blackie said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

How Many Americans Are About to Die?
A new analysis shows that the country is on track to pass spring's grimmest record.
Alexis C. Madrigal and Whet Moser
November 19, 2020

The United States has made huge advances in fighting the coronavirus. The astonishingly high death rates the country saw during the spring have fallen, and Americans are much more likely now than they were then to survive a COVID-19 hospitalization. New treatments have, in some cases, helped speed recovery - President Donald Trump has trumpeted his own bout with the virus as proof that there is a "cure" for the illness. (There is not.) These developments have given Americans the impression that no matter how high cases surge, deaths might not reach the heights of the spring.

But the truth is grimmer. The story people want to believe about how much treatments have improved in recent months does not hold up to quantitative scrutiny.

The U.S. health-care system has not reduced the deadliness of the coronavirus since July, according to a new estimate by a prominent COVID-19 researcher, which accounts for the lags in public reporting of cases and deaths. Instead, the virus has, with ruthless regularity, killed at least 1.5 percent of all Americans diagnosed with COVID-19 over the past four months.

---

Now know of two Thanksgiving Covid related get togethers in our extended family .

1. 80 year old brother in law ( in terrible health and fat ) was giving my sister a hard time about not going to Thanksgiving at his sons house. Got so bad my sisters only son ( a very quiet guy ) finally told my brother in law he was being a selfish idiot. Luckily that message finally got through his head as it turns out there were infected people at his sons house...including the wife. If either my sister or brother in law had gotten infected they could have been in real trouble .

2. 81 year old widowed cousin was constantly badgered by her kids to attend Thanksgiving ....she finally gives in. EVERYONE who attended now is infected. But this poor old lady is the only one in ICU. Dont know if she is going to make it .

Some people just can not ----absolutely refuse to comprehend the realities .

Yes, if you are under the age of 60 and are in good health the odds of you dying from this virus are remote.

But even if you are totally asymptomatic ..........you could easily transmit this virus to someone ELSE who has pre existing conditions and inadvertently put them at grave risk .

---

Canada, I know you already know this, but you are speaking to tone deaf people that when asked to do something simple spin it into something which is not being asked of them.

Watching Meet the Press today and saw more pleas from doctors and nurses that are at the breaking point. What freedoms are we really asked to give up to wear a mask? We already wear seat belts, drive at speeds less than what we may want to do, and are not allowed to go to restricted areas. The only freedom that we truly have in this country that costs one nothing is to be arrogant, thoughtless of others, and downright selfish....and many are fully exercising those rights.

I hate to say this, but some people will never see the light until they are the ones needing to go to the ICU or see a loved one suffer for weeks alone.....and you don't have to be over 60 to be in that position.

---

We are little different from the people of 1918.

Only this time the scientific community is far better trained and equipped to save us from our own stupidity.

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

How Many Americans Are About to Die?
A new analysis shows that the country is on track to pass spring's grimmest record.
Alexis C. Madrigal and Whet Moser
November 19, 2020

The United States has made huge advances in fighting the coronavirus. The astonishingly high death rates the country saw during the spring have fallen, and Americans are much more likely now than they were then to survive a COVID-19 hospitalization. New treatments have, in some cases, helped speed recovery - President Donald Trump has trumpeted his own bout with the virus as proof that there is a "cure" for the illness. (There is not.) These developments have given Americans the impression that no matter how high cases surge, deaths might not reach the heights of the spring.

But the truth is grimmer. The story people want to believe about how much treatments have improved in recent months does not hold up to quantitative scrutiny.

The U.S. health-care system has not reduced the deadliness of the coronavirus since July, according to a new estimate by a prominent COVID-19 researcher, which accounts for the lags in public reporting of cases and deaths. Instead, the virus has, with ruthless regularity, killed at least 1.5 percent of all Americans diagnosed with COVID-19 over the past four months.

---

Not really sure what that graph is supposed to be showing, especially when it starts at the end of the deadliest period of the virus. Of course we're better at fighting the virus and/or it's weaker. Even the graph shows that clearly. What we haven't been able to do is slow spread. July/August was probably the mutating point to an aerosolized version.

---

What the graph shows is that deaths haven't truly decoupled from cases. The fatality rate fell for a few months, but it's tracked steadily ever since. That has certain implications for the next few months, as we're back into uncontrolled spread.

I haven't seen any reference to the virus mutating to an aerosolized version. Evidence of aerosol transmission was presented at least as early as April. It just took a while to prove what was always suspected.

---

The deaths clearly decoupled if they actually extended the graph to March 1 instead of starting at May 1. In fact the graph shows it as a 300 death uptick tracking to a 20,000 case daily increase, a literal doubling of the case count and a 25% daily death increase. The swap point (red above blue to blue above red) in the graph is the decoupling point.

Regarding aerosol spread, the CDC and WHO are just now begrudgingly acknowledging it, and are still hung up on droplet spread. Science has been mentioning it in studies since August and are starting to force the issue of how to better deal with it. It will be the cornerstone argument (aerosol spread) for a US shutdown.

---

There aren't actually more deaths than cases, so the lines have to cross eventually. Decoupling would mean the red line stopped tracking the blue.

Rawhide said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

How Many Americans Are About to Die?
A new analysis shows that the country is on track to pass spring's grimmest record.
Alexis C. Madrigal and Whet Moser
November 19, 2020

The United States has made huge advances in fighting the coronavirus. The astonishingly high death rates the country saw during the spring have fallen, and Americans are much more likely now than they were then to survive a COVID-19 hospitalization. New treatments have, in some cases, helped speed recovery - President Donald Trump has trumpeted his own bout with the virus as proof that there is a "cure" for the illness. (There is not.) These developments have given Americans the impression that no matter how high cases surge, deaths might not reach the heights of the spring.

But the truth is grimmer. The story people want to believe about how much treatments have improved in recent months does not hold up to quantitative scrutiny.

The U.S. health-care system has not reduced the deadliness of the coronavirus since July, according to a new estimate by a prominent COVID-19 researcher, which accounts for the lags in public reporting of cases and deaths. Instead, the virus has, with ruthless regularity, killed at least 1.5 percent of all Americans diagnosed with COVID-19 over the past four months.

---

So let's throw away our freedoms, set a precedent for the govt. to take away people's livelihoods and lock down forever.

And let's also outlaw driving, guns and fast food since they also kill lots of people. SMDH.

---

Don't forget about alcohol! It's responsible for tens of thousands of avoidable deaths per year!

---

Don't forget sports!

Oh, they've pretty eliminated that too for most of us!

Dam Dempanic! Not Pandemic ........ Dempanic

Always remember J. B.

Never allow Trump credit, for anything, nothing at all

Canada2017 said:

---

blackie said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

How Many Americans Are About to Die?
A new analysis shows that the country is on track to pass spring's grimmest record.
Alexis C. Madrigal and Whet Moser
November 19, 2020

The United States has made huge advances in fighting the coronavirus. The astonishingly high death rates the country saw during the spring have fallen, and Americans are much more likely now than they were then to survive a COVID-19 hospitalization. New treatments have, in some cases, helped speed recovery - President Donald Trump has trumpeted his own bout with the virus as proof that there is a "cure" for the illness. (There is not.) These developments have given Americans the impression that no matter how high cases surge, deaths might not reach the heights of the spring.

But the truth is grimmer. The story people want to believe about how much treatments have improved in recent months does not hold up to quantitative scrutiny.

The U.S. health-care system has not reduced the deadliness of the coronavirus since July, according to a new estimate by a prominent COVID-19 researcher, which accounts for the lags in public reporting of cases and deaths. Instead, the virus has, with ruthless regularity, killed at least 1.5 percent of all Americans diagnosed with COVID-19 over the past four months.

---

Now know of two Thanksgiving Covid related get togethers in our extended family .

1. 80 year old brother in law ( in terrible health and fat ) was giving my sister a hard time about not going to Thanksgiving at his sons house. Got so bad my sisters only son ( a very quiet guy ) finally told my brother in law he was being a selfish idiot. Luckily that message finally got through his head as it turns out there were infected people at his sons house...including the wife. If either my sister or brother in law had gotten infected they could have been in real trouble .

2. 81 year old widowed cousin was constantly badgered by her kids to attend Thanksgiving ....she finally gives in. EVERYONE who attended now is infected. But this poor old lady is the only one in ICU. Dont know if she is going to make it .

Some people just can not ----absolutely refuse to comprehend the realities .

Yes, if you are under the age of 60 and are in good health the odds of you dying from this virus are remote.

But even if you are totally asymptomatic ..........you could easily transmit this virus to someone ELSE who has pre existing conditions and inadvertently put them at grave risk .

---

Canada, I know you already know this, but you are speaking to tone deaf people that when asked to do something simple spin it into something which is not being asked of them.

Watching Meet the Press today and saw more pleas from doctors and nurses that are at the breaking point. What freedoms are we really asked to give up to wear a mask? We already wear seat belts, drive at speeds less than what we may want to do, and are not allowed to go to restricted areas. The only freedom that we truly have in this country that costs one nothing is to be arrogant, thoughtless of others, and downright selfish....and many are fully exercising those rights.

I hate to say this, but some people will never see the light until they are the ones needing to go to the ICU or see a loved one suffer for weeks alone.....and you don't have to be over 60 to be in that position.

---

We are little different from the people of 1918.

Only this time the scientific community is far better trained and equipped to save us from our own stupidity.

---

Half of America isn't listening to those well-trained experts. Not only that, but they've actively scorned their expertise.

Sam, it completely depends upon your opposing benchmark numbers. This had one side daily deaths other side daily cases. As long as those ranges remain consistent the reversal of trend lines is your decoupling. I can assure you that if they'd included April it would look even more dramatic. The fact they're following the lower trend pattern doesn't mean the death rate hasn't declined tremendously,

J.B.Katz said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

blackie said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

How Many Americans Are About to Die?
A new analysis shows that the country is on track to pass spring's grimmest record.
Alexis C. Madrigal and Whet Moser
November 19, 2020

The United States has made huge advances in fighting the coronavirus. The astonishingly high death rates the country saw during the spring have fallen, and Americans are much more likely now than they were then to survive a COVID-19 hospitalization. New treatments have, in some cases, helped speed recovery - President Donald Trump has trumpeted his own bout with the virus as proof that there is a "cure" for the illness. (There is not.) These developments have given Americans the impression that no matter how high cases surge, deaths might not reach the heights of the spring.

But the truth is grimmer. The story people want to believe about how much treatments have improved in recent months does not hold up to quantitative scrutiny.

The U.S. health-care system has not reduced the deadliness of the coronavirus since July, according to a new estimate by a prominent COVID-19 researcher, which accounts for the lags in public reporting of cases and deaths. Instead, the virus has, with ruthless regularity, killed at least 1.5 percent of all Americans diagnosed with COVID-19 over the past four months.

---

Now know of two Thanksgiving Covid related get togethers in our extended family .

1. 80 year old brother in law ( in terrible health and fat ) was giving my sister a hard time about not going to Thanksgiving at his sons house. Got so bad my sisters only son ( a very quiet guy ) finally told my brother in law he was being a selfish idiot. Luckily that message finally got through his head as it turns out there were infected people at his sons house...including the wife. If either my sister or brother in law had gotten infected they could have been in real trouble .

2. 81 year old widowed cousin was constantly badgered by her kids to attend Thanksgiving ....she finally gives in. EVERYONE who attended now is infected. But this poor old lady is the only one in ICU. Dont know if she is going to make it .

Some people just can not ----absolutely refuse to comprehend the realities .

Yes, if you are under the age of 60 and are in good health the odds of you dying from this virus are remote.

But even if you are totally asymptomatic ..........you could easily transmit this virus to someone ELSE who has pre existing conditions and inadvertently put them at grave risk .

---

Canada, I know you already know this, but you are speaking to tone deaf people that when asked to do something simple spin it into something which is not being asked of them.

Watching Meet the Press today and saw more pleas from doctors and nurses that are at the breaking point. What freedoms are we really asked to give up to wear a mask? We already wear seat belts, drive at speeds less than what we may want to do, and are not allowed to go to restricted areas. The only freedom that we truly have in this country that costs one nothing is to be arrogant, thoughtless of others, and downright selfish....and many are fully exercising those rights.

I hate to say this, but some people will never see the light until they are the ones needing to go to the ICU or see a loved one suffer for weeks alone.....and you don't have to be over 60 to be in that position.

---

We are little different from the people of 1918.

Only this time the scientific community is far better trained and equipped to save us from our own stupidity.

---

Half of America isn't listening to those well-trained experts. Not only that, but they've actively scorned their expertise.

---

Woodrow Wilson was so concerned about America's war effort he constantly discourage news about the pandemic . Civilians were told next to nothing for months.

Thousands of young American troops on their way to the war in France got infected on overcrowded troopships.

Many died before even reaching the front lines .

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

"WE AS PHYSICIANS struggle to conceive of the idea of exponential growth," says Dan Runde, of the emergency medicine department at University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics, in Iowa City. "There's so short a window. You go from barely handling things, to not at all. It's so fast." He recalls how Iowa had some 700 patients in hospital infected with covid-19 at the start of November. A few weeks later, he says, that tally had doubled. At times almost every ICU bed is filled.

His hospital, like others, tried preparing for such a surge. In-patients, where possible, were sent home; a dozen new ICU beds were added; some elective surgeries were postponed. Then staff watched in alarm as nearly one in every two covid-19 tests run in Iowa turned out positive, foretelling a surge in hospitalisation - and deaths. His hospital, the state's best-equipped, takes in patients from far and wide when others can't cope. That already means an "aggressive triage process." "We're already getting to the line to be full. We have to start saying no. If you're not going to die in the next six to 12 hours, then you have to wait," he says.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/11/28/the-midwest-is-americas-covid-19-hotspot

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam, it completely depends upon your opposing benchmark numbers. This had one side daily deaths other side daily cases. As long as those ranges remain consistent the reversal of trend lines is your decoupling. I can assure you that if they'd included April it would look even more dramatic. The fact they're following the lower trend pattern doesn't mean the death rate hasn't declined tremendously,

---

I agree that's it's declined. The point is that a lot of people are assuming we've gotten deaths under control such that they won't increase again along with cases. That's the whole idea of a "caseademic." It's a dangerous error.

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

---

What's your definition of authoritarian?

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

---

What's your definition of authoritarian?

---

I know it when I see it. I see lockdowns as authoritarian.

Don't order me to behave a certain way, persuade me. Especially if it concerns rights.

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

---

What's your definition of authoritarian?

---

I know it when I see it. I see lockdowns as authoritarian.

Don't order me to behave a certain way, persuade me. Especially if it concerns rights.

---

Same question I asked Mothra: should the state have any emergency powers?

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

---

What's your definition of authoritarian?

---

I know it when I see it. I see lockdowns as authoritarian.

Don't order me to behave a certain way, persuade me. Especially if it concerns rights.

---

Same question I asked Mothra: should the state have any emergency powers?

---

Sure.

Should citizens have any rights?

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

---

What's your definition of authoritarian?

---

I know it when I see it. I see lockdowns as authoritarian.

Don't order me to behave a certain way, persuade me. Especially if it concerns rights.

---

Same question I asked Mothra: should the state have any emergency powers?

---

Sure.

Should citizens have any rights?

---

What powers should the state have during a pandemic?

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

---

What's your definition of authoritarian?

---

I know it when I see it. I see lockdowns as authoritarian.

Don't order me to behave a certain way, persuade me. Especially if it concerns rights.

---

Same question I asked Mothra: should the state have any emergency powers?

---

Sure.

Should citizens have any rights?

---

What powers should the state have during a pandemic?

---

What rights should citizens have during a pandemic?

I'm trying to get you to talk about individual rights, because they have to be balanced against govt power/encroachment.

We weren't given the option of voluntarily following a protocol that balanced individual rights and state power. President Trump left a leadership vacuum and local leaders followed some of the worst examples ("I will exercise more power to protect you than that guy did."); we should have had national policies following the best protocols, since we got hit after so many other countries. We wasted the advantage our oceans gave us.

It is a novel seasonal virus. Australia's counts went up during their winter. Our counts are going up during our winter. It is obviously the people's fault that a seasonal virus exhibits the qualities of a seasonal virus.

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

---

What's your definition of authoritarian?

---

I know it when I see it. I see lockdowns as authoritarian.

Don't order me to behave a certain way, persuade me. Especially if it concerns rights.

---

Same question I asked Mothra: should the state have any emergency powers?

---

Sure.

Should citizens have any rights?

---

What powers should the state have during a pandemic?

---

Temporary powers aimed solely at ensure hospitals and health care professonals have adequate capacity to treat the afflicted without having to risk their lives and so workers deemed "essential" can do their jobs without risking their lives.

Emphasis on "temporary."

"Persuading" people is impossible when leaders engage in a campaign of disinformation that includes false talking points like "masks don't work to slow the spread" (they do), the virus is no worse than the flu (for some, it's much worse, even fatal, and it's hard to predict who), the virus is a hoax (if Trump didn't directly say it, he implied it in that way he has of making everything about him, as if the virus existed just to undermine his chances of reelection, and lots of his followers and staffer, including Mark Meadows, behaved similarly), and the virus will mysteriously disappear on election day (it didn't).

We either care about the collective health of everyone enough so we work together and agree to temporary restrictions designed to minimize case and deaths until we have a vaccine, or we have many more cases, a higher death toll and ultimately take a much greater economic hit--and possibly undermine, if not destroy, parts of our healthcare system and take a much harder economic hit due to the loss of productivity due to confusion and health issues--not just covid cases, but reduced access to other services and mental health issues, like anxiety and depression.

Some systems need to be cooperative and everybody needs to support them. In modern society, healthcare is one of them.

We're either going to get our act togehter on that, or we are going to lose out globally as employers go to other countries where they don't have to foot the bill for employee healthcare from a fragmented system that costs a lot more while delivering a worse result for many peope and that also takes so much time to deal with it reduces productivity and free time and increases aggravation and anxiety.

Or we're not.

If not, people might have greater freedom individually, but it'll be freedom to either not have access to healthcare that you can afford or do have acces to a byzantine system that you have to spend too much of your free time navigating and it's hard to know what will be paid for and what you'll be billed for and whether you'll be bankrupted if you get Covid because no temporary measures to protect you are in place.

Freedom from worry and bureaucracy and confusion is a valuable freedom, too.

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

---

What's your definition of authoritarian?

---

I know it when I see it. I see lockdowns as authoritarian.

Don't order me to behave a certain way, persuade me. Especially if it concerns rights.

---

Same question I asked Mothra: should the state have any emergency powers?

---

Sure.

Should citizens have any rights?

---

What powers should the state have during a pandemic?

---

What rights should citizens have during a pandemic?

I'm trying to get you to talk about individual rights, because they have to be balanced against govt power/encroachment.

We weren't given the option of voluntarily following a protocol that balanced individual rights and state power. President Trump left a leadership vacuum and local leaders followed some of the worst examples ("I will exercise more power to protect you than that guy did."); we should have had national policies following the best protocols, since we got hit after so many other countries. We wasted the advantage our oceans gave us.

---

I think the laws already on the books are an appropriate balance. I'm asking because you say they're not. What emergency powers should the law have provided?

Carlos Safety said:

---

It is a novel seasonal virus. Australia's counts went up during their winter. Our counts are going up during our winter. It is obviously the people's fault that a seasonal virus exhibits the qualities of a seasonal virus.

---

Novel and seasonal are disparate terms. The large number of susceptible hosts is by far the main factor in a novel virus pandemic, with little or no seasonal effect. For example covid peaked once in the spring, again in the summer, and now again in the fall.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Carlos Safety said:

---

It is a novel seasonal virus. Australia's counts went up during their winter. Our counts are going up during our winter. It is obviously the people's fault that a seasonal virus exhibits the qualities of a seasonal virus.

---

Novel and seasonal are disparate terms.

---

Yet here we are.

Sam Lowry said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Sam, it completely depends upon your opposing benchmark numbers. This had one side daily deaths other side daily cases. As long as those ranges remain consistent the reversal of trend lines is your decoupling. I can assure you that if they'd included April it would look even more dramatic. The fact they're following the lower trend pattern doesn't mean the death rate hasn't declined tremendously,

---

I agree that's it's declined. The point is that a lot of people are assuming we've gotten deaths under control such that they won't increase again along with cases. That's the whole idea of a "caseademic." It's a dangerous error.

---

We've got deaths and treatments under control at a base level. What we do NOT have under control is spread. If it weren't for the former and it were as out of control as it was in April our death counts would be extraordinarily higher.

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

---

Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

---

Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

---

What's your definition of authoritarian?

---

I know it when I see it. I see lockdowns as authoritarian.

Don't order me to behave a certain way, persuade me. Especially if it concerns rights.

---

Same question I asked Mothra: should the state have any emergency powers?

---

Sure.

Should citizens have any rights?

---

What powers should the state have during a pandemic?

---

What rights should citizens have during a pandemic?

I'm trying to get you to talk about individual rights, because they have to be balanced against govt power/encroachment.

We weren't given the option of voluntarily following a protocol that balanced individual rights and state power. President Trump left a leadership vacuum and local leaders followed some of the worst examples ("I will exercise more power to protect you than that guy did."); we should have had national policies following the best protocols, since we got hit after so many other countries. We wasted the advantage our oceans gave us.

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I think the laws already on the books are an appropriate balance. I'm asking because you say they're not. What emergency powers should the law have provided?

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I never said that, look again. Did you mean to reply to someone else?

quash said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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quash said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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quash said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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quash said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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quash said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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It's not disagreement that makes one a "Nazi" or "Communist." It's the policies they support.

For the record, despite our heated disagreements, I don't think you're either, but you (and Sam) do support authoritarian policies that I agree with Florida Mike I never would have thought you would have supported prior to this pandemic. It seems to support the age-old adage that people will trade freedom for security.

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Same policies that were on the books and supported by everyone until a few months ago.

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Still authoritarian and they weren't supported by everyone.

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What's your definition of authoritarian?

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I know it when I see it. I see lockdowns as authoritarian.

Don't order me to behave a certain way, persuade me. Especially if it concerns rights.

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Same question I asked Mothra: should the state have any emergency powers?

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Sure.

Should citizens have any rights?

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What powers should the state have during a pandemic?

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What rights should citizens have during a pandemic?

I'm trying to get you to talk about individual rights, because they have to be balanced against govt power/encroachment.

We weren't given the option of voluntarily following a protocol that balanced individual rights and state power. President Trump left a leadership vacuum and local leaders followed some of the worst examples ("I will exercise more power to protect you than that guy did."); we should have had national policies following the best protocols, since we got hit after so many other countries. We wasted the advantage our oceans gave us.

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I think the laws already on the books are an appropriate balance. I'm asking because you say they're not. What emergency powers should the law have provided?

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I never said that, look again. Did you mean to reply to someone else?

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Whatevs.

How long should politicians enjoy 'temporary emergency powers'? What is the time horizon for 'temporary' before it's effectively permanent? Is seasonally permanent or cyclically permanent or even structurally permanent fine, just as long as they keep saying it's temporary?

Bearitto said:

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How long should politicians enjoy 'temporary emergency powers'? What is the time horizon for 'temporary' before it's effectively permanent? Is seasonally permanent or cyclically permanent or even structurally permanent fine, just as long as they keep saying it's temporary?

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Until the weakest and most vulnerable feel safe.

Carlos Safety said:

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Bearitto said:

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How long should politicians enjoy 'temporary emergency powers'? What is the time horizon for 'temporary' before it's effectively permanent? Is seasonally permanent or cyclically permanent or even structurally permanent fine, just as long as they keep saying it's temporary?

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Until the weakest and most vulnerable feel safe.

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I keep telling you, you are safe. It's not authoritarianism.

Sam Lowry said:

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Carlos Safety said:

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Bearitto said:

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How long should politicians enjoy 'temporary emergency powers'? What is the time horizon for 'temporary' before it's effectively permanent? Is seasonally permanent or cyclically permanent or even structurally permanent fine, just as long as they keep saying it's temporary?

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Until the weakest and most vulnerable feel safe.

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I keep telling you, you are safe. It's not authoritarianism.

NOW GET BACK IN THE BOX!!!!

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FIFY...also noticed you didn't answer my question. Give it a shot.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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There are several posters here that need to go to Iowa and rescue these poor people. Its just a hoax thrown up by the democrats to steal the election. It will evaporate after Nov. 4th. Just ask readytowin and several others.

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Covid is here to stay with Biden and the Democrats. It is not going anywhere for the next two years for these two reasons:

1. The need for mail in voting. It worked beautifully for the Dems in the 2020 Election. For this reason, Covid will have an extended lifespan.

2. Need an excuse for Joe Biden's lack of travel abroad and not leaving the White House. Covid is the perfect excuse.


Yes, had Trump been the winner, funeral arrangements would already be being made for Covid.

Florda_mike said:

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Rawhide said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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How Many Americans Are About to Die?
A new analysis shows that the country is on track to pass spring's grimmest record.
Alexis C. Madrigal and Whet Moser
November 19, 2020

The United States has made huge advances in fighting the coronavirus. The astonishingly high death rates the country saw during the spring have fallen, and Americans are much more likely now than they were then to survive a COVID-19 hospitalization. New treatments have, in some cases, helped speed recovery - President Donald Trump has trumpeted his own bout with the virus as proof that there is a "cure" for the illness. (There is not.) These developments have given Americans the impression that no matter how high cases surge, deaths might not reach the heights of the spring.

But the truth is grimmer. The story people want to believe about how much treatments have improved in recent months does not hold up to quantitative scrutiny.

The U.S. health-care system has not reduced the deadliness of the coronavirus since July, according to a new estimate by a prominent COVID-19 researcher, which accounts for the lags in public reporting of cases and deaths. Instead, the virus has, with ruthless regularity, killed at least 1.5 percent of all Americans diagnosed with COVID-19 over the past four months.

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So let's throw away our freedoms, set a precedent for the govt. to take away people's livelihoods and lock down forever.

And let's also outlaw driving, guns and fast food since they also kill lots of people. SMDH.

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Don't forget about alcohol! It's responsible for tens of thousands of avoidable deaths per year!

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Don't forget sports!

Oh, they've pretty eliminated that too for most of us!

Dam Dempanic! Not Pandemic ........ Dempanic

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You guys have boycotted most sports anyways, so who cares.

Buddha Bear said:

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Florda_mike said:

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Rawhide said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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How Many Americans Are About to Die?
A new analysis shows that the country is on track to pass spring's grimmest record.
Alexis C. Madrigal and Whet Moser
November 19, 2020

The United States has made huge advances in fighting the coronavirus. The astonishingly high death rates the country saw during the spring have fallen, and Americans are much more likely now than they were then to survive a COVID-19 hospitalization. New treatments have, in some cases, helped speed recovery - President Donald Trump has trumpeted his own bout with the virus as proof that there is a "cure" for the illness. (There is not.) These developments have given Americans the impression that no matter how high cases surge, deaths might not reach the heights of the spring.

But the truth is grimmer. The story people want to believe about how much treatments have improved in recent months does not hold up to quantitative scrutiny.

The U.S. health-care system has not reduced the deadliness of the coronavirus since July, according to a new estimate by a prominent COVID-19 researcher, which accounts for the lags in public reporting of cases and deaths. Instead, the virus has, with ruthless regularity, killed at least 1.5 percent of all Americans diagnosed with COVID-19 over the past four months.

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So let's throw away our freedoms, set a precedent for the govt. to take away people's livelihoods and lock down forever.

And let's also outlaw driving, guns and fast food since they also kill lots of people. SMDH.

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Don't forget about alcohol! It's responsible for tens of thousands of avoidable deaths per year!

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Don't forget sports!

Oh, they've pretty eliminated that too for most of us!

Dam Dempanic! Not Pandemic ........ Dempanic

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You guys have boycotted most sports anyways, so who cares.

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Isn't that the point? No sports because, politics

Bearitto said:

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How long should politicians enjoy 'temporary emergency powers'? What is the time horizon for 'temporary' before it's effectively permanent? Is seasonally permanent or cyclically permanent or even structurally permanent fine, just as long as they keep saying it's temporary?

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Here is your answer my friend...

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-imposing-certain-sanctions-event-foreign-interference-united-states-election/

Sam Lowry said:

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Carlos Safety said:

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Bearitto said:

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How long should politicians enjoy 'temporary emergency powers'? What is the time horizon for 'temporary' before it's effectively permanent? Is seasonally permanent or cyclically permanent or even structurally permanent fine, just as long as they keep saying it's temporary?

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Until the weakest and most vulnerable feel safe.

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I keep telling you, you are safe. It's not authoritarianism.

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Then we don't need the new regs. And you can stop whining and worrying.

Carlos Safety said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Carlos Safety said:

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Bearitto said:

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How long should politicians enjoy 'temporary emergency powers'? What is the time horizon for 'temporary' before it's effectively permanent? Is seasonally permanent or cyclically permanent or even structurally permanent fine, just as long as they keep saying it's temporary?

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Until the weakest and most vulnerable feel safe.

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I keep telling you, you are safe. It's not authoritarianism.

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Then we don't need the new regs. And you can stop whining and worrying.

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Tell it to the doctors.

Sam Lowry said:

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Carlos Safety said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Carlos Safety said:

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Bearitto said:

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How long should politicians enjoy 'temporary emergency powers'? What is the time horizon for 'temporary' before it's effectively permanent? Is seasonally permanent or cyclically permanent or even structurally permanent fine, just as long as they keep saying it's temporary?

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Until the weakest and most vulnerable feel safe.

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I keep telling you, you are safe. It's not authoritarianism.

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Then we don't need the new regs. And you can stop whining and worrying.

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Tell it to the doctors.

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Telling it to you and political class. And just basically not complying.