Doc Holliday said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

You understand that. I understand that. Protestant Christians say it is heresy. IWII

---

The emotional intensity is disproportionate to the actual theological stakes being discussed here. There's a real visceral hatred toward Catholicism and Orthodoxy. They're pretty much making the case that there's no possible way we love Christ because they think we worship Mary. It's so childish. It's not even theological or that deep as a discussion.

---

The case I've been making, and I fully stand firm in it, is that IF you don't see the problem with all that I've talked about regarding Roman Catholicism's and Orthodox's treatment of Mary, then NO, you do NOT love Jesus. You simply can NOT be loving Jesus and say or condone "Mary is THE PROPITIATION, THE ACCEPTABLE SACRIFICE, the SALVATION OF MY SOUL" at the same time and be okay with it. I just don't see how anyone who is actually a Christian can even remotely think this is controversial for me to say. What ON EARTH is wrong with you guys? How is it not plainly true as the noonday sun that this is heresy and idolatry??

IF you truly don't see any problem with that, then can you at least somehow, some way, conjure up SOME IDEA, ANY IDEA why some might consider you a "pagan devil"???

historian said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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historian said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

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What religion worships Mary?

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Hopefully no one. But anyone who prays to her is engaging in an act of worship.

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Asking Mary mother of God to pray for us is not worship to anyone but a Protestant Christian

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You missed the point. There is no reason to pray to anyone except God Himself. Prayer is a former of worship to whom it is directed. And it's not the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

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Then why even waste the time asking a friend to also
Pray for you? You could have used those milliseconds just talking directly to God? See how this works by your own logic?

It's the Protestant Christians burden to prove their circular illogical belief.

historian said:

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Salvation has always been about faith in God. Long before Christ's ministry and before the Exodus God had relationships with various men and women who believed in Him. It was always their faith. Hebrews summarizes it very well with numerous examples. Abraham:

"And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness." Genesis 15:6

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No doubt

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

You understand that. I understand that. Protestant Christians say it is heresy. IWII

---

The emotional intensity is disproportionate to the actual theological stakes being discussed here. There's a real visceral hatred toward Catholicism and Orthodoxy. They're pretty much making the case that there's no possible way we love Christ because they think we worship Mary. It's so childish. It's not even theological or that deep as a discussion.

---

IF you truly don't see any problem with that, then can you at least somehow, some way, conjure up SOME IDEA, ANY IDEA why some might consider you a "pagan devil"???

---

Yes, we all understand why you think that.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

You understand that. I understand that. Protestant Christians say it is heresy. IWII

---

The emotional intensity is disproportionate to the actual theological stakes being discussed here. There's a real visceral hatred toward Catholicism and Orthodoxy. They're pretty much making the case that there's no possible way we love Christ because they think we worship Mary. It's so childish. It's not even theological or that deep as a discussion.

---

IF you truly don't see any problem with that, then can you at least somehow, some way, conjure up SOME IDEA, ANY IDEA why some might consider you a "pagan devil"???

---

Yes, we all understand why you think that.

---

Never called anyone a "pagan devil". So how many strikes is that for you?

But I'm sure some do. And I'm glad you understand why they would. It might just mean there's a chance for you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

You understand that. I understand that. Protestant Christians say it is heresy. IWII

---

The emotional intensity is disproportionate to the actual theological stakes being discussed here. There's a real visceral hatred toward Catholicism and Orthodoxy. They're pretty much making the case that there's no possible way we love Christ because they think we worship Mary. It's so childish. It's not even theological or that deep as a discussion.

---

IF you truly don't see any problem with that, then can you at least somehow, some way, conjure up SOME IDEA, ANY IDEA why some might consider you a "pagan devil"???

---

Yes, we all understand why you think that.

---

Never called anyone a "pagan devil". So how many strikes is that for you?

But I'm sure some do. And I'm glad you understand why they would. It might just mean there's a chance for you.

---

That's good. I hope at some point you will understand Catholic beliefs and we'll be able to reach a genuine disagreement.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

You understand that. I understand that. Protestant Christians say it is heresy. IWII

---

The emotional intensity is disproportionate to the actual theological stakes being discussed here. There's a real visceral hatred toward Catholicism and Orthodoxy. They're pretty much making the case that there's no possible way we love Christ because they think we worship Mary. It's so childish. It's not even theological or that deep as a discussion.

---

IF you truly don't see any problem with that, then can you at least somehow, some way, conjure up SOME IDEA, ANY IDEA why some might consider you a "pagan devil"???

---

Yes, we all understand why you think that.

---

Never called anyone a "pagan devil". So how many strikes is that for you?

But I'm sure some do. And I'm glad you understand why they would. It might just mean there's a chance for you.

---

That's good. I hope at some point you will understand Catholic beliefs and we'll be able to reach a genuine disagreement.

---

Hey, maybe Catholics will stop all the double talk so that we can all understand them! Even you Catholics!

Fre3dombear said:

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historian said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

---

Hopefully no one. But anyone who prays to her is engaging in an act of worship.

---

Asking Mary mother of God to pray for us is not worship to anyone but a Protestant Christian

---

You missed the point. There is no reason to pray to anyone except God Himself. Prayer is a former of worship to whom it is directed. And it's not the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

---

Then why even waste the time asking a friend to also
Pray for you? You could have used those milliseconds just talking directly to God? See how this works by your own logic?

It's the Protestant Christians burden to prove their circular illogical belief.

---

matthew 18:19 is the reason why you ask a fellow Christian to pray

19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

It specifically says on Earth, excluding all those in Heaven except those the prayer is to.. the Father in the name of Jesus

Doc Holliday said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

Bow down TOWARD the temple, not TO the temple, because that's where God dwelled in that time. He is no longer there as was explained earlier. We don't need to offer God anything, such as worship, prayer, sacrifice, "through" any physical object or representation, but only through Jesus, spiritually, in his name.

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You're making a good case for Gnosticism.

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More absurdity.

historian said:

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There is a difference between asking a Christian to pray for you and expecting someone who died 2,000 years ago to pray for you, or pray directly to them.

In fact, when Christ taught us to pray (Lord's Prayer), he prayed directly to "Our Father in heaven". Why would anyone pray to a lesser bring, an imperfect sinner, when one can pray to the Crestor? It's an amazing aspect of Christianity that no other religion has: each of us can a have a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe!

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Obviously.

His arguments are intellectually dishonest.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

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Still really interesting to see an Orthodox guy defend the heresy of Catholicism.

I guess you share a common enemy.

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I don't see any of you as an enemy.

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You see Evangelism as the enemy, which is why you regularly mischaracterize and stereotype their beliefs, while defending the heresy of Catholicism.

As I said, it's quite interesting.

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Only heretics we see here is the Helvidianist heretics of which you are one , proudly it would seem.

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Baseless accusation. I have shown why your ideas are heretical based on Christ's own words. You just have baseless accusations, and nothing more.

Mothra, do you ask other Christians to pray for you? If so, why?

Fre3dombear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

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Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

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You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

Theyre confused. On one hand rhey thief on the cross and osas and yet as we understand it the Protestant Christians repeatedly ask forgiveness of their repeated sins disputing their own osas beliefs. Why even waste the time? What an odd perplexing belief system that contradicts itself regularly.

---

There is a difference between the purchase and the permanent securing of our forgiveness once for all at the death of Jesus from the personal possession and enjoyment of that benefit, which comes to us through faith and confession. At the death of Jesus, our sins are canceled, nailed to the cross, debt fully paid. So, payment and securing are accomplished once for all never to be repeated, permanently, infallibly for all God's people when Christ died. He has made this clear. See Hebrews 7:27; Col. 2:13-14.

But the personal reception, the possession, the enjoyment of that achievement, that purchase, that securing of forgiveness comes only through faith in Christ. We are saved, and yet, we are also still sinners. Thus, we are told by Christ that confession is a part of our faith walks. You have to confess your sins in order to make war on them. So, confessing our sin is the agreement with God that we have sin and it must be fought and killed. It is part of the sanctification process.

That is why we do not have to constantly be on pins and needles that we confessed everything before we die. We say an angry word and then get hit by a car, that doesn't mean we now go to Hell because of unconfessed sin. Jesus paid our debt with his death on the cross. Thus, the idea that we must literally confess every sin or risk the fires of Hell is just an unbiblical and absurd notion.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

It's honestly incredible to me that you would compare praying to a dead person to asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Apples to bowling balls. What an absurd comparison.

---

You see, when you die as a Protestant Christian, you gone. Completely severed. Worm food. NADA. Zilch. So sad All those Bible verses to the contrary and even those in the books they removed from the Bible that were inconvenient. They simply ignore like a fart in the wind They become at death it seems.

---

Irrelevant comment to the topic of hand. But as usual, you are having difficulty coming up with a cogent retort, so you resort to insults.

You are going to be quite surprised on the day of judgment, and not in a good way.

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra, do you ask other Christians to pray for you? If so, why?

---

Well, because we have clear examples and precepts of it in scripture. James 5:16 comes to mind, which says, "confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." James 5:14 encourages calling for church elders to pray for the sick. Matthew 18:18 talks about the power of corporate prayer. And of course, Paul has likewise given us clear examples in Thessalonians 5. So, scripture encourages asking others to pray for you and praying for one another.

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

The Temple was God's home and His Presence was literally there above the ark. When people worshipped in the Temple, they worshipped God and no one else.

---

Indeed, you've established the foundational Orthodox principle: material objects can be genuine loci of divine presence, and veneration directed toward them reaches God rather than constituting idolatry of the material thing.

The Ark had Cherubim on it. God commanded them. His Presence dwelt between them. Worshippers bowed toward those angelic images and it was worship of God. So the presence of images of heavenly beings in the worship space, positioned at the very seat of God's presence, was not idolatry but was in fact the God-ordained form of true worship.

what changed? Not the torn veil, because that removed the barrier of sin, not the heavenly court. Hebrews 12 shows the heavenly assembly is still there, still populated, still the reality Christian worship enters into. Revelation shows the cherubim still present, still offering incense, still surrounding the throne.

---

This is what you would call a logical leap.

Worshipping the very presence of God, and worshipping an object are two very different things.

Mothra said:

---

Well, because we have clear examples and precepts of it in scripture. James 5:16 comes to mind, which says, "confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." James 5:14 encourages calling for church elders to pray for the sick. Matthew 18:18 talks about the power of corporate prayer. And of course, Paul has likewise given us clear examples in Thessalonians 5. So, scripture encourages asking others to pray for you and praying for one another.

---

I'm glad that you accept James as authoritative.

James 5:14 tells Christians to do this in the event of illness:

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord"

That is the sacrament of Holy Unction, described in scripture.

I don't like leaving out portions of scripture because they're uncomfortable for my specific theology.

Including James chapter 2.

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Well, because we have clear examples and precepts of it in scripture. James 5:16 comes to mind, which says, "confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." James 5:14 encourages calling for church elders to pray for the sick. Matthew 18:18 talks about the power of corporate prayer. And of course, Paul has likewise given us clear examples in Thessalonians 5. So, scripture encourages asking others to pray for you and praying for one another.

---

I'm glad that you accept James as authoritative.

James 5:14 tells Christians to do this in the event of illness:

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord"

That is the sacrament of Holy Unction, described in scripture.

I don't like leaving out portions of scripture because they're uncomfortable for my specific theology.

Including James chapter 2.

---

I'm not sure what the relevance of this passage is to what we are discussing. Do you understand my position to be that anointing with oil is un biblical? If so, could you please point to the specific post where I state or suggested the same?

Respectfully, this appears to be another one of your silly red herrings. My church actually anoints with oil, my friend.

It sounds like you have no cogent retort to my position that praying to dead people is un biblical. So this is the silly rabbit hole you go down. Typical of your post on this board.

Realitybites said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Well, because we have clear examples and precepts of it in scripture. James 5:16 comes to mind, which says, "confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." James 5:14 encourages calling for church elders to pray for the sick. Matthew 18:18 talks about the power of corporate prayer. And of course, Paul has likewise given us clear examples in Thessalonians 5. So, scripture encourages asking others to pray for you and praying for one another.

---

I'm glad that you accept James as authoritative.

James 5:14 tells Christians to do this in the event of illness:

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord"

That is the sacrament of Holy Unction, described in scripture.

I don't like leaving out portions of scripture because they're uncomfortable for my specific theology.

Including James chapter 2.

---

yes, healing is prayer by self and the elders as well as any other believer in Christ, fasting(matthew 17- fasting helps deepen spirit and scientifically, fasting induces autophagy which promotes healing) and announting with oil.

This is an easy agreement. John 14;13-14

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Still really interesting to see an Orthodox guy defend the heresy of Catholicism.

I guess you share a common enemy.

---

I don't see any of you as an enemy.

---

You see Evangelism as the enemy, which is why you regularly mischaracterize and stereotype their beliefs, while defending the heresy of Catholicism.

As I said, it's quite interesting.

---

Only heretics we see here is the Helvidianist heretics of which you are one , proudly it would seem.

---

Baseless accusation. I have shown why your ideas are heretical based on Christ's own words. You just have baseless accusations, and nothing more.

---

Look it up. It occurred 1000 years before your religion appeared. Helvidianist heretics

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

It's honestly incredible to me that you would compare praying to a dead person to asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Apples to bowling balls. What an absurd comparison.

---

You see, when you die as a Protestant Christian, you gone. Completely severed. Worm food. NADA. Zilch. So sad All those Bible verses to the contrary and even those in the books they removed from the Bible that were inconvenient. They simply ignore like a fart in the wind They become at death it seems.

---

Irrelevant comment to the topic of hand. But as usual, you are having difficulty coming up with a cogent retort, so you resort to insults.

You are going to be quite surprised on the day of judgment, and not in a good way.

---

And there it is. The Protestant Christian with such pride and hubris and judgement of souls. They can't help themselves. Your post above will likely play before your eyes as you hopefully head to
Purgatory and the Catholics will pray for your soul. We don't judge. We leave it to the Just Judge.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Still really interesting to see an Orthodox guy defend the heresy of Catholicism.

I guess you share a common enemy.

---

I don't see any of you as an enemy.

---

You see Evangelism as the enemy, which is why you regularly mischaracterize and stereotype their beliefs, while defending the heresy of Catholicism.

As I said, it's quite interesting.

---

Only heretics we see here is the Helvidianist heretics of which you are one , proudly it would seem.

---

Baseless accusation. I have shown why your ideas are heretical based on Christ's own words. You just have baseless accusations, and nothing more.

---

Look it up. It occurred 1000 years before your religion appeared. Helvidianist heretics

---

Why?

And yes, I proudly am against unbiblical and heretical positions, that is true.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

It's honestly incredible to me that you would compare praying to a dead person to asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Apples to bowling balls. What an absurd comparison.

---

You see, when you die as a Protestant Christian, you gone. Completely severed. Worm food. NADA. Zilch. So sad All those Bible verses to the contrary and even those in the books they removed from the Bible that were inconvenient. They simply ignore like a fart in the wind They become at death it seems.

---

Irrelevant comment to the topic of hand. But as usual, you are having difficulty coming up with a cogent retort, so you resort to insults.

You are going to be quite surprised on the day of judgment, and not in a good way.

---

And there it is. The Protestant Christian wirh such pride and hubris and judgement of souls. They can't help themselves. Your post above will likely play before your eyes as you hopefully head to
Purgatory and the Catholics will pray for your soul. We don't judge. We leave it to the Just Judge.

---

You project more than any poster on this board. Constantly engage in prideful personal attacks on others, and then try to play the victim and good guy when given a taste of your own medicine.

I hope you find Jesus - the real Jesus - before it's too late. It's going to be quite hot where you're headed.

It seems odd that you assign 'pride and hubris' to the opinion you dislike, then pretend you are somehow not judging in place of the Lord.

" It's going to be quite hot where you're headed."

Assuming you don't mean Arizona, a statement like that to a believing Christian is also judgmental and does not serve our Lord, methinks.

Keep in mind I share your opinion on the issue being discussed. It's just that none of us humans gets to wield that gavel when souls are the focus.

There is a difference between sowing seed, and throwing it into someone's face.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

It's honestly incredible to me that you would compare praying to a dead person to asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Apples to bowling balls. What an absurd comparison.

---

You see, when you die as a Protestant Christian, you gone. Completely severed. Worm food. NADA. Zilch. So sad All those Bible verses to the contrary and even those in the books they removed from the Bible that were inconvenient. They simply ignore like a fart in the wind They become at death it seems.

---

Irrelevant comment to the topic of hand. But as usual, you are having difficulty coming up with a cogent retort, so you resort to insults.

You are going to be quite surprised on the day of judgment, and not in a good way.

---

And there it is. The Protestant Christian wirh such pride and hubris and judgement of souls. They can't help themselves. Your post above will likely play before your eyes as you hopefully head to
Purgatory and the Catholics will pray for your soul. We don't judge. We leave it to the Just Judge.

---

You project more than any poster on this board. Constantly engage in prideful personal attacks on others, and then try to play the victim and good guy when given a taste of your own medicine.

I hope you find Jesus - the real Jesus - before it's too late. It's going to be quite hot where you're headed.

---

Nah. You project nonstop and loudest when wrong. Stick to teying to defend your position versus judging souls.

Oldbear83 said:

---

It seems odd that you assign 'pride and hubris' to the opinion you dislike, then pretend you are somehow not judging in place of the Lord.

---

Point out my judging. I'll sit back and wait. I merely defend my position with thousands of years of defense. In this case, the position here was declared heretical nearly 1700 years ago give or take

Thats not judging. Thats informative and stating the facts. Judging me and others wont change thise facts

I get yall dont like it but youre free to dispute it. Judging me wont help. It actually weakens your position.

Youve proven one of the biggest name callers on this board as weve discussed together many times before.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

It's honestly incredible to me that you would compare praying to a dead person to asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Apples to bowling balls. What an absurd comparison.

---

You see, when you die as a Protestant Christian, you gone. Completely severed. Worm food. NADA. Zilch. So sad All those Bible verses to the contrary and even those in the books they removed from the Bible that were inconvenient. They simply ignore like a fart in the wind They become at death it seems.

---

Irrelevant comment to the topic of hand. But as usual, you are having difficulty coming up with a cogent retort, so you resort to insults.

You are going to be quite surprised on the day of judgment, and not in a good way.

---

And there it is. The Protestant Christian wirh such pride and hubris and judgement of souls. They can't help themselves. Your post above will likely play before your eyes as you hopefully head to
Purgatory and the Catholics will pray for your soul. We don't judge. We leave it to the Just Judge.

---

You project more than any poster on this board. Constantly engage in prideful personal attacks on others, and then try to play the victim and good guy when given a taste of your own medicine.

I hope you find Jesus - the real Jesus - before it's too late. It's going to be quite hot where you're headed.

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This would be good to read to a priest in confession this week for you and an appropriate penance.

BTD clone: "Thats not judging. Thats informative and stating the facts. Judging me and others wont change thise facts".

Almost word for word the same behavior.

Pharisees come in many colors, it seems.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Mothra said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

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Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

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Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

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You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

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It's honestly incredible to me that you would compare praying to a dead person to asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Apples to bowling balls. What an absurd comparison.

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You see, when you die as a Protestant Christian, you gone. Completely severed. Worm food. NADA. Zilch. So sad All those Bible verses to the contrary and even those in the books they removed from the Bible that were inconvenient. They simply ignore like a fart in the wind They become at death it seems.

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Irrelevant comment to the topic of hand. But as usual, you are having difficulty coming up with a cogent retort, so you resort to insults.

You are going to be quite surprised on the day of judgment, and not in a good way.

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And there it is. The Protestant Christian wirh such pride and hubris and judgement of souls. They can't help themselves. Your post above will likely play before your eyes as you hopefully head to
Purgatory and the Catholics will pray for your soul. We don't judge. We leave it to the Just Judge.

---

You project more than any poster on this board. Constantly engage in prideful personal attacks on others, and then try to play the victim and good guy when given a taste of your own medicine.

I hope you find Jesus - the real Jesus - before it's too late. It's going to be quite hot where you're headed.

---

Nah. You project nonstop and loudest when wrong. Stick to teying to defend your position versus judging souls.

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So in other words don't do what you do

Oldbear83 said:

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" It's going to be quite hot where you're headed."

Assuming you don't mean Arizona, a statement like that to a believing Christian is also judgmental and does not serve our Lord, methinks.

Keep in mind I share your opinion on the issue being discussed. It's just that none of us humans gets to wield that gavel when souls are the focus.

There is a difference between sowing seed, and throwing it into someone's face.

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Just wanting him to get a taste of his own medicine. He already announced eternal damnation on me

Mothra said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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" It's going to be quite hot where you're headed."

Assuming you don't mean Arizona, a statement like that to a believing Christian is also judgmental and does not serve our Lord, methinks.

Keep in mind I share your opinion on the issue being discussed. It's just that none of us humans gets to wield that gavel when souls are the focus.

There is a difference between sowing seed, and throwing it into someone's face.

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Just wanting him to get a taste of his own medicine. He already announced eternal damnation on me

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Asked Jesus about that. He laughed and told me no one here has that authority, please try to act like we all serve the same Father.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

It's honestly incredible to me that you would compare praying to a dead person to asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Apples to bowling balls. What an absurd comparison.

---

You see, when you die as a Protestant Christian, you gone. Completely severed. Worm food. NADA. Zilch. So sad All those Bible verses to the contrary and even those in the books they removed from the Bible that were inconvenient. They simply ignore like a fart in the wind They become at death it seems.

---

Irrelevant comment to the topic of hand. But as usual, you are having difficulty coming up with a cogent retort, so you resort to insults.

You are going to be quite surprised on the day of judgment, and not in a good way.

---

And there it is. The Protestant Christian wirh such pride and hubris and judgement of souls. They can't help themselves. Your post above will likely play before your eyes as you hopefully head to
Purgatory and the Catholics will pray for your soul. We don't judge. We leave it to the Just Judge.

---

You project more than any poster on this board. Constantly engage in prideful personal attacks on others, and then try to play the victim and good guy when given a taste of your own medicine.

I hope you find Jesus - the real Jesus - before it's too late. It's going to be quite hot where you're headed.

---

I think he and OldBear kinda share that title.

Oldbear83 said:

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Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" It's going to be quite hot where you're headed."

Assuming you don't mean Arizona, a statement like that to a believing Christian is also judgmental and does not serve our Lord, methinks.

Keep in mind I share your opinion on the issue being discussed. It's just that none of us humans gets to wield that gavel when souls are the focus.

There is a difference between sowing seed, and throwing it into someone's face.

---

Just wanting him to get a taste of his own medicine. He already announced eternal damnation on me

---

Asked Jesus about that. He laughed and told me no one here has that authority, please try to act like we all serve the same Father.

---

Jesus has all the authority and satan has none yet humans are afraid of satan and dismissive of Jesus. Humans currently fear the created more than the creator.

Just a general observation..

4th and Inches said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Mothra said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

" It's going to be quite hot where you're headed."

Assuming you don't mean Arizona, a statement like that to a believing Christian is also judgmental and does not serve our Lord, methinks.

Keep in mind I share your opinion on the issue being discussed. It's just that none of us humans gets to wield that gavel when souls are the focus.

There is a difference between sowing seed, and throwing it into someone's face.

---

Just wanting him to get a taste of his own medicine. He already announced eternal damnation on me

---

Asked Jesus about that. He laughed and told me no one here has that authority, please try to act like we all serve the same Father.

---

Jesus has all the authority and satan has none yet humans are afraid of satan and dismissive of Jesus. Humans currently fear the created more than the creator.

Just a general observation..

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I'm no general, not even an officer these days, but I agree.