There is a difference between asking a Christian to pray for you and expecting someone who died 2,000 years ago to pray for you, or pray directly to them.

In fact, when Christ taught us to pray (Lord's Prayer), he prayed directly to "Our Father in heaven". Why would anyone pray to a lesser bring, an imperfect sinner, when one can pray to the Creator? It's an amazing aspect of Christianity that no other religion has: each of us can a have a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe!

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

Y'all need to read this: https://orthochristian.com/87214.html

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

You do realize that the veil was torn in half upon Jesus' death, signifying the end of the Old Covenant - where only the high priest was able to enter where God dwelled and offer the incense and sacrifice to atone for the sins of the people - and the beginning of the New Covenant where and Jesus' himself is now the forever high priest, who by his own once-for-all sacrifice, removed the veil and opened the way to God to all people through himself? The cherubim embroidered on the temple veil were NOT images "through" which the incense was burned and taken to God. They were there as a symbol of how the cherubim guarded Eden to keep man out after man fell and was kicked out, thus separating man from God, in the same way that temple veil was keeping man separate from God's dwelling place in the Temple, the Holy of Holies. There was absolutely NO veneration given "through" them. And now the torn veil means that no cherubim, no images of "holy ones" which you are now making departed saints into, need to be in between us and God, "through" which we reach God for anything, because JESUS is there as the only intercessor, through whom we have direct access to God!

So why on earth are you doing what was done away with by Jesus? By doing the same thing today as the Jews did in the Old Covenant, you are expressly denying Jesus' tearing of the veil, and are effectively resewing it back together and embroidering Mary and the saints on it. You are also giving them the role and capacity that God never said they had and which expressly belongs to Jesus and him alone. It's clear heresy and idolatry. And this was plainly obvious to the the early church, which universally condemned it. Yet you follow the fallible councils of men that decided centuries after Jesus that the belief and practice was required or you are damned to Hell.

How anyone who calls themself a Christian isn't able to see the problem here, and not realize that this absolutely proves that the church councils are NOT infallible, and who thus follows the teachings of a church that espouses all of this in addition to all the aforementioned wicked Marian idolatry where Mary is directly credited for our salvation, is simply beyond me.

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Still really interesting to see an Orthodox guy defend the heresy of Catholicism.

I guess you share a common enemy.

---

I don't see any of you as an enemy.

---

You see Evangelism as the enemy, which is why you regularly mischaracterize and stereotype their beliefs, while defending the heresy of Catholicism.

As I said, it's quite interesting.

---

Only heretics we see here is the Helvidianist heretics of which you are one , proudly it would seem.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

Theyre confused. On one hand rhey thief on the cross and osas and yet as we understand it the Protestant Christians repeatedly ask forgiveness of their repeated sins disputing their own osas beliefs. Why even waste the time? What an odd perplexing belief system that contradicts itself regularly.

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

It's honestly incredible to me that you would compare praying to a dead person to asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Apples to bowling balls. What an absurd comparison.

---

You see, when you die as a Protestant Christian, you gone. Completely severed. Worm food. NADA. Zilch. So sad All those Bible verses to the contrary and even those in the books they removed from the Bible that were inconvenient. They simply ignore like a fart in the wind They become at death it seems.

historian said:

---

There is a difference between asking a Christian to pray for you and expecting someone who died 2,000 years ago to pray for you, or pray directly to them.

In fact, when Christ taught us to pray (Lord's Prayer), he prayed directly to "Our Father in heaven". Why would anyone pray to a lesser bring, an imperfect sinner, when one can pray to the Crestor? It's an amazing aspect of Christianity that no other religion has: each of us can a have a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe!

---

He actually didnt say "Our Father" unless Luther tweaked that

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

Theyre confused. On one hand rhey thief on the cross and osas and yet as we understand it the Protestant Christians repeatedly ask forgiveness of their repeated sins disputing their own osas beliefs. Why even waste the time? What an odd perplexing belief system that contradicts itself regularly.

---

It's a humility thing. Not everyone gets it.

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

Theyre confused. On one hand rhey thief on the cross and osas and yet as we understand it the Protestant Christians repeatedly ask forgiveness of their repeated sins disputing their own osas beliefs. Why even waste the time? What an odd perplexing belief system that contradicts itself regularly.

---

It's a humility thing. Not everyone gets it.

---

Theres a distinct lack of humility by Protestant Christians in this thread. It's actually quite pompous to believe theres literally nothing you have to do beyond close eyes and say I believe at about 8 years and you all good. Imagine the hubris. One prayer for an instant and….

Imagine being so mislead by Luther and Calvin

" Theres a distinct lack of humility by Protestant Christians in this thread."

That's not true. It only seems so, because you have put your assumptions in place of what we actually said.

And just btw, 'mislead' is present tense, I believe you meant to write 'misled', which is still incorrect in fact but at least would have grammatical validity.

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Theres a distinct lack of humility by Protestant Christians in this thread."

That's not true. It only seems so, because you have put your assumptions in place of what we actually said.

---

Wait. Youre finally admiting theres more commanded of a Protestant Christian?

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Theres a distinct lack of humility by Protestant Christians in this thread."

That's not true. It only seems so, because you have put your assumptions in place of what we actually said.

---

Wait. Youre finally admiring theres more commanded of a Protestant Christian?

---

Try reading what we wrote. Some of it actually comes from Christ's teaching and example.


But not sure what you mean by 'finally admiring'. There's many people I admire even when they are wrong, but your meaning seems to have done a bunk.

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

---

The religion that:

• bows and prays to statues and images of Mary;
• sings hymns to her in church;
• celebrates hundreds of festivals throughout the year specifically for her, all over the world;
• has prayers which utter her name TEN TIMES more than they mention God's;
• has a book of psalms where the Psalms from the OT is used, and Mary's name is inserted wherever God's name was;
• believes in, and condones the message of apparitions attributed to her, where she commands that a church be built in her honor, and to spread world-wide devotion to her "Immaculate Heart";
• requires the belief in her characteristics of being sinless, perpetually pure, and bodily ascendant into heaven (the same traits as Jesus) or you go to Hell
• calls her "Advocate", "Co-Mediator", and "The ALL HOLY ONE";
• calls her "sovereign", "peacemaker between sinners and God", "God of this world", "ruler of my house";
• calls her "the salvation of the universe";
• says to her "I give you my heart and soul";
• says to her "In your hands I place my eternal salvation"

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

The Temple was God's home and His Presence was literally there above the ark. When people worshipped in the Temple, they worshipped God and no one else.

historian said:

---

The Temple was God's home and His Presence was literally there above the ark. When people worshipped in the Temple, they worshipped God and no one else.

---

Indeed, you've established the foundational Orthodox principle: material objects can be genuine loci of divine presence, and veneration directed toward them reaches God rather than constituting idolatry of the material thing.

The Ark had Cherubim on it. God commanded them. His Presence dwelt between them. Worshippers bowed toward those angelic images and it was worship of God. So the presence of images of heavenly beings in the worship space, positioned at the very seat of God's presence, was not idolatry but was in fact the God-ordained form of true worship.

what changed? Not the torn veil, because that removed the barrier of sin, not the heavenly court. Hebrews 12 shows the heavenly assembly is still there, still populated, still the reality Christian worship enters into. Revelation shows the cherubim still present, still offering incense, still surrounding the throne.

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

---

Hopefully no one. But anyone who prays to her is engaging in an act of worship.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

Bow down TOWARD the temple, not TO the temple, because that's where God dwelled in that time. He is no longer there as was explained earlier. We don't need to offer God anything, such as worship, prayer, sacrifice, "through" any physical object or representation, but only through Jesus, spiritually, in his name.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

Bow down TOWARD the temple, not TO the temple, because that's where God dwelled in that time. He is no longer there as was explained earlier. We don't need to offer God anything, such as worship, prayer, sacrifice, "through" any physical object or representation, but only through Jesus, spiritually, in his name.

---

You're making a good case for Gnosticism.

Your worship right now involves a physical body, a physical voice, a physical building, and a physical Bible. You cannot actually escape materiality. You've just decided which physical things you're comfortable with and called the rest idolatry.

And "through Jesus" is precisely what we claim. The saints intercede through Christ. Nobody in Orthodoxy is bypassing Jesus. The same Paul who wrote "one mediator" in 1 Timothy 2:5 spent the next verse asking other humans to pray for people. He didn't think those two things contradicted each other. Neither do we.

Stop arguing like a child and make your case theologically instead of hurling insults and calling everyone but your specific denomination a pagan devil.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

You understand that. I understand that. Protestant Christians say it is heresy. IWII

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

---

Hopefully no one. But anyone who prays to her is engaging in an act of worship.

---

Asking Mary mother of God to pray for us is not worship to anyone but a Protestant Christian

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

Bow down TOWARD the temple, not TO the temple, because that's where God dwelled in that time. He is no longer there as was explained earlier. We don't need to offer God anything, such as worship, prayer, sacrifice, "through" any physical object or representation, but only through Jesus, spiritually, in his name.

---

You're making a good case for Gnosticism.

Your worship right now involves a physical body, a physical voice, a physical building, and a physical Bible. You cannot actually escape materiality. You've just decided which physical things you're comfortable with and called the rest idolatry.

And "through Jesus" is precisely what we claim. The saints intercede through Christ. Nobody in Orthodoxy is bypassing Jesus. The same Paul who wrote "one mediator" in 1 Timothy 2:5 spent the next verse asking other humans to pray for people. He didn't think those two things contradicted each other. Neither do we.

Stop arguing like a child and make your case theologically instead of hurling insults and calling everyone but your specific denomination a pagan devil.

---

Through Mary to Christ. As stated at the wedding.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

You understand that. I understand that. Protestant Christians say it is heresy. IWII

---

The emotional intensity is disproportionate to the actual theological stakes being discussed here. There's a real visceral hatred toward Catholicism and Orthodoxy. They're pretty much making the case that there's no possible way we love Christ because they think we worship Mary. It's so childish. It's not even theological or that deep as a discussion.

The torn veil is very important. The timing and direction.

The lesson is the change from separation from God to direct access to the Father through Christ.


Not sure why that needs to be discussed in this thread.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

You understand that. I understand that. Protestant Christians say it is heresy. IWII

---

The emotional intensity is disproportionate to the actual theological stakes being discussed here. There's a real visceral hatred toward Catholicism and Orthodoxy. They're pretty much making the case that there's no possible way we love Christ because they think we worship Mary. It's so childish. It's not even theological or that deep as a discussion.

---

Yes. This I understand. It's why they invest so much energy on Mary

Theyve reduced eternal Salvation to a level of simplicity and hubris I doubt even their founding fathers of Calvin and Luther would even deign to display. Close eyes, no earlier than 8 years, say I love you God, salvation is yours forever, neber to be lost. Nothing more required.

Frankly, covid and YouTube opened millions of peoples eyes which has led to an explosion in Catholicism as anyone with a discerning mind would say, "wait a minute. How can this be? There has to be more to it. It's more than a Bible study and a sunday concert right?"

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

Revelation 5:8 refers to prayers by the saints to God. I don't know if anyone, not even Catholics, who prays to the anonymous elders. I don't claim to completely understand that passage (I don't know if anyone completely understands any of the prophecies in Revelation) but I also see no reason for that one passage to suggest we should pray to any historical individual. They certainly are in no position to answer them.

The reason God created us is to have a personal relationship (He walked in the garden with Adam & Eve before the Fall!). It's also the reason Christ died on the cross to take on our sins and then rose from the dead on Resurrection Sunday to defeat death and provide a means for our salvation. Revelation ends with Christ's final victory over the forces of evil, the great judgment, & the establishment of a new heaven & a new earth. God's people, Christ's church (that is, all Christians), will be United with Him for eternity to fulfill His plan. And it will be glorious!!

---

The Apostles worshipped in the temple prior to being kicked out. The temple worship included offerings of incense to God through the images of the Holy Ones. We do the same thing today

The Cherubim were on the veil (directly in front of the altar of incense) because they bring the incense to God, as we see in Rev 8. The tabernacle as we see in Exod 25 and Heb 8 is a recreation of what Moses saw in the Glory cloud on Mt Sinai. The entire tabernacle/temple complex is an interactive icon wherein the acts of veneration made to the holy image (bowing, offering incense) pass through to the spiritual reality depicted.

It expressly says in Psalm 138 that you participate in the heavenly assembly by bowing to the temple:

"I will give you thanks with all my heart; before the heavenly assembly I will sing praises to you. I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your name…"

Per Exod 25 and Heb 8, we know the tabernacle/temple is a sketch or copy of the heavenly assembly.

It's all in the Bible.

---

Careful. It would appear youre worshiping the physical temple

---

Yeah that psalm says "I will bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name." The object of worship is God.

---

Bow down TOWARD the temple, not TO the temple, because that's where God dwelled in that time. He is no longer there as was explained earlier. We don't need to offer God anything, such as worship, prayer, sacrifice, "through" any physical object or representation, but only through Jesus, spiritually, in his name.

---

You're making a good case for Gnosticism.

Your worship right now involves a physical body, a physical voice, a physical building, and a physical Bible. You cannot actually escape materiality. You've just decided which physical things you're comfortable with and called the rest idolatry.

And "through Jesus" is precisely what we claim. The saints intercede through Christ. Nobody in Orthodoxy is bypassing Jesus. The same Paul who wrote "one mediator" in 1 Timothy 2:5 spent the next verse asking other humans to pray for people. He didn't think those two things contradicted each other. Neither do we.

Stop arguing like a child and make your case theologically instead of hurling insults and calling everyone but your specific denomination a pagan devil.

---

HOW have I NOT made my case theologically, scripturally, historically, factually, and logically? Over and over, I have, and shown you how your beliefs just don't line up with Scripture, church history, facts, and logic. Your insult, much like your beliefs, are just so divorced from truth and reality. You only want to accept the belief that you want, even if it clearly goes against Scripture, and even when it's CLEARLY heretical and idolatrous - "Mary is the salvation of my soul" - my God, what more needs to be said?? THAT's what "arguing like a child" looks like, closing your eyes and ears to what's plainly true in front of them, because it gets in the wy of what they want.

I have a suggestion - if you don't want to be considered a pagan devil, I don't know.... maybe stop pagan practices???

You're constantly arguing and applying concepts and not knowing what the heck you're talking about. GNOSTICISM? What on earth??

Your comparison of worshiping God through my body, my voice, etc. with worshiping God through man made images is just so ridiculously laughable that it doesn't deserve a response. WOW.

Oldbear83 said:

---

The torn veil is very important. The timing and direction.

The lesson is the change from separation from God to direct access to the Father through Christ.


Not sure why that needs to be discussed in this thread.

---

And I believe you missed the point of who sewed the veil a few weeks back.

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

There is a difference between asking a Christian to pray for you and expecting someone who died 2,000 years ago to pray for you, or pray directly to them.

In fact, when Christ taught us to pray (Lord's Prayer), he prayed directly to "Our Father in heaven". Why would anyone pray to a lesser bring, an imperfect sinner, when one can pray to the Crestor? It's an amazing aspect of Christianity that no other religion has: each of us can a have a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe!

---

He actually didnt say "Our Father" unless Luther tweaked that

---

Luther never translated the Bible to English and I don't think any English translations are based on any German text.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

The torn veil is very important. The timing and direction.

The lesson is the change from separation from God to direct access to the Father through Christ.


Not sure why that needs to be discussed in this thread.

---

And I believe you missed the point of who sewed the veil a few weeks back.

---

I addressed that, actually. Someone, thought it was you, had a laugh at it.

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

---

Hopefully no one. But anyone who prays to her is engaging in an act of worship.

---

Asking Mary mother of God to pray for us is not worship to anyone but a Protestant Christian

---

You missed the point. There is no reason to pray to anyone except God Himself. Prayer is a former of worship to whom it is directed. And it's not the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

Salvation has always been about faith in God. Long before Christ's ministry and before the Exodus God had relationships with various men and women who believed in Him. It was always their faith. Hebrews summarizes it very well with numerous examples. Abraham:

"And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness." Genesis 15:6