New Ian McCaw Deposition

214,198 Views | 1423 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by 57Bear
Osodecentx
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NoBSU said:

Osodecentx said:

Keyser Soze said:

Osodecentx said:

Keyser Soze said:

The regents definitely wrote it. That has never been in question.

Now what specifically in the FofF do you think is inaccurate and why?

I answered your question - can you or will you answer mine?
Can I read the PH report in full? Can I read a transcript of Briles' rebuttal? Can I read the depositions Baylor won't release?

How can I fully answer when all I have is one side?

BTW, we were led to believe that the FoF were written by PH.

I am asking what specifically you think is not accurate in the FofF? You seem to be cowering at thought of having to do so. Why?

You seem very good at asking questions but incapable of answering one,

Here is the link again

https://www.baylor.edu/thefacts/doc.php/266596.pdf


Keyser, I have the full story. I know what happened.

Prove I'm incorrect.

PS You can't see what I have or ask any questions. You just get to read the following summary: Briles is innocent. Starr was scapegoated.

Here is a link to refresh your memory: #BORBS.repeatoverandover

Can you not understand alumni reluctance to accept the BOR line of crap

You are digging the hole deeper
LOL! Full story. Cool. So your basic message is trust me?
Same as regents

Trust me.

Here is my Finding of Facts: Briles was railroaded.

You can't read the full report, just the sentence above.
YoakDaddy
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Keyser Soze said:

57Bear said:

Keyser Soze said:


There are requirements that the Board Members must be made up of certain percentages of Christians, Baptist, Texas residents, and alumni. I
Those requirements mean nothing - the bor can do what it wants to, any time it wants to, and without answering to anybody.
And how do you know this?

I know you are implying that they may use what ever subjective criteria they so choose. That would be very "not good" - and I would agree with you 100% - but how do you know? How do you know "board approval" of a candidate is not what I suggested it might be?





Well....the sex toy salesman did get an unprecedented 4th term on the board...pretty sure terms and timing are outlined.
57Bear
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Keyser Soze said:

57Bear said:


Exactly! That's the nature of the problem that Herb Reynolds, Ph.D. created for Baylor.

How do you know "board approval" of a candidate IS what you suggested it might be? How do you know that it will remain unchanged beyond the next meeting of the bor?

I don't know 57 - that is why I am asking. I think we all don't know and it would be a good thing to find out.

There is a broad spectrum of what "board approval" of a candidate could mean. I think there are a good number of people assuming the most nefarious of the possibilities without really knowing what the right answer is.


The only thing that the bor seems to be bound by is the oath of secrecy regarding all things that take place under the Cone of Silence.

Is there any limit to what changes the board can make?

I do believe that there may be some restrictions regarding access to the endowment.
Chuckroast
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Keyser Soze said:

You are so out of touch - 99.9% of those who know of this have his position. You just live in the incestuous .1% that affirms every wacky theory each of you gives the other.


By controlling the evidence and the message and by firing only CAB, the BOR was able to create the narrative that the public arena accepted . . . that Briles was the primary problem and that the BOR had the fortitude and impeccable morality to let him go in spite of the success of our football program.

The BOR and school come off smelling like a rose with that narrative out there for public consumption. Of course many Baylor fans just want to move on . . . after all, a few overpaid coaches are the only casualties in this whole mess and the school can get right back to winning championships. Why demand full transparency when it will only hurt the school? Even if there was equal fault to go around, why poke the bear (pun intended) when the guys you like (the BOR) are left standing, and the guys you don't like (CAB and his so called thug players) have taken the fall. Of course Thee's position is simply to let bygones be bygones.

The facts don't tell such a simple story, and it sounds like there are a lot more unknown ones out there. Let's just hope that justice (whatever it is) prevails.
YoakDaddy
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Keyser Soze said:

You clearly live inside a bubble - go to Texas Ags - Shaggy anywhere outside and See what they think to get some perspective - they think the absolute worst possible of Briles. Briles is a scapegoat is an absurdly small number of the whole.

I thought I'd seen it all but TexAgs and Shaggy? Really? That's some weak shlt right there. Please tell me the BOFR's argument isn't....well, 2 football fansites say it's true so it must be? I live and travel outside of the bubble. I get 1 of 3 responses to our mess if it ever comes up...1) I guess y'all's football team is back down where it belongs; 2) Man, you Baptists can really screw up a good thing; and 3)I'd never send my kids to school there because y'all been covering up assaults to keep the wholesome brand up. Y'all are just like everyone else.
LOL fansites!
Keyser Soze
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Chuckroast said:

Keyser Soze said:

You are so out of touch - 99.9% of those who know of this have his position. You just live in the incestuous .1% that affirms every wacky theory each of you gives the other.


By controlling the evidence and the message and by firing only CAB, the BOR was able to create the narrative that the public arena accepted . . . that Briles was the primary problem and that the BOR had the fortitude and impeccable morality to let him go in spite of the success of our football program.

The BOR and school come off smelling like a rose with that narrative out there for public consumption. Of course many Baylor fans just want to move on . . . after all, a few overpaid coaches are the only casualties in this whole mess and the school can get right back to winning championships. Why demand full transparency when it will only hurt the school? Even if there was equal fault to go around, why poke the bear (pun intended) when the guys you like (the BOR) are left standing, and the guys you don't like (CAB and his so called thug players) have taken the fall. Of course Thee's position is simply to let bygones be bygones.

The facts don't tell such a simple story, and it sounds like there are a lot more unknown ones out there. Let's just hope that justice (whatever it is) prevails.
Do you even know what the post you are quoting is about?

NoBSU
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YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

You clearly live inside a bubble - go to Texas Ags - Shaggy anywhere outside and See what they think to get some perspective - they think the absolute worst possible of Briles. Briles is a scapegoat is an absurdly small number of the whole.

I thought I'd seen it all but TexAgs and Shaggy? Really? That's some weak shlt right there. Please tell me the BOFR's argument isn't....well, 2 football fansites say it's true so it must be? I live and travel outside of the bubble. I get 1 of 3 responses to our mess if it ever comes up...1) I guess y'all's football team is back down where it belongs; 2) Man, you Baptists can really screw up a good thing; and 3)I'd never send my kids to school there because y'all been covering up assaults to keep the wholesome brand up. Y'all are just like everyone else.
LOL fansites!
So the new sicem365 theory is that the regents are reading and reacting to other school websites. I can do better than that.





NoBSU
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Keyser Soze said:

Chuckroast said:

Keyser Soze said:

You are so out of touch - 99.9% of those who know of this have his position. You just live in the incestuous .1% that affirms every wacky theory each of you gives the other.


By controlling the evidence and the message and by firing only CAB, the BOR was able to create the narrative that the public arena accepted . . . that Briles was the primary problem and that the BOR had the fortitude and impeccable morality to let him go in spite of the success of our football program.

The BOR and school come off smelling like a rose with that narrative out there for public consumption. Of course many Baylor fans just want to move on . . . after all, a few overpaid coaches are the only casualties in this whole mess and the school can get right back to winning championships. Why demand full transparency when it will only hurt the school? Even if there was equal fault to go around, why poke the bear (pun intended) when the guys you like (the BOR) are left standing, and the guys you don't like (CAB and his so called thug players) have taken the fall. Of course Thee's position is simply to let bygones be bygones.

The facts don't tell such a simple story, and it sounds like there are a lot more unknown ones out there. Let's just hope that justice (whatever it is) prevails.
Do you even know what the post you are quoting is about?


It really isn't a fair match-up that you are debating a few former players, Hankamer High grads, and a fossil. You need to go back to Malbec. That was more entertaining.
Keyser Soze
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YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

You clearly live inside a bubble - go to Texas Ags - Shaggy anywhere outside and See what they think to get some perspective - they think the absolute worst possible of Briles. Briles is a scapegoat is an absurdly small number of the whole.

I thought I'd seen it all but TexAgs and Shaggy? Really? That's some weak shlt right there. Please tell me the BOFR's argument isn't....well, 2 football fansites say it's true so it must be? I live and travel outside of the bubble. I get 1 of 3 responses to our mess if it ever comes up...1) I guess y'all's football team is back down where it belongs; 2) Man, you Baptists can really screw up a good thing; and 3)I'd never send my kids to school there because y'all been covering up assaults to keep the wholesome brand up. Y'all are just like everyone else.
LOL fansites!
I don't think you are real clear about what I am speaking about.

Go back and read slowly this time. I have been commenting about what the public as a whole believes - not if they are full **** or not. Many of the horns and ags are dumber than rocks on this. My point was simply about numbers and I will say it again to make it more clear. 99.9% of the public who know who Briles and Baylor are think Briles was correctly fired and is not a scapegoat. Got it ? Not that hard.

You don't need to agree with the masses be they Ags, Sooners, or Horns, but if you are not aware of the general consensus. I really think you are but you misunderstood my post.



Chuckroast
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Keyser Soze said:

Chuckroast said:

Keyser Soze said:

You are so out of touch - 99.9% of those who know of this have his position. You just live in the incestuous .1% that affirms every wacky theory each of you gives the other.


By controlling the evidence and the message and by firing only CAB, the BOR was able to create the narrative that the public arena accepted . . . that Briles was the primary problem and that the BOR had the fortitude and impeccable morality to let him go in spite of the success of our football program.

The BOR and school come off smelling like a rose with that narrative out there for public consumption. Of course many Baylor fans just want to move on . . . after all, a few overpaid coaches are the only casualties in this whole mess and the school can get right back to winning championships. Why demand full transparency when it will only hurt the school? Even if there was equal fault to go around, why poke the bear (pun intended) when the guys you like (the BOR) are left standing, and the guys you don't like (CAB and his so called thug players) have taken the fall. Of course Thee's position is simply to let bygones be bygones.

The facts don't tell such a simple story, and it sounds like there are a lot more unknown ones out there. Let's just hope that justice (whatever it is) prevails.
Do you even know what the post you are quoting is about?


of course - doesn't mean I agree with your mathematics. Furthermore, what you fail to realize is that a great many of the people you agree with have simply bought what the media and people like you are telling them without any independent investigation.
Forest Bueller
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Keyser Soze said:

Forest Bueller said:

Keyser Soze said:

You clearly live inside a bubble - go to Texas Ags - Shaggy anywhere outside and See what they think to get some perspective - they think the absolute worst possible of Briles. Briles is a scapegoat is an absurdly small number of the whole.
TexAgs and Shaggy are morons when it comes to evaluating the Baylor situation.

They just run with 53/45/9 or whatever it was, say most of the team were rapist and say that Briles actively covered up over 50 rapes.

They are clueless.

We are not talking about what is accurate - you are off topic

But I do agree many on Texas Ags and Shaggy are / were clueless.


And very angry. The schtick over on shaggy was basically , everyone who didn't disown the University were rape enablers.

Very delusional crowd and angry. Also completely overlooked their own Universities shortcomings relating to campus sexual assault.
By the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved.
YoakDaddy
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Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

You clearly live inside a bubble - go to Texas Ags - Shaggy anywhere outside and See what they think to get some perspective - they think the absolute worst possible of Briles. Briles is a scapegoat is an absurdly small number of the whole.

I thought I'd seen it all but TexAgs and Shaggy? Really? That's some weak shlt right there. Please tell me the BOFR's argument isn't....well, 2 football fansites say it's true so it must be? I live and travel outside of the bubble. I get 1 of 3 responses to our mess if it ever comes up...1) I guess y'all's football team is back down where it belongs; 2) Man, you Baptists can really screw up a good thing; and 3)I'd never send my kids to school there because y'all been covering up assaults to keep the wholesome brand up. Y'all are just like everyone else.
LOL fansites!
I don't think you are real clear about what I am speaking about.

Go back and read slowly this time. I have been commenting about what the public as a whole believes - not if they are full **** or not. Many of the horns and ags are dumber than rocks on this. My point was simply about numbers and I will say it again to make it more clear. 99.9% of the public who know who Briles and Baylor are think Briles was correctly fired and is not a scapegoat. Got it ? Not that hard.

You don't need to agree with the masses be they Ags, Sooners, or Horns, but if you are not aware of the general consensus. I really think you are but you misunderstood my post.



You really don't get out much do you? 99.9% think we are fulked up top to bottom with lots of blame to go around and none have ever said they were glad to see Briles go except for hardcore UT, Sooner, or Frog football fans. I've had 3 guys out in West Texas (at drilling rigs) tell me "Y'all fired Briles for that? Hell, my high school football coach got us out of worse jams with the law."

Saying 99.9% from your talking points memo doesn't make it so LOL. My truck didn't start this afternoon; can I blame 99.9% of that on Briles, too? Pointing to Shaggy and TexAgs is just weak and so sad that I feel bad for you.
Dman
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What Keyser refuses to acknowledge, The same way the public turned on Briles, they will turn on the BoR now that more and more of the truth comes out. They fed the narrative regarding Briles, but now he is no longer here to blame. They are next.

We are laughed at as a university that they are still in a position of power. But per Baghdad Bob/Keyser...they are Baylor's "brightest". Our "best". Our "leaders". Good lord the shame.
Eball
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So you are confirming that the scapegoating worked ?
ScrappyPaws
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Still wrong. It took me one semester (as an adult staffer) to figure out that Baylor didn't want to know and didn't care as long as they didn't know. I was told by my boss "now you're an adult and there's no longer an official rule that would prohibit you from drinking in public but, if certain regents were to see you and know who you are, there's a chance it wouldn't end well".

All the students knew as well. Get busted for drinking by Waco PD, no problem, you deal with the ticket and fine. Get busted by Baylor PD, uh oh, JA is going to find out and you may or may not lose
aid $. I lost one of my best students this way. He got an MIP ticket. First thing I asked him, Baylor or Waco PD. It was Baylor. They didn't kick him out of school but he lost his University scholarship which unfortunately had the same result for him. He had to transfer and graduated with honors from a state school 2 years later. All the while kids get busted by Waco PD for such minor infractions and no one cares. That is the Baylor culture in action. It's a system that rewards deception and has done so for decades.
Eball
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ScrappyPaws said:

Still wrong. It took me one semester (as an adult staffer) to figure out that Baylor didn't want to know and didn't care as long as they didn't know. I was told by my boss "now you're an adult and there's no longer an official rule that would prohibit you from drinking in public but, if certain regents were to see you and know who you are, there's a chance it wouldn't end well".

All the students knew as well. Get busted for drinking by Waco PD, no problem, you deal with the ticket and fine. Get busted by Baylor PD, uh oh, JA is going to find out and you may or may not lose
aid $. I lost one of my best students this way. He got an MIP ticket. First thing I asked him, Baylor or Waco PD. It was Baylor. They didn't kick him out of school but he lost his University scholarship which unfortunately had the same result for him. He had to transfer and graduated with honors from a state school 2 years later. All the while kids get busted by Waco PD for such minor infractions and no one cares. That is the Baylor culture in action. It's a system that rewards deception and has done so for decades.
I guess unless you have never experienced a Christian school...or Baptist religion...you don't really get the hypocrisy.

What do our modern Baptist churches do they say they still support abstinence when it comes to alcohol. Yet in order to reach the younger generation who a vast majority drink socially they take Baptist out of their name and never talk about alcohol or that a core belief is Abstinence. They follow the Bible except that they want to add in that even though the Bible teaches moderation in drinking alcohol it really means abstinence. Even though the majority of their Church either drinks or just does not care they refuse to just adopt the biblical standard for fear of running off the older tithers in their congregation.

BU is not the only school or Church that requires its leaders/ministers/teachers/deacons to sign a no alcohol pledge with a wink and a nod.
ScrappyPaws
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Eball said:

ScrappyPaws said:

Still wrong. It took me one semester (as an adult staffer) to figure out that Baylor didn't want to know and didn't care as long as they didn't know. I was told by my boss "now you're an adult and there's no longer an official rule that would prohibit you from drinking in public but, if certain regents were to see you and know who you are, there's a chance it wouldn't end well".

All the students knew as well. Get busted for drinking by Waco PD, no problem, you deal with the ticket and fine. Get busted by Baylor PD, uh oh, JA is going to find out and you may or may not lose
aid $. I lost one of my best students this way. He got an MIP ticket. First thing I asked him, Baylor or Waco PD. It was Baylor. They didn't kick him out of school but he lost his University scholarship which unfortunately had the same result for him. He had to transfer and graduated with honors from a state school 2 years later. All the while kids get busted by Waco PD for such minor infractions and no one cares. That is the Baylor culture in action. It's a system that rewards deception and has done so for decades.
I guess unless you have never experienced a Christian school...or Baptist religion...you don't really get the hypocrisy.

What do our modern Baptist churches do they say they still support abstinence when it comes to alcohol. Yet in order to reach the younger generation who a vast majority drink socially they take Baptist out of their name and never talk about alcohol or that a core belief is Abstinence. They follow the Bible except that they want to add in that even though the Bible teaches moderation in drinking alcohol it really means abstinence. Even though the majority of their Church either drinks or just does not care they refuse to just adopt the biblical standard for fear of running off the older tithers in their congregation.

BU is not the only school or Church that requires its leaders/ministers/teachers/deacons to sign a no alcohol pledge with a wink and a nod.
.

Exactly, yet we could easily adopt a more tolerant and humane position like Notre Dame. A more transparent position too, without sacrificing our Christian identity! College is supposed to be a learning process, a maturation, but when we try to hold all students (believers and non-believers) to an artificial standard more akin to a Bible college than a tier one University, with penalties beyond a court of law, we miss out on opportunities to have open and real conversations about values and quality choices and instead encourage hiding and judgement.

That's not to say we can't have higher standards or be different. But if casual drinking or consensual sex are grounds for expulsion or loss of aid money, then we will continue to encourage students to hide.
Keyser Soze
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You said "still wrong" when I said 99% think Briles was properly fired - then start talking about drinking on campus that has zero to with that.

You have a serious case of apples and oranges.

Eball
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ScrappyPaws said:

Eball said:

ScrappyPaws said:

Still wrong. It took me one semester (as an adult staffer) to figure out that Baylor didn't want to know and didn't care as long as they didn't know. I was told by my boss "now you're an adult and there's no longer an official rule that would prohibit you from drinking in public but, if certain regents were to see you and know who you are, there's a chance it wouldn't end well".

All the students knew as well. Get busted for drinking by Waco PD, no problem, you deal with the ticket and fine. Get busted by Baylor PD, uh oh, JA is going to find out and you may or may not lose
aid $. I lost one of my best students this way. He got an MIP ticket. First thing I asked him, Baylor or Waco PD. It was Baylor. They didn't kick him out of school but he lost his University scholarship which unfortunately had the same result for him. He had to transfer and graduated with honors from a state school 2 years later. All the while kids get busted by Waco PD for such minor infractions and no one cares. That is the Baylor culture in action. It's a system that rewards deception and has done so for decades.
I guess unless you have never experienced a Christian school...or Baptist religion...you don't really get the hypocrisy.

What do our modern Baptist churches do they say they still support abstinence when it comes to alcohol. Yet in order to reach the younger generation who a vast majority drink socially they take Baptist out of their name and never talk about alcohol or that a core belief is Abstinence. They follow the Bible except that they want to add in that even though the Bible teaches moderation in drinking alcohol it really means abstinence. Even though the majority of their Church either drinks or just does not care they refuse to just adopt the biblical standard for fear of running off the older tithers in their congregation.

BU is not the only school or Church that requires its leaders/ministers/teachers/deacons to sign a no alcohol pledge with a wink and a nod.
.

Exactly, yet we could easily adopt a more tolerant and humane position like Notre Dame. A more transparent position too, without sacrificing our Christian identity! College is supposed to be a learning process, a maturation, but when we try to hold all students (believers and non-believers) to an artificial standard more akin to a Bible college than a tier one University, with penalties beyond a court of law, we miss out on opportunities to have open and real conversations about values and quality choices and instead encourage hiding and judgement.
This is also a explanation for texts from Briles and Ian about keeping players away from JA...it is not a coerup it is a spoken desire that their players go through Waco police and the program itself for punishments because if it is referred to JA then it becomes a potentially bigger problem. It happens at all levels of the University.

Keyser Soze
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ScrappyPaws said:

Eball said:

ScrappyPaws said:

Still wrong. It took me one semester (as an adult staffer) to figure out that Baylor didn't want to know and didn't care as long as they didn't know. I was told by my boss "now you're an adult and there's no longer an official rule that would prohibit you from drinking in public but, if certain regents were to see you and know who you are, there's a chance it wouldn't end well".

All the students knew as well. Get busted for drinking by Waco PD, no problem, you deal with the ticket and fine. Get busted by Baylor PD, uh oh, JA is going to find out and you may or may not lose
aid $. I lost one of my best students this way. He got an MIP ticket. First thing I asked him, Baylor or Waco PD. It was Baylor. They didn't kick him out of school but he lost his University scholarship which unfortunately had the same result for him. He had to transfer and graduated with honors from a state school 2 years later. All the while kids get busted by Waco PD for such minor infractions and no one cares. That is the Baylor culture in action. It's a system that rewards deception and has done so for decades.
I guess unless you have never experienced a Christian school...or Baptist religion...you don't really get the hypocrisy.

What do our modern Baptist churches do they say they still support abstinence when it comes to alcohol. Yet in order to reach the younger generation who a vast majority drink socially they take Baptist out of their name and never talk about alcohol or that a core belief is Abstinence. They follow the Bible except that they want to add in that even though the Bible teaches moderation in drinking alcohol it really means abstinence. Even though the majority of their Church either drinks or just does not care they refuse to just adopt the biblical standard for fear of running off the older tithers in their congregation.

BU is not the only school or Church that requires its leaders/ministers/teachers/deacons to sign a no alcohol pledge with a wink and a nod.
.

Exactly, yet we could easily adopt a more tolerant and humane position like Notre Dame. A more transparent position too, without sacrificing our Christian identity! College is supposed to be a learning process, a maturation, but when we try to hold all students (believers and non-believers) to an artificial standard more akin to a Bible college than a tier one University, with penalties beyond a court of law, we miss out on opportunities to have open and real conversations about values and quality choices and instead encourage hiding and judgement.

That's not to say we can't have higher standards or be different. But if casual drinking or consensual sex are grounds for expulsion or loss of aid money, then we will continue to encourage students to hide.
As to your topic - I agree with most of what you said. In fact the "Notre Dame" model was specifically referred to in discussions. Some of the 105 recommendations implemented called for amnesty for both victims and witnesses that come forward.


Way back in the 80s I had a friend caught smoking pot in the dorm. His punishment was to be kicked out of the dorm. This was in a day where the number of people paying full boat money for a much lower cost tuition was appreciably higher - thus there were not many with scholarship money to take - which I agree sounds draconian for MIP.

Dman
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Keyser

Still waiting....


Simple question. Why in God's name not expect and demand more for our university? Why try so hard to defend at BEST mediocrity or at worst outright ineptitude and incompetence from the BoR? Baylor has access to brilliant minds far more capable than this.

Prove you're not a blatant shill. Simply agree with this non-controversial statement:

"Baylor has access to brilliant options at the BOR not tied to this scandal. Baylor would have been much better off with a clean start from ALL involved. A committee could have been formed, new regents phased in under a controlled transition. Even if no fault Was EVER acknowledged, if for no other reason than to give the school a clean start and to heal. Versus years and years of this controversy and dividing our school""

Agree or not?
ScrappyPaws
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Keyser Soze said:

You said "still wrong" when I said 99% think Briles was properly fired - then start talking about drinking on campus that has zero to with that.

You have a serious case of apples and oranges.




Sorry I should have quoted the post I was replying to. My bad. I was a couple pages back.
drahthaar
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Keyser Soze said:

You clearly live inside a bubble - go to Texas Ags - Shaggy anywhere outside and See what they think to get some perspective - they think the absolute worst possible of Briles. Briles is a scapegoat is an absurdly small number of the whole.
I'm not defending or whitewashing Art but that's a pretty low standard for assessing the man's character and actions. It is no trade secret that horn, sooner, frog and aggy wanted Art gone for competition reasons. There has been some strong suggestion that Art's firing came out of the Big 12 office, fueled by Boren, sooner and horn, with the Big Boys swapping a firing of Art for a school dismissal from the league. We'll never know the facts behind this but other schools' opinions of Briles are to be disregarded from the get-go. The opinions of the coaching profession are another thing altogether and are largely ignored. Those with whom I have spoken have an entirely different take on this deal.

In short, Art is gone and the firing can be justified solely on the grounds of Baylor's personnel management guidelines and the Regents' wishes. That is all that is needed. The question of whether he was the recipient of the bulk of the attention for this disaster is not open for debate: he was. The reason for this seems obvious: successful big-time football wedded to the press which is often intentionally biased coupled with culture's sensitivity/awareness of sexual assault/rape. Perfect storm.

The role the Regents played in all this is what is being fought over or should be fought over: total failure to respond well to claims of sexual assault and rape on the part of the university ultimately falls on the Regents who are charged with setting policy. (I don't know how safety for women can be insured beyond prevention counseling in situations where women's decisions led to such activity of which we are now aware.) I do know that the law has to be adhered to until the law is changed: it doesn't matter if a top-flite lawyer thinks it "unconstitutional". It is the law until the court says it isn't. Starr, The Regents, the COO and Baylor's legal counsel ALL know this, which begs the question(s) of why they led us to this place.

The signal question demanding answers is why the Regents "didn't come clean" to begin with but allowed the bulk of the vitriol to flow down onto Art Briles, destroying his reputation beyond his culpability and wrecking his career. Using one man for an air raid shelter to shield themselves from the incoming rounds seems fearful at best and shirking responsibility at worst. "Protecting the university" is really weak sauce to serve with this **** sandwich they cooked up. When drawing conclusions about Briles and his termination, we'd best recall that there is a lot of conflicting information (depending on the source) and that the opinions of competing schools is completely unreliable.
drahthaar
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ScrappyPaws said:

Eball said:

ScrappyPaws said:

Still wrong. It took me one semester (as an adult staffer) to figure out that Baylor didn't want to know and didn't care as long as they didn't know. I was told by my boss "now you're an adult and there's no longer an official rule that would prohibit you from drinking in public but, if certain regents were to see you and know who you are, there's a chance it wouldn't end well".

All the students knew as well. Get busted for drinking by Waco PD, no problem, you deal with the ticket and fine. Get busted by Baylor PD, uh oh, JA is going to find out and you may or may not lose
aid $. I lost one of my best students this way. He got an MIP ticket. First thing I asked him, Baylor or Waco PD. It was Baylor. They didn't kick him out of school but he lost his University scholarship which unfortunately had the same result for him. He had to transfer and graduated with honors from a state school 2 years later. All the while kids get busted by Waco PD for such minor infractions and no one cares. That is the Baylor culture in action. It's a system that rewards deception and has done so for decades.
I guess unless you have never experienced a Christian school...or Baptist religion...you don't really get the hypocrisy.

What do our modern Baptist churches do they say they still support abstinence when it comes to alcohol. Yet in order to reach the younger generation who a vast majority drink socially they take Baptist out of their name and never talk about alcohol or that a core belief is Abstinence. They follow the Bible except that they want to add in that even though the Bible teaches moderation in drinking alcohol it really means abstinence. Even though the majority of their Church either drinks or just does not care they refuse to just adopt the biblical standard for fear of running off the older tithers in their congregation.

BU is not the only school or Church that requires its leaders/ministers/teachers/deacons to sign a no alcohol pledge with a wink and a nod.
.

Exactly, yet we could easily adopt a more tolerant and humane position like Notre Dame. A more transparent position too, without sacrificing our Christian identity! College is supposed to be a learning process, a maturation, but when we try to hold all students (believers and non-believers) to an artificial standard more akin to a Bible college than a tier one University, with penalties beyond a court of law, we miss out on opportunities to have open and real conversations about values and quality choices and instead encourage hiding and judgement.

That's not to say we can't have higher standards or be different. But if casual drinking or consensual sex are grounds for expulsion or loss of aid money, then we will continue to encourage students to hide.

Yessir!
Keyser Soze
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Agree with most except the last paragraph.

No doubt the regents could have corrected many bad press stories. The flip side of that coin is Briles could have stopped Baylor's civil war with a little sincere mea culpa - something someone with a $15 mil parting gift might have done. Things escalate and eventually things the regents were very content to keep quiet about Briles got released.

George Truett
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Chuckroast said:

Keyser Soze said:

You are so out of touch - 99.9% of those who know of this have his position. You just live in the incestuous .1% that affirms every wacky theory each of you gives the other.


By controlling the evidence and the message and by firing only CAB, the BOR was able to create the narrative that the public arena accepted . . . that Briles was the primary problem and that the BOR had the fortitude and impeccable morality to let him go in spite of the success of our football program.

The BOR and school come off smelling like a rose with that narrative out there for public consumption. Of course many Baylor fans just want to move on . . . after all, a few overpaid coaches are the only casualties in this whole mess and the school can get right back to winning championships. Why demand full transparency when it will only hurt the school? Even if there was equal fault to go around, why poke the bear (pun intended) when the guys you like (the BOR) are left standing, and the guys you don't like (CAB and his so called thug players) have taken the fall. Of course Thee's position is simply to let bygones be bygones.

The facts don't tell such a simple story, and it sounds like there are a lot more unknown ones out there. Let's just hope that justice (whatever it is) prevails.
This is wrong on more levels than I can count.

First, CAB wasn't the only one fired.

Ken Starr would beg to differ. I don't get how firing the UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT is so insignificant to deluded folk like yourself.

Also Ian McCaw was essentially forced out, who is the focus of this dumb thread.

Ironic.

And the BOR didn't come out "smelling like a rose"! The BOR has openly admitted fault and has worked to fix it..

The CAB worship has to stop!
Eball
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Chicken or the egg...Patty Crawford...regents really got it cranked up and going. A lot of folks blamed assistant coaches for tweets of support but how could anyone really blame or not expect same. I think CABs anger law suit against a few of the regents was a mistake but no question he was goaded into it. I also think a lot of folks on the BOR and in CABs camp under estimated the level of blame that would be presupposed by media and outsiders against CAB. It was like the guy from Ft Worth startlegram who we won't mention said yesterday...BU did not have to terminate CAB. He assumed they did like a lot of other folks but has changed his mind. I think if it matters who shot first clearly the BOR/some regents did.
blackie
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The latest action of the BOR is telling as to where ultimate responsibility for this fiasco lies. All the while the school in general was being daily front page headlines we heard not a peep of rebuttal fom the BOR that the school was not a "hunting ground for sexual predators"....that our students were just as good as you'll find anywhere else. That the school was just as safe, probably safer, than most any other large University.

No, what we heard were crickets while any exaggerated accusation was made my the media without a thread of context or rebuttal or facts from the school. Everyone was getting thrown under the bus by those whose ultimate responsibility it was to make sure we were doing things right. Deflecting everything to the football program depite the fact that this, just as it is everywhere else, is a societal problem wih the problem not being limited to any area was a convenience to sweep under the rug actions that had been going on for decades.

Anything was fair as long as it didn't direct any responsibility toward the good ole boys club who were too busy crying out to God.......because the charade of being stalwarts of fiduciary duty versus the real agenda of power and control was being threatened as never before. That's what all the crying was about......that and the fact that some probably were in fear of actual prosecution for what they did or did not do.

So silence......but now something is leveled in public directly at them....we get almost immediate rebuttal. Thanks a lot jerks for it being ok for letting the rest of us and the school to be thrown under the bus, as long as you keep yourselves protected.

And for the Truetts on the board. I'm still waiting for this to blow over as you told us it would by your buddies taking the silent approach. This problem is showing up across the nation as most of us knew. But Baylor is the only one who took the inane approach to blow up the school to save the reputations of its privileged few sitting around the board table.

Had this not gotten the attention of the media, nothing would have changed...and that lies at the feet of the pitiful thing we call the BOR. But once it was exposed, the only criteria was to save only the individuals that really mattered....themselves. And that is becoming more obvious every day.

Do I think Baylor is worse in the SA situation than our peers. No I don't. I also don't think we are any better. We have human students. What we don't have is adult leadership that puts the welfare of its students and programs before their own personal welfare and agndas. And isn't that what a governing body is suppose to be about?

How can you do things to protect the "brand", which are completely contrary to the brand and then throw up the Christian banner? Over the years we have put up public dislays of some real incompetence, specially in the field of athletics. But this board mentality over decades make Kevin Steele and Harry Miller like teams look like world beaters. I'm not sure you could muster up a handful of integriy amoungst the lot of them.

I'm still looking for their apology to all of us for their complete failure. None of us should ever have had the concern that our school wasn't being run as it should. That should have been a given. Guess we were the stupid clucks they take us for.
Dman
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George Truett said:

Chuckroast said:

Keyser Soze said:

You are so out of touch - 99.9% of those who know of this have his position. You just live in the incestuous .1% that affirms every wacky theory each of you gives the other.


By controlling the evidence and the message and by firing only CAB, the BOR was able to create the narrative that the public arena accepted . . . that Briles was the primary problem and that the BOR had the fortitude and impeccable morality to let him go in spite of the success of our football program.

The BOR and school come off smelling like a rose with that narrative out there for public consumption. Of course many Baylor fans just want to move on . . . after all, a few overpaid coaches are the only casualties in this whole mess and the school can get right back to winning championships. Why demand full transparency when it will only hurt the school? Even if there was equal fault to go around, why poke the bear (pun intended) when the guys you like (the BOR) are left standing, and the guys you don't like (CAB and his so called thug players) have taken the fall. Of course Thee's position is simply to let bygones be bygones.

The facts don't tell such a simple story, and it sounds like there are a lot more unknown ones out there. Let's just hope that justice (whatever it is) prevails.
This is wrong on more levels than I can count.

First, CAB wasn't the only one fired.

Ken Starr would beg to differ. I don't get how firing the UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT is so insignificant to deluded folk like yourself.

Also Ian McCaw was essentially forced out, who is the focus of this dumb thread.

Ironic.

And the BOR didn't come out "smelling like a rose"! The BOR has openly admitted fault and has worked to fix it..

The CAB worship has to stop!


Oh look. The BoR has signaled for reinforcements. I was wondering where Baghdad Bobs faithful side kick was.

We don't want or trust the same BoR who admitted fault after their veil of secrecy, meddling, and personal conflicts were disclosed... They don't get to "fix" their own problems after they were exposed and say "all is good...nothing to see here". That didn't work for anyone else. They demanded total accountability..from everyone but themselves. We want new, capable leaders who weren't involved, and weren't caught up in this in ANY capacity. We want to move on.

How can you or anyone else argue with that logic? Oh yeah...the checks keep coming..
Dman
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And for the record. The only ones being up Briles are the BoR apologists. It's their instant defense and distract technique:

-another deposition under oath about the BoR: "All you care about is BRILES"

-pages of findings of fault from their own PH report regarding the BoR: "all you care about is Briles"

-Conflicts of Interest: "all you care about is Briles"

-Meddling: "all you care about is Briles"

-institutional Lack of oversight and control: "all you care about is Briles"

-tarts: "all you care about is Briles"

-FoF was finally disclosed to have been selectively written..by the BoR.: "all you care about is Briles"

It's old. He's gone. That worked for a while, but at this point, it's just a tired and obvious attempt to re-direct.
Robert Wilson
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Eball said:

So you are confirming that the scapegoating worked ?


Yep that's basically it

The guys at shaggy and texags happily lapped up our own anti football "pr" blasts.
JusHappy2BeHere
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NoBSU said:

Dman said:

DAC said:

Keyser Soze said:

You are so out of touch - 99.9% of those who know of this have his position. You just live in the incestuous .1% that affirms every wacky theory each of you gives the other.



25 page thread so far and this is the dumbest post


It's hard to narrow down. But it's an accurate reflection of just How out of touch he is. Rest assured. Even he doesn't believe this. But Baghdad Bob is too far gone to stop now.
I think 99.9% is an underestimate. I think 100% of all released information in the future is going to support your opinion. Well, except for the fake stuff that doesn't.
you aren't really this stupid are you?

I mean I know you are a fool, but this stupid?

shaggy and texags would believe anything, no matter how far fetched as long as it hurt Baylor football.... they would happily pile on to Briles being a part of the Manson Family and the kidnapper of the Lindberg Baby.... they would swear that Art had a rifle on the grassy knoll in Dallas....

they hate the success that Art had here so much they would happily guzzle down anything that made him look like a bad guy.....

actually, they are very much like you.... maybe you would be happier over there.

just a suggestion.
"When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it--always."

Mahatma Gandhi
NoBSU
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Dman said:

And for the record. The only ones being up Briles are the BoR apologists. It's their instant defense and distract technique:

-another deposition under oath about the BoR: "All you care about is BRILES"

-pages of findings of fault from their own PH report regarding the BoR: "all you care about is Briles"

-Conflicts of Interest: "all you care about is Briles"

-Meddling: "all you care about is Briles"

-institutional Lack of oversight and control: "all you care about is Briles"

-tarts: "all you care about is Briles"

-FoF was finally disclosed to have been selectively written..by the BoR.: "all you care about is Briles"

It's old. He's gone. That worked for a while, but at this point, it's just a tired and obvious attempt to re-direct.
What was your Baylorfans username when the BOR was rolling the BAA, B Association, and others?
Chuckroast
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George Truett said:

Chuckroast said:

Keyser Soze said:

You are so out of touch - 99.9% of those who know of this have his position. You just live in the incestuous .1% that affirms every wacky theory each of you gives the other.


By controlling the evidence and the message and by firing only CAB, the BOR was able to create the narrative that the public arena accepted . . . that Briles was the primary problem and that the BOR had the fortitude and impeccable morality to let him go in spite of the success of our football program.

The BOR and school come off smelling like a rose with that narrative out there for public consumption. Of course many Baylor fans just want to move on . . . after all, a few overpaid coaches are the only casualties in this whole mess and the school can get right back to winning championships. Why demand full transparency when it will only hurt the school? Even if there was equal fault to go around, why poke the bear (pun intended) when the guys you like (the BOR) are left standing, and the guys you don't like (CAB and his so called thug players) have taken the fall. Of course Thee's position is simply to let bygones be bygones.

The facts don't tell such a simple story, and it sounds like there are a lot more unknown ones out there. Let's just hope that justice (whatever it is) prevails.
This is wrong on more levels than I can count.

First, CAB wasn't the only one fired.

Ken Starr would beg to differ. I don't get how firing the UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT is so insignificant to deluded folk like yourself.

Also Ian McCaw was essentially forced out, who is the focus of this dumb thread.

Ironic.

And the BOR didn't come out "smelling like a rose"! The BOR has openly admitted fault and has worked to fix it..

The CAB worship has to stop!
You're being hyper technical. Ian was not publicly fired. I'm not exactly sure what led to his resignation. Starr was reassigned. While you argue that this is the same as being fired, the public can easily conclude (as they did) that Starr's reassignment was due simply because the captain has to go down with the ship. The fact that Starr was allowed to stay at Baylor clearly shows that the BOR didn't consider him personally culpable.

The fact that Briles was the only person publicly fired clearly demonstrates that they wanted him to be viewed as the problem and the one most deserving of punishment.
Malbec
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Keyser Soze said:

As to your topic - I agree with most of what you said. In fact the "Notre Dame" model was specifically referred to in discussions. Some of the 105 recommendations implemented called for amnesty for both victims and witnesses that come forward.


Way back in the 80s I had a friend caught smoking pot in the dorm. His punishment was to be kicked out of the dorm. This was in a day where the number of people paying full boat money for a much lower cost tuition was appreciably higher - thus there were not many with scholarship money to take - which I agree sounds draconian for MIP.
I wrote a really long post about the imposition of Baptist morality on a student population that is majority non-Baptist, but decided it was too far afield. I will just say, rather than just offering amnesty when someone is assaulted (thereby providing young and inexperienced people with a tool to get them out of trouble, and the problems we already have with false accusations), why not just say that, 'we discourage drinking because ____________, but we are not going to drop a safe on your head if you do, we are not going to expel you, we are not going to kick you out of your home in dorm (unless you are drinking in the dorm), we are not going to rat you out to your parents, we are not going to take away your aid, we are not going to mark up your file, we are not going to use it against you if you are assaulted and we are not going to leverage it to force you to tell us who was drinking with you. Maybe then people wouldn't be looking for some way to not have to tell JA about something that JA shouldn't be dealing with in the first place.
 
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