TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

The medical community acts in a similar way. The Pharma complex does not hesitate to seek profit, for example, whether or not it is the best treatment for the patient.

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, in your example, culture is NOT using science to define what is "right"; it is merely using it to determine a path to extending life and reducing physical pain and suffering. You are making an a priori presupposition that doing this is "right", before you've even defined what "right" is. This is a fallacy of circular logic.

This will be the essential flaw of any argument you will bring that says "right" can be defined by, or through the use of, science.

One benefit of religion is that it does a better job of setting up an apparently objective meaning of concepts like Justice and Right. Human history shows we have always had to contend with people in power who did as they pleased; Monarchy boils down to a small group of people controlling everything in their country, from who owns what to who lives and dies. The fact that we somehow escaped that condition to one where nations at least claim to respect individual rights. Secularists will never admit it, but Religion played a big part in that change.

The first hospitals, the first free schools for education, the first protests against Slavery, these were all begun by religious groups, and simply because the religious had a view of "right" which was more in line with what we generally believe today than what was fashionable at the time.

History is replete with religious leaders who stood up against tyrants and Injustice, from Thomas Becket to MLK Jr. and oh so many in between.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
There is a very old notion in the Church--from Origen in the early 4th. Century-- suggesting that God may not rest until even Satan repents and returns to God. Christians will disagree continuously about this, but the key to the idea is that all may enter heaven upon their personal faith/acceptance. If the buddhist or atheist who lives a good life comes before Christ, it is conceivable that he or she may be allowed to turnabout (repentance) proclaim faith and enter. The important factor is this is a wholly Christian concept: this is not the unbeliever loophole you seem to think it is. - You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist. You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

We should all agree that we live under the laws of probability. Consequently there are people of all religions as well as atheists doing good in the world. There is also a tragic number of self proclaimed Christians doing evil. Being a Christian does not automatically make me better, smarter, or give me a better command of grammar, etc. Faith makes me want to be better, but a good deal of the work is up to me. -

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

The medical community acts in a similar way. The Pharma complex does not hesitate to seek profit, for example, whether or not it is the best treatment for the patient.

---

Quote:

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

---

That's exactly what I said. Culture defines right and wrong, Culture can use science to make that definition, or it can use some other arbitrary method, like Islam.

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

The medical community acts in a similar way. The Pharma complex does not hesitate to seek profit, for example, whether or not it is the best treatment for the patient.

---

Quote:

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

---

That's exactly what I said. Culture defines right and wrong, Culture can use science to make that definition, or it can use some other arbitrary method, like Islam.

---

Right and wrong are not scientific concepts. Anyone who claims to use science to define them is smuggling definitions in from somewhere else.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, in your example, culture is NOT using science to define what is "right"; it is merely using it to determine a path to extending life and reducing physical pain and suffering. You are making an a priori presupposition that doing this is "right", before you've even defined what "right" is. This is a fallacy of circular logic.

This will be the essential flaw of any argument you will bring that says "right" can be defined by, or through the use of, science.

---

Sure it is. A medical doctor will determine the right thing to do for a ruptured appendix would be an appendectomy as opposed to prayer, because science supports the efficacy of an appendectomy over the efficacy of prayer. The medical community (culture) has determined through science the right protocol for a ruptured appendix. I don't know any doctor who would tell the patent to go home and pray about it. It is far better to use science to determine what is right, as opposed to manmade religious assertions.

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, in your example, culture is NOT using science to define what is "right"; it is merely using it to determine a path to extending life and reducing physical pain and suffering. You are making an a priori presupposition that doing this is "right", before you've even defined what "right" is. This is a fallacy of circular logic.

This will be the essential flaw of any argument you will bring that says "right" can be defined by, or through the use of, science.

---

Sure it is. A medical doctor will determine the right thing to do for a ruptured appendix would be an appendectomy as opposed to prayer, because science supports the efficacy of an appendectomy over the efficacy of prayer. The medical community (culture) has determined through science the right protocol for a ruptured appendix. I don't know any doctor who would tell the patent to go home and pray about it. It is far better to use science to determine what is right, as opposed to manmade religious assertions.

---

You're only explaining how science can be used to repair a ruptured appendix, not how science can define what "right" is.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

The medical community acts in a similar way. The Pharma complex does not hesitate to seek profit, for example, whether or not it is the best treatment for the patient.

---

Quote:

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

---

That's exactly what I said. Culture defines right and wrong, Culture can use science to make that definition, or it can use some other arbitrary method, like Islam.

---

Incorrect, you said Science is used to define Right and Wrong. I said the people in power use (and sometimes abuse) Science to compel something as 'Right' or 'Wrong' simply because it serves their personal intentions.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, in your example, culture is NOT using science to define what is "right"; it is merely using it to determine a path to extending life and reducing physical pain and suffering. You are making an a priori presupposition that doing this is "right", before you've even defined what "right" is. This is a fallacy of circular logic.

This will be the essential flaw of any argument you will bring that says "right" can be defined by, or through the use of, science.

---

Sure it is. A medical doctor will determine the right thing to do for a ruptured appendix would be an appendectomy as opposed to prayer, because science supports the efficacy of an appendectomy over the efficacy of prayer. The medical community (culture) has determined through science the right protocol for a ruptured appendix. I don't know any doctor who would tell the patent to go home and pray about it. It is far better to use science to determine what is right, as opposed to manmade religious assertions.

---

You're only explaining how science can be used to repair a ruptured appendix, not how science can define what "right" is.

---

I never said science defines what is right. People within the context of culture define what is right. People can use science to make that definition, or they can use something else.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

---

I'm using a simplistic explanation, for those who didn't go to college. But to your, question, I don't think the function, if any remaining, of the appendix, has been fully determined. It is speculated that it may serve a bacterial role in the intestinal tract. It remains unknown. Regardless, if the body were perfectly designed, we wouldn't have appendicitis, cancer, vision loss, back ailments etc. Science can be used to determine the right thing to do in successfully treating these maladies. Prayer, not so much.

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

The medical community acts in a similar way. The Pharma complex does not hesitate to seek profit, for example, whether or not it is the best treatment for the patient.

---

Quote:

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

---

That's exactly what I said. Culture defines right and wrong, Culture can use science to make that definition, or it can use some other arbitrary method, like Islam.

---

Incorrect, you said Science is used to define Right and Wrong. I said the people in power use (and sometimes abuse) Science to compel something as 'Right' or 'Wrong' simply because it serves their personal intentions.

---

You need to slow down and read what I said: "But science can be used by culture to define what is right," - no different from what you said. Culture can use science to define right or wrong.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

---

I'm using a simplistic explanation, for those who didn't go to college. But to your, question, I don't think the function, if any remaining, of the appendix, has been fully determined. It is speculated that it may serve a bacterial role in the intestinal tract. It remains unknown. Regardless, if the body were perfectly designed, we wouldn't have appendicitis, cancer, vision loss, back ailments etc. Science can be used to determine the right thing to do in successfully treating these maladies. Prayer, not so much.

---

So to clarify, your argument is known by you, to be disputed?

Assuming a creator God (which I know is a stretch for you but for the sake of this discussion, please try anyway) you believe the body digestive track was designed for processed foods - cancer and the spine for overweight couch-potatoes to do occasional physical work?

If I asked you why we don't have enough water and questioned nature's design, you'd point out the growing population, weather changes and the water-cycle as some of the issues. You'd explain that much of that water has just changed forms to vapor. Yet, you will not consider those types of changes to be considered when you argue against perfection from a designer God. That seems a bit dishonest to me. Maybe, not being a believer, your are cool with that type of hypocrisy. It happens to be one of the things Christians try to grow out of with their faith. You do you.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

---

I'm using a simplistic explanation, for those who didn't go to college. But to your, question, I don't think the function, if any remaining, of the appendix, has been fully determined. It is speculated that it may serve a bacterial role in the intestinal tract. It remains unknown. Regardless, if the body were perfectly designed, we wouldn't have appendicitis, cancer, vision loss, back ailments etc. Science can be used to determine the right thing to do in successfully treating these maladies. Prayer, not so much.

---

So to clarify, your argument is known by you, to be disputed?

Assuming a creator God (which I know is a stretch for you but for the sake of this discussion, please try anyway) you believe the body digestive track was designed for processed foods - cancer and the spine for overweight couch-potatoes to do occasional physical work?

If I asked you why we don't have enough water and questioned nature's design, you'd point out the growing population, weather changes and the water-cycle as the issue. You'd explain that much of that water has just changed forms to vapor. Yet, you will not consider those types of changes to be considered when you argue against perfection from a designer God. That seems a bit dishonest to me. Maybe, not being a believer, your are cool with that type of hypocrisy. It happens to be one of the things Christians try to grow out of with their faith. You do you.

---

No. I don't think you don't understand my argument.

I don't believe the body's digestive tract was designed through evolution or by a creator for processed foods... .
The body is not perfect because it evolved. Look at how many back surgeries we have each year. If it was designed by a creator, as you claim, it is flawed in many ways. Why would a perfect creator create such a flawed entity in his image? Is that the best he/she can do? Is the creator flawed? Or, maybe there is no creator, just evolution.

No, I accept what we observe about nature and try to understand how nature works. I don't explain the unknown as God did it. Rather, where hypocrisy comes in to play, for example, is when the religious proclaim the power of faith and prayer, yet rely upon medical science for their health.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

---

I'm using a simplistic explanation, for those who didn't go to college. But to your, question, I don't think the function, if any remaining, of the appendix, has been fully determined. It is speculated that it may serve a bacterial role in the intestinal tract. It remains unknown. Regardless, if the body were perfectly designed, we wouldn't have appendicitis, cancer, vision loss, back ailments etc. Science can be used to determine the right thing to do in successfully treating these maladies. Prayer, not so much.

---

So to clarify, your argument is known by you, to be disputed?

Assuming a creator God (which I know is a stretch for you but for the sake of this discussion, please try anyway) you believe the body digestive track was designed for processed foods - cancer and the spine for overweight couch-potatoes to do occasional physical work?

If I asked you why we don't have enough water and questioned nature's design, you'd point out the growing population, weather changes and the water-cycle as the issue. You'd explain that much of that water has just changed forms to vapor. Yet, you will not consider those types of changes to be considered when you argue against perfection from a designer God. That seems a bit dishonest to me. Maybe, not being a believer, your are cool with that type of hypocrisy. It happens to be one of the things Christians try to grow out of with their faith. You do you.

---

No. I don't think you don't understand my argument.

I don't believe the body's digestive tract was designed through evolution or by a creator for processed foods... .
The body is not perfect because it evolved. Look at how many back surgeries we have each year. If it was designed by a creator, as you claim, it is flawed in many ways. Why would a perfect creator create such a flawed entity in his image? Is that the best he/she can do? Is the creator flawed? Or, maybe there is no creator, just evolution.

No, I accept what we observe about nature and try to understand how nature works. I don't explain the unknown as God did it. Rather, where hypocrisy comes in to play, for example, is when the religious proclaim the power of faith and prayer, yet rely upon medical science for their health.

---

Is the back flawed or the 5'9", 205lbs guy, who does very little physical work flawed by being so out of shape?

"Created in His image" is not physical image. I thought you knew this. Or, is this more hypocrisy?

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

---

I'm using a simplistic explanation, for those who didn't go to college. But to your, question, I don't think the function, if any remaining, of the appendix, has been fully determined. It is speculated that it may serve a bacterial role in the intestinal tract. It remains unknown. Regardless, if the body were perfectly designed, we wouldn't have appendicitis, cancer, vision loss, back ailments etc. Science can be used to determine the right thing to do in successfully treating these maladies. Prayer, not so much.

---

So to clarify, your argument is known by you, to be disputed?

Assuming a creator God (which I know is a stretch for you but for the sake of this discussion, please try anyway) you believe the body digestive track was designed for processed foods - cancer and the spine for overweight couch-potatoes to do occasional physical work?

If I asked you why we don't have enough water and questioned nature's design, you'd point out the growing population, weather changes and the water-cycle as the issue. You'd explain that much of that water has just changed forms to vapor. Yet, you will not consider those types of changes to be considered when you argue against perfection from a designer God. That seems a bit dishonest to me. Maybe, not being a believer, your are cool with that type of hypocrisy. It happens to be one of the things Christians try to grow out of with their faith. You do you.

---

No. I don't think you don't understand my argument.

I don't believe the body's digestive tract was designed through evolution or by a creator for processed foods... .
The body is not perfect because it evolved. Look at how many back surgeries we have each year. If it was designed by a creator, as you claim, it is flawed in many ways. Why would a perfect creator create such a flawed entity in his image? Is that the best he/she can do? Is the creator flawed? Or, maybe there is no creator, just evolution.

No, I accept what we observe about nature and try to understand how nature works. I don't explain the unknown as God did it. Rather, where hypocrisy comes in to play, for example, is when the religious proclaim the power of faith and prayer, yet rely upon medical science for their health.

---

regarding your final paragraph, I believe you are confusing Christian Science with Christianity when Christian Science is neither Christian nor science.

By your analogy, when Jesus told his apostles to drop the net one more time on the other side of the boat and they caught an amount of fish that nearly sank the boat, they shouldn't have used the net or the boat.

I guess when we pray for wisdom, we shouldn't expect to use our brains.

So "cresated in God's image" is an analogy?

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

The medical community acts in a similar way. The Pharma complex does not hesitate to seek profit, for example, whether or not it is the best treatment for the patient.

---

Quote:

---

No, Science can be used by Culture, indeed, but it does not define right or wrong, Culture seeks to control behavior according to the goals and purposes of those in power.

---

That's exactly what I said. Culture defines right and wrong, Culture can use science to make that definition, or it can use some other arbitrary method, like Islam.

---

Incorrect, you said Science is used to define Right and Wrong. I said the people in power use (and sometimes abuse) Science to compel something as 'Right' or 'Wrong' simply because it serves their personal intentions.

---

You need to slow down and read what I said: "But science can be used by culture to define what is right," - no different from what you said. Culture can use science to define right or wrong.

---

Vice versa, you keep ignoring what I said. Culture does not define Right or Wrong, but tries to compel behavior that serves the personal goals of a few, and they use Science as a weapon to do so.

Texas Scientist 1
Classic Theism 0

Texas Scientist 1
New Process Theism 1

Process philosophy and theology as formulated by Alfred North Whitehead sees a world without a creator Biblical God.
Whitehead's metaphysics examines the universe of continuous change that is constantly coming into being by and through physics, chemistry and biology. Humankind responds to these phenomenon with decisions and becomes a part of the creative process of this ever changing universe.

So what about this Biblical creator God? That God creator God functions as analogy to the God - human relationship. Rightly understood the Biblical God informs us (we?) Christians of our infinite worth in God's eyes and in our our eyes towards all other humans. Later this in the bible this creator God reveals itself in love in Jesus Christ but not a classical theistic understanding. Again God in Jesus Christ is an analogy of infinite love and worth but not the miraculous or mysterious unknowable.

Texas Scientist wins out against classical theism but he desires not to involve himself the analogous process theology God.
He is still of infinite worth and love.

Waco1947 said:

---

So "cresated in God's image" is an analogy?

---

it doesn't refer to physical image, "preacher".

Waco1947 said:

---

Texas Scientist 1
Classic Theism 0

Texas Scientist 1
New Process Theism 1

Process philosophy and theology as formulated by Alfred North Whitehead sees a world without a creator Biblical God.
Whitehead's metaphysics examines the universe of continuous change that is constantly coming into being by and through physics, chemistry and biology. Humankind responds to these phenomenon with decisions and becomes a part of the creative process of this ever changing universe.

So what about this Biblical creator God? That God creator God functions as analogy to the God - human relationship. Rightly understood the Biblical God informs us (we?) Christians of our infinite worth in God's eyes and in our our eyes towards all other humans. Later this in the bible this creator God reveals itself in love in Jesus Christ but not a classical theistic understanding. Again God in Jesus Christ is an analogy of infinite love and worth but not the miraculous or mysterious unknowable.

Texas Scientist wins out against classical theism but he desires not to involve himself the analogous process theology God.
He is still of infinite worth and love.

---

Here is your analogy: Sometimes when I flush, it leaves streaks.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Texas Scientist 1
Classic Theism 0

Texas Scientist 1
New Process Theism 1

Process philosophy and theology as formulated by Alfred North Whitehead sees a world without a creator Biblical God.
Whitehead's metaphysics examines the universe of continuous change that is constantly coming into being by and through physics, chemistry and biology. Humankind responds to these phenomenon with decisions and becomes a part of the creative process of this ever changing universe.

So what about this Biblical creator God? That God creator God functions as analogy to the God - human relationship. Rightly understood the Biblical God informs us (we?) Christians of our infinite worth in God's eyes and in our our eyes towards all other humans. Later this in the bible this creator God reveals itself in love in Jesus Christ but not a classical theistic understanding. Again God in Jesus Christ is an analogy of infinite love and worth but not the miraculous or mysterious unknowable.

Texas Scientist wins out against classical theism but he desires not to involve himself the analogous process theology God.
He is still of infinite worth and love.

---

Here is your analogy: Sometimes when I flush, it leaves streaks.

---

How does a Christian respond to dialogue? I thank rational, critical thinking is the key.

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Texas Scientist 1
Classic Theism 0

Texas Scientist 1
New Process Theism 1

Process philosophy and theology as formulated by Alfred North Whitehead sees a world without a creator Biblical God.
Whitehead's metaphysics examines the universe of continuous change that is constantly coming into being by and through physics, chemistry and biology. Humankind responds to these phenomenon with decisions and becomes a part of the creative process of this ever changing universe.

So what about this Biblical creator God? That God creator God functions as analogy to the God - human relationship. Rightly understood the Biblical God informs us (we?) Christians of our infinite worth in God's eyes and in our our eyes towards all other humans. Later this in the bible this creator God reveals itself in love in Jesus Christ but not a classical theistic understanding. Again God in Jesus Christ is an analogy of infinite love and worth but not the miraculous or mysterious unknowable.

Texas Scientist wins out against classical theism but he desires not to involve himself the analogous process theology God.
He is still of infinite worth and love.

---

Here is your analogy: Sometimes when I flush, it leaves streaks.

---

How does a Christian respond to dialogue? I thank rational, critical thinking is the key.

---

Yes, we were having a discussion before you reintroduced your god Whitehead. I thought flushing was the polite thing to do.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

---

I'm using a simplistic explanation, for those who didn't go to college. But to your, question, I don't think the function, if any remaining, of the appendix, has been fully determined. It is speculated that it may serve a bacterial role in the intestinal tract. It remains unknown. Regardless, if the body were perfectly designed, we wouldn't have appendicitis, cancer, vision loss, back ailments etc. Science can be used to determine the right thing to do in successfully treating these maladies. Prayer, not so much.

---

So to clarify, your argument is known by you, to be disputed?

Assuming a creator God (which I know is a stretch for you but for the sake of this discussion, please try anyway) you believe the body digestive track was designed for processed foods - cancer and the spine for overweight couch-potatoes to do occasional physical work?

If I asked you why we don't have enough water and questioned nature's design, you'd point out the growing population, weather changes and the water-cycle as the issue. You'd explain that much of that water has just changed forms to vapor. Yet, you will not consider those types of changes to be considered when you argue against perfection from a designer God. That seems a bit dishonest to me. Maybe, not being a believer, your are cool with that type of hypocrisy. It happens to be one of the things Christians try to grow out of with their faith. You do you.

---

No. I don't think you don't understand my argument.

I don't believe the body's digestive tract was designed through evolution or by a creator for processed foods... .
The body is not perfect because it evolved. Look at how many back surgeries we have each year. If it was designed by a creator, as you claim, it is flawed in many ways. Why would a perfect creator create such a flawed entity in his image? Is that the best he/she can do? Is the creator flawed? Or, maybe there is no creator, just evolution.

No, I accept what we observe about nature and try to understand how nature works. I don't explain the unknown as God did it. Rather, where hypocrisy comes in to play, for example, is when the religious proclaim the power of faith and prayer, yet rely upon medical science for their health.

---

Is the back flawed or the 5'9", 205lbs guy, who does very little physical work flawed by being so out of shape?

"Created in His image" is not physical image. I thought you knew this. Or, is this more hypocrisy?

---

Inherently flawed. Being out of shape and overweight exacerbates the problem.

How do you know it's not physical image? Where does it say that? And what do you interpret it to mean, if not literally? You might want to check the definition of hypocrisy.

TS: "How do you know it's not physical image? "

Common sense, actually. The Middle East has, since at least the days when the OT was written, been an area where many nations traveled. Being a geographical connection between Africa, Asia, and Europe, anyone could see a variety of skin tones, height, muscular build, hair, and many other physical features.

No one would have assumed Scripture meant 'physical image' except racists who imagined only their race met the standard. But anyone familiar with Hebrew culture to any degree would know that was not the case here.

One might as absurdly argue that Beethoven only considered the piano an orchestral instrument.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

---

I'm using a simplistic explanation, for those who didn't go to college. But to your, question, I don't think the function, if any remaining, of the appendix, has been fully determined. It is speculated that it may serve a bacterial role in the intestinal tract. It remains unknown. Regardless, if the body were perfectly designed, we wouldn't have appendicitis, cancer, vision loss, back ailments etc. Science can be used to determine the right thing to do in successfully treating these maladies. Prayer, not so much.

---

So to clarify, your argument is known by you, to be disputed?

Assuming a creator God (which I know is a stretch for you but for the sake of this discussion, please try anyway) you believe the body digestive track was designed for processed foods - cancer and the spine for overweight couch-potatoes to do occasional physical work?

If I asked you why we don't have enough water and questioned nature's design, you'd point out the growing population, weather changes and the water-cycle as the issue. You'd explain that much of that water has just changed forms to vapor. Yet, you will not consider those types of changes to be considered when you argue against perfection from a designer God. That seems a bit dishonest to me. Maybe, not being a believer, your are cool with that type of hypocrisy. It happens to be one of the things Christians try to grow out of with their faith. You do you.

---

No. I don't think you don't understand my argument.

I don't believe the body's digestive tract was designed through evolution or by a creator for processed foods... .
The body is not perfect because it evolved. Look at how many back surgeries we have each year. If it was designed by a creator, as you claim, it is flawed in many ways. Why would a perfect creator create such a flawed entity in his image? Is that the best he/she can do? Is the creator flawed? Or, maybe there is no creator, just evolution.

No, I accept what we observe about nature and try to understand how nature works. I don't explain the unknown as God did it. Rather, where hypocrisy comes in to play, for example, is when the religious proclaim the power of faith and prayer, yet rely upon medical science for their health.

---

regarding your final paragraph, I believe you are confusing Christian Science with Christianity when Christian Science is neither Christian nor science.

By your analogy, when Jesus told his apostles to drop the net one more time on the other side of the boat and they caught an amount of fish that nearly sank the boat, they shouldn't have used the net or the boat.

I guess when we pray for wisdom, we shouldn't expect to use our brains.

---

Who says they're not Christian?

Matthew 7:7, John 14:13-14, John 16:23-24, 1John 5:14-15 It's pretty clear you shouldn't need medical care if you pray.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

---

I'm using a simplistic explanation, for those who didn't go to college. But to your, question, I don't think the function, if any remaining, of the appendix, has been fully determined. It is speculated that it may serve a bacterial role in the intestinal tract. It remains unknown. Regardless, if the body were perfectly designed, we wouldn't have appendicitis, cancer, vision loss, back ailments etc. Science can be used to determine the right thing to do in successfully treating these maladies. Prayer, not so much.

---

So to clarify, your argument is known by you, to be disputed?

Assuming a creator God (which I know is a stretch for you but for the sake of this discussion, please try anyway) you believe the body digestive track was designed for processed foods - cancer and the spine for overweight couch-potatoes to do occasional physical work?

If I asked you why we don't have enough water and questioned nature's design, you'd point out the growing population, weather changes and the water-cycle as the issue. You'd explain that much of that water has just changed forms to vapor. Yet, you will not consider those types of changes to be considered when you argue against perfection from a designer God. That seems a bit dishonest to me. Maybe, not being a believer, your are cool with that type of hypocrisy. It happens to be one of the things Christians try to grow out of with their faith. You do you.

---

No. I don't think you don't understand my argument.

I don't believe the body's digestive tract was designed through evolution or by a creator for processed foods... .
The body is not perfect because it evolved. Look at how many back surgeries we have each year. If it was designed by a creator, as you claim, it is flawed in many ways. Why would a perfect creator create such a flawed entity in his image? Is that the best he/she can do? Is the creator flawed? Or, maybe there is no creator, just evolution.

No, I accept what we observe about nature and try to understand how nature works. I don't explain the unknown as God did it. Rather, where hypocrisy comes in to play, for example, is when the religious proclaim the power of faith and prayer, yet rely upon medical science for their health.

---

regarding your final paragraph, I believe you are confusing Christian Science with Christianity when Christian Science is neither Christian nor science.

By your analogy, when Jesus told his apostles to drop the net one more time on the other side of the boat and they caught an amount of fish that nearly sank the boat, they shouldn't have used the net or the boat.

I guess when we pray for wisdom, we shouldn't expect to use our brains.

---

Who says they're not Christian?

Matthew 7:7, John 14:13-14, John 16:23-24, 1John 5:14-15 It's pretty clear you shouldn't need medical care if you pray.

---

Their theology says they're not.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Confession and repentance make me better person.

---

So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

---

Buddhists don't need him. I do.

---

No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

---

What result?

---

You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

---

That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

---

That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

---

But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

---

and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

---

If the body had perfect 'design' it wouldn't need an appendectomy for an appendix that has no real apparant purpose. AMAZING. Evolution isn't perfect. We can solve appendicitis with an appendectomy, but we can't with prayer. PRETTY AMAZING.

---

The appendix is a reservoir for good bacteria. It's a great design for its purpose. Don't take it from me though as I never graduated college.

"Your appendix serves as a reservoir for "good" bacteria. These "good" bacteria, called probiotics, are living bacterial organisms that benefit your body and digestive system. Probiotics exist naturally in your gut. Probiotics, similar to those that the body produces, can also be found in some foods."

I figured a scientist would know this. Did you even go to college? Do you simply identify as a "scientist"?

---

I'm using a simplistic explanation, for those who didn't go to college. But to your, question, I don't think the function, if any remaining, of the appendix, has been fully determined. It is speculated that it may serve a bacterial role in the intestinal tract. It remains unknown. Regardless, if the body were perfectly designed, we wouldn't have appendicitis, cancer, vision loss, back ailments etc. Science can be used to determine the right thing to do in successfully treating these maladies. Prayer, not so much.

---

So to clarify, your argument is known by you, to be disputed?

Assuming a creator God (which I know is a stretch for you but for the sake of this discussion, please try anyway) you believe the body digestive track was designed for processed foods - cancer and the spine for overweight couch-potatoes to do occasional physical work?

If I asked you why we don't have enough water and questioned nature's design, you'd point out the growing population, weather changes and the water-cycle as the issue. You'd explain that much of that water has just changed forms to vapor. Yet, you will not consider those types of changes to be considered when you argue against perfection from a designer God. That seems a bit dishonest to me. Maybe, not being a believer, your are cool with that type of hypocrisy. It happens to be one of the things Christians try to grow out of with their faith. You do you.

---

No. I don't think you don't understand my argument.

I don't believe the body's digestive tract was designed through evolution or by a creator for processed foods... .
The body is not perfect because it evolved. Look at how many back surgeries we have each year. If it was designed by a creator, as you claim, it is flawed in many ways. Why would a perfect creator create such a flawed entity in his image? Is that the best he/she can do? Is the creator flawed? Or, maybe there is no creator, just evolution.

No, I accept what we observe about nature and try to understand how nature works. I don't explain the unknown as God did it. Rather, where hypocrisy comes in to play, for example, is when the religious proclaim the power of faith and prayer, yet rely upon medical science for their health.

---

Is the back flawed or the 5'9", 205lbs guy, who does very little physical work flawed by being so out of shape?

"Created in His image" is not physical image. I thought you knew this. Or, is this more hypocrisy?

---

Inherently flawed. Being out of shape and overweight exacerbates the problem.

How do you know it's not physical image? Where does it say that? And what do you interpret it to mean, if not literally? You might want to check the definition of hypocrisy.

---

God is Spirit.

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: "How do you know it's not physical image? "

Common sense, actually. The Middle East has, since at least the days when the OT was written, been an area where many nations traveled. Being a geographical connection between Africa, Asia, and Europe, anyone could see a variety of skin tones, height, muscular build, hair, and many other physical features.

No one would have assumed Scripture meant 'physical image' except racists who imagined only their race met the standard. But anyone familiar with Hebrew culture to any degree would know that was not the case here.

One might as absurdly argue that Beethoven only considered the piano an orchestral instrument.

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Or, it's just one more example of the many that demonstrate the texts compiled by clergy, were written by primitive people with limited understanding and creative imaginations, in order to provide common beliefs and answers about the world and life, and to bring structure and order to their culture.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TexasScientist said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Confession and repentance make me better person.

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So can eating right, exercising, and attending a Tony Robbins seminar.
So can attaining Buddhist enlightenment.

At least to those who believe that, right?

So why do we need Jesus?

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Buddhists don't need him. I do.

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No, you don't. Not if you're saying you can achieve the exact same results a number of other ways.

Right?

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What result?

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You tell us- what result can you obtain being a follower of Jesus, that you can't obtain with anything else?

- You say everyone gets eternal life in heaven, so that's not it.
- You said that you help the poor and abused, but you can do that with any other belief, or even as an atheist.
- You said that holding on to "sins" like bitterness and ignoring the poor weighs your soul down, but you can let go of bitterness and help the poor without having to believe in Jesus.
- You said that it makes you a better person, but you can be a better person through other means.

So, I haven't heard any reason why someone needs to follow Jesus. You said Buddhists don't need him - so that means you can denounce your faith right now and become a Buddhist, and then you wouldn't need Jesus. You'd be able to do all the above, and even have eternal life in heaven. So that means by definition, Jesus is not necessary, i.e. you don't need Jesus. Right?

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That's right. You don't need any religion to do right.

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That is correct. And science can't define what is "right".

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But science can be used by culture to define what is right, as opposed to religious cultural edicts. It's part of the reason why the medical community will prescribe an appendectomy for a ruptured appendix in lieu of prayer.

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and they are able to do that appendectomy because the body has order and design. AMAZING

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Achieved without any skydaddy magic. Truly amazing.

A real scientist would consider all the evidence, not just what he can twist into a false claim to suit his mood.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Texas Scientist 1
Classic Theism 0

Texas Scientist 1
New Process Theism 1

Process philosophy and theology as formulated by Alfred North Whitehead sees a world without a creator Biblical God.
Whitehead's metaphysics examines the universe of continuous change that is constantly coming into being by and through physics, chemistry and biology. Humankind responds to these phenomenon with decisions and becomes a part of the creative process of this ever changing universe.

So what about this Biblical creator God? That God creator God functions as analogy to the God - human relationship. Rightly understood the Biblical God informs us (we?) Christians of our infinite worth in God's eyes and in our our eyes towards all other humans. Later this in the bible this creator God reveals itself in love in Jesus Christ but not a classical theistic understanding. Again God in Jesus Christ is an analogy of infinite love and worth but not the miraculous or mysterious unknowable.

Texas Scientist wins out against classical theism but he desires not to involve himself the analogous process theology God.
He is still of infinite worth and love.

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Here is your analogy: Sometimes when I flush, it leaves streaks.

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How does a Christian respond to dialogue? I thank rational, critical thinking is the key.

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Yes, we were having a discussion before you reintroduced your god Whitehead. I thought flushing was the polite thing to do.

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Whitehead is not my God. " Flushing" is not helpful to dialogue. Address the comment not the story on your head. Read the comment me respond to it not me.