Mothra said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

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historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

---

Hopefully no one. But anyone who prays to her is engaging in an act of worship.

---

Asking Mary mother of God to pray for us is not worship to anyone but a Protestant Christian

---

You missed the point. There is no reason to pray to anyone except God Himself. Prayer is a former of worship to whom it is directed. And it's not the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

---

Then why even waste the time asking a friend to also
Pray for you? You could have used those milliseconds just talking directly to God? See how this works by your own logic?

It's the Protestant Christians burden to prove their circular illogical belief.

---

Again it's not the same thing! Asking a friend to pray FOR you is perfectly consistent with Christ's teachings. In fact, we are commanded to pray FOR one another. And the prayers of multiple people has an impact. I know from personal experience that when many people were praying for me my life improved. It's part of God's plan and perfectly consistent with His second greatest commandment: love your neighbor as yourself.

But praying TO someone other than God is idolatry, an act of worship of someone who is NOT God. We don't even pray to angels and they are constantly in the presence of God and have been since long before humans were created.

You are using one logical fallacy after another to argue in favor of something you should know is false, unless you are a troll and get your jollies from lies and deception.

---

Catholics dont pray TO anyone. It's called intercessory prayer.

---

Christian's pray TO God and no one else. Intercessory prayer is when one prays FOR someone else.

---

Indeed. It is incredible to me he didn't know this.

---

Well.... maybe not so incredible.

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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Mothra said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

---

Hopefully no one. But anyone who prays to her is engaging in an act of worship.

---

Asking Mary mother of God to pray for us is not worship to anyone but a Protestant Christian

---

You missed the point. There is no reason to pray to anyone except God Himself. Prayer is a former of worship to whom it is directed. And it's not the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

---

Then why even waste the time asking a friend to also
Pray for you? You could have used those milliseconds just talking directly to God? See how this works by your own logic?

It's the Protestant Christians burden to prove their circular illogical belief.

---

Again it's not the same thing! Asking a friend to pray FOR you is perfectly consistent with Christ's teachings. In fact, we are commanded to pray FOR one another. And the prayers of multiple people has an impact. I know from personal experience that when many people were praying for me my life improved. It's part of God's plan and perfectly consistent with His second greatest commandment: love your neighbor as yourself.

But praying TO someone other than God is idolatry, an act of worship of someone who is NOT God. We don't even pray to angels and they are constantly in the presence of God and have been since long before humans were created.

You are using one logical fallacy after another to argue in favor of something you should know is false, unless you are a troll and get your jollies from lies and deception.

---

Catholics dont pray TO anyone. It's called intercessory prayer.

---

Christian's pray TO God and no one else. Intercessory prayer is when one prays FOR someone else.

---

Indeed. It is incredible to me he didn't know this.

---

I have this mental image where he sends emails but leaves the TO field blank, then wonders why he never gets a reply.

---

Yall spend more posts talking about people versus defending your faith positions. Thats when the argument is lost. Yawn.

---

You really should read your own posts again, before saying something like that.

---

Yawn. More of the same.

---

This is why you and BTD are 2 sides of the same Denarius. All hubris, no interest in learning or growing.

Some time back, you complimented me for admitting I am flawed. You are also flawed, yet you refuse to admit it. Many do this, but it is not to your advantage or God's glory that you do this.

---

It's only "hubris" to certain people, when they can't defend their positions against what I say, and so they have to resort to judging my heart and labeling me a "Pharisee" so they can have an excuse not to have to deal with their position being wrong or defective. THAT'S what "no interest in learning or growing" actually looks like.

It's such a tired old game. And you play it the absolute most.

https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/116394704213456431

Sadly the enemy within.

Fre3dombear said:

---

https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/116394704213456431

Sadly the enemy within.

---

Definitely a sign that we should listen to what Pope Leo is saying.

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

---

Hopefully no one. But anyone who prays to her is engaging in an act of worship.

---

Asking Mary mother of God to pray for us is not worship to anyone but a Protestant Christian

---

You missed the point. There is no reason to pray to anyone except God Himself. Prayer is a former of worship to whom it is directed. And it's not the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

---

Then why even waste the time asking a friend to also
Pray for you? You could have used those milliseconds just talking directly to God? See how this works by your own logic?

It's the Protestant Christians burden to prove their circular illogical belief.

---

Again it's not the same thing! Asking a friend to pray FOR you is perfectly consistent with Christ's teachings. In fact, we are commanded to pray FOR one another. And the prayers of multiple people has an impact. I know from personal experience that when many people were praying for me my life improved. It's part of God's plan and perfectly consistent with His second greatest commandment: love your neighbor as yourself.

But praying TO someone other than God is idolatry, an act of worship of someone who is NOT God. We don't even pray to angels and they are constantly in the presence of God and have been since long before humans were created.

You are using one logical fallacy after another to argue in favor of something you should know is false, unless you are a troll and get your jollies from lies and deception.

---

Catholics dont pray TO anyone. It's called intercessory prayer.

---

Christian's pray TO God and no one else. Intercessory prayer is when one prays FOR someone else.

---

God is not anyone. Obviously. Everything must be spoonfed. Mary is asked for intercessionary prayer. Stated a million times as is any saint.

You clearly dont understand the word latria

---

I can ask a friend to pray for me. That's intercessory prayer. Jesus even intercedes for us, because we know Him. But it makes no sense to ask someone who died 2,000 years ago to pray for us, especially when we pray directly to God and ask our closest friends and relatives to pray for us. There is a personal connection. No one alive today has any connection to the person of Mary. It's impossible.

Clearly, I don't use Latin in everyday speech. After all, it is a dead language of limited use today. This does not mean I don't understand the concept, not that I've seen you mention it above.
And not all Catholics treat Mary that way. Some pray directly to her, making requests that should go only to God.

For a thread that began on January 1 with a title placing Mary on an equal footing with Jesus, it has gone through all kinds of variations and seems to have accomplished little. The Catholics are proselytizing their position and Christian's of other faiths state theirs and there seems to be little common ground after 3.5 months of a debate that's been going on for centuries.

Go figure!

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

What religion worships Mary?

---

Hopefully no one. But anyone who prays to her is engaging in an act of worship.

---

Asking Mary mother of God to pray for us is not worship to anyone but a Protestant Christian

---

You missed the point. There is no reason to pray to anyone except God Himself. Prayer is a former of worship to whom it is directed. And it's not the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

---

Then why even waste the time asking a friend to also
Pray for you? You could have used those milliseconds just talking directly to God? See how this works by your own logic?

It's the Protestant Christians burden to prove their circular illogical belief.

---

Again it's not the same thing! Asking a friend to pray FOR you is perfectly consistent with Christ's teachings. In fact, we are commanded to pray FOR one another. And the prayers of multiple people has an impact. I know from personal experience that when many people were praying for me my life improved. It's part of God's plan and perfectly consistent with His second greatest commandment: love your neighbor as yourself.

But praying TO someone other than God is idolatry, an act of worship of someone who is NOT God. We don't even pray to angels and they are constantly in the presence of God and have been since long before humans were created.

You are using one logical fallacy after another to argue in favor of something you should know is false, unless you are a troll and get your jollies from lies and deception.

---

Catholics dont pray TO anyone. It's called intercessory prayer.

---

Christian's pray TO God and no one else. Intercessory prayer is when one prays FOR someone else.

---

God is not anyone. Obviously. Everything must be spoonfed. Mary is asked for intercessionary prayer. Stated a million times as is any saint.

You clearly dont understand the word latria

---

I can ask a friend to pray for me. That's intercessory prayer. Jesus even intercedes for us, because we know Him. But it makes no sense to ask someone who died 2,000 years ago to pray for us, especially when we pray directly to God and ask our closest friends and relatives to pray for us. There is a personal connection. No one alive today has any connection to the person of Mary. It's impossible.

Clearly, I don't use Latin in everyday speech. After all, it is a dead language of limited use today. This does not mean I don't understand the concept, not that I've seen you mention it above.
And not all Catholics treat Mary that way. Some pray directly to her, making requests that should go only to God.

---

Yup.

Fre3dombear said:

---

https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/116394704213456431

Sadly the enemy within.

---

Seems like Popes only speak out against American presidents when they are Republican. Wonder why?

Yeah.... the Pope is God's rep here on earth... which is why he prayed at a mosque and created an islamic prayer room at the Vatican. Obviously the Pope is a flawed human, and is NOT the head of the Church.... only Christ can be the Head of the Church.

Pope Leo might as well become an imam.

He gave Muslims a prayer room inside the Vatican and visited a mosque instead of standing with the Christians being murdered by Muslims in Nigeria.

Do you agree this woke Pope is a huge disgrace to Christianity?

A. Yes
B. No pic.twitter.com/MRuZcvunvM

— 𝔉🅰𝒏 Karoline Leavitt (@WHLeavitt) April 14, 2026

This totally lines up with the nonsense in the official catechism:

841
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

---

I am glad they have come out and officially stated the obvious.

Congrats!

However, it appears this might put you squarely at odds with the Catholicism you've defended.

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

---

I am glad they have come out and officially stated the obvious.

Congrats!

However, it appears this might put you squarely at odds with the Catholicism you've defended.

---

How so? I'm not Roman Catholic

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

---

Very unfortunate and divisive.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

---

Very unfortunate and divisive.

---

Incredible to hear this from a self-professed Christian.

This is what happens when you don't care about another person's soul.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

---

I am glad they have come out and officially stated the obvious.

Congrats!

However, it appears this might put you squarely at odds with the Catholicism you've defended.

---

How so? I'm not Roman Catholic

---

You're not Roman Catholic. You just defend the heresy of Roman Catholicism constantly on these boards.

Leo seems to believe that Christians and Muslims do share a belief in the same God, which is why Catholics like Sam find these comments so "unfortunate" and "divisive."

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

---

I am glad they have come out and officially stated the obvious.

Congrats!

However, it appears this might put you squarely at odds with the Catholicism you've defended.

---

How so? I'm not Roman Catholic

---

Good point. Frankly I don't recall any denomination of note calling itself 'Catholic' except the Roman Catholics.

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

---

I am glad they have come out and officially stated the obvious.

Congrats!

However, it appears this might put you squarely at odds with the Catholicism you've defended.

---

How so? I'm not Roman Catholic

---

You're not Roman Catholic. You just defend the heresy of Roman Catholicism constantly on these boards.

Leo seems to believe that Christians and Muslims do share a belief in the same God, which is why Catholics like Sam find these comments so "unfortunate" and "divisive."

---

That's a weak argument.

You do realize there are some things that most protestants, catholic and orthodox 100% agree on right? We all affirm Nicaea and the Holy Trinity for example. Would you not defend the Holy Trinity because the Orthodox and Catholics affirm it?

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

---

I am glad they have come out and officially stated the obvious.

Congrats!

However, it appears this might put you squarely at odds with the Catholicism you've defended.

---

How so? I'm not Roman Catholic

---

You're not Roman Catholic. You just defend the heresy of Roman Catholicism constantly on these boards.

Leo seems to believe that Christians and Muslims do share a belief in the same God, which is why Catholics like Sam find these comments so "unfortunate" and "divisive."

---

That's a weak argument.

You do realize there are some things that most protestants, catholic and orthodox 100% agree on right? We all affirm Nicaea and the Holy Trinity for example. Would you not defend the Holy Trinity because the Orthodox and Catholics affirm it?

---

You and I can agree on these points, but you might need to google what Leo has said on this subject.

Back to the thread title for a moment.

"Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Man doesn't even have to imagine God Himself willfully doing such a thing.

"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

BREAKING: Russian Orthodox Church declares the belief that Muslims and Christians share the same God is ‘Heresy’

Newly commissioned report from Moscow Theological Academy declares that to believe any of the following is ‘Radically incompatible with the Orthodox faith’

1.… pic.twitter.com/YQGubqSRl9

— CleavetoAntiquity (@C2Antiquity) February 10, 2026

---

Very unfortunate and divisive.

---

"No one who denies the Son has the Father." - 1 John 2:23

Being "divisive" from what's false is what believers are supposed to do. Hence, Protestantism.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

LOL, indeed.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

Lol don't kid yourself. "Protestants have always believed"…which Protestants exactly? The ELCA holding hands with imams at interfaith services? The Episcopal Church hosting Muslim prayers in their cathedrals? The United Methodist Church's formal WCC ecumenical commitments?
Protestants have no magisterium to define what "Protestants have always believed" about anything.

Orthodoxy has been consistently and explicitly anti-ecumenist since the beginning. 1800+ years before your niche extreme version of Calvinism came about.

ShooterTX said:

---

841
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

---

It makes a lot more sense in context. Islam is not considered a valid or saving faith.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

841
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

---

It makes a lot more sense in context. Islam is not considered a valid or saving faith.

---

accurate, it isnt a valid or saving faith.. (just like every other faith that doesnt believe in Jesus as the only way into Heaven)

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

Lol don't kid yourself. "Protestants have always believed"…which Protestants exactly? The ELCA holding hands with imams at interfaith services? The Episcopal Church hosting Muslim prayers in their cathedrals? The United Methodist Church's formal WCC ecumenical commitments?
Protestants have no magisterium to define what "Protestants have always believed" about anything.

Orthodoxy has been consistently and explicitly anti-ecumenist since the beginning. 1800+ years before your niche extreme version of Calvinism came about.

---

Oh, I don't doubt Orthodoxy's committment to anti-ecumenism. You've even kept separate from true Christianity!

The good thing about Protestantism, is precisely that there's no "magisterium" of fallible men dictating the tenets of the faith for all their followers. When a Protestant denomination goes corrupt, believers are free to follow their conscience and leave without jeopardizing their eternal fate; or they can fight to reform their church using Scripture as the standard of measure. On the other hand, when a "magisterium" goes corrupt, there is no fix, as they claim themselves to be the standard, therefore all their followers must bind their conscience to their decisions, no matter how apostate. And if you leave, you're condemned to Hell.

An undeniable constant of humanity is the fallibility of all men, and that power corrupts. God's word, however, is perfect and infallible. Protestantism understands this. Both RC and Orthodoxy deny it, and are under the terribly mistaken notion that a special, selected group of men are promised to be completely immune from error. A promise NEVER given by God, and a common characteristic of cults all over the world.

The immensely sad result of such ecclesial corruption is that you have millions, perhaps billions of people all over the world who simply can't grasp what ANY true Christian with the Holy Spirit can grasp -- that if you're bowing and praying to idols, crediting Mary for your salvation, and believing in a gospel of faith AND works..... it's quite apparent that somehow, some way, somewhere along the line, you've been bamboozled.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

841
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

---

It makes a lot more sense in context. Islam is not considered a valid or saving faith.

---

It makes no sense at all to claim that Islam "adores" the one, merciful God when in reality they "adore" a false god who is nothing like the One True God. Catholics need to reject 841 outright, and they should convene a council to correct this massive mistake.

Once again, Catholics got it very, very wrong.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

Lol don't kid yourself. "Protestants have always believed"…which Protestants exactly? The ELCA holding hands with imams at interfaith services? The Episcopal Church hosting Muslim prayers in their cathedrals? The United Methodist Church's formal WCC ecumenical commitments?
Protestants have no magisterium to define what "Protestants have always believed" about anything.

Orthodoxy has been consistently and explicitly anti-ecumenist since the beginning. 1800+ years before your niche extreme version of Calvinism came about.

---

The good thing about Protestantism, is precisely that there's no "magisterium" of fallible men dictating the tenets of the faith for all their followers. When a Protestant denomination goes corrupt, believers are free to follow their conscience and leave without jeopardizing their eternal fate; or they can fight to reform their church using Scripture as the standard of measure. On the other hand, when a "magisterium" goes corrupt, there is no fix, as they claim themselves to be the standard, therefore all their followers must bind their conscience to their decisions, no matter how apostate. And if you leave, you're condemned to Hell.

---

Amen to this.

ShooterTX said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

841
The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

---

It makes a lot more sense in context. Islam is not considered a valid or saving faith.

---

It makes no sense at all to claim that Islam "adores" the one, merciful God when in reality they "adore" a false god who is nothing like the One True God. Catholics need to reject 841 outright, and they should convene a council to correct this massive mistake.

Once again, Catholics got it very, very wrong.

---

Yup.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

Lol don't kid yourself. "Protestants have always believed"…which Protestants exactly? The ELCA holding hands with imams at interfaith services? The Episcopal Church hosting Muslim prayers in their cathedrals? The United Methodist Church's formal WCC ecumenical commitments?
Protestants have no magisterium to define what "Protestants have always believed" about anything.

Orthodoxy has been consistently and explicitly anti-ecumenist since the beginning. 1800+ years before your niche extreme version of Calvinism came about.

---

Oh, I don't doubt Orthodoxy's committment to anti-ecumenism. You've even kept separate from true Christianity!

The good thing about Protestantism, is precisely that there's no "magisterium" of fallible men dictating the tenets of the faith for all their followers. When a Protestant denomination goes corrupt, believers are free to follow their conscience and leave without jeopardizing their eternal fate; or they can fight to reform their church using Scripture as the standard of measure. On the other hand, when a "magisterium" goes corrupt, there is no fix, as they claim themselves to be the standard, therefore all their followers must bind their conscience to their decisions, no matter how apostate. And if you leave, you're condemned to Hell.

An undeniable constant of humanity is the fallibility of all men, and that power corrupts. God's word, however, is perfect and infallible. Protestantism understands this. Both RC and Orthodoxy deny it, and are under the terribly mistaken notion that a special, selected group of men are promised to be completely immune from error. A promise NEVER given by God, and a common characteristic of cults all over the world.

The immensely sad result of such ecclesial corruption is that you have millions, perhaps billions of people all over the world who simply can't grasp what ANY true Christian with the Holy Spirit can grasp -- that if you're bowing and praying to idols, crediting Mary for your salvation, and believing in a gospel of faith AND works..... it's quite apparent that somehow, some way, somewhere along the line, you've been bamboozled.

---

Which true Christianity? Yours? Congratulations, you've appointed yourself the magisterium you claim to reject.

You say no fallible men should define the faith...then you proceeded to define the faith. You determined what's apostasy, what's idolatry, what's a corrupt church and who's been bamboozled. You didn't eliminate the magisterium...you are the magisterium.

Christ promised "The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church", and your position forces you to deny that or the Church collapsed and wasn't recovered until Luther and then really not until the 1900s where you get most of your theology from.

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

Lol don't kid yourself. "Protestants have always believed"…which Protestants exactly? The ELCA holding hands with imams at interfaith services? The Episcopal Church hosting Muslim prayers in their cathedrals? The United Methodist Church's formal WCC ecumenical commitments?
Protestants have no magisterium to define what "Protestants have always believed" about anything.

Orthodoxy has been consistently and explicitly anti-ecumenist since the beginning. 1800+ years before your niche extreme version of Calvinism came about.

---

Oh, I don't doubt Orthodoxy's committment to anti-ecumenism. You've even kept separate from true Christianity!

The good thing about Protestantism, is precisely that there's no "magisterium" of fallible men dictating the tenets of the faith for all their followers. When a Protestant denomination goes corrupt, believers are free to follow their conscience and leave without jeopardizing their eternal fate; or they can fight to reform their church using Scripture as the standard of measure. On the other hand, when a "magisterium" goes corrupt, there is no fix, as they claim themselves to be the standard, therefore all their followers must bind their conscience to their decisions, no matter how apostate. And if you leave, you're condemned to Hell.

An undeniable constant of humanity is the fallibility of all men, and that power corrupts. God's word, however, is perfect and infallible. Protestantism understands this. Both RC and Orthodoxy deny it, and are under the terribly mistaken notion that a special, selected group of men are promised to be completely immune from error. A promise NEVER given by God, and a common characteristic of cults all over the world.

The immensely sad result of such ecclesial corruption is that you have millions, perhaps billions of people all over the world who simply can't grasp what ANY true Christian with the Holy Spirit can grasp -- that if you're bowing and praying to idols, crediting Mary for your salvation, and believing in a gospel of faith AND works..... it's quite apparent that somehow, some way, somewhere along the line, you've been bamboozled.

---

Which true Christianity? Yours? Congratulations, you've appointed yourself the magisterium you claim to reject.

You say no fallible men should define the faith...then you proceeded to define the faith. You determined what's apostasy, what's idolatry, what's a corrupt church and who's been bamboozled. You didn't eliminate the magisterium...you are the magisterium.

Christ promised "The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church", and your position forces you to deny that or the Church collapsed and wasn't recovered until Luther and then really not until the 1900s where you get most of your theology from.

---

Fully incorrect.

The Holy Scriptures are the "magisterium". True Christianity does not have a magisterium of men, but follows the infallible Word of God instead.

Nice try, but you truly got it all wrong.

ShooterTX said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

Lol don't kid yourself. "Protestants have always believed"…which Protestants exactly? The ELCA holding hands with imams at interfaith services? The Episcopal Church hosting Muslim prayers in their cathedrals? The United Methodist Church's formal WCC ecumenical commitments?
Protestants have no magisterium to define what "Protestants have always believed" about anything.

Orthodoxy has been consistently and explicitly anti-ecumenist since the beginning. 1800+ years before your niche extreme version of Calvinism came about.

---

Oh, I don't doubt Orthodoxy's committment to anti-ecumenism. You've even kept separate from true Christianity!

The good thing about Protestantism, is precisely that there's no "magisterium" of fallible men dictating the tenets of the faith for all their followers. When a Protestant denomination goes corrupt, believers are free to follow their conscience and leave without jeopardizing their eternal fate; or they can fight to reform their church using Scripture as the standard of measure. On the other hand, when a "magisterium" goes corrupt, there is no fix, as they claim themselves to be the standard, therefore all their followers must bind their conscience to their decisions, no matter how apostate. And if you leave, you're condemned to Hell.

An undeniable constant of humanity is the fallibility of all men, and that power corrupts. God's word, however, is perfect and infallible. Protestantism understands this. Both RC and Orthodoxy deny it, and are under the terribly mistaken notion that a special, selected group of men are promised to be completely immune from error. A promise NEVER given by God, and a common characteristic of cults all over the world.

The immensely sad result of such ecclesial corruption is that you have millions, perhaps billions of people all over the world who simply can't grasp what ANY true Christian with the Holy Spirit can grasp -- that if you're bowing and praying to idols, crediting Mary for your salvation, and believing in a gospel of faith AND works..... it's quite apparent that somehow, some way, somewhere along the line, you've been bamboozled.

---

Which true Christianity? Yours? Congratulations, you've appointed yourself the magisterium you claim to reject.

You say no fallible men should define the faith...then you proceeded to define the faith. You determined what's apostasy, what's idolatry, what's a corrupt church and who's been bamboozled. You didn't eliminate the magisterium...you are the magisterium.

Christ promised "The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church", and your position forces you to deny that or the Church collapsed and wasn't recovered until Luther and then really not until the 1900s where you get most of your theology from.

---

Fully incorrect.

The Holy Scriptures are the "magisterium". True Christianity does not have a magisterium of men, but follows the infallible Word of God instead.

Nice try, but you truly got it all wrong.

---

Impossible. Claiming the Bible is the magisterium is like claiming a Constitution is a Judge. The Judge is bound by the Constitution, the Constitution cannot explain itself, settle a court case, or stop someone from misinterpreting it.

When two people read the same verse and arrive at opposite conclusions, the Bible remains silent on the shelf. The Magisterium is the living voice that adjudicates the interpretation. You can't claim both parties are guided by the Holy Spirit because then you'd have to claim the Holy Spirit is dishing out contradictions.

Do you know what the definition of The Pillar of Truth is? Its the Church.1 Timothy 3:15 explicitly states: "...the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."

Jesus did not tell the Apostles, "Go and write a book and give everyone a copy." He said, "Go and make disciples... teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:19-20). Do you really think all that he commanded is only found in scripture?

In Acts 8, when the Eunuch is reading Isaiah, Philip asks if he understands. The Eunuch responds, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" (Acts 8:31). This is the functional necessity of a Magisterium.

IN 2 Thess 2:15, we're told to hold to "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." Can you tell me ANY single spoken word that we're supposed to hold to? If you consider that the total word count of Paul's letters in the New Testament can be read in a few hours, it becomes clear that his written "Scripture" represents only a tiny fraction of the "traditions" and "spoken words" he imparted to the churches over his 30-year career.

You have no faith that Christ was able to setup a visible Church.

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

Lol don't kid yourself. "Protestants have always believed"…which Protestants exactly? The ELCA holding hands with imams at interfaith services? The Episcopal Church hosting Muslim prayers in their cathedrals? The United Methodist Church's formal WCC ecumenical commitments?
Protestants have no magisterium to define what "Protestants have always believed" about anything.

Orthodoxy has been consistently and explicitly anti-ecumenist since the beginning. 1800+ years before your niche extreme version of Calvinism came about.

---

Oh, I don't doubt Orthodoxy's committment to anti-ecumenism. You've even kept separate from true Christianity!

The good thing about Protestantism, is precisely that there's no "magisterium" of fallible men dictating the tenets of the faith for all their followers. When a Protestant denomination goes corrupt, believers are free to follow their conscience and leave without jeopardizing their eternal fate; or they can fight to reform their church using Scripture as the standard of measure. On the other hand, when a "magisterium" goes corrupt, there is no fix, as they claim themselves to be the standard, therefore all their followers must bind their conscience to their decisions, no matter how apostate. And if you leave, you're condemned to Hell.

An undeniable constant of humanity is the fallibility of all men, and that power corrupts. God's word, however, is perfect and infallible. Protestantism understands this. Both RC and Orthodoxy deny it, and are under the terribly mistaken notion that a special, selected group of men are promised to be completely immune from error. A promise NEVER given by God, and a common characteristic of cults all over the world.

The immensely sad result of such ecclesial corruption is that you have millions, perhaps billions of people all over the world who simply can't grasp what ANY true Christian with the Holy Spirit can grasp -- that if you're bowing and praying to idols, crediting Mary for your salvation, and believing in a gospel of faith AND works..... it's quite apparent that somehow, some way, somewhere along the line, you've been bamboozled.

---

Which true Christianity? Yours? Congratulations, you've appointed yourself the magisterium you claim to reject.

You say no fallible men should define the faith...then you proceeded to define the faith. You determined what's apostasy, what's idolatry, what's a corrupt church and who's been bamboozled. You didn't eliminate the magisterium...you are the magisterium.

Christ promised "The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church", and your position forces you to deny that or the Church collapsed and wasn't recovered until Luther and then really not until the 1900s where you get most of your theology from.

---

So, to be clear, you need a magisterium to explain to you what "true Christianity" is?

Wow.

Doc Holliday said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

Lol don't kid yourself. "Protestants have always believed"…which Protestants exactly? The ELCA holding hands with imams at interfaith services? The Episcopal Church hosting Muslim prayers in their cathedrals? The United Methodist Church's formal WCC ecumenical commitments?
Protestants have no magisterium to define what "Protestants have always believed" about anything.

Orthodoxy has been consistently and explicitly anti-ecumenist since the beginning. 1800+ years before your niche extreme version of Calvinism came about.

---

Oh, I don't doubt Orthodoxy's committment to anti-ecumenism. You've even kept separate from true Christianity!

The good thing about Protestantism, is precisely that there's no "magisterium" of fallible men dictating the tenets of the faith for all their followers. When a Protestant denomination goes corrupt, believers are free to follow their conscience and leave without jeopardizing their eternal fate; or they can fight to reform their church using Scripture as the standard of measure. On the other hand, when a "magisterium" goes corrupt, there is no fix, as they claim themselves to be the standard, therefore all their followers must bind their conscience to their decisions, no matter how apostate. And if you leave, you're condemned to Hell.

An undeniable constant of humanity is the fallibility of all men, and that power corrupts. God's word, however, is perfect and infallible. Protestantism understands this. Both RC and Orthodoxy deny it, and are under the terribly mistaken notion that a special, selected group of men are promised to be completely immune from error. A promise NEVER given by God, and a common characteristic of cults all over the world.

The immensely sad result of such ecclesial corruption is that you have millions, perhaps billions of people all over the world who simply can't grasp what ANY true Christian with the Holy Spirit can grasp -- that if you're bowing and praying to idols, crediting Mary for your salvation, and believing in a gospel of faith AND works..... it's quite apparent that somehow, some way, somewhere along the line, you've been bamboozled.

---

Which true Christianity? Yours? Congratulations, you've appointed yourself the magisterium you claim to reject.

You say no fallible men should define the faith...then you proceeded to define the faith. You determined what's apostasy, what's idolatry, what's a corrupt church and who's been bamboozled. You didn't eliminate the magisterium...you are the magisterium.

Christ promised "The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church", and your position forces you to deny that or the Church collapsed and wasn't recovered until Luther and then really not until the 1900s where you get most of your theology from.

---

Fully incorrect.

The Holy Scriptures are the "magisterium". True Christianity does not have a magisterium of men, but follows the infallible Word of God instead.

Nice try, but you truly got it all wrong.

---

Impossible. Claiming the Bible is the magisterium is like claiming a Constitution is a Judge. The Judge is bound by the Constitution, the Constitution cannot explain itself, settle a court case, or stop someone from misinterpreting it.

---

This is an interesting analogy, especially given the wide range of jurisprudence interpreting the Constitution, which as we've seen the last few years, is often times overruled when a new majority comes into power.

I remember sitting through Constitutional Law, and trying to decipher from the Constitution this elusive "right to privacy" inherent in the Constitution - or at least so we were told my the magisterium at that time. I couldn't find it, and my eyes told me that this was a bunch of made up b.s. by the magisterium to reach the conclusion it wanted to reach. The plain language of the Constitution told me there simply was no such right, much less a right that would justify such a heinous practice.

Fast forward a few decades, and now the magisterium tells me I was right all along - there was no such thing as a right to privacy inherent in the plain language of the Constitution. I of course knew this 20 years ago, but had that knowledge validated.

The idea that the individual believer cannot know God's will or the central tenets of the faith without a fallible group of men telling me what the plain language I read means is just utter hogwash, and the reason so many of your ilk succumb to heresy.

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Meanwhile Orthodoxy continues to be have massive wins:

---

I'm glad that you see it as a "massive win" to finally align with what Protestants have always believed.

---

Lol don't kid yourself. "Protestants have always believed"…which Protestants exactly? The ELCA holding hands with imams at interfaith services? The Episcopal Church hosting Muslim prayers in their cathedrals? The United Methodist Church's formal WCC ecumenical commitments?
Protestants have no magisterium to define what "Protestants have always believed" about anything.

Orthodoxy has been consistently and explicitly anti-ecumenist since the beginning. 1800+ years before your niche extreme version of Calvinism came about.

---

Oh, I don't doubt Orthodoxy's committment to anti-ecumenism. You've even kept separate from true Christianity!

The good thing about Protestantism, is precisely that there's no "magisterium" of fallible men dictating the tenets of the faith for all their followers. When a Protestant denomination goes corrupt, believers are free to follow their conscience and leave without jeopardizing their eternal fate; or they can fight to reform their church using Scripture as the standard of measure. On the other hand, when a "magisterium" goes corrupt, there is no fix, as they claim themselves to be the standard, therefore all their followers must bind their conscience to their decisions, no matter how apostate. And if you leave, you're condemned to Hell.

An undeniable constant of humanity is the fallibility of all men, and that power corrupts. God's word, however, is perfect and infallible. Protestantism understands this. Both RC and Orthodoxy deny it, and are under the terribly mistaken notion that a special, selected group of men are promised to be completely immune from error. A promise NEVER given by God, and a common characteristic of cults all over the world.

The immensely sad result of such ecclesial corruption is that you have millions, perhaps billions of people all over the world who simply can't grasp what ANY true Christian with the Holy Spirit can grasp -- that if you're bowing and praying to idols, crediting Mary for your salvation, and believing in a gospel of faith AND works..... it's quite apparent that somehow, some way, somewhere along the line, you've been bamboozled.

---

Which true Christianity? Yours? Congratulations, you've appointed yourself the magisterium you claim to reject.

You say no fallible men should define the faith...then you proceeded to define the faith. You determined what's apostasy, what's idolatry, what's a corrupt church and who's been bamboozled. You didn't eliminate the magisterium...you are the magisterium.

Christ promised "The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church", and your position forces you to deny that or the Church collapsed and wasn't recovered until Luther and then really not until the 1900s where you get most of your theology from.

---

Fully incorrect.

The Holy Scriptures are the "magisterium". True Christianity does not have a magisterium of men, but follows the infallible Word of God instead.

Nice try, but you truly got it all wrong.

---

Impossible. Claiming the Bible is the magisterium is like claiming a Constitution is a Judge. The Judge is bound by the Constitution, the Constitution cannot explain itself, settle a court case, or stop someone from misinterpreting it.

---

This is an interesting analogy, especially given the wide range of jurisprudence interpreting the Constitution, which as we've seen the last few years, is often times overruled when a new majority comes into power.

I remember sitting through Constitutional Law, and trying to decipher from the Constitution this elusive "right to privacy" inherent in the Constitution - or at least so we were told my the magisterium at that time. I couldn't find it, and my eyes told me that this was a bunch of made up b.s. by the magisterium to reach the conclusion it wanted to reach. The plain language of the Constitution told me there simply was no such right, much less a right that would justify such a heinous practice.

Fast forward a few decades, and now the magisterium tells me I was right all along - there was no such thing as a right to privacy inherent in the plain language of the Constitution. I of course knew this 20 years ago, but had that knowledge validated.

The idea that the individual believer cannot know God's will or the central tenets of the faith without a fallible group of men telling me what the plain language I read means is just utter hogwash, and the reason so many of your ilk succumb to heresy.

---

The very fact that brilliant legal minds, all reading the same document, spent decades in fierce disagreement proves that language is rarely "plain" in its application.

If the text were truly "plain," there would be no need for a Supreme Court at all. The existence of the court is a confession that texts require an authorized interpreter to function in a society. Without it, you don't get "the plain meaning", you get legal anarchy, where every citizen is their own Supreme Court. This is exactly what has happened in "Bible only" Christianity: thousands of "Supreme Courts" all claiming the "plain meaning" while contradicting one another on the nature of God, salvation, and morality.

2 Peter 3:16 "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

There's no verse in the Gospel of Matthew where the author says, "I, Matthew the tax collector, wrote this." We only know these were the authors because of Sacred Tradition: the oral and written testimony passed down by the early Bishops (the Magisterium). YOU HOLD TO THIS!

Every major heresy in the first millennium (Arianism, Gnosticism, Nestorianism) was started by an individual or a small group claiming they finally understood the "plain language" of Scripture better than the established Church.