Here is Baylor's Letter To Briles

141,594 Views | 978 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by Malbec
Forest Bueller
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Keyser Soze said:

Oldbear83 said:

BU84BEAR said:

Oldbear83 said:

BU84BEAR said:



I'm not trying Briles in court. I'm questioning just why the wording of his letter is so specific

I have no problem if he works again in the pros.
I have no problem with Briles working as a head coach or coordinator, anywhere he wants.


Well my feelings on that would depend if anything were ever proven against him. I do realize that is not likely, but until a couple of lawsuits and trials play out it is possible.
There has been more than enough time for evidence to show up against Art Briles, if any existed.

I am more convinced than ever that he was scapegoated, and for that I will never forgive the BOR.
You are being willfully uninformed. Just spend some time reading. Below is the detail behind the Findings of Fact. What everyone was asking for, yet few have taken the time to read.

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/wacotrib.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/ac/bacc361a-e9b5-11e6-ad87-5fd2d6e674d8/5893e6dfbdcf3.pdf.pdf







Isn't it joyful to be able to ramble on for 54 pages with no rebuttal or correction of statements and just get to say what you want to say, and nobody can adjust what you say for accuracy.

These 54 pages are no more accurate than an MSNBC or Rush Limbaugh report, that has one side of a very complex situation.

By the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved.
Robert Wilson
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Other high ranking personnel in this time period heard about these same allegations and had no idea where or how or whether to report them.

To infer knowledge to Briles and Ian based on another incident and then further use that as the basis upon which to fire them and allege they shielded people from rape allegations is pretty darn thin.

This is why, if Briles was fired for other reasons (i.e. "too many bond hombres"), then let's just be honest about it. Inferring that it was rape shielding unnecessarily ratchets up the rhetoric and consequences for everyone.
Sip 'em Beers
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As I see it, the problem, besides sucking it up against Liberty, is that we still have virtually no idea *** went down concerning Briles. There is good evidence for both the narrative that Art was the scapegoat and that the BOR had to leave us all in the dark in order to protect the University (NCAA, Dept of Ed, etc.). In either case, the situation has been terribly mishandled and now, in absence of definitive proof, supporters of both narratives see any difficulty as proof of the malice or incompetence on the other side. It also doesn't help that our football team sucks again. Thanks BOR!
Keyser Soze
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Robert Wilson said:

Other high ranking personnel in this time period heard about these same allegations and had no idea where or how or whether to report them.

To infer knowledge to Briles and Ian based on another incident and then further use that as the basis upon which to fire them and allege they shielded people from rape allegations is pretty darn thin.

This is why, if Briles was fired for other reasons (i.e. "too many bond hombres"), then let's just be honest about it. Inferring that it was rape shielding unnecessarily ratchets up the rhetoric and consequences for everyone.
They have said it was not one thing. Rather it was a pattern of not reporting. There is no smoking gun that if we can just prove that didn't happen the whole thing should be tossed.


At the end of a section on non sexual assault problems they wrote in Shillinglaw

"At some point, Pepper Hamilton stopped collecting such examples, which were not directly within the scope of its engagement*. There could be dozens more, but Pepper Hamilton believed it had compiled enough to support a conclusion that those in charge of the football program, including Shillinglaw, improperly covered up disciplinary problems other than sexual assault."


*sexual assault was the engagement


Oldbear83
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Keyser Soze said:

Keyser Soze said:

Oldbear83 said:

The problem with the findings of fact is that they present allegations, but no facts. Calling something 'fact' does not make it so. And PH has a track record of selling assumptions as established.

No one - anywhere - has provided decisive support for the allegations.

Only someone who has emotionally decided to assign guilt can conclude the charges stick.



It is very much a fact that there were allegations.

So many people here miss the true issue of all this. It is the deliberate and willful failure to respond to allegations. They kept allegations from reaching Judicial Affairs and or Title IX who were the ones to handle such issues. Decisive support of allegations does not matter a lick - only the existence of them matters and that is not in question.

Briles failures exist regardless of finding the whole truth behind each and every allegation.




OldBear83 - this issue may just be too complex for you - reread above, slowly this time
No facts, only allegations.

Still the salient point.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Robert Wilson
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There is also no smoking gun establishing the propriety of their actions, and it was just one more tactical and PR mistake to hold this one out as the bell cow.
Malbec
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Keyser Soze said:



...This is a key paragraph from Shillinglaw:

"Pepper Hamilton concluded that a number of factors had contributed to the code of silence within football. Those factors included the absence of a full-time Title IX Coordinator prior to November 2014, unclear reporting procedures, and inadequate Title IX training for Athletics Department personnel. However, Pepper Hamilton also concluded that Coach Briles and McCaw knew that Judicial Affairs had jurisdiction for investigating sexual assaults. Indeed, on April 23, 2013 the very same day Coach Briles learned about the student-athlete's account of being gang raped he was forwarded a letter stating that Judicial Affairs had investigated and cleared another one of his players of sexual assault allegations."








This very paragraph that you cite as "key" to the issue, is in and of itself, exculpatory in nature. It takes the one incident that you and others like to use over and over again as "preuve extraordinaire," and provides 4 factors for Briles' failure to report, 3 of which are mitigating and exculpatory in nature, and 1 that is assumptory and negated by the other 3 factors.

It says quite plainly that there is:
1. No Title IX Coordinator,
2. Unclear reporting procedures, and
3. Inadequate training.

Then it tells you that despite these three things, Briles should have reported the incident to Judicial Affairs, since he knew they were responsible for handling sexual assault cases. The only problem with that is that common sense would indicate that the person who received the complaint first-hand would be responsible for filing the report with JA, not someone who received it as effective hearsay. Now, Title IX may require that he report it anyway, but if he wasn't trained to report a second-hand complaint, how in the world should he be expected to do so, when the person that heard the story first-hand is an employee of the institution as well?

Finally, it was PH that labeled the incident as a "sexual assault," which the BOR then turned into a "gang rape." It was not reported as such by the volleyball player (you can't even call her a "complainant" since she was not complaining about anything...not to the university, not to the police, not really even to her coach). She simply was providing her coach with a reason for her impending transfer. Further, any report would at that point have been moot for several reasons:

1, The time period for investigating the incident had long passed,
2. The player had already withdrawn from school and was leaving the very next day, and
3. The players involved had already left the university, with the exception of one, who was already suspended and whose withdrawal from the university was imminent.

So you are basing Briles' guilt (and that of Barnes, McCaw and Hill) on the failure to properly report a complaint, which was not actually a complaint, that was beyond the investigation limitation, for a student who had already withdrawn from school, against other students who were effectively no longer students, by employees who were admittedly untrained in proper reporting protocol and Title IX guidance? Further, the only person who has been sworn to the oath, Barnes, stated that he talked to Judicial Affairs (not that he made a formal report) for advice and was told that unless his player wanted to participate in the process, there was nothing that could be done (a failure on the part of Judicial Affairs).

Can you not see the folly of this line of reasoning? If you want to say that Briles and his staff were derelict in their adherence to a proper structure of discipline under a code of conduct consistent with the university's overall mission, you likely have a valid point. But, at any time during the staff's tenure, did the university do anything to suggest that the football program was outside that mission? Did they ever establish any policy to promote adherence? It would seem from the evidence, that to the contrary, the administration and governors provided a tacit sanctioning of the program's methods, both through its own complicity and its failure to act.
D. C. Bear
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Keyser Soze said:

Robert Wilson said:

Other high ranking personnel in this time period heard about these same allegations and had no idea where or how or whether to report them.

To infer knowledge to Briles and Ian based on another incident and then further use that as the basis upon which to fire them and allege they shielded people from rape allegations is pretty darn thin.

This is why, if Briles was fired for other reasons (i.e. "too many bond hombres"), then let's just be honest about it. Inferring that it was rape shielding unnecessarily ratchets up the rhetoric and consequences for everyone.
They have said it was not one thing. Rather it was a pattern of not reporting. There is no smoking gun that if we can just prove that didn't happen the whole thing should be tossed.


At the end of a section on non sexual assault problems they wrote in Shillinglaw

"At some point, Pepper Hamilton stopped collecting such examples, which were not directly within the scope of its engagement*. There could be dozens more, but Pepper Hamilton believed it had compiled enough to support a conclusion that those in charge of the football program, including Shillinglaw, improperly covered up disciplinary problems other than sexual assault."


*sexual assault was the engagement





And yet Baylor allowed and later even promoted a narrative that said "Briles covered up rape," even though there wasn't much in the way of supporting that conclusion (as evidenced by Baylor writing a letter basically saying there wasn't any evidence that Briles covered up rape).

They could have said the following:
"Our examination of how we responded to sexual assault did not find any evidence that Briles (fill in contents of letter here), but we did find a variety of other disciplinary issues (throw in some details here) that have led us to the conclusion that Coach Briles continuning as head coach is not in the best interests of Baylor or its student athletes. For this reason, we are exercising our right to buy out the remainder of Coach Briles contract in accordance with the terms of that contract."
Chanceux
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D. C. Bear said:

Keyser Soze said:

Robert Wilson said:

Other high ranking personnel in this time period heard about these same allegations and had no idea where or how or whether to report them.

To infer knowledge to Briles and Ian based on another incident and then further use that as the basis upon which to fire them and allege they shielded people from rape allegations is pretty darn thin.

This is why, if Briles was fired for other reasons (i.e. "too many bond hombres"), then let's just be honest about it. Inferring that it was rape shielding unnecessarily ratchets up the rhetoric and consequences for everyone.
They have said it was not one thing. Rather it was a pattern of not reporting. There is no smoking gun that if we can just prove that didn't happen the whole thing should be tossed.


At the end of a section on non sexual assault problems they wrote in Shillinglaw

"At some point, Pepper Hamilton stopped collecting such examples, which were not directly within the scope of its engagement*. There could be dozens more, but Pepper Hamilton believed it had compiled enough to support a conclusion that those in charge of the football program, including Shillinglaw, improperly covered up disciplinary problems other than sexual assault."


*sexual assault was the engagement





And yet Baylor allowed and later even promoted a narrative that said "Briles covered up rape," even though there wasn't much in the way of supporting that conclusion (as evidenced by Baylor writing a letter basically saying there wasn't any evidence that Briles covered up rape).

They could have said the following:
"Our examination of how we responded to sexual assault did not find any evidence that Briles (fill in contents of letter here), but we did find a variety of other disciplinary issues (throw in some details here) that have led us to the conclusion that Coach Briles continuning as head coach is not in the best interests of Baylor or its student athletes. For this reason, we are exercising our right to buy out the remainder of Coach Briles contract in accordance with the terms of that contract."
I reckon its a head scratcher tryin to understand how things aint change after 2012. Wasn't like ol Elliot's arrest, trial and sentence was for inquiring minds only. Shoooot that was out there for every dadgum set of eyes to see. Should have roused some of them boys up there in the fancy suites to ask some questions and make some dadgummed changes. Right there was a chance to put some fire under Art the Genius's caboose. Ain't happen. If it did we sure were none the wiser. Coulda, shoulda and woulda been a game changer.

Makes a feller think.
Robert Wilson
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Two great posts above this one.

If we instead fired Briles for this larger issue of internal discipline, then (i) we made a massive mistake repeatedly trotting out the vball player allegations and insinuations of rape cover up (this damaged not only Briles, but also the university as a whole and everyone in between); (ii) BOR/admin made massive mistakes in never previously addressing this issue; and (iii) given the absence of any prior discipline on this matter, this would have been a great instance to exercise some internal discipline and re-education, then keep your mouth shut, circle the wagons, and hire defense counsel.

Instead, we just attacked ourselves and bled out in public.
Keyser Soze
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Malbec said:

Keyser Soze said:



...This is a key paragraph from Shillinglaw:

"Pepper Hamilton concluded that a number of factors had contributed to the code of silence within football. Those factors included the absence of a full-time Title IX Coordinator prior to November 2014, unclear reporting procedures, and inadequate Title IX training for Athletics Department personnel. However, Pepper Hamilton also concluded that Coach Briles and McCaw knew that Judicial Affairs had jurisdiction for investigating sexual assaults. Indeed, on April 23, 2013 the very same day Coach Briles learned about the student-athlete's account of being gang raped he was forwarded a letter stating that Judicial Affairs had investigated and cleared another one of his players of sexual assault allegations."








This very paragraph that you cite as "key" to the issue, is in and of itself, exculpatory in nature. It takes the one incident that you and others like to use over and over again as "preuve extraordinaire," and provides 4 factors for Briles' failure to report, 3 of which are mitigating and exculpatory in nature, and 1 that is assumptory and negated by the other 3 factors.

It says quite plainly that there is:
1. No Title IX Coordinator,
2. Unclear reporting procedures, and
3. Inadequate training.

Then it tells you that despite these three things, Briles should have reported the incident to Judicial Affairs, since he knew they were responsible for handling sexual assault cases. The only problem with that is that common sense would indicate that the person who received the complaint first-hand would be responsible for filing the report with JA, not someone who received it as effective hearsay. Now, Title IX may require that he report it anyway, but if he wasn't trained to report a second-hand complaint, how in the world should he be expected to do so, when the person that heard the story first-hand is an employee of the institution as well?

Finally, it was PH that labeled the incident as a "sexual assault," which the BOR then turned into a "gang rape." It was not reported as such by the volleyball player (you can't even call her a "complainant" since she was not complaining about anything...not to the university, not to the police, not really even to her coach). She simply was providing her coach with a reason for her impending transfer. Further, any report would at that point have been moot for several reasons:

1, The time period for investigating the incident had long passed,
2. The player had already withdrawn from school and was leaving the very next day, and
3. The players involved had already left the university, with the exception of one, who was already suspended and whose withdrawal from the university was imminent.

So you are basing Briles' guilt (and that of Barnes, McCaw and Hill) on the failure to properly report a complaint, which was not actually a complaint, that was beyond the investigation limitation, for a student who had already withdrawn from school, against other students who were effectively no longer students, by employees who were admittedly untrained in proper reporting protocol and Title IX guidance? Further, the only person who has been sworn to the oath, Barnes, stated that he talked to Judicial Affairs (not that he made a formal report) for advice and was told that unless his player wanted to participate in the process, there was nothing that could be done (a failure on the part of Judicial Affairs).

Can you not see the folly of this line of reasoning? If you want to say that Briles and his staff were derelict in their adherence to a proper structure of discipline under a code of conduct consistent with the university's overall mission, you likely have a valid point. But, at any time during the staff's tenure, did the university do anything to suggest that the football program was outside that mission? Did they ever establish any policy to promote adherence? It would seem from the evidence, that to the contrary, the administration and governors provided a tacit sanctioning of the program's methods, both through its own complicity and its failure to act.


That is factually incorrect. Barnes talked to McCaw not Judicial Affairs.

From Shillinglaw:

"The victim's coach went back to McCaw, who incorrectly told the coach it was up to the victim to take action. McCaw told the coach that if the student did not press charges there was nothing else they could do. McCaw suggested that the coach also could have the student-athlete call the Baylor General Counsel's office and McCaw had his assistant provide the phone number. When the coach relayed the number to the student-athlete and her mother, they declined to make the call. "

This is on Baylor.edu

  • In a voluntary statement on June 2, 2016 and a sworn affidavit on June 24, 2016, the victim's head coach again detailed his actions after learning of the gang rape allegation. His account was consistent with the account he provided to Baylor in the spring of 2016. In neither of the statements, nor in his interview, did the head coach state that he reported the alleged assault to Judicial Affairs. To the contrary, he expressed his great disappointment and frustration that he could not do more to help the student-athlete despite bringing the report to the attention of his sports administrator, the head football coach, and the Athletic Director.












ArlingtonFarm Fingercuffs
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2014 would have been a fantastic time for someone with balls to have forced Briles & staff to undergo mandatory Title IX training.
Chanceux
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Internet tough guy said:

2014 would have been a fantastic time for someone with balls to have forced Briles & staff to undergo mandatory Title IX training.
2012 woulda been a great time for anybody in charge to tell everybody in the athletic department and the dadgum athletes that the Elliot stuff aint gonna happen again. The day that boy got arrested woulda been perfecto.
D. C. Bear
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Keyser Soze said:

Malbec said:

Keyser Soze said:



...This is a key paragraph from Shillinglaw:

"Pepper Hamilton concluded that a number of factors had contributed to the code of silence within football. Those factors included the absence of a full-time Title IX Coordinator prior to November 2014, unclear reporting procedures, and inadequate Title IX training for Athletics Department personnel. However, Pepper Hamilton also concluded that Coach Briles and McCaw knew that Judicial Affairs had jurisdiction for investigating sexual assaults. Indeed, on April 23, 2013 the very same day Coach Briles learned about the student-athlete's account of being gang raped he was forwarded a letter stating that Judicial Affairs had investigated and cleared another one of his players of sexual assault allegations."








This very paragraph that you cite as "key" to the issue, is in and of itself, exculpatory in nature. It takes the one incident that you and others like to use over and over again as "preuve extraordinaire," and provides 4 factors for Briles' failure to report, 3 of which are mitigating and exculpatory in nature, and 1 that is assumptory and negated by the other 3 factors.

It says quite plainly that there is:
1. No Title IX Coordinator,
2. Unclear reporting procedures, and
3. Inadequate training.

Then it tells you that despite these three things, Briles should have reported the incident to Judicial Affairs, since he knew they were responsible for handling sexual assault cases. The only problem with that is that common sense would indicate that the person who received the complaint first-hand would be responsible for filing the report with JA, not someone who received it as effective hearsay. Now, Title IX may require that he report it anyway, but if he wasn't trained to report a second-hand complaint, how in the world should he be expected to do so, when the person that heard the story first-hand is an employee of the institution as well?

Finally, it was PH that labeled the incident as a "sexual assault," which the BOR then turned into a "gang rape." It was not reported as such by the volleyball player (you can't even call her a "complainant" since she was not complaining about anything...not to the university, not to the police, not really even to her coach). She simply was providing her coach with a reason for her impending transfer. Further, any report would at that point have been moot for several reasons:

1, The time period for investigating the incident had long passed,
2. The player had already withdrawn from school and was leaving the very next day, and
3. The players involved had already left the university, with the exception of one, who was already suspended and whose withdrawal from the university was imminent.

So you are basing Briles' guilt (and that of Barnes, McCaw and Hill) on the failure to properly report a complaint, which was not actually a complaint, that was beyond the investigation limitation, for a student who had already withdrawn from school, against other students who were effectively no longer students, by employees who were admittedly untrained in proper reporting protocol and Title IX guidance? Further, the only person who has been sworn to the oath, Barnes, stated that he talked to Judicial Affairs (not that he made a formal report) for advice and was told that unless his player wanted to participate in the process, there was nothing that could be done (a failure on the part of Judicial Affairs).

Can you not see the folly of this line of reasoning? If you want to say that Briles and his staff were derelict in their adherence to a proper structure of discipline under a code of conduct consistent with the university's overall mission, you likely have a valid point. But, at any time during the staff's tenure, did the university do anything to suggest that the football program was outside that mission? Did they ever establish any policy to promote adherence? It would seem from the evidence, that to the contrary, the administration and governors provided a tacit sanctioning of the program's methods, both through its own complicity and its failure to act.


That is factually incorrect. Barnes talked to McCaw not Judicial Affairs.

From Shillinglaw:

"The victim's coach went back to McCaw, who incorrectly told the coach it was up to the victim to take action. McCaw told the coach that if the student did not press charges there was nothing else they could do. McCaw suggested that the coach also could have the student-athlete call the Baylor General Counsel's office and McCaw had his assistant provide the phone number. When the coach relayed the number to the student-athlete and her mother, they declined to make the call. "

This is on Baylor.edu

  • In a voluntary statement on June 2, 2016 and a sworn affidavit on June 24, 2016, the victim's head coach again detailed his actions after learning of the gang rape allegation. His account was consistent with the account he provided to Baylor in the spring of 2016. In neither of the statements, nor in his interview, did the head coach state that he reported the alleged assault to Judicial Affairs. To the contrary, he expressed his great disappointment and frustration that he could not do more to help the student-athlete despite bringing the report to the attention of his sports administrator, the head football coach, and the Athletic Director.















It is not clear that the post you say is factually incorrect is factually incorrect.
Oldbear83
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D. C. Bear said:
















It is not clear that the post you say is factually incorrect is factually incorrect.
It is, however, clear that the claims made against Briles remain unsubstantiated.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Malbec
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Keyser Soze said:





That is factually incorrect. Barnes talked to McCaw not Judicial Affairs.

From Shillinglaw:

"The victim's coach went back to McCaw, who incorrectly told the coach it was up to the victim to take action. McCaw told the coach that if the student did not press charges there was nothing else they could do. McCaw suggested that the coach also could have the student-athlete call the Baylor General Counsel's office and McCaw had his assistant provide the phone number. When the coach relayed the number to the student-athlete and her mother, they declined to make the call. "

This is on Baylor.edu

  • In a voluntary statement on June 2, 2016 and a sworn affidavit on June 24, 2016, the victim's head coach again detailed his actions after learning of the gang rape allegation. His account was consistent with the account he provided to Baylor in the spring of 2016. In neither of the statements, nor in his interview, did the head coach state that he reported the alleged assault to Judicial Affairs. To the contrary, he expressed his great disappointment and frustration that he could not do more to help the student-athlete despite bringing the report to the attention of his sports administrator, the head football coach, and the Athletic Director.













No my friend, you are wrong. What Baylor says is that Barnes did not make a "report" to JA. He has said repeatedly that he made a call to JA to ask for advice about reporting and that he was given incorrect protocol. Even had he been given the correct protocol according to the OCR guidance (which Baylor did not have implemented at the time), any action would have been ineffective for all of the reasons outlined.

We have vilified people for doing exactly what the "victim" and her parent wished. Now, you can argue that Title IX doesn't give us that luxury. But in the absence of competent Title IX training, and if the purpose of the OCR guidance is to provide the complainant with a level of support that she desires; then should we be ruining people's lives for giving her that support, when the support that she desires is to not participate in either the Title IX or legal processes, but rather to go on with her life and play volleyball under scholarship at another institution?
D. C. Bear
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Malbec said:

Keyser Soze said:





That is factually incorrect. Barnes talked to McCaw not Judicial Affairs.

From Shillinglaw:

"The victim's coach went back to McCaw, who incorrectly told the coach it was up to the victim to take action. McCaw told the coach that if the student did not press charges there was nothing else they could do. McCaw suggested that the coach also could have the student-athlete call the Baylor General Counsel's office and McCaw had his assistant provide the phone number. When the coach relayed the number to the student-athlete and her mother, they declined to make the call. "

This is on Baylor.edu

  • In a voluntary statement on June 2, 2016 and a sworn affidavit on June 24, 2016, the victim's head coach again detailed his actions after learning of the gang rape allegation. His account was consistent with the account he provided to Baylor in the spring of 2016. In neither of the statements, nor in his interview, did the head coach state that he reported the alleged assault to Judicial Affairs. To the contrary, he expressed his great disappointment and frustration that he could not do more to help the student-athlete despite bringing the report to the attention of his sports administrator, the head football coach, and the Athletic Director.













No my friend, you are wrong. What Baylor says is that Barnes did not make a "report" to JA. He has said repeatedly that he made a call to JA to ask for advice about reporting and that he was given incorrect protocol. Even had he been given the correct protocol according to the OCR guidance (which Baylor did not have implemented at the time), any action would have been ineffective for all of the reasons outlined.

We have vilified people for doing exactly what the "victim" and her parent wished. Now, you can argue that Title IX doesn't give us that luxury. But in the absence of competent Title IX training, and if the purpose of the OCR guidance is to provide the complainant with a level of support that she desires; then should we be ruining people's lives for giving her that support, when the support that she desires is to not participate in either the Title IX or legal processes, but rather to go on with her life and play volleyball under scholarship at another institution?
Has he said that? I don't recall an on-the-record source for that information.
BearInBigD
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D. C. Bear said:


It is not clear that the post you say is factually incorrect is factually incorrect.


Keyser accepts both the PH FOF (which were conclusions, not facts) as indisputable fact (it isn't) and uses allegations in the pleadings of the Shillinglaw lawsuit to support his "facts". Any other lawsuit pleadings in favor of any non-BOR related party he conveniently ignores.

As a result, he has no position except to blindly repeat his BOR-supporting narrative.

He is essentially a less-acerbic, less-mentally ill Milli.
Malbec
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D. C. Bear said:



Has he said that? I don't recall an on-the-record source for that information.
Yes, if the Shillinglaw pleading was equilateral, it would have been inserted right before the words:

"The victim's coach [then] went back to McCaw..."
quash
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BearInBigD said:

D. C. Bear said:


It is not clear that the post you say is factually incorrect is factually incorrect.


Keyser accepts both the PH FOF (which were conclusions, not facts) as indisputable fact (it isn't) and uses allegations in the pleadings of the Shillinglaw lawsuit to support his "facts". Any other lawsuit pleadings in favor of any non-BOR related party he conveniently ignores.

As a result, he has no position except to blindly repeat his BOR-supporting narrative.

He is essentially a less-acerbic, less-mentally ill Milli.

He has never called them indisputable. He has carefully used tbe term "allegations". He has not blindly supported the BoR.

He has provided a thoughtful, nuanced counter argument that some people disagree with.
Keyser Soze
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D. C. Bear said:

Malbec said:

Keyser Soze said:





That is factually incorrect. Barnes talked to McCaw not Judicial Affairs.

From Shillinglaw:

"The victim's coach went back to McCaw, who incorrectly told the coach it was up to the victim to take action. McCaw told the coach that if the student did not press charges there was nothing else they could do. McCaw suggested that the coach also could have the student-athlete call the Baylor General Counsel's office and McCaw had his assistant provide the phone number. When the coach relayed the number to the student-athlete and her mother, they declined to make the call. "

This is on Baylor.edu

  • In a voluntary statement on June 2, 2016 and a sworn affidavit on June 24, 2016, the victim's head coach again detailed his actions after learning of the gang rape allegation. His account was consistent with the account he provided to Baylor in the spring of 2016. In neither of the statements, nor in his interview, did the head coach state that he reported the alleged assault to Judicial Affairs. To the contrary, he expressed his great disappointment and frustration that he could not do more to help the student-athlete despite bringing the report to the attention of his sports administrator, the head football coach, and the Athletic Director.













No my friend, you are wrong. What Baylor says is that Barnes did not make a "report" to JA. He has said repeatedly that he made a call to JA to ask for advice about reporting and that he was given incorrect protocol. Even had he been given the correct protocol according to the OCR guidance (which Baylor did not have implemented at the time), any action would have been ineffective for all of the reasons outlined.

We have vilified people for doing exactly what the "victim" and her parent wished. Now, you can argue that Title IX doesn't give us that luxury. But in the absence of competent Title IX training, and if the purpose of the OCR guidance is to provide the complainant with a level of support that she desires; then should we be ruining people's lives for giving her that support, when the support that she desires is to not participate in either the Title IX or legal processes, but rather to go on with her life and play volleyball under scholarship at another institution?
Has he said that? I don't recall an on-the-record source for that information.


"Pepper Hamilton found no evidence that anyone, including Coach Briles, notified Judicial Affairs, BUPD, or anyone else outside of Athletics of the allegation. If someone had called or visited Judicial Affairs it would be reflected in its records because Judicial Affairs logs each call and visit. It also sends out internal email notifications about any alleged Title IX or Honor Code violation. Recent follow-up inquiries found no records showing that anyone McCaw, Coach Briles, the other coach, or any other member of the Athletics Department reported the 2013 allegation to Judicial Affairs, "





Malbec
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Keyser Soze said:

D. C. Bear said:



Has he said that? I don't recall an on-the-record source for that information.


"Pepper Hamilton found no evidence that anyone, including Coach Briles, notified Judicial Affairs, BUPD, or anyone else outside of Athletics of the allegation. If someone had called or visited Judicial Affairs it would be reflected in its records because Judicial Affairs logs each call and visit. It also sends out internal email notifications about any alleged Title IX or Honor Code violation. Recent follow-up inquiries found no records showing that anyone McCaw, Coach Briles, the other coach, or any other member of the Athletics Department reported the 2013 allegation to Judicial Affairs, "





See, that statement shows you that Barnes had maintained that he called someone in JA. There would be no need to make a statement of refutation otherwise.

I think it more than likely that JA logs calls that go through its main number, and not through every direct extension. Or that calls are logged if they involve anything of a JA business nature. I doubt personal or informal calls are logged, especially considering Ramsower's penchant for not having anything writing. What's really telling here is that they are trying to prove that Barnes didn't call JA by using JA's call logs instead of records from Barnes' phone, exactly opposite from the microscopic examination of Briles' phone.

But all of that supposition is still irrelevant. The girl didn't want to report, so they didn't. If they had done so against her wishes in accordance with the non-implemented OCR guidance, her case was unsustainable for the reasons already covered.
Robert Wilson
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Keyser Soze said:



"Pepper Hamilton found no evidence that anyone, including Coach Briles, notified Judicial Affairs, BUPD, or anyone else outside of Athletics of the allegation. If someone had called or visited Judicial Affairs it would be reflected in its records because Judicial Affairs logs each call and visit. It also sends out internal email notifications about any alleged Title IX or Honor Code violation. Recent follow-up inquiries found no records showing that anyone McCaw, Coach Briles, the other coach, or any other member of the Athletics Department reported the 2013 allegation to Judicial Affairs, "
So we believe JA's call records over Barnes's own statement, because we believe JA call records to be less fallible? That's suspect, to start.

And, in any event, that questionable premise is pointless when evaluating the reasonableness of the behavior of someone who talked to Barnes. They'd be going on what he said, not on a JA call record they never saw (which could easily be wrong).

And then, the import of any of this assumes sufficient training to know where to go.

And then, it assumes you would follow that training even if the event was old, off campus, numerous prior persons with knowledge (ostensibly with their own reporting requirements), alleged assailants gone, and victim wanting you to do nothing.

This is way out on a limb with questionable support and reasoning, and it has been by far the most trumpeted event.

When you then consider the actions it supposedly supports, and the negative PR it engendered (by us, against us, no less), the mind reels.
57Bear
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Keyser Soze said:

D. C. Bear said:















Has he said that? I don't recall an on-the-record source for that information.


"... If someone had called or visited Judicial Affairs it would be reflected in its records because Judicial Affairs logs each call and visit. It also sends out internal email notifications about any alleged Title IX or Honor Code violation. .., "






As I recall, the Baylor Police records were void of some information as well.

KWTX has learned the volleyball coach, Jim Barnes, who's no longer at Baylor, maintains he did call Judicial Affairs after he was made aware of the incident, and in a sworn statement obtained by KWTX, Barnes says thought Briles "handled the matter honorably and with the serious attention it deserved." http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/In-1-page-letter-Briles-denies-cover-up-calls-for-more-transparency-415231143.html
Bearwitness8223
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Keyser Soze said:

D. C. Bear said:

Malbec said:

Keyser Soze said:





That is factually incorrect. Barnes talked to McCaw not Judicial Affairs.

From Shillinglaw:

"The victim's coach went back to McCaw, who incorrectly told the coach it was up to the victim to take action. McCaw told the coach that if the student did not press charges there was nothing else they could do. McCaw suggested that the coach also could have the student-athlete call the Baylor General Counsel's office and McCaw had his assistant provide the phone number. When the coach relayed the number to the student-athlete and her mother, they declined to make the call. "

This is on Baylor.edu

  • In a voluntary statement on June 2, 2016 and a sworn affidavit on June 24, 2016, the victim's head coach again detailed his actions after learning of the gang rape allegation. His account was consistent with the account he provided to Baylor in the spring of 2016. In neither of the statements, nor in his interview, did the head coach state that he reported the alleged assault to Judicial Affairs. To the contrary, he expressed his great disappointment and frustration that he could not do more to help the student-athlete despite bringing the report to the attention of his sports administrator, the head football coach, and the Athletic Director.













No my friend, you are wrong. What Baylor says is that Barnes did not make a "report" to JA. He has said repeatedly that he made a call to JA to ask for advice about reporting and that he was given incorrect protocol. Even had he been given the correct protocol according to the OCR guidance (which Baylor did not have implemented at the time), any action would have been ineffective for all of the reasons outlined.

We have vilified people for doing exactly what the "victim" and her parent wished. Now, you can argue that Title IX doesn't give us that luxury. But in the absence of competent Title IX training, and if the purpose of the OCR guidance is to provide the complainant with a level of support that she desires; then should we be ruining people's lives for giving her that support, when the support that she desires is to not participate in either the Title IX or legal processes, but rather to go on with her life and play volleyball under scholarship at another institution?
Has he said that? I don't recall an on-the-record source for that information.


"Pepper Hamilton found no evidence that anyone, including Coach Briles, notified Judicial Affairs, BUPD, or anyone else outside of Athletics of the allegation. If someone had called or visited Judicial Affairs it would be reflected in its records because Judicial Affairs logs each call and visit. It also sends out internal email notifications about any alleged Title IX or Honor Code violation. Recent follow-up inquiries found no records showing that anyone McCaw, Coach Briles, the other coach, or any other member of the Athletics Department reported the 2013 allegation to Judicial Affairs, "







The allegation that the girl apparently didn't want reported?? When briles found out only one player was on the team still and he was suspended. Was briles supposed to disregard the girls request and report it against her and her parents consent? You're reaching KS it's quite sad honestly
Keyser Soze
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Robert Wilson said:

Keyser Soze said:



"Pepper Hamilton found no evidence that anyone, including Coach Briles, notified Judicial Affairs, BUPD, or anyone else outside of Athletics of the allegation. If someone had called or visited Judicial Affairs it would be reflected in its records because Judicial Affairs logs each call and visit. It also sends out internal email notifications about any alleged Title IX or Honor Code violation. Recent follow-up inquiries found no records showing that anyone McCaw, Coach Briles, the other coach, or any other member of the Athletics Department reported the 2013 allegation to Judicial Affairs, "
So we believe JA's call records over Barnes's own statement, because we believe JA call records to be less fallible? That's suspect, to start.

And, in any event, that questionable premise is pointless when evaluating the reasonableness of the behavior of someone who talked to Barnes. They'd be going on what he said, not on a JA call record they never saw (which could easily be wrong).

And then, the import of any of this assumes sufficient training to know where to go.

And then, it assumes you would follow that training even if the event was old, off campus, numerous prior persons with knowledge (ostensibly with their own reporting requirements), alleged assailants gone, and victim wanting you to do nothing.

This is way out on a limb with questionable support and reasoning, and it has been by far the most trumpeted event.

When you then consider the actions it supposedly supports, and the negative PR it engendered (by us, against us, no less), the mind reels.
I have seen no record of Barns ever saying that. The only place I have seen that reported is on Baylorfans and twitter. I believe this to be nothing but incorrect rumors.
Robert Wilson
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quash said:

BearInBigD said:

D. C. Bear said:


It is not clear that the post you say is factually incorrect is factually incorrect.


Keyser accepts both the PH FOF (which were conclusions, not facts) as indisputable fact (it isn't) and uses allegations in the pleadings of the Shillinglaw lawsuit to support his "facts". Any other lawsuit pleadings in favor of any non-BOR related party he conveniently ignores.

As a result, he has no position except to blindly repeat his BOR-supporting narrative.

He is essentially a less-acerbic, less-mentally ill Milli.

He has never called them indisputable. He has carefully used tbe term "allegations". He has not blindly supported the BoR.

He has provided a thoughtful, nuanced counter argument that some people disagree with.
While I have spent a lot of time disagreeing with Keyser, I appreciate the manner in which he goes about it, even when he's on a thread with numerous people disagreeing with him. He's been professional, and his tone rarely slips even when he is baited (his record being better than mine in that regard).

I am puzzled at his tenacity to repeat this same position this long/often, and it makes me wonder who he is, but that's not particularly relevant.
D. C. Bear
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Keyser Soze said:

D. C. Bear said:

Malbec said:

Keyser Soze said:





That is factually incorrect. Barnes talked to McCaw not Judicial Affairs.

From Shillinglaw:

"The victim's coach went back to McCaw, who incorrectly told the coach it was up to the victim to take action. McCaw told the coach that if the student did not press charges there was nothing else they could do. McCaw suggested that the coach also could have the student-athlete call the Baylor General Counsel's office and McCaw had his assistant provide the phone number. When the coach relayed the number to the student-athlete and her mother, they declined to make the call. "

This is on Baylor.edu

  • In a voluntary statement on June 2, 2016 and a sworn affidavit on June 24, 2016, the victim's head coach again detailed his actions after learning of the gang rape allegation. His account was consistent with the account he provided to Baylor in the spring of 2016. In neither of the statements, nor in his interview, did the head coach state that he reported the alleged assault to Judicial Affairs. To the contrary, he expressed his great disappointment and frustration that he could not do more to help the student-athlete despite bringing the report to the attention of his sports administrator, the head football coach, and the Athletic Director.













No my friend, you are wrong. What Baylor says is that Barnes did not make a "report" to JA. He has said repeatedly that he made a call to JA to ask for advice about reporting and that he was given incorrect protocol. Even had he been given the correct protocol according to the OCR guidance (which Baylor did not have implemented at the time), any action would have been ineffective for all of the reasons outlined.

We have vilified people for doing exactly what the "victim" and her parent wished. Now, you can argue that Title IX doesn't give us that luxury. But in the absence of competent Title IX training, and if the purpose of the OCR guidance is to provide the complainant with a level of support that she desires; then should we be ruining people's lives for giving her that support, when the support that she desires is to not participate in either the Title IX or legal processes, but rather to go on with her life and play volleyball under scholarship at another institution?
Has he said that? I don't recall an on-the-record source for that information.


"Pepper Hamilton found no evidence that anyone, including Coach Briles, notified Judicial Affairs, BUPD, or anyone else outside of Athletics of the allegation. If someone had called or visited Judicial Affairs it would be reflected in its records because Judicial Affairs logs each call and visit. It also sends out internal email notifications about any alleged Title IX or Honor Code violation. Recent follow-up inquiries found no records showing that anyone McCaw, Coach Briles, the other coach, or any other member of the Athletics Department reported the 2013 allegation to Judicial Affairs, "






That bolded part above, "it would be reflected in its records because Judicial Affairs logs each call and visit" is an assumption not in evidence. We don't know that they did, in fact, log every call, we know we've been told they are supposed to log each call, that we should assume that they logged each call and that it would have been reflected in their records.
Robert Wilson
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Keyser Soze said:

Robert Wilson said:

Keyser Soze said:



"Pepper Hamilton found no evidence that anyone, including Coach Briles, notified Judicial Affairs, BUPD, or anyone else outside of Athletics of the allegation. If someone had called or visited Judicial Affairs it would be reflected in its records because Judicial Affairs logs each call and visit. It also sends out internal email notifications about any alleged Title IX or Honor Code violation. Recent follow-up inquiries found no records showing that anyone McCaw, Coach Briles, the other coach, or any other member of the Athletics Department reported the 2013 allegation to Judicial Affairs, "
So we believe JA's call records over Barnes's own statement, because we believe JA call records to be less fallible? That's suspect, to start.

And, in any event, that questionable premise is pointless when evaluating the reasonableness of the behavior of someone who talked to Barnes. They'd be going on what he said, not on a JA call record they never saw (which could easily be wrong).

And then, the import of any of this assumes sufficient training to know where to go.

And then, it assumes you would follow that training even if the event was old, off campus, numerous prior persons with knowledge (ostensibly with their own reporting requirements), alleged assailants gone, and victim wanting you to do nothing.

This is way out on a limb with questionable support and reasoning, and it has been by far the most trumpeted event.

When you then consider the actions it supposedly supports, and the negative PR it engendered (by us, against us, no less), the mind reels.
I have seen no record of Barns ever saying that. The only place I have seen that reported is on Baylorfans and twitter. I believe this to be nothing but incorrect rumors.
Even without that leg, the rest of the table stands.
57Bear
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Keyser Soze said:


I have seen no record of Barns ever saying that. The only place I have seen that reported is on Baylorfans and twitter. I believe this to be nothing but incorrect rumors.
KWTX has learned the volleyball coach, Jim Barnes, who's no longer at Baylor, maintains he did call Judicial Affairs after he was made aware of the incident, and in a sworn statement obtained by KWTX, Barnes says thought Briles "handled the matter honorably and with the serious attention it deserved." http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/In-1-page-letter-Briles-denies-cover-up-calls-for-more-transparency-415231143.html
[url=http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/In-1-page-letter-Briles-denies-cover-up-calls-for-more-transparency-415231143.html][/url]
Some believe KWTX, some believe Baylor.edu - Probably mutually exclusive sets!
Keyser Soze
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57Bear said:

Keyser Soze said:


I have seen no record of Barns ever saying that. The only place I have seen that reported is on Baylorfans and twitter. I believe this to be nothing but incorrect rumors.
KWTX has learned the volleyball coach, Jim Barnes, who's no longer at Baylor, maintains he did call Judicial Affairs after he was made aware of the incident, and in a sworn statement obtained by KWTX, Barnes says thought Briles "handled the matter honorably and with the serious attention it deserved." http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/In-1-page-letter-Briles-denies-cover-up-calls-for-more-transparency-415231143.html
[url=http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/In-1-page-letter-Briles-denies-cover-up-calls-for-more-transparency-415231143.html][/url]
Some believe KWTX, some believe Baylor.edu - Probably mutually exclusive sets!
Fair enough.

Thanks for posting.
LBKBEAR
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Maybe all of these non-football related lawsuits will show that our Judicial Affairs people were infallible in this time period. My guess would be that we probably didn't have a perfect JA department, given the number of lawsuits.
D. C. Bear
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57Bear said:

Keyser Soze said:


I have seen no record of Barns ever saying that. The only place I have seen that reported is on Baylorfans and twitter. I believe this to be nothing but incorrect rumors.
KWTX has learned the volleyball coach, Jim Barnes, who's no longer at Baylor, maintains he did call Judicial Affairs after he was made aware of the incident, and in a sworn statement obtained by KWTX, Barnes says thought Briles "handled the matter honorably and with the serious attention it deserved." http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/In-1-page-letter-Briles-denies-cover-up-calls-for-more-transparency-415231143.html
[url=http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/In-1-page-letter-Briles-denies-cover-up-calls-for-more-transparency-415231143.html][/url]
Some believe KWTX, some believe Baylor.edu - Probably mutually exclusive sets!


I'm not a fan of "has learned" because it hides the source of the information, and I don't trust journalists to be as through as they should be. Nevertheless, it makes for a more complex narrative.
BU84BEAR
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Since no one finds the support I give as irrefutable, let's analyze the xxxx out of this KWTX thing. Does the sworn affidavit say the coach called JA? It doesn't sound like it. The posted article certainly doesn't say that it does.

What motivation might a currently employed college coach have for claiming that he followed school procedure in reporting a gang rape, or at least attempted to do so? Might the press smear his name if he said, no, we just dropped it. It was a year later and only one football player was still around.?

I agree that it is possible that JA made mistakes in their logs, though that is entirely speculation, just as it is entirely speculation that Barnes could be motivated to make up the fact that he called JA.

Conclusion: nothing proven either way.
Robert Wilson
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BU84BEAR said:


Conclusion: nothing proven either way.
I concur.
 
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