Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

"The truth is, rich people stay rich by living like they're broke. Broke people stay broke by living like they're rich." - - Jake Guyllenhaal

That is very true.

I could only imagine the tens of thousands I would save by living in a mobile home and driving an older car.

Another way is using your money to create more sources of income: rental properties for example.

Doc Holliday said:

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That is very true.

I could only imagine the tens of thousands I would save by living in a mobile home and driving an older car.

Another way is using your money to create more sources of income: rental properties for example.

---

Man, I have always preached that one of the biggest wealth stealers is car payments. $500- $600 per month + insurance is a killer. Some people have two or three of them. Some people have to drive a new car every two to three years. Not me.

Buy a used car. If you buy new, pay cash or pay it off quickly and then drive it ten more years til the wheels fall off. Luckily, the only babe I feel like I have to impress is my wife.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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That is very true.

I could only imagine the tens of thousands I would save by living in a mobile home and driving an older car.

Another way is using your money to create more sources of income: rental properties for example.

---

Man, I have always preached that one of the biggest wealth stealers is car payments. $500- $600 per month + insurance is a killer. Some people have two or three of them. Some people have to drive a new car every two to three years. Not me.

Buy a used car. If you buy new, pay cash or pay it off quickly and then drive it ten more years til the wheels fall off. Luckily, the only babe I feel like I have to impress is my wife.

---

Yeah I could afford a Range Rover right now, but I drive a $15k car lol. It's a commuter and I don't feel the need to impress anyone.

I plan on driving it until the wheels fall off.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

That is very true.

I could only imagine the tens of thousands I would save by living in a mobile home and driving an older car.

Another way is using your money to create more sources of income: rental properties for example.

---

Man, I have always preached that one of the biggest wealth stealers is car payments. $500- $600 per month + insurance is a killer. Some people have two or three of them. Some people have to drive a new car every two to three years. Not me.

Buy a used car. If you buy new, pay cash or pay it off quickly and then drive it ten more years til the wheels fall off. Luckily, the only babe I feel like I have to impress is my wife.

---

Buying new can make sense, if you get the right deal. My wife got a Rav 4 in 2010, right after Toyota got slammed with the sticking-gas-pedal scandal. We got 0% financing for 4 years, plus free oil changes and tire rotations for 4 years, and bargained the price from $24k ($3k under MSRP) down to $18k.

Other than that time, I always pay cash ... but never say so until the deal is done with the sales guy usually thinking he will make up the money in financing.

Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

Doc Holliday said:

---

That is very true.

I could only imagine the tens of thousands I would save by living in a mobile home and driving an older car.

Another way is using your money to create more sources of income: rental properties for example.

---

Funny you mention mobile homes. I grew up literally next door to one. I've been reading about the business of them (I read constantly, I know it's annoying).

It's a trap. The idea is sold as one that could help bridge families into prosperity, but it is almost never the case. Instead, mobile homes and parks have become an entire economy literally built around keeping people poor. There is no incentive for park owners to help poor families. When they get evicted, they keep the home AND the items in it, using it to bring in the next family waiting for a chance to go through the cycle.

Big money is actually in having parks dedicated to sex offenders. They pay their bills, keep to themselves, and no one else will live around them. It's so sad.

https://www.prb.org/studyfindsusmanufacturedhomeownersfacequasihomelessness/

Quote:

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Rising housing costs in rural America have put homeownership beyond the reach of many working-poor families. Owning a manufactured home (often also known as a "mobile home") in a rural trailer park is often touted to these families as an affordable "next best thing"and a step toward conventional homeownership.
But a new study of trailer park residents in four states finds that, rather than being a step in the right direction, manufactured-home ownership in a privately owned park can be a trapa declining and often dangerous structure that lacks many of the social benefits of small town life and leaves its owners in a state of "quasi-homelessness," ever vulnerable to losing their home.
Owning a mobile home but renting the land it stands on in a trailer park amounts to "a kind of serfdom," says Sonya Salamon, a community studies professor at the University of Illinois, Urbana, and co-author of the study.
"Being landless leaves trailer owners at the park landlord's mercy," explains Salamon. "Because the park is private property, the owners have little recourse if they're evicted."

The researchers found hard-working rural families who took pride in their homes, but who also resented the popular stereotypes of trailer residents and often felt sucked into a financial arrangement filled with hidden costs and limitations.
Owning a manufactured home on land leased in a trailer park amounts to "half the American dream," says MacTavish, a human development professor at Oregon State University.
"The owners do have a house and it is often better than an apartment, but it is really seen as second best because they don't own the land," explains MacTavish. "They don't have the same control, status, or security as owning a stand-alone house."
The manufactured housing industry estimates that about half the nation's 8.8 million mobile homes are located in more than 50,000 landlord-owned parks. Salamon says that, since these trailer parks are regulated in only a few states, the parks' owners are generally free to abruptly and exorbitantly raise fees and rents as well as make their own rulesfor example, limiting whether residents can have pets or repair a car in their driveway.
Salamon and MacTavish also found that park residents can lose their homes without the due process given other types of renters. Lot rents are often raised beyond owners' means, and trailer park land is frequently sold to developers. Even the misbehavior of a family's children can be grounds for eviction, according to MacTavish.

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

According to the BLS stats overall job hiring in April was 5.9 million. That's the largest number of people hired in the history of the JOLTS record-keeping (started in 2000). There are 7.45 million current job openings and only 5.82 million workers identified as unemployed. That means there are 1.63 million more jobs than available workers.

There has never been a better time for middle-class U.S. workers to explore a new job.

Many companies are adding incentives for new workers with a strong work ethic, including: higher wages, sign-on bonuses, higher benefits, work-time flexibility and training programs for qualified candidates.

The wage gains for blue-collar non-supervisory workers are far exceeding the wage growth for supervisory positions. This Main Street economic growth is specifically benefiting workers without college degrees; and in many cases the financial opportunity for skilled blue-collar jobs is far exceeding the benefits of college debt.

Low unemployment (3.6%); wages growing (+3.2%); inflation stable (1.6%). These measures all have a cumulative impact on paycheck-to-paycheck Americans. Prices for durable goods are stable and wage growth is exceeding inflation. That means more disposable income in the middle-classDUH. When combined with the increased take home pay from lower tax rates, is exactly the intended outcome of MAGAnomics.

Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

According to the BLS stats overall job hiring in April was 5.9 million. That's the largest number of people hired in the history of the JOLTS record-keeping (started in 2000). There are 7.45 million current job openings and only 5.82 million workers identified as unemployed. That means there are 1.63 million more jobs than available workers.

There has never been a better time for middle-class U.S. workers to explore a new job.

Many companies are adding incentives for new workers with a strong work ethic, including: higher wages, sign-on bonuses, higher benefits, work-time flexibility and training programs for qualified candidates.

The wage gains for blue-collar non-supervisory workers are far exceeding the wage growth for supervisory positions. This Main Street economic growth is specifically benefiting workers without college degrees; and in many cases the financial opportunity for skilled blue-collar jobs is far exceeding the benefits of college debt.

Low unemployment (3.6%); wages growing (+3.2%); inflation stable (1.6%). These measures all have a cumulative impact on paycheck-to-paycheck Americans. Prices for durable goods are stable and wage growth is exceeding inflation. That means more disposable income in the middle-classDUH. When combined with the increased take home pay from lower tax rates, is exactly the intended outcome of MAGAnomics.

---

Was that a response to my question?

Or just a demonstration that you've not paid attention to anything posted on this thread?

BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

According to the BLS stats overall job hiring in April was 5.9 million. That's the largest number of people hired in the history of the JOLTS record-keeping (started in 2000). There are 7.45 million current job openings and only 5.82 million workers identified as unemployed. That means there are 1.63 million more jobs than available workers.

There has never been a better time for middle-class U.S. workers to explore a new job.

Many companies are adding incentives for new workers with a strong work ethic, including: higher wages, sign-on bonuses, higher benefits, work-time flexibility and training programs for qualified candidates.

The wage gains for blue-collar non-supervisory workers are far exceeding the wage growth for supervisory positions. This Main Street economic growth is specifically benefiting workers without college degrees; and in many cases the financial opportunity for skilled blue-collar jobs is far exceeding the benefits of college debt.

Low unemployment (3.6%); wages growing (+3.2%); inflation stable (1.6%). These measures all have a cumulative impact on paycheck-to-paycheck Americans. Prices for durable goods are stable and wage growth is exceeding inflation. That means more disposable income in the middle-classDUH. When combined with the increased take home pay from lower tax rates, is exactly the intended outcome of MAGAnomics.

---

Was that a response to my question?

Or just a demonstration that you've not paid attention to anything posted on this thread?

---

I just demonstrated that it's not a giving away money to the richest with very recent stats on the economy.

The stats disprove your assertion.

You need to get that projection under control.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

Amazon employs 647,000 people. What is really strange is rocket scientists like you and AOC think the world would be a better place if they just went away.

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

OMG! You are SUCH an economic MORON! It was a tax CREDIT you fool! They were NOT giving money to Amazon. What a fool.

And THAT should tell you all that you need to know about BBL and economics folks. He doesn't even understand the difference between a tax credit and a bag of cash. Don't walk... RUN from this fool.

---

Wow. You're big mad.

You feeling okay, guy? Maybe you should take a little break until you get control of yourself.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

Amazon employs 647,000 people. What is really strange is rocket scientists like you and AOC think the world would be a better place if they just went away.

---

AOC lives in your head 24/7.

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

OMG! You are SUCH an economic MORON! It was a tax CREDIT you fool! They were NOT giving money to Amazon. What a fool.

And THAT should tell you all that you need to know about BBL and economics folks. He doesn't even understand the difference between a tax credit and a bag of cash. Don't walk... RUN from this fool.

---

Dude I've pointed out the EXACT same thing to other lefties and it just doesn't compute.

Logic and reason for us are what works in the real world but for them, it's whatever works within their beliefs. They can't learn anything new from the world. They are incapable of logic or reason because logic and reason are discovered by looking out in the real world but they only see the world reflected off of their beliefs.

Doc Holliday said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

OMG! You are SUCH an economic MORON! It was a tax CREDIT you fool! They were NOT giving money to Amazon. What a fool.

And THAT should tell you all that you need to know about BBL and economics folks. He doesn't even understand the difference between a tax credit and a bag of cash. Don't walk... RUN from this fool.

---

Dude I've pointed out the EXACT same thing to other lefties and it just doesn't compute.

Logic and reason for us are what works in the real world but for them, it's whatever works within their beliefs. They can't learn anything new from the world. They are incapable of logic or reason because logic and reason are discovered by looking out in the real world but they only see the world reflected off of their beliefs.

---

That moment when you point out that they WERE giving money to Amazon.

NY gave guaranteed grants of up to half a billion dollars.

Not Tax Breaks (though there were nearly $3BILLION in those, too).

there were over $300 Million in building grants alone.

You're wrong. Sit there and enjoy it.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

OMG! You are SUCH an economic MORON! It was a tax CREDIT you fool! They were NOT giving money to Amazon. What a fool.

And THAT should tell you all that you need to know about BBL and economics folks. He doesn't even understand the difference between a tax credit and a bag of cash. Don't walk... RUN from this fool.

---

Dude I've pointed out the EXACT same thing to other lefties and it just doesn't compute.

Logic and reason for us are what works in the real world but for them, it's whatever works within their beliefs. They can't learn anything new from the world. They are incapable of logic or reason because logic and reason are discovered by looking out in the real world but they only see the world reflected off of their beliefs.

---

That moment when you point out that they WERE giving money to Amazon.

NY gave guaranteed grants of up to half a billion dollars.

Not Tax Breaks (though there were nearly $3BILLION in those, too).

there were over $300 Million in building grants alone.

You're wrong. Sit there and enjoy it.

---

Now, instead of paying millions of dollars in taxes to NY, they will pay zero, and those 25,000 workers will pay zero as well. Congratulations!

25,000 jobs with a reported average annual salary of $150k. With a marginal NY tax rate of 6.57% that comes up to over $200 Million per year in just tax revenue for those jobs. Other states will enjoy that tax revenue instead of New York.

The amount of economic gains for local restaurants, construction workers, Uber drivers, taxis and other local businesses was thrown away too.

It would've meant $10B in tax revenue vs $3B in incentives,..a net gain of $7B for NY

57% of NYC residents...otherwise known as her constituents...supported the project, vs. only 26% who don't, but of course, with all your experience in job creation and all that economic theory you think you have, you know better, right?

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

OMG! You are SUCH an economic MORON! It was a tax CREDIT you fool! They were NOT giving money to Amazon. What a fool.

And THAT should tell you all that you need to know about BBL and economics folks. He doesn't even understand the difference between a tax credit and a bag of cash. Don't walk... RUN from this fool.

---

Dude I've pointed out the EXACT same thing to other lefties and it just doesn't compute.

Logic and reason for us are what works in the real world but for them, it's whatever works within their beliefs. They can't learn anything new from the world. They are incapable of logic or reason because logic and reason are discovered by looking out in the real world but they only see the world reflected off of their beliefs.

---

That moment when you point out that they WERE giving money to Amazon.

NY gave guaranteed grants of up to half a billion dollars.

Not Tax Breaks (though there were nearly $3BILLION in those, too).

there were over $300 Million in building grants alone.

You're wrong. Sit there and enjoy it.

---

Yes, there were building grants of about $300 million. But AOC was referencing the $3 billion that was being "given" to Amazon.
By the way.... if you are giving $3 billion in order to get back $25+ billion.... that is a GREAT deal. Especially since a lot of the "give away" money was not going to be given until Amazon had hit it's jobs targets. If they didn't hire enough people, then they wouldn't qualify for the "give aways". Funny thing about that is that the giveaways would have instantaneously be overwhelmed by the massive tax increases and the secondary taxes from the economic boom.

But the real point is that the $3 billion is not available to use for infrastructure, and neither is the $300 million. That $300 million is earmarked specifically for economic development only. And the rest of the "grants" were nothing more than giving back a small percentage of the money that would have been collected in taxes from Amazon. Oh... and Amazon had agreed to use between $600 and $650 million of their tax break for building roads, sidewalks, and other infrastructure projects.

No matter how you slice it, AOC totally screwed NYC... and yet she is bragging about it.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

Amazon employs 647,000 people. What is really strange is rocket scientists like you and AOC think the world would be a better place if they just went away.

---

AOC lives in your head 24/7.

---

I think she ROCKS and hope she just keeps talking. Too bad ole Nancy doesn't have a clue how to use that gavel. LOL!

Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

OMG! You are SUCH an economic MORON! It was a tax CREDIT you fool! They were NOT giving money to Amazon. What a fool.

And THAT should tell you all that you need to know about BBL and economics folks. He doesn't even understand the difference between a tax credit and a bag of cash. Don't walk... RUN from this fool.

---

Dude I've pointed out the EXACT same thing to other lefties and it just doesn't compute.

Logic and reason for us are what works in the real world but for them, it's whatever works within their beliefs. They can't learn anything new from the world. They are incapable of logic or reason because logic and reason are discovered by looking out in the real world but they only see the world reflected off of their beliefs.

---

That moment when you point out that they WERE giving money to Amazon.

NY gave guaranteed grants of up to half a billion dollars.

Not Tax Breaks (though there were nearly $3BILLION in those, too).

there were over $300 Million in building grants alone.

You're wrong. Sit there and enjoy it.

---

Now, instead of paying millions of dollars in taxes to NY, they will pay zero, and those 25,000 workers will pay zero as well. Congratulations!

25,000 jobs with a reported average annual salary of $150k. With a marginal NY tax rate of 6.57% that comes up to over $200 Million per year in just tax revenue for those jobs. Other states will enjoy that tax revenue instead of New York.

The amount of economic gains for local restaurants, construction workers, Uber drivers, taxis and other local businesses was thrown away too.

It would've meant $10B in tax revenue vs $3B in incentives,..a net gain of $7B for NY

57% of NYC residents...otherwise known as her constituents...supported the project, vs. only 26% who don't, but of course, with all your experience in job creation and all that economic theory you think you have, you know better, right?

---

Sigh. So your admitting you guys were wrong, and that NY WAS going to pay?

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---

---

We just spent 1.2 trillion dollars giving away money to the richest people in America.

Did your taxes rise to pay for that?

---

Oh I get it... you are the adviser who told AOC that New York was going to give money to Amazon.... so now they get to spend it on infrastructure instead. LOL

You don't understand how taxes work, do you?

---

They literally WERE giving money to amazon. What is wrong with you? If taxation is theft, then exempting people from the same taxes everyone else pays is a gift.

My prime membership cost more money than Amazon paid last year in taxes.

Congratulations. You're the one person on earth who felt it was a good idea to use Amazon as an example for morality.

So strange.

---

OMG! You are SUCH an economic MORON! It was a tax CREDIT you fool! They were NOT giving money to Amazon. What a fool.

And THAT should tell you all that you need to know about BBL and economics folks. He doesn't even understand the difference between a tax credit and a bag of cash. Don't walk... RUN from this fool.

---

Dude I've pointed out the EXACT same thing to other lefties and it just doesn't compute.

Logic and reason for us are what works in the real world but for them, it's whatever works within their beliefs. They can't learn anything new from the world. They are incapable of logic or reason because logic and reason are discovered by looking out in the real world but they only see the world reflected off of their beliefs.

---

That moment when you point out that they WERE giving money to Amazon.

NY gave guaranteed grants of up to half a billion dollars.

Not Tax Breaks (though there were nearly $3BILLION in those, too).

there were over $300 Million in building grants alone.

You're wrong. Sit there and enjoy it.

---

Yes, there were building grants of about $300 million. But AOC was referencing the $3 billion that was being "given" to Amazon.
By the way.... if you are giving $3 billion in order to get back $25+ billion.... that is a GREAT deal. Especially since a lot of the "give away" money was not going to be given until Amazon had hit it's jobs targets. If they didn't hire enough people, then they wouldn't qualify for the "give aways". Funny thing about that is that the giveaways would have instantaneously be overwhelmed by the massive tax increases and the secondary taxes from the economic boom.

But the real point is that the $3 billion is not available to use for infrastructure, and neither is the $300 million. That $300 million is earmarked specifically for economic development only. And the rest of the "grants" were nothing more than giving back a small percentage of the money that would have been collected in taxes from Amazon. Oh... and Amazon had agreed to use between $600 and $650 million of their tax break for building roads, sidewalks, and other infrastructure projects.

No matter how you slice it, AOC totally screwed NYC... and yet she is bragging about it.

---

The tax-incentive plans have an extremely mixed track record of working out. If you're being honest, you'll admit that.

Remember the FoxConn deal in Wisconsin?

How's that working out?

I get why you'd want to change the topic away from where y'all were losing ground.

But at least you've calmed down enough that you're not just calling people stupid. Maybe your coffee kicked in.

Proud of you.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

Oh. It's race that most strongly correlates with incarceration rates.

Here's a pretty interesting article from the Pew Research Center showing that African Americans, while only making 12% of the adult population of America, makes up 33% of the prison population of American prisons.

Economic status plays into it as well. But if it was a stronger indicator, the gap wouldn't be so ridiculously large.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/04/30/shrinking-gap-between-number-of-blacks-and-whites-in-prison/

Good news, the gap IS shrinking. So it's a start. But SOOOOO long to go.

Incarceration rates are one of the most stark examples of institutionalized racism. Things like huge differences in minimum sentences for crack vs cocaine (those drugs were incredibly split along racial lines). Examples of this go back to Jim Crow -which has had a legacy across generations.

Things will never be perfect. But we can work on it.

One interesting option is to remove race altogether from sentencing practices. Prosecutors would literally enter race-blind before deciding on the case.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/us/prosecutor-race-blind-charging.amp.html

---

Here we go again.

You think in static terms. We live in a dynamic world.

Black culture acts differently than white culture. That is a fact. Are you willing to discuss?

---

What am I supposed to say to that word-salad of a response? Who is saying the world is static? I'm talking about facts. These are facts right now.

Here's how discussion among serious adults work: someone will state an opinion and usually back it up with some sort of reliable source material to show it wasn't something they just made up. It shows why they believe what they believe.

Then another serious adult will respond in kind. Either agreeing, disagreeing, or asking questions about the first adult's methodology.

Notice how I didn't put space in there for insults, aspersions and snippy remarks?

Static? Did you hear a new word you're trying to work into your vernacular? Are you disagreeing with the FACT that African Americans make up 12% of the adult population but 33% of the prison population?

And please, don't start talking about "black culture." Stay in your lane.

---

Stop being disingenuous. It belittles everyone in the conversation. Do you believe that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated because they are black? That is what you're insinuating, so make your case.

The alternate position would be that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated because they commit a disproportionate percentage of the crimes. You seem to reject that position, so state why.

Bearass, I'll jump in quickly and say I believe the disproportionate incarceration for crimes of young black men compared to the percentages of other races has to do with LBJ's Great Society proposed to have "nig**** voting democrat for 100 years." This is part of my anti-democrat rant issue

The "disproportionate" amount of welfare given, AND TAKEN, by black mothers has the forced fathers of young black men out of the home. A proven consequence of fatherless homes is "disproportionate" incarceration of its children. That's the root of the problem as these children are angry and undisciplined and commit criminal offenses because of it

"Disproportionate" incarceration for crimes of young black men is just a symptom of fatherless homes required by democrat backed welfare and other undeserved entitlement programs. Blacks need to fight for their lives, literally, to escape this modern day slavery democrat plantation model. Civil War was fought over DEMOCRAT SLAVERY and nearly 100 years afterward the DEMOCRATS under LBJ figured out again how to get blacks back on the plantations when they needed them black votes

^^^ Truth

ShooterTX said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

So you are admitting that you are lazy... got it.
If you have done nothing beyond what was given to you because of your birth... then you have truly wasted your entire life.
Perhaps that is why you are so unsuccessful in life. You should look into that.

---

No. not lazy. I am saying I live a life of gratitude in love and service to others.

Waco1947 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

So you are admitting that you are lazy... got it.
If you have done nothing beyond what was given to you because of your birth... then you have truly wasted your entire life.
Perhaps that is why you are so unsuccessful in life. You should look into that.

---

No. not lazy. I am saying I live a life of gratitude in love and "service" to others.

---

some kind of "love" I'll say...you love yourself...

"service" to others....you like to toot your own horn on that one..

the only "gratitude" that you have is what you crave from others... you are FAKE NEWS

corncob pipe said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

So you are admitting that you are lazy... got it.
If you have done nothing beyond what was given to you because of your birth... then you have truly wasted your entire life.
Perhaps that is why you are so unsuccessful in life. You should look into that.

---

No. not lazy. I am saying I live a life of gratitude in love and "service" to others.

---

some kind of "love" I'll say...you love yourself...

"service" to others....you like to toot your own horn on that one..

the only "gratitude" that you have is what you crave from others... you are FAKE NEWS

---

Remember that his "service to others" includes advocating infanticide.

corncob pipe said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

So you are admitting that you are lazy... got it.
If you have done nothing beyond what was given to you because of your birth... then you have truly wasted your entire life.
Perhaps that is why you are so unsuccessful in life. You should look into that.

---

No. not lazy. I am saying I live a life of gratitude in love and "service" to others.

---

some kind of "love" I'll say...you love yourself...

"service" to others....you like to toot your own horn on that one..

the only "gratitude" that you have is what you crave from others... you are FAKE NEWS

---

Tell you what go to Mexico with next time; sit with grieving grandparents whose grand child committed suicide, or my next HFH, or next hospital call or counseling a racist to see a larger picture than skin color.

Waco1947 said:

---

corncob pipe said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

So you are admitting that you are lazy... got it.
If you have done nothing beyond what was given to you because of your birth... then you have truly wasted your entire life.
Perhaps that is why you are so unsuccessful in life. You should look into that.

---

No. not lazy. I am saying I live a life of gratitude in love and "service" to others.

---

some kind of "love" I'll say...you love yourself...

"service" to others....you like to toot your own horn on that one..

the only "gratitude" that you have is what you crave from others... you are FAKE NEWS

---

Tell you what go to Mexico with next time; sit with grieving grandparents whose grand child committed suicide, or my next HFH, or next hospital call or counseling a racist to see a larger picture than skin color.

---

Holy Cow!! Mother Teresa had better lock the door and pull down the shades. Sounds to me like she might lose her spot in Heaven!

Will the real economy please stand up.

Better yet, help someone down the street. Let the people of Mexico help the people of Mexico, and the people of Honduras the people of Honduras.

As for you, look to your neighbor, not for politics, but in true compassion, and act without desire for fame or boasting.

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

Oh. It's race that most strongly correlates with incarceration rates.

Here's a pretty interesting article from the Pew Research Center showing that African Americans, while only making 12% of the adult population of America, makes up 33% of the prison population of American prisons.

Economic status plays into it as well. But if it was a stronger indicator, the gap wouldn't be so ridiculously large.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/04/30/shrinking-gap-between-number-of-blacks-and-whites-in-prison/

Good news, the gap IS shrinking. So it's a start. But SOOOOO long to go.

Incarceration rates are one of the most stark examples of institutionalized racism. Things like huge differences in minimum sentences for crack vs cocaine (those drugs were incredibly split along racial lines). Examples of this go back to Jim Crow -which has had a legacy across generations.

Things will never be perfect. But we can work on it.

One interesting option is to remove race altogether from sentencing practices. Prosecutors would literally enter race-blind before deciding on the case.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/us/prosecutor-race-blind-charging.amp.html

---

Here we go again.

You think in static terms. We live in a dynamic world.

Black culture acts differently than white culture. That is a fact. Are you willing to discuss?

---

What am I supposed to say to that word-salad of a response? Who is saying the world is static? I'm talking about facts. These are facts right now.

Here's how discussion among serious adults work: someone will state an opinion and usually back it up with some sort of reliable source material to show it wasn't something they just made up. It shows why they believe what they believe.

Then another serious adult will respond in kind. Either agreeing, disagreeing, or asking questions about the first adult's methodology.

Notice how I didn't put space in there for insults, aspersions and snippy remarks?

Static? Did you hear a new word you're trying to work into your vernacular? Are you disagreeing with the FACT that African Americans make up 12% of the adult population but 33% of the prison population?

And please, don't start talking about "black culture." Stay in your lane.

---

Stop being disingenuous. It belittles everyone in the conversation. Do you believe that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated because they are black? That is what you're insinuating, so make your case.

The alternate position would be that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated because they commit a disproportionate percentage of the crimes. You seem to reject that position, so state why.

---

I have to ask. Are you seriously questioning whether or not our prison/judicial system is systemically racist?

I ask because this is sincerely one of the most well-documented examples of systemic racism in our entire society. There's a reason why prison-reform is a bi-partisan issue.

Stop-and-frisk is a prime example
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2018/10/12/policing/

But there is also a huge discrepancy -not just in arrests and use of force- but also in the sentences handed out. Even after one corrects for other factors in their histories (such as repeat offenses, etc) Blacks are given longer prison sentences and for longer.

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=articles

Quote:

---

Using quantile regressions, we estimate the size of racial disparity across the conditional sentencing distribution. We find that the majority of the disparity between black and white sentences can be explained by differences in legally permitted characteristics, in particular, the arrest offense and the defendant's criminal history. Black arrestees are also disproportionately concentrated in federal districts that have higher sentences in general. Yet even after we control for these and other prior characteristics, an unexplained black-white sentence disparity of approximately 9 percent remains in our main sample. The disparity is nearly 13 percent in a broader sample that includes drug cases. Estimates of the conditional effect of being black on sentences are robust, fairly stable across the deciles, and economically significant. There are approximately 95,000 black men in federal prisons. Eliminating the "black premium" that we identify would reduce the steady-state level of black men in federal prison by 8,00011,000 men and save $230$320 million per year in direct costs

---

And there's a reason why it's a problem with bi-partisan support towards fixing, it's stupid-expensive and bleeding states dry. Even so-called progressive states like California.
https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/infocenter/california-expenditures-corrections-and-public-education

Even Trump supports it, though for different reasons.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2018/12/3/18122392/first-step-act-criminal-justice-reform-bill-congress

But one of the most BASIC examples of how our justice system is a pure example of institutionalized racism is the difference in how cocaine is treated. Crack cocaine possession and distribution is MUCH more harshly treated than powder cocaine. The difference?

Guess which is cheaper and more likely to be abused by minorities than the other?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5614457/

And before you try to make the point about it being biased against poor people and not just Blacks, there is another incredible example of disparate treatment: the difference in how the nation has responded to the Opioid crisis (which has ravaged primarily rural midwestern and primarily white parts of the country -80% of the deaths are white) vs the response to the crack epidemic (which primarily affected urban black areas 84% of arrests were Black).
https://khn.org/morning-breakout/two-drug-epidemics-decades-apart-why-governments-response-to-opioid-epidemic-different-than-crack-crisis/

I'm not trying to blow up anyone's spot, but our prison system is absolutely a PRIME example of institutionalized racism. How laws can have what the Supreme Court has deemed "disparate impact." On its face, the laws may be nondiscriminatory, but the impact is absolutely discriminatory.

BrooksBearLives said:

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bearassnekkid said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BrooksBearLives said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

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Oh. It's race that most strongly correlates with incarceration rates.

Here's a pretty interesting article from the Pew Research Center showing that African Americans, while only making 12% of the adult population of America, makes up 33% of the prison population of American prisons.

Economic status plays into it as well. But if it was a stronger indicator, the gap wouldn't be so ridiculously large.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/04/30/shrinking-gap-between-number-of-blacks-and-whites-in-prison/

Good news, the gap IS shrinking. So it's a start. But SOOOOO long to go.

Incarceration rates are one of the most stark examples of institutionalized racism. Things like huge differences in minimum sentences for crack vs cocaine (those drugs were incredibly split along racial lines). Examples of this go back to Jim Crow -which has had a legacy across generations.

Things will never be perfect. But we can work on it.

One interesting option is to remove race altogether from sentencing practices. Prosecutors would literally enter race-blind before deciding on the case.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/us/prosecutor-race-blind-charging.amp.html

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Here we go again.

You think in static terms. We live in a dynamic world.

Black culture acts differently than white culture. That is a fact. Are you willing to discuss?

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What am I supposed to say to that word-salad of a response? Who is saying the world is static? I'm talking about facts. These are facts right now.

Here's how discussion among serious adults work: someone will state an opinion and usually back it up with some sort of reliable source material to show it wasn't something they just made up. It shows why they believe what they believe.

Then another serious adult will respond in kind. Either agreeing, disagreeing, or asking questions about the first adult's methodology.

Notice how I didn't put space in there for insults, aspersions and snippy remarks?

Static? Did you hear a new word you're trying to work into your vernacular? Are you disagreeing with the FACT that African Americans make up 12% of the adult population but 33% of the prison population?

And please, don't start talking about "black culture." Stay in your lane.

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Stop being disingenuous. It belittles everyone in the conversation. Do you believe that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated because they are black? That is what you're insinuating, so make your case.

The alternate position would be that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated because they commit a disproportionate percentage of the crimes. You seem to reject that position, so state why.

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I have to ask. Are you seriously questioning whether or not our prison/judicial system is systemically racist?

I ask because this is sincerely one of the most well-documented examples of systemic racism in our entire society. There's a reason why prison-reform is a bi-partisan issue.

Stop-and-frisk is a prime example
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2018/10/12/policing/

But there is also a huge discrepancy -not just in arrests and use of force- but also in the sentences handed out. Even after one corrects for other factors in their histories (such as repeat offenses, etc) Blacks are given longer prison sentences and for longer.

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=articles

Quote:

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Using quantile regressions, we estimate the size of racial disparity across the conditional sentencing distribution. We find that the majority of the disparity between black and white sentences can be explained by differences in legally permitted characteristics, in particular, the arrest offense and the defendant's criminal history. Black arrestees are also disproportionately concentrated in federal districts that have higher sentences in general. Yet even after we control for these and other prior characteristics, an unexplained black-white sentence disparity of approximately 9 percent remains in our main sample. The disparity is nearly 13 percent in a broader sample that includes drug cases. Estimates of the conditional effect of being black on sentences are robust, fairly stable across the deciles, and economically significant. There are approximately 95,000 black men in federal prisons. Eliminating the "black premium" that we identify would reduce the steady-state level of black men in federal prison by 8,00011,000 men and save $230$320 million per year in direct costs

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And there's a reason why it's a problem with bi-partisan support towards fixing, it's stupid-expensive and bleeding states dry. Even so-called progressive states like California.
https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/infocenter/california-expenditures-corrections-and-public-education

Even Trump supports it, though for different reasons.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2018/12/3/18122392/first-step-act-criminal-justice-reform-bill-congress

But one of the most BASIC examples of how our justice system is a pure example of institutionalized racism is the difference in how cocaine is treated. Crack cocaine possession and distribution is MUCH more harshly treated than powder cocaine. The difference?

Guess which is cheaper and more likely to be abused by minorities than the other?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5614457/

And before you try to make the point about it being biased against poor people and not just Blacks, there is another incredible example of disparate treatment: the difference in how the nation has responded to the Opioid crisis (which has ravaged primarily rural midwestern and primarily white parts of the country -80% of the deaths are white) vs the response to the crack epidemic (which primarily affected urban black areas 84% of arrests were Black).
https://khn.org/morning-breakout/two-drug-epidemics-decades-apart-why-governments-response-to-opioid-epidemic-different-than-crack-crisis/

I'm not trying to blow up anyone's spot, but our prison system is absolutely a PRIME example of institutionalized racism. How laws can have what the Supreme Court has deemed "disparate impact." On its face, the laws may be nondiscriminatory, but the impact is absolutely discriminatory.

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I see. You think people are put in prison because of the color of their skin. All those racists judges and lawyers out there secretly trying to lock away black people because they hate them.

If you believe this, there is no helping you (oh, and also, if it were true, there would be no way to fix it, unless you think racism is an exclusively white trait. Of course, that opinion would be . . . wait for it . . .racist.) Because more black judges and lawyers would ostensibly be prone to the same prejudices in the other direction.

OR, just maybe, the reality is that there are more black people in prison than their population ratio would suggest because they simply commit more crime pro rata. Pretty simple, even though your wokeness desperately doesn't want it to be true. I would argue that this due to largely socio-economic reasons (and to a lesser degree cultural) which makes sense, but you think it's because white people have a conspiracy to lock up black people. Because, of course, white people are inherently evil yada yada. That tin foil hat doesn't fit me, so go on thinking whatever you'd like.

I