospel as well as towards heresy and idolatry as a "main thing" that has eternal consequences, then that leaves me to wonder.
I'm really not understanding the point of your "dialogue" - since there are crazy, unbiblical protestant churches out there..... DON'T call out the errors of the Roman Catholic church... in a thread about that topic?? Because that would be "yelling", right?
And remember, I WAS THE ONE simply asking a question. But somehow, when I do it, it's unproductive "yelling", but when you do it, it's "dialogue". Your perception here is unbalanced an unimpartial, and now I know why - you're married to a Catholic, so you're treating it with kid gloves as you're accustomed to, no doubt, in family gatherings. You might even be offended for their sake by what I'm saying. Understandable, but your bias and whataboutism isn't really doing anything to move the needle here. How does showing crazy protestants jumping on the pulpit show Roman Catholics their errors and get them to repent?
I'm not really here to convert people. If it somehow happens, then to God be all the glory. All I'm aiming to do, is to biblically, factually, historically, and logically argue for the truth, and to show others that they're position is NOT defendable in like manner. What they do with that is up to them. And yes, I think I've been successful at that. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to argue against anything I've said.
You can try your "kid glove" approach if that's what you think is best. But I think that people with deeply rooted beliefs like Roman Catholics must have their beliefs uprooted before any seed planted and watered will be able to grow.
I didn't say whether or not your point is a main thing or not. I stated my position and asked you to consider whether your yelling is beneficial.
You come across as someone that would rather win an argument than win a soul.
I'm a nobody with little education. It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
I don't want to win arguments. I want the truth to win. What I've learned is that the more effective you are at doing that, those who you are arguing against ALWAYS go to ad hominem instead of arguing against the substance, trying to make it about their perceived personal failings of mine like you just did, in order to "soften the blow" for the sake of their psyche. Understandable, but it's just a defense mechanism, and again, it doesn't change any of the truth.
Thanks for offering your opinion. I'm sorry, I can't take it too serously, because you continue to call what I'm doing "yelling" when I literally did the same thing you did by asking a question. I understand your family situation predisposes you towards a certain bias, lack of objectivity, and sensitivity concerning the topic, which leads you to view my comments with distaste. But what you can't argue, is that what I'm saying is NOT true. And that's all I'm really aiming for. If you disagree, then feel free to argue against anything I've said.
I've not argued against what you've said but how you've said it. Water is great and needed for life. Receiving it through a fire hose…not so much.
I think in a dialogue the same points can be made and arguments built that incorporate the other persons own thoughts so they have a better understanding of the point being made.
And the same criticism can be made against you, when you reduced what I've been saying to mere "yelling" to a homeless person, "Hey, you're homeless!" Again, if you're so much better at this, why is your family still Roman Catholic?
And where exactly do you think my "tone" went astray? Point to it exactly. And where is your criticism of those who called me "Pharisee", "abusive", "cruel", "unChristian", and a "brick wall" for simply asking a question? No comment about their "tone". Kinda one sided here, aren't you?
And how is my asking a question not the same kind of "dialogue" that you say your question is sparking? I'm guessing that what you're really reacting to is the fact that the harsh, direct truth that's being said here directly affects those close to you, and you can't help but be defensive for their sake.
I'd be foolish to say that my faith and my approach to sharing my faith has nothing to do with my family, my work environment, my church, my background and more. I think you'd also be foolish to say the same thing about your approach to sharing your faith.
You do you , I'll do me. We're both working to the same goal, bringing others to Christ
The protestant objection to icon veneration and saint intercession basically assumes a kind of divine jealousy: that God must act alone or the act becomes idolatrous. But Scripture tells a different story entirely.Fre3dombear said:Doc Holliday said:
In Acts they took cloths from Paul's body to drive out devils and healed people.
The bones of Elijah raised the dead.
These relics were deified by the uncreated energies of God.
When the Son of God assumed human nature in the incarnation, he deified that nature with his uncreated energy. That same uncreated energy is what deifies the saints. Paul says its the power of God that worketh in me. Because Christ became human, matter is affirmed as good. Veneration passes through the image to the prototype (the saint).
We don't worship the bone or the cloth as a god (latria), but we honor the prototype (the person/God) that the object reflects (dulia).
A person is not a soul temporarily inhabiting a body but a psychosomatic unity. The body that prayed, fasted, received the Eucharist, and was indwelt by the Spirit is genuinely that person's body. That's why the bone of Elisha isn't just a tool God happened to use…it's the body of a man whose whole person was being deified. Icon/relic veneration isn't arbitrary materialism. It follows necessarily from Incarnation theology.
They ignore all this as all they care about in their faith is John 3:16. Why even be baptized? It's not in John 3:16. Oh and thief on the cross.
The way is easy and the yolk is very very light almost non existent as a Protestant Christian. I get the appeal these last few hundred years. Oh and women preachers.
Doc Holliday said:Fre3dombear said:Doc Holliday said:
In Acts they took cloths from Paul's body to drive out devils and healed people.
The bones of Elijah raised the dead.
These relics were deified by the uncreated energies of God.
When the Son of God assumed human nature in the incarnation, he deified that nature with his uncreated energy. That same uncreated energy is what deifies the saints. Paul says its the power of God that worketh in me. Because Christ became human, matter is affirmed as good. Veneration passes through the image to the prototype (the saint).
We don't worship the bone or the cloth as a god (latria), but we honor the prototype (the person/God) that the object reflects (dulia).
A person is not a soul temporarily inhabiting a body but a psychosomatic unity. The body that prayed, fasted, received the Eucharist, and was indwelt by the Spirit is genuinely that person's body. That's why the bone of Elisha isn't just a tool God happened to use…it's the body of a man whose whole person was being deified. Icon/relic veneration isn't arbitrary materialism. It follows necessarily from Incarnation theology.
They ignore all this as all they care about in their faith is John 3:16. Why even be baptized? It's not in John 3:16. Oh and thief on the cross.
The way is easy and the yolk is very very light almost non existent as a Protestant Christian. I get the appeal these last few hundred years. Oh and women preachers.
The protestant objection to icon veneration and saint intercession basically assumes a kind of divine jealousy: that God must act alone or the act becomes idolatrous. But Scripture tells a different story entirely.
Psalm 82 depicts God presiding over a divine council, pronouncing judgment among the "gods" (elohim). Job 1-2 shows the sons of God presenting themselves before Him. Isaiah 6 has seraphim mediating the theophany. 1 Kings 22 shows God asking the heavenly host how to accomplish His purposes.
Ex. Amos prays twice, and twice God "relents"
There's obviously a pattern and we're included. God condescends to include others in His governance not because He needs them, but because He wills to share His life and authority.
The "great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 flows directly out of the Hebrews 11 roll call of the faithful. It's not like they're memorialized dead… they are witnesses, present and attentive.
And we can look to revelations to show it doesn't stop at the dead too. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering bowls of incense which are explicitly identified as "the prayers of the saints." Revelation 8:3-4 shows an angel at the altar offering the prayers of the saints before God.
The Protestant worry is that saints usurp Christ's unique mediation (1 Tim. 2:5). But the Orthodox response is that saints mediate in Christ, just as a pastor praying for his congregation mediates in Christ without competing with Him.
Can you name a single ante-Nicene father who condemned prayer to the saints as a category? Because I can name several who practiced it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Doc Holliday said:Fre3dombear said:Doc Holliday said:
In Acts they took cloths from Paul's body to drive out devils and healed people.
The bones of Elijah raised the dead.
These relics were deified by the uncreated energies of God.
When the Son of God assumed human nature in the incarnation, he deified that nature with his uncreated energy. That same uncreated energy is what deifies the saints. Paul says its the power of God that worketh in me. Because Christ became human, matter is affirmed as good. Veneration passes through the image to the prototype (the saint).
We don't worship the bone or the cloth as a god (latria), but we honor the prototype (the person/God) that the object reflects (dulia).
A person is not a soul temporarily inhabiting a body but a psychosomatic unity. The body that prayed, fasted, received the Eucharist, and was indwelt by the Spirit is genuinely that person's body. That's why the bone of Elisha isn't just a tool God happened to use…it's the body of a man whose whole person was being deified. Icon/relic veneration isn't arbitrary materialism. It follows necessarily from Incarnation theology.
They ignore all this as all they care about in their faith is John 3:16. Why even be baptized? It's not in John 3:16. Oh and thief on the cross.
The way is easy and the yolk is very very light almost non existent as a Protestant Christian. I get the appeal these last few hundred years. Oh and women preachers.
The protestant objection to icon veneration and saint intercession basically assumes a kind of divine jealousy: that God must act alone or the act becomes idolatrous. But Scripture tells a different story entirely.
Psalm 82 depicts God presiding over a divine council, pronouncing judgment among the "gods" (elohim). Job 1-2 shows the sons of God presenting themselves before Him. Isaiah 6 has seraphim mediating the theophany. 1 Kings 22 shows God asking the heavenly host how to accomplish His purposes.
Ex. Amos prays twice, and twice God "relents"
There's obviously a pattern and we're included. God condescends to include others in His governance not because He needs them, but because He wills to share His life and authority.
The "great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 flows directly out of the Hebrews 11 roll call of the faithful. It's not like they're memorialized dead… they are witnesses, present and attentive.
And we can look to revelations to show it doesn't stop at the dead too. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering bowls of incense which are explicitly identified as "the prayers of the saints." Revelation 8:3-4 shows an angel at the altar offering the prayers of the saints before God.
The Protestant worry is that saints usurp Christ's unique mediation (1 Tim. 2:5). But the Orthodox response is that saints mediate in Christ, just as a pastor praying for his congregation mediates in Christ without competing with Him.
You're trying so hard to justify something that is nowhere in Scripture and was universally denounced by the early church. You're building a belief system completely off of non sequiturs.
Doc Holliday said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Doc Holliday said:Fre3dombear said:Doc Holliday said:
In Acts they took cloths from Paul's body to drive out devils and healed people.
The bones of Elijah raised the dead.
These relics were deified by the uncreated energies of God.
When the Son of God assumed human nature in the incarnation, he deified that nature with his uncreated energy. That same uncreated energy is what deifies the saints. Paul says its the power of God that worketh in me. Because Christ became human, matter is affirmed as good. Veneration passes through the image to the prototype (the saint).
We don't worship the bone or the cloth as a god (latria), but we honor the prototype (the person/God) that the object reflects (dulia).
A person is not a soul temporarily inhabiting a body but a psychosomatic unity. The body that prayed, fasted, received the Eucharist, and was indwelt by the Spirit is genuinely that person's body. That's why the bone of Elisha isn't just a tool God happened to use…it's the body of a man whose whole person was being deified. Icon/relic veneration isn't arbitrary materialism. It follows necessarily from Incarnation theology.
They ignore all this as all they care about in their faith is John 3:16. Why even be baptized? It's not in John 3:16. Oh and thief on the cross.
The way is easy and the yolk is very very light almost non existent as a Protestant Christian. I get the appeal these last few hundred years. Oh and women preachers.
The protestant objection to icon veneration and saint intercession basically assumes a kind of divine jealousy: that God must act alone or the act becomes idolatrous. But Scripture tells a different story entirely.
Psalm 82 depicts God presiding over a divine council, pronouncing judgment among the "gods" (elohim). Job 1-2 shows the sons of God presenting themselves before Him. Isaiah 6 has seraphim mediating the theophany. 1 Kings 22 shows God asking the heavenly host how to accomplish His purposes.
Ex. Amos prays twice, and twice God "relents"
There's obviously a pattern and we're included. God condescends to include others in His governance not because He needs them, but because He wills to share His life and authority.
The "great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 flows directly out of the Hebrews 11 roll call of the faithful. It's not like they're memorialized dead… they are witnesses, present and attentive.
And we can look to revelations to show it doesn't stop at the dead too. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering bowls of incense which are explicitly identified as "the prayers of the saints." Revelation 8:3-4 shows an angel at the altar offering the prayers of the saints before God.
The Protestant worry is that saints usurp Christ's unique mediation (1 Tim. 2:5). But the Orthodox response is that saints mediate in Christ, just as a pastor praying for his congregation mediates in Christ without competing with Him.
You're trying so hard to justify something that is nowhere in Scripture and was universally denounced by the early church. You're building a belief system completely off of non sequiturs.
Can you name a single ante-Nicene father who condemned prayer to the saints as a category? Because I can name several who practiced it.
The burden is on you to explain why a principle Scripture establishes for the living, intercessory prayer, suddenly terminates at death, when Scripture never says it does and the early church never taught that it did.
Origen, On Prayer, 11.2 he explicitly states that the departed saints pray on behalf of the living. This is Origen. 185-253 AD. Ante-Nicene.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Doc Holliday said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Doc Holliday said:Fre3dombear said:Doc Holliday said:
In Acts they took cloths from Paul's body to drive out devils and healed people.
The bones of Elijah raised the dead.
These relics were deified by the uncreated energies of God.
When the Son of God assumed human nature in the incarnation, he deified that nature with his uncreated energy. That same uncreated energy is what deifies the saints. Paul says its the power of God that worketh in me. Because Christ became human, matter is affirmed as good. Veneration passes through the image to the prototype (the saint).
We don't worship the bone or the cloth as a god (latria), but we honor the prototype (the person/God) that the object reflects (dulia).
A person is not a soul temporarily inhabiting a body but a psychosomatic unity. The body that prayed, fasted, received the Eucharist, and was indwelt by the Spirit is genuinely that person's body. That's why the bone of Elisha isn't just a tool God happened to use…it's the body of a man whose whole person was being deified. Icon/relic veneration isn't arbitrary materialism. It follows necessarily from Incarnation theology.
They ignore all this as all they care about in their faith is John 3:16. Why even be baptized? It's not in John 3:16. Oh and thief on the cross.
The way is easy and the yolk is very very light almost non existent as a Protestant Christian. I get the appeal these last few hundred years. Oh and women preachers.
The protestant objection to icon veneration and saint intercession basically assumes a kind of divine jealousy: that God must act alone or the act becomes idolatrous. But Scripture tells a different story entirely.
Psalm 82 depicts God presiding over a divine council, pronouncing judgment among the "gods" (elohim). Job 1-2 shows the sons of God presenting themselves before Him. Isaiah 6 has seraphim mediating the theophany. 1 Kings 22 shows God asking the heavenly host how to accomplish His purposes.
Ex. Amos prays twice, and twice God "relents"
There's obviously a pattern and we're included. God condescends to include others in His governance not because He needs them, but because He wills to share His life and authority.
The "great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 flows directly out of the Hebrews 11 roll call of the faithful. It's not like they're memorialized dead… they are witnesses, present and attentive.
And we can look to revelations to show it doesn't stop at the dead too. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering bowls of incense which are explicitly identified as "the prayers of the saints." Revelation 8:3-4 shows an angel at the altar offering the prayers of the saints before God.
The Protestant worry is that saints usurp Christ's unique mediation (1 Tim. 2:5). But the Orthodox response is that saints mediate in Christ, just as a pastor praying for his congregation mediates in Christ without competing with Him.
You're trying so hard to justify something that is nowhere in Scripture and was universally denounced by the early church. You're building a belief system completely off of non sequiturs.
Can you name a single ante-Nicene father who condemned prayer to the saints as a category? Because I can name several who practiced it.
The burden is on you to explain why a principle Scripture establishes for the living, intercessory prayer, suddenly terminates at death, when Scripture never says it does and the early church never taught that it did.
Citation of ante-Nicene father teaching praying to saints?
Praying to the saints and icon veneration are NOWHERE in Scripture. For heaven's sake, you aren't given ANY indication that departed Christians have the ability to receive prayers anywhere in Scripture. You're concluding this with faulty reasoning, i.e. non sequiturs.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:LIB,MR BEARS said:
Please explainDear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH
— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026
Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?
It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".
So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.
It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"
And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.
That's the way you see it.
I'm trying to have a dialogue you're, by your own admission are yelling at people.
Yes, yelling is often required to those who's hearing is dulled.
You have the "dialogue" you want. I just don't see the utility or even the relevance of your "whataboutism" regarding protestant follies here and there that have nothing to do with me or others, in a thread about Marian "veneration", i.e. idolatry.
I've stated that I think we all have somethings wrong. But, there are some VERY clear things in scripture. To borrow from Alistair Begg, "the plain things are the main things and, the main things are the plain things."
I believe those clear things should be dogma and we should be dogmatic on them. On things that are somewhat vague I don't want to be dogmatic on them and I certainly don't want to hold someone to my dogma.
I'm a Protestant who has been married to a Catholic for nearly 40 years. There is a reason that I've not converted to Catholicism.
If you think dialogue is "whataboutism", I'm sorry.
I can only ask you a question.
After speaking (yelling) what you see as the truth, do you believe anyone will be converted by more yelling?
Plant and water all you can. But, keep in mind, it is God that gives the increase. I don't think more yelling is going to move Him any faster.
What is not a "main thing" about what I'm adressing? If you don't see the Roman Catholic church's authority having a hold over their people into believing a false gospel as well as towards heresy and idolatry as a "main thing" that has eternal consequences, then that leaves me to wonder.
I'm really not understanding the point of your "dialogue" - since there are crazy, unbiblical protestant churches out there..... DON'T call out the errors of the Roman Catholic church... in a thread about that topic?? Because that would be "yelling", right?
And remember, I WAS THE ONE simply asking a question. But somehow, when I do it, it's unproductive "yelling", but when you do it, it's "dialogue". Your perception here is unbalanced an unimpartial, and now I know why - you're married to a Catholic, so you're treating it with kid gloves as you're accustomed to, no doubt, in family gatherings. You might even be offended for their sake by what I'm saying. Understandable, but your bias and whataboutism isn't really doing anything to move the needle here. How does showing crazy protestants jumping on the pulpit show Roman Catholics their errors and get them to repent?
I'm not really here to convert people. If it somehow happens, then to God be all the glory. All I'm aiming to do, is to biblically, factually, historically, and logically argue for the truth, and to show others that they're position is NOT defendable in like manner. What they do with that is up to them. And yes, I think I've been successful at that. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to argue against anything I've said.
You can try your "kid glove" approach if that's what you think is best. But I think that people with deeply rooted beliefs like Roman Catholics must have their beliefs uprooted before any seed planted and watered will be able to grow.
I didn't say whether or not your point is a main thing or not. I stated my position and asked you to consider whether your yelling is beneficial.
You come across as someone that would rather win an argument than win a soul.
I'm a nobody with little education. It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
I don't want to win arguments. I want the truth to win. What I've learned is that the more effective you are at doing that, those who you are arguing against ALWAYS go to ad hominem instead of arguing against the substance, trying to make it about their perceived personal failings of mine like you just did, in order to "soften the blow" for the sake of their psyche. Understandable, but it's just a defense mechanism, and again, it doesn't change any of the truth.
Thanks for offering your opinion. I'm sorry, I can't take it too serously, because you continue to call what I'm doing "yelling" when I literally did the same thing you did by asking a question. I understand your family situation predisposes you towards a certain bias, lack of objectivity, and sensitivity concerning the topic, which leads you to view my comments with distaste. But what you can't argue, is that what I'm saying is NOT true. And that's all I'm really aiming for. If you disagree, then feel free to argue against anything I've said.
I've not argued against what you've said but how you've said it. Water is great and needed for life. Receiving it through a fire hose…not so much.
I think in a dialogue the same points can be made and arguments built that incorporate the other persons own thoughts so they have a better understanding of the point being made.
And the same criticism can be made against you, when you reduced what I've been saying to mere "yelling" to a homeless person, "Hey, you're homeless!" Again, if you're so much better at this, why is your family still Roman Catholic?
And where exactly do you think my "tone" went astray? Point to it exactly. And where is your criticism of those who called me "Pharisee", "abusive", "cruel", "unChristian", and a "brick wall" for simply asking a question? No comment about their "tone". Kinda one sided here, aren't you?
And how is my asking a question not the same kind of "dialogue" that you say your question is sparking? I'm guessing that what you're really reacting to is the fact that the harsh, direct truth that's being said here directly affects those close to you, and you can't help but be defensive for their sake.
I'd be foolish to say that my faith and my approach to sharing my faith has nothing to do with my family, my work environment, my church, my background and more. I think you'd also be foolish to say the same thing about your approach to sharing your faith.
You do you , I'll do me. We're both working to the same goal, bringing others to Christ
I'd say that having no affect on your own family, especially one's spouse over decades, should humble someone to where maybe they feel they're not in any position to question how "beneficial" other people's dialogue is towards "winning souls".
I've not bothered to read the details of it.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:LIB,MR BEARS said:
Please explainDear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH
— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026
Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?
It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".
So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.
It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"
And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.
That's the way you see it.
I'm trying to have a dialogue you're, by your own admission are yelling at people.
Yes, yelling is often required to those who's hearing is dulled.
You have the "dialogue" you want. I just don't see the utility or even the relevance of your "whataboutism" regarding protestant follies here and there that have nothing to do with me or others, in a thread about Marian "veneration", i.e. idolatry.
I've stated that I think we all have somethings wrong. But, there are some VERY clear things in scripture. To borrow from Alistair Begg, "the plain things are the main things and, the main things are the plain things."
I believe those clear things should be dogma and we should be dogmatic on them. On things that are somewhat vague I don't want to be dogmatic on them and I certainly don't want to hold someone to my dogma.
I'm a Protestant who has been married to a Catholic for nearly 40 years. There is a reason that I've not converted to Catholicism.
If you think dialogue is "whataboutism", I'm sorry.
I can only ask you a question.
After speaking (yelling) what you see as the truth, do you believe anyone will be converted by more yelling?
Plant and water all you can. But, keep in mind, it is God that gives the increase. I don't think more yelling is going to move Him any faster.
What is not a "main thing" about what I'm adressing? If you don't see the Roman Catholic church's authority having a hold over their people into believing a false gospel as well as towards heresy and idolatry as a "main thing" that has eternal consequences, then that leaves me to wonder.
I'm really not understanding the point of your "dialogue" - since there are crazy, unbiblical protestant churches out there..... DON'T call out the errors of the Roman Catholic church... in a thread about that topic?? Because that would be "yelling", right?
And remember, I WAS THE ONE simply asking a question. But somehow, when I do it, it's unproductive "yelling", but when you do it, it's "dialogue". Your perception here is unbalanced an unimpartial, and now I know why - you're married to a Catholic, so you're treating it with kid gloves as you're accustomed to, no doubt, in family gatherings. You might even be offended for their sake by what I'm saying. Understandable, but your bias and whataboutism isn't really doing anything to move the needle here. How does showing crazy protestants jumping on the pulpit show Roman Catholics their errors and get them to repent?
I'm not really here to convert people. If it somehow happens, then to God be all the glory. All I'm aiming to do, is to biblically, factually, historically, and logically argue for the truth, and to show others that they're position is NOT defendable in like manner. What they do with that is up to them. And yes, I think I've been successful at that. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to argue against anything I've said.
You can try your "kid glove" approach if that's what you think is best. But I think that people with deeply rooted beliefs like Roman Catholics must have their beliefs uprooted before any seed planted and watered will be able to grow.
I didn't say whether or not your point is a main thing or not. I stated my position and asked you to consider whether your yelling is beneficial.
You come across as someone that would rather win an argument than win a soul.
I'm a nobody with little education. It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
I don't want to win arguments. I want the truth to win. What I've learned is that the more effective you are at doing that, those who you are arguing against ALWAYS go to ad hominem instead of arguing against the substance, trying to make it about their perceived personal failings of mine like you just did, in order to "soften the blow" for the sake of their psyche. Understandable, but it's just a defense mechanism, and again, it doesn't change any of the truth.
Thanks for offering your opinion. I'm sorry, I can't take it too serously, because you continue to call what I'm doing "yelling" when I literally did the same thing you did by asking a question. I understand your family situation predisposes you towards a certain bias, lack of objectivity, and sensitivity concerning the topic, which leads you to view my comments with distaste. But what you can't argue, is that what I'm saying is NOT true. And that's all I'm really aiming for. If you disagree, then feel free to argue against anything I've said.
I've not argued against what you've said but how you've said it. Water is great and needed for life. Receiving it through a fire hose…not so much.
I think in a dialogue the same points can be made and arguments built that incorporate the other persons own thoughts so they have a better understanding of the point being made.
And the same criticism can be made against you, when you reduced what I've been saying to mere "yelling" to a homeless person, "Hey, you're homeless!" Again, if you're so much better at this, why is your family still Roman Catholic?
And where exactly do you think my "tone" went astray? Point to it exactly. And where is your criticism of those who called me "Pharisee", "abusive", "cruel", "unChristian", and a "brick wall" for simply asking a question? No comment about their "tone". Kinda one sided here, aren't you?
And how is my asking a question not the same kind of "dialogue" that you say your question is sparking? I'm guessing that what you're really reacting to is the fact that the harsh, direct truth that's being said here directly affects those close to you, and you can't help but be defensive for their sake.
I'd be foolish to say that my faith and my approach to sharing my faith has nothing to do with my family, my work environment, my church, my background and more. I think you'd also be foolish to say the same thing about your approach to sharing your faith.
You do you , I'll do me. We're both working to the same goal, bringing others to Christ
By the way - what is your answer to my question? Are those messages from the marian apparitions from God, or no?
