President Trump announces military strikes on Iran: Operation Epic Fury

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FLBear5630
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ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

Tell us without telling us you don't know Shia from Sunni.

Iran's refusal to negotiate a ceasefire has nothing to do with martyrdom or global jihad. It's a predictable (and predicted) calculation by the country with the upper hand in the war.

Lol I didn't say anything about Sunni/Shia, and Iran is most definitely not winning the war. Good Lord.

The regime is starting to come apart. Exactly as I suggested it might.




Suggested it might??? You bet the mortgage... If the ends in anything other than a total regime collapse and Iranian's rejoicing in the streets you lost the house..

Your reading comprehension is as bad as your analytical skills. I specifically said in the initial post on the matter that I was not predicting it, but rather instantiating it as a scenario to watch for. We now see actions which fit the opening phases of such a scenario. What we see now may be all we see. Or events could devolve further. Just gotta watch.

The Iranian regime is in what almost certainly a planned survival strategy - go to ground...survive....act on pre-existing orders - with no real need for constant commo with the Hqs element. Define victory as survival and just try to outlast. It's analogous to insurgent cellular structures, where there is zero lateral communication....where units are clueless as to even the existence of other elements and are acting solely on discretion within a defined order of battle. That's a perfectly reasonable survival strategy. But it's a terrible way to fight a war. There is no maneuver. No mass. No concentration. No ability to mount an effective counterattack in any meaningful way. Just hunker down and take it while leaving your enemy free to operate t discretion.

One reason for Trump doing all the public yammering? To stoke exactly such divisions cited above. To incite remaining religious structures to attack remaining secular structures in order to prevent latter from cutting a peace deal. Problem is, the cellular structure the regime has adopted as a survival strategy leaves itself vulnerable to exactly what we are doing - destabilizing the regime by stoking fears of one portion of the regime seeking a separate peace at the expense of the other.

One thing for sure among all scenarios? One where Iran wins. They are in a world of hurt. Their best case outcome is a reset to 1980. You are digging yourself an awfully deep hole here........
If we don't find the off ramp within a reasonably short time frame, it will be a significant geopolitical shift, but not what you think. Hamas has not been defeated in Gaza. Sure, they're militarily and infrastructurally decimated. They've lost dozens if not hundreds of their leaders, and at least half of the land area they previously controlled. But they remain in power.

We're going after Iran. They are defined by mosaic defense. It's not only how they control such a large nation, the IRGC operates normally in dispersed command and control. Decapitation doesn't stop them, and they were built to operate without real time battle orders. It not only makes them resilient, it increases the danger as some regional actors may escalate in ways others may not agree with. It's likely the source of some of the regional potshots they've taken on neighbors.

You of all people should know that the exact tactics you discuss above are why great powers struggle long term and accumulate great cost in both money and blood in asymmetric warfare. We were never not going to be able to crush them on a comparative basis. But the calculus is not 1 to 1. It's more like 1000 to 1 or greater in many scenarios. Iran doesn't need a Navy. They only need to project a threat on traffic in the Strait of Hormuz. That cost to the world is greater than the entire military and industrial value of Iran.

At this point I'm not even sure if actual discussions are happening, and that's not a good thing. And Trump can do all the public "yammering" he wants. Other than official channels, communications in Iran are mostly a black hole, and what does happen is still state directed.

We've achieved a decimation of their nuclear capability and greatly weakened their military apparatus. If we move to regime change and rooting out the RGC, it's going to be a slog.


Part of the issue is conflicting policy points, we are shedding allies yet expanding our footprint. We are choosing to destabilize areas requiring more resources for less return. At the same time, letting China and Russia off, at the expense of traditional allies. (such as Russian oil).

As I said, and I agree with him ATL Bear, Iran dies not have to win, they just have to not lose. They do nit need a Navy, they control Homuz with asymmetrical means. All they need is to keep it drawing US resources in.

Give me Mattis over Hegseth any day. This is not a winnable strategy. Hell one carrier is already out for whatever reason. Add Houthis closing Red Sea? This is overreach and poor planning after the first strike.
J.R.
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wut? Hegseth is awesome, just ask him. A plan might have been nice. Who in the world didn't think they'd close the Straight? Man this thing is seriously FUBRD. obviously, they didn't listen to the intelligence community. He was so cock sure we'd roll right in there just like Venezuela . not so much
Realitybites
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Hegseth has proven to be a very poor strategic thinker.

While I appreciate his willingness to "de-woke" the military, he is in over his head.

But we're dealing with a Fox News contributor whose military career peaked at O-4.

In the interest of fairness, that I'm not sure how much agency he actually has. When the commander-in-chief of your commander-in-chief Doordashes a war, he gets a war.
Realitybites
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Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.
Mitch Blood Green
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Realitybites said:

Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.
KaiBear
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Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.
KaiBear
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Mitch Blood Green said:

Realitybites said:

Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.


Long overdue.

Those desalination plants should have been destroyed on Day One.
william
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Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Redbrickbear said:

Sam Lowry said:



Iran's refusal to negotiate a ceasefire has nothing to do with martyrdom or global jihad. It's a predictable (and predicted) calculation by the country with the upper hand in the war.


How many countries (especially those ruled by ideological regimes) have gone down to the end insisting they were winning?

I think we have several examples in history





The plans for this war have been set forth in policy papers for at least a couple of decades. Ground troops have been seen as a last resort. We wouldn't be talking about them (or about a ceasefire) if we were winning.


LOL

Yeah, Iran is winning.

That's why they have had to bury most of their government and military leadership.

Okay. To what end? If the mission was to bury Khamenei, are we done now?

IRN would be very wise to cede control over the SoH - in exchange for a prolonged cease fire / trial run.

That's the last thing ISR wants - but the US would be fine with.

- UF

.... oh, and stop bombing your Muslim neighbors.

D!

{ sipping coffee }

{ eating donut }

Go Bears!!
pro ecclesia, pro javelina
william
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KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.

Straight from Les Buttocks.....

- UF

Baghdad Sam.....

pro ecclesia, pro javelina
Mitch Blood Green
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KaiBear said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

Realitybites said:

Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.


Long overdue.

Those desalination plants should have been destroyed on Day One.

You want Israel to lose their desalination plants? Not only is this a war crime, but it's not going to be a one-way street. There's this crazy thing happening in America today. The idea that you can **** with me, but I can't **** with you. As we like to say, Israel has a right to defend itself. Iran has a right to defend itself, too.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

Tell us without telling us you don't know Shia from Sunni.

Iran's refusal to negotiate a ceasefire has nothing to do with martyrdom or global jihad. It's a predictable (and predicted) calculation by the country with the upper hand in the war.

The regime is starting to come apart. Exactly as I suggested it might.




Amusing propaganda from a Saudi-backed monarchist outlet (these are the same people who think Pahlavi would be a viable leader for Iran). Someone should inform them that Pezeshkian has no authority over national security decisions.
Sam Lowry
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KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.

That was Iraq in 2003. Try invading Iran today with 200K troops and see what happens.
Sam Lowry
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Mitch Blood Green said:

Realitybites said:

Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.

Iran would likely respond in kind. The trouble is that they only depend on desalination plants for 1% or less of their water. Our Arab allies rely on desalination for 70%-90% of theirs. So there would be a humanitarian crisis affecting millions of people...just not in Iran.
Mitch Blood Green
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

Realitybites said:

Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.

Iran would likely respond in kind. The trouble is that they only depend on desalination plants for 1% or less of their water. Our Arab allies rely on desalination for 70%-90% of theirs. So there would be a humanitarian crisis affecting millions of people...just not in Iran.

85-90% of Israel's water comes from desalinization. Then, as you noted, the region has this same issue.

Redbrickbear
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Sam Lowry said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

Realitybites said:

Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.

Iran would likely respond in kind. The trouble is that they only depend on desalination plants for 1% or less of their water. Our Arab allies rely on desalination for 70%-90% of theirs. So there would be a humanitarian crisis affecting millions of people...just not in Iran.


Iran was having serious water problems even before the war.

[Iran is currently facing an unprecedented and severe water crisis, described by experts as a "water bankruptcy" that poses a major threat to its national security and stability. Years of drought, exacerbated by climate change and chronic mismanagement, have led to critically low water levels in reservoirs and depleted groundwater reserves]

https://e360.yale.edu/features/iran-water-drought-dams-qanats

[Iran is looking to relocate the nation's capital because of severe water shortages that make Tehran unsustainable. Experts say the crisis was caused by years of ill-conceived dam projects and overpumping that destroyed a centuries-old system for tapping underground reserves. ]
By Fred Pearce December 18, 2025

Mitch Blood Green
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Redbrickbear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

Realitybites said:

Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.

Iran would likely respond in kind. The trouble is that they only depend on desalination plants for 1% or less of their water. Our Arab allies rely on desalination for 70%-90% of theirs. So there would be a humanitarian crisis affecting millions of people...just not in Iran.


Iran was having serious water problems even before the war.

[Iran is currently facing an unprecedented and severe water crisis, described by experts as a "water bankruptcy" that poses a major threat to its national security and stability. Years of drought, exacerbated by climate change and chronic mismanagement, have led to critically low water levels in reservoirs and depleted groundwater reserves]

https://e360.yale.edu/features/iran-water-drought-dams-qanats

[Iran is looking to relocate the nation's capital because of severe water shortages that make Tehran unsustainable. Experts say the crisis was caused by years of ill-conceived dam projects and overpumping that destroyed a centuries-old system for tapping underground reserves. ]
By Fred Pearce December 18, 2025




The issue isn't Irans water supply. It's the region. Iran has the ability to create catastrophic water shortage issues in the region by responding to an attack on its water.

I think it's ****ty to destroy fresh water in Bahrain, Qatar, etc. but if the US/Israel attack your critical infrastructure? I think that's theirs is fair game.

This is frustrating to me. There was clearly a nonviolent path forward that us and Israel kept walking away from.
J.R.
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That is a war crime! So is blowing up power generation. go Donnie! blow more chit up!
FLBear5630
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KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.

Kuwait was 5-6 months for the Gulf War and was 500k troops.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mitch Blood Green said:

Redbrickbear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

Realitybites said:

Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.

Iran would likely respond in kind. The trouble is that they only depend on desalination plants for 1% or less of their water. Our Arab allies rely on desalination for 70%-90% of theirs. So there would be a humanitarian crisis affecting millions of people...just not in Iran.


Iran was having serious water problems even before the war.

[Iran is currently facing an unprecedented and severe water crisis, described by experts as a "water bankruptcy" that poses a major threat to its national security and stability. Years of drought, exacerbated by climate change and chronic mismanagement, have led to critically low water levels in reservoirs and depleted groundwater reserves]

https://e360.yale.edu/features/iran-water-drought-dams-qanats

[Iran is looking to relocate the nation's capital because of severe water shortages that make Tehran unsustainable. Experts say the crisis was caused by years of ill-conceived dam projects and overpumping that destroyed a centuries-old system for tapping underground reserves. ]
By Fred Pearce December 18, 2025




The issue isn't Irans water supply. It's the region. Iran has the ability to create catastrophic water shortage issues in the region by responding to an attack on its water.

I think it's ****ty to destroy fresh water in Bahrain, Qatar, etc. but if the US/Israel attack your critical infrastructure? I think that's theirs is fair game.

This is frustrating to me. There was clearly a nonviolent path forward that us and Israel kept walking away from.


I understand the concern...but If they play that game it will be worse for Iran than it will be for Israel

Because of course Iran was having water problems even during peace time.

Israel also has the tech and the money to fix their infrastructure and bring in more potable water.

Expensive and a massive pain....but Israel and the Arab Gulf States can do it.

Iran is in a FAR worse situation.

PS

If Iran decides its going to go completely rouge and attach international shipping, desalination plants that other regional countries rely on for water, try and crippler the regions water, world trade, and attack anyone and everyone....even countries that did NOT attack them.

Then Iran is going to get the Iraq 1991 treatment....a international coalition led by the US will invade and completely crush their Islamist government.

If Iran's leaders wanna end up like Saddam or Mussolini hanging from a rope....then I guess they should continue on the path they are on....because that will be what happens if you lash out at everyone and everything and create an endless list of enemies (many with vast wealth and vast military resources)
Redbrickbear
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FLBear5630 said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.

Kuwait was 5-6 months for the Gulf War and was 500k troops.


Yea...but we have to remember the US and its allies were looking for huge force levels.

Iraq had a million man army and lots of analysists felt it was a top 4-5 army in the world. Many thought years of war in Iran had made it strong and battle hardened....and it had 6,000 tanks, 4,000 pieces of artillery and 62+ divisions.

Yet a single American Corp. basically crushed them.....

[The VII Corps was tasked with the "offensive punch" needed to destroy the Republican Guard, Iraq's most capable military units.
  • Decisive Engagements: They fought the war's most intense tank battles, including the Battle of 73 Easting and the Battle of Medina Ridge.
  • Enemy Destruction: During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces. ]
PS

Not that we want to or should invade....but a single America Corp. backed up by Air power could be in Tehran pretty quickly.

Iranian ground troops can not stop American firepower.

It would be the Iraq wars all over again.....

By the end of the 1st Iraq war the enemy forces had been destroyed in a shocking way.
  • Tanks: Over 3,000 out of an estimated 4,030 tanks were destroyed or captured.
  • Artillery: At least 1,005 of 3,110 artillery pieces were neutralized.
  • Armored Vehicles: Roughly 962 to 1,400 armored personnel carriers (APCs) were lost.
  • Divisions: 42 Iraqi divisions were either completely destroyed or rendered "combat ineffective"]
While the coalition lost only 400 people and 31 tanks.....
boognish_bear
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Regime change not on the menu. Not sure why diminishing nuclear capabilities wasn't mentioned.

boognish_bear
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Warfare has obviously changed significantly.

I know in a war you are trying to shoot and kill the soldiers on the other side...but something about seeing these drones gunning down humans on the battlefield feels unethical.

Danielsjackson114
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That has to be one of the most frightening things ever lol
FLBear5630
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Redbrickbear said:

FLBear5630 said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.

Kuwait was 5-6 months for the Gulf War and was 500k troops.


Yea...but we have to remember the US and its allies were looking for huge force levels.

Iraq had a million man army and lots of analysists felt it was a top 4-5 army in the world. Many thought years of war in Iran had made it strong and battle hardened....and it had 6,000 tanks, 4,000 pieces of artillery and 62+ divisions.

Yet a single American Corp. basically crushed them.....

[The VII Corps was tasked with the "offensive punch" needed to destroy the Republican Guard, Iraq's most capable military units.
  • Decisive Engagements: They fought the war's most intense tank battles, including the Battle of 73 Easting and the Battle of Medina Ridge.
  • Enemy Destruction: During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces. ]
PS

Not that we want to or should invade....but a single America Corp. backed up by Air power could be in Tehran pretty quickly.

Iranian ground troops can not stop American firepower.

It would be the Iraq wars all over again.....

By the end of the 1st Iraq war the enemy forces had been destroyed in a shocking way.
  • Tanks: Over 3,000 out of an estimated 4,030 tanks were destroyed or captured.
  • Artillery: At least 1,005 of 3,110 artillery pieces were neutralized.
  • Armored Vehicles: Roughly 962 to 1,400 armored personnel carriers (APCs) were lost.
  • Divisions: 42 Iraqi divisions were either completely destroyed or rendered "combat ineffective"]
While the coalition lost only 400 people and 31 tanks.....


I was actually making it to show that it could be done much quicker. But, on your analysis...

Gulf War (Iraq 1) we were part of a huge coalition to remove Iraq from Kuwait, nothing more. We set up no-fly zones and called it a day. I remember the orders coming back do not go into Iraq.

We fought on the sands, which played well to our combined arms training and manuever centric tactics. Iran is not Kuwait or Iraq. It is mountainous. It will be closer to Korea.

You forget about the Iraq War 2 was we bypassed the Cities to get Sadaam. Sadaam falls, everything falls. Even with a direct mission that strategy created a nightmare later. See Fallujah. Iran has a well entrenched Government that is layers deep.

Can 1 Corps do it? I believe it will be a slog, as Korea was a slog. We outclassed the Chinese in tech, they had numbers. Iran has numbers. I don't think you are looking at 1 month and Tehran is done. But, you may be right, I am not really up on Iranian armor.

I do know we did all this other **** for 50 years for a reason...

I appreciate the discussion. Nice to at least discuss things.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

FLBear5630 said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.

Kuwait was 5-6 months for the Gulf War and was 500k troops.


Yea...but we have to remember the US and its allies were looking for huge force levels.

Iraq had a million man army and lots of analysists felt it was a top 4-5 army in the world. Many thought years of war in Iran had made it strong and battle hardened....and it had 6,000 tanks, 4,000 pieces of artillery and 62+ divisions.

Yet a single American Corp. basically crushed them.....

[The VII Corps was tasked with the "offensive punch" needed to destroy the Republican Guard, Iraq's most capable military units.
  • Decisive Engagements: They fought the war's most intense tank battles, including the Battle of 73 Easting and the Battle of Medina Ridge.
  • Enemy Destruction: During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces. ]
PS

Not that we want to or should invade....but a single America Corp. backed up by Air power could be in Tehran pretty quickly.

Iranian ground troops can not stop American firepower.

It would be the Iraq wars all over again.....

By the end of the 1st Iraq war the enemy forces had been destroyed in a shocking way.
  • Tanks: Over 3,000 out of an estimated 4,030 tanks were destroyed or captured.
  • Artillery: At least 1,005 of 3,110 artillery pieces were neutralized.
  • Armored Vehicles: Roughly 962 to 1,400 armored personnel carriers (APCs) were lost.
  • Divisions: 42 Iraqi divisions were either completely destroyed or rendered "combat ineffective"]
While the coalition lost only 400 people and 31 tanks.....


I was actually making it to show that it could be done much quicker. But, on your analysis...

Gulf War (Iraq 1) we were part of a huge coalition to remove Iraq from Kuwait, nothing more. We set up no-fly zones and called it a day. I remember the orders coming back do not go into Iraq.

We fought on the sands, which played well to our combined arms training and manuever centric tactics. Iran is not Kuwait or Iraq. It is mountainous. It will be closer to Korea.

You forget about the Iraq War 2 was we bypassed the Cities to get Sadaam. Sadaam falls, everything falls. Even with a direct mission that strategy created a nightmare later. See Fallujah. Iran has a well entrenched Government that is layers deep.

Can 1 Corps do it? I believe it will be a slog, as Korea was a slog. We outclassed the Chinese in tech, they had numbers. Iran has numbers. I don't think you are looking at 1 month and Tehran is done. But, you may be right, I am not really up on Iranian armor.

I do know we did all this other **** for 50 years for a reason...

I appreciate the discussion. Nice to at least discuss things.


I honestly don't know

But they can sure as hell do a lot of damage in only 100 hours.... [During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces.]

For reference Iran today...

Has about 350,000 men in its army. And about 2,675 tanks. 550 aircraft. And had a navy of 103 ships (now almost all gone). The Revolutionary Guard has about 200,000 men.

So lets go high and say they have 600,000 soldiers right now ready for active combat.

Can go higher will reserves and drafting men...but they would be unexperienced or untrained.

I think a single US Corp with American and Israeli air support can crush that force.....taking out its tanks and armored vehicles and killing its units if they dare come out of from hiding among civilians.

The real question is probably not "Can the USA crush the Iranian military and get to Tehran with a Corp or two"...but "Once we get to Tehran will the people rise up and overthrow the government or do we have a quagmire on our hands?"
303Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

FLBear5630 said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.

Kuwait was 5-6 months for the Gulf War and was 500k troops.


Yea...but we have to remember the US and its allies were looking for huge force levels.

Iraq had a million man army and lots of analysists felt it was a top 4-5 army in the world. Many thought years of war in Iran had made it strong and battle hardened....and it had 6,000 tanks, 4,000 pieces of artillery and 62+ divisions.

Yet a single American Corp. basically crushed them.....

[The VII Corps was tasked with the "offensive punch" needed to destroy the Republican Guard, Iraq's most capable military units.
  • Decisive Engagements: They fought the war's most intense tank battles, including the Battle of 73 Easting and the Battle of Medina Ridge.
  • Enemy Destruction: During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces. ]
PS

Not that we want to or should invade....but a single America Corp. backed up by Air power could be in Tehran pretty quickly.

Iranian ground troops can not stop American firepower.

It would be the Iraq wars all over again.....

By the end of the 1st Iraq war the enemy forces had been destroyed in a shocking way.
  • Tanks: Over 3,000 out of an estimated 4,030 tanks were destroyed or captured.
  • Artillery: At least 1,005 of 3,110 artillery pieces were neutralized.
  • Armored Vehicles: Roughly 962 to 1,400 armored personnel carriers (APCs) were lost.
  • Divisions: 42 Iraqi divisions were either completely destroyed or rendered "combat ineffective"]
While the coalition lost only 400 people and 31 tanks.....


I was actually making it to show that it could be done much quicker. But, on your analysis...

Gulf War (Iraq 1) we were part of a huge coalition to remove Iraq from Kuwait, nothing more. We set up no-fly zones and called it a day. I remember the orders coming back do not go into Iraq.

We fought on the sands, which played well to our combined arms training and manuever centric tactics. Iran is not Kuwait or Iraq. It is mountainous. It will be closer to Korea.

You forget about the Iraq War 2 was we bypassed the Cities to get Sadaam. Sadaam falls, everything falls. Even with a direct mission that strategy created a nightmare later. See Fallujah. Iran has a well entrenched Government that is layers deep.

Can 1 Corps do it? I believe it will be a slog, as Korea was a slog. We outclassed the Chinese in tech, they had numbers. Iran has numbers. I don't think you are looking at 1 month and Tehran is done. But, you may be right, I am not really up on Iranian armor.

I do know we did all this other **** for 50 years for a reason...

I appreciate the discussion. Nice to at least discuss things.


I honestly don't know

But they can sure as hell do a lot of damage in only 100 hours.... [During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces.]

For reference Iran today...

Has about 350,000 men in its army. And about 2,675 tanks. 550 aircraft. And had a navy of 103 ships (now almost all gone). The Revolutionary Guard has about 200,000 men.

So lets go high and say they have 600,000 soldiers right now ready for active combat.

Can go higher will reserves and drafting men...but they would be unexperienced or untrained.

I think a single US Corp with American and Israeli air support can crush that force.....taking out its tanks and armored vehicles and killing its units if they dare come out of from hiding among civilians.

The real question is probably not "Can the USA crush the Iranian military and get to Tehran with a Corp or two"...but "Once we get to Tehran will the people rise up and overthrow the government or do we have a quagmire on our hands?"

This all assumes engagement in traditional, symmetrical warfare between armies. Not to take away from how dominant the victory was in 1991, but the Iraqi army was largely sitting in open desert, using export variants of soviet equipment that was a full generation or more behind technologically what the US and allies fielded. Setting aside the air dominance, tank for tank the US had better armor, better ammunition (the T72 and its variants had, and still has a very formidable main gun but western ammo is better in most respects), MUCH better optics and night operations abilities. Even the Marine units who had not yet been upgraded to the M1 Abrams and were still in M60s had far superior optics given the upgrade packages mounted.

Any ground war in Iran will be fundamentally different given the terrain and enemy. The advent of drone warfare from Ukraine changes everything even further.

Nothing against the US military, but attacking Iran when we did was a tactical and strategic misstep.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
303Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

FLBear5630 said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.

Kuwait was 5-6 months for the Gulf War and was 500k troops.


Yea...but we have to remember the US and its allies were looking for huge force levels.

Iraq had a million man army and lots of analysists felt it was a top 4-5 army in the world. Many thought years of war in Iran had made it strong and battle hardened....and it had 6,000 tanks, 4,000 pieces of artillery and 62+ divisions.

Yet a single American Corp. basically crushed them.....

[The VII Corps was tasked with the "offensive punch" needed to destroy the Republican Guard, Iraq's most capable military units.
  • Decisive Engagements: They fought the war's most intense tank battles, including the Battle of 73 Easting and the Battle of Medina Ridge.
  • Enemy Destruction: During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces. ]
PS

Not that we want to or should invade....but a single America Corp. backed up by Air power could be in Tehran pretty quickly.

Iranian ground troops can not stop American firepower.

It would be the Iraq wars all over again.....

By the end of the 1st Iraq war the enemy forces had been destroyed in a shocking way.
  • Tanks: Over 3,000 out of an estimated 4,030 tanks were destroyed or captured.
  • Artillery: At least 1,005 of 3,110 artillery pieces were neutralized.
  • Armored Vehicles: Roughly 962 to 1,400 armored personnel carriers (APCs) were lost.
  • Divisions: 42 Iraqi divisions were either completely destroyed or rendered "combat ineffective"]
While the coalition lost only 400 people and 31 tanks.....


I was actually making it to show that it could be done much quicker. But, on your analysis...

Gulf War (Iraq 1) we were part of a huge coalition to remove Iraq from Kuwait, nothing more. We set up no-fly zones and called it a day. I remember the orders coming back do not go into Iraq.

We fought on the sands, which played well to our combined arms training and manuever centric tactics. Iran is not Kuwait or Iraq. It is mountainous. It will be closer to Korea.

You forget about the Iraq War 2 was we bypassed the Cities to get Sadaam. Sadaam falls, everything falls. Even with a direct mission that strategy created a nightmare later. See Fallujah. Iran has a well entrenched Government that is layers deep.

Can 1 Corps do it? I believe it will be a slog, as Korea was a slog. We outclassed the Chinese in tech, they had numbers. Iran has numbers. I don't think you are looking at 1 month and Tehran is done. But, you may be right, I am not really up on Iranian armor.

I do know we did all this other **** for 50 years for a reason...

I appreciate the discussion. Nice to at least discuss things.


I honestly don't know

But they can sure as hell do a lot of damage in only 100 hours.... [During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces.]

For reference Iran today...

Has about 350,000 men in its army. And about 2,675 tanks. 550 aircraft. And had a navy of 103 ships (now almost all gone). The Revolutionary Guard has about 200,000 men.

So lets go high and say they have 600,000 soldiers right now ready for active combat.

Can go higher will reserves and drafting men...but they would be unexperienced or untrained.

I think a single US Corp with American and Israeli air support can crush that force.....taking out its tanks and armored vehicles and killing its units if they dare come out of from hiding among civilians.

The real question is probably not "Can the USA crush the Iranian military and get to Tehran with a Corp or two"...but "Once we get to Tehran will the people rise up and overthrow the government or do we have a quagmire on our hands?"

This all assumes engagement in traditional, symmetrical warfare between armies. Not to take away from how dominant the victory was in 1991, but the Iraqi army was largely sitting in open desert, using export variants of soviet equipment that was a full generation or more behind technologically what the US and allies fielded. Setting aside the air dominance, tank for tank the US had better armor, better ammunition (the T72 and its variants had, and still has a very formidable main gun but western ammo is better in most respects), MUCH better optics and night operations abilities. Even the Marine units who had not yet been upgraded to the M1 Abrams and were still in M60s had far superior optics given the upgrade packages mounted.

Any ground war in Iran will be fundamentally different given the terrain and enemy. The advent of drone warfare from Ukraine changes everything even further.

Nothing against the US military, but attacking Iran when we did was a tactical and strategic misstep.


Iran mostly uses Soviet designed tanks and artillery

[Iran's tank arsenal....primarily composed of Soviet-era T-72s, modernized older types like the M60A1, and indigenous designs like the Karrar and Zulfiqar.]

They have put most of their money into Missiles

[Iran has heavily prioritized investment in its missile and drone programs over other sectors, particularly in the context of increasing military expenditures and regional conflict...

Iran has developed one of the largest missile arsenals in the Middle East, focusing on indigenous production of short-range ballistic missiles, anti-ship missiles, and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) to project power and deter attacks]


And the Armed forces is of course a classic case of the Ideological party fighting force ( The Revolutionary Guard Corp.) getting the best stuff....while the Army is not as prioritized since its not as important to the Regime and its security.

I think the USA takes out Iran military fairly easily....as you said a traditional fight and Iran is cooked...so they probably go drone and guerrilla style and try and bleed an American occupation force.
Mitch Blood Green
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Redbrickbear said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

Redbrickbear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mitch Blood Green said:

Realitybites said:

Monday AM Update:

Summary

  • Iran rejects 'excessive, illogical' US demands while Trump mentions 'progress' with a 'more reasonable regime'. Trump again threatens to destroy Iran energy sites and Kharg Island.
  • White House seriously considering ground operation to seize Iran's enriched uranium stockpile but also wants Tehran to negotiate handing it over willingly.
  • Bazan oil refinery in Israel's northern city of Haifa is on fire after a second apparent Iranian missile strike of the war.
  • Iran accuses Israel of more 'false flags' - after Kuwait water desalination plant hit.
Iran has once again stated that it has rejected the latest "US demands" as "excessive and illogical" according to state Tasnim, also confirming that it did not participate in the weekend Pakistan-hosted summit attended by the foreign ministers of Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

"We have never had any direct negotiations with the United States. What has been raised are messages received through intermediaries indicating the US desire to negotiate," Foreign Ministry Spokesman Esmail Baghaei said in a press conference Monday.

Markets are green on the Monday morning hopium tweet. Will be red later in the week. Oil continues to go up.


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.

Iran would likely respond in kind. The trouble is that they only depend on desalination plants for 1% or less of their water. Our Arab allies rely on desalination for 70%-90% of theirs. So there would be a humanitarian crisis affecting millions of people...just not in Iran.


Iran was having serious water problems even before the war.

[Iran is currently facing an unprecedented and severe water crisis, described by experts as a "water bankruptcy" that poses a major threat to its national security and stability. Years of drought, exacerbated by climate change and chronic mismanagement, have led to critically low water levels in reservoirs and depleted groundwater reserves]

https://e360.yale.edu/features/iran-water-drought-dams-qanats

[Iran is looking to relocate the nation's capital because of severe water shortages that make Tehran unsustainable. Experts say the crisis was caused by years of ill-conceived dam projects and overpumping that destroyed a centuries-old system for tapping underground reserves. ]
By Fred Pearce December 18, 2025




The issue isn't Irans water supply. It's the region. Iran has the ability to create catastrophic water shortage issues in the region by responding to an attack on its water.

I think it's ****ty to destroy fresh water in Bahrain, Qatar, etc. but if the US/Israel attack your critical infrastructure? I think that's theirs is fair game.

This is frustrating to me. There was clearly a nonviolent path forward that us and Israel kept walking away from.


I understand the concern...but If they play that game it will be worse for Iran than it will be for Israel

Because of course Iran was having water problems even during peace time.

Israel also has the tech and the money to fix their infrastructure and bring in more potable water.

Expensive and a massive pain....but Israel and the Arab Gulf States can do it.

Iran is in a FAR worse situation.

PS

If Iran decides its going to go completely rouge and attach international shipping, desalination plants that other regional countries rely on for water, try and crippler the regions water, world trade, and attack anyone and everyone....even countries that did NOT attack them.

Then Iran is going to get the Iraq 1991 treatment....a international coalition led by the US will invade and completely crush their Islamist government.

If Iran's leaders wanna end up like Saddam or Mussolini hanging from a rope....then I guess they should continue on the path they are on....because that will be what happens if you lash out at everyone and everything and create an endless list of enemies (many with vast wealth and vast military resources)

I don't think there is a thing called "worse." It's all just different levels of pain. It's like dating a crazy girl. You kick her out of your home and change the locks. She then puts sugar in your tank, or she sends a letter to your boss saying you're a registered sex offender. She can't go toe to toe but she can create havoc.
303Bear
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Redbrickbear said:

303Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

FLBear5630 said:

KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

KaiBear said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

FLBear5630 said:

Redbrickbear said:

The_barBEARian said:

When your "greatest ally" is actually your worst enemy...




I can't say if this type of ground invasion would be good or bad (my gut says stay out of land wars in the Middle East)

But this would be less of a "Jews sending Americans to fight for them" and more of a "Jewish foot soldiers inside a Muslim country would inflame things" issue

An American invasion of part or all of Iran would be likely to be more successful at getting local support if its only American troops (no Israelis)

In Gulf War I and Gulf War II it was a specific policy of America to ask Israel NOT to come along on the alliance attack on Iraq. Because it would inflame local tensions/resistance and would cause fractures with our local Arab/middle eastern allies

At the end of the day Muslims in the Middle East are less likely to resist Americans or at least acquiesce to sort term occupation by Americans (for lots of reasons) than they are to Israelis/jews




Sorry BS, Saudi and Company pony up. Let the Arabs be the ground force. We handled the rest.

50,000 U.S troops now deployed to the Middle East. This is not good.

To put this in perspective , 2,459 American lives were lost in our 20 year war with Afghanistan. Think about this.


Most of those 50,000 have been deployed in the region for many years.

Would takes several months to deploy the necessary combat troops, heavy armor and supplies to conduct a serious ground war.



Try several years.


Incorrect

The buildup prior to our invasion of Iraq did not remotely require 'several' years.

Kuwait was 5-6 months for the Gulf War and was 500k troops.


Yea...but we have to remember the US and its allies were looking for huge force levels.

Iraq had a million man army and lots of analysists felt it was a top 4-5 army in the world. Many thought years of war in Iran had made it strong and battle hardened....and it had 6,000 tanks, 4,000 pieces of artillery and 62+ divisions.

Yet a single American Corp. basically crushed them.....

[The VII Corps was tasked with the "offensive punch" needed to destroy the Republican Guard, Iraq's most capable military units.
  • Decisive Engagements: They fought the war's most intense tank battles, including the Battle of 73 Easting and the Battle of Medina Ridge.
  • Enemy Destruction: During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces. ]
PS

Not that we want to or should invade....but a single America Corp. backed up by Air power could be in Tehran pretty quickly.

Iranian ground troops can not stop American firepower.

It would be the Iraq wars all over again.....

By the end of the 1st Iraq war the enemy forces had been destroyed in a shocking way.
  • Tanks: Over 3,000 out of an estimated 4,030 tanks were destroyed or captured.
  • Artillery: At least 1,005 of 3,110 artillery pieces were neutralized.
  • Armored Vehicles: Roughly 962 to 1,400 armored personnel carriers (APCs) were lost.
  • Divisions: 42 Iraqi divisions were either completely destroyed or rendered "combat ineffective"]
While the coalition lost only 400 people and 31 tanks.....


I was actually making it to show that it could be done much quicker. But, on your analysis...

Gulf War (Iraq 1) we were part of a huge coalition to remove Iraq from Kuwait, nothing more. We set up no-fly zones and called it a day. I remember the orders coming back do not go into Iraq.

We fought on the sands, which played well to our combined arms training and manuever centric tactics. Iran is not Kuwait or Iraq. It is mountainous. It will be closer to Korea.

You forget about the Iraq War 2 was we bypassed the Cities to get Sadaam. Sadaam falls, everything falls. Even with a direct mission that strategy created a nightmare later. See Fallujah. Iran has a well entrenched Government that is layers deep.

Can 1 Corps do it? I believe it will be a slog, as Korea was a slog. We outclassed the Chinese in tech, they had numbers. Iran has numbers. I don't think you are looking at 1 month and Tehran is done. But, you may be right, I am not really up on Iranian armor.

I do know we did all this other **** for 50 years for a reason...

I appreciate the discussion. Nice to at least discuss things.


I honestly don't know

But they can sure as hell do a lot of damage in only 100 hours.... [During the 100-hour war, the VII Corps destroyed nearly 1,350 Iraqi tanks, 1,224 armored carriers, and over 280 artillery pieces.]

For reference Iran today...

Has about 350,000 men in its army. And about 2,675 tanks. 550 aircraft. And had a navy of 103 ships (now almost all gone). The Revolutionary Guard has about 200,000 men.

So lets go high and say they have 600,000 soldiers right now ready for active combat.

Can go higher will reserves and drafting men...but they would be unexperienced or untrained.

I think a single US Corp with American and Israeli air support can crush that force.....taking out its tanks and armored vehicles and killing its units if they dare come out of from hiding among civilians.

The real question is probably not "Can the USA crush the Iranian military and get to Tehran with a Corp or two"...but "Once we get to Tehran will the people rise up and overthrow the government or do we have a quagmire on our hands?"

This all assumes engagement in traditional, symmetrical warfare between armies. Not to take away from how dominant the victory was in 1991, but the Iraqi army was largely sitting in open desert, using export variants of soviet equipment that was a full generation or more behind technologically what the US and allies fielded. Setting aside the air dominance, tank for tank the US had better armor, better ammunition (the T72 and its variants had, and still has a very formidable main gun but western ammo is better in most respects), MUCH better optics and night operations abilities. Even the Marine units who had not yet been upgraded to the M1 Abrams and were still in M60s had far superior optics given the upgrade packages mounted.

Any ground war in Iran will be fundamentally different given the terrain and enemy. The advent of drone warfare from Ukraine changes everything even further.

Nothing against the US military, but attacking Iran when we did was a tactical and strategic misstep.


Iran mostly uses Soviet designed tanks and artillery

[Iran's tank arsenal....primarily composed of Soviet-era T-72s, modernized older types like the M60A1, and indigenous designs like the Karrar and Zulfiqar.]

They have put most of their money into Missiles

[Iran has heavily prioritized investment in its missile and drone programs over other sectors, particularly in the context of increasing military expenditures and regional conflict...

Iran has developed one of the largest missile arsenals in the Middle East, focusing on indigenous production of short-range ballistic missiles, anti-ship missiles, and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) to project power and deter attacks]


And the Armed forces is of course a classic case of the Ideological party fighting force ( The Revolutionary Guard Corp.) getting the best stuff....while the Army is not as prioritized since its not as important to the Regime and its security.

I think the USA takes out Iran military fairly easily....as you said a traditional fight and Iran is cooked...so they probably go drone and guerrilla style and try and bleed an American occupation force.

There have been significant upgrade packages produced for T-72s since the Gulf War. In any event, I think the Gulf War is likely the last major tank-on-tank battles the world will see. Despite thousands of tanks in theatre, there have been limited armor battles and no sizeable tank battles in Ukraine.

I think the bolded is the most likely outcome. It seems like small units with drones could cause plenty of casualties / annoyance for any ground forces we would land.
Realitybites
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KaiBear said:

Mitch Blood Green said:


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.


Long overdue.

Those desalination plants should have been destroyed on Day One.


And what happens when the Iranians take out the desalination plants in the GCC and Israel, both of whom rely far more on desalination than Iran? There's a very good reason they weren't destroyed on Day One.
KaiBear
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Realitybites said:

KaiBear said:

Mitch Blood Green said:


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.


Long overdue.

Those desalination plants should have been destroyed on Day One.


And what happens when the Iranians take out the desalination plants in the GCC and Israel, both of whom rely far more on desalination than Iran? There's a very good reason they weren't destroyed on Day One.


Assumptions

We have total air supremacy.

Iran does not.



boognish_bear
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boognish_bear
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Redbrickbear
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Realitybites said:

KaiBear said:

Mitch Blood Green said:


We are now threatening to blow up Iran's desalination plants. Humanitarian crisis on the way.


Long overdue.

Those desalination plants should have been destroyed on Day One.


And what happens when the Iranians take out the desalination plants in the GCC and Israel, both of whom rely far more on desalination than Iran? There's a very good reason they weren't destroyed on Day One.


Bad things....but in the end Israel and the Gulf Arab states are rich.

They can afford to repair their facilities and pay high costs to import potable water if needed.

We can all be assured that Israel takes their security very very seriously... and no doubt has a plan for the eventuality where a foe attacks their water supply.

I am sure they have reserves ready and water rationing plans in place until the desalination plants can be repaired or replaced.

Iran is already in water crisis before the war...no allies to speak of...and can't afford it.

[Iran has a low GDP relative to its population, regional potential, and resource wealth, frequently classified as a lower-middle-income country with a struggling, stagnant economy. As of 2024-2025, the economy is characterized by high inflation, currency devaluation, and falling living standards]
boognish_bear
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