Next year Rhule needs to win a lot or be fired after next season if he gets the season.. His own pollyannas have undercut the bare cupboard falsehood for next year by talking about how he will be loaded with talent next year and how there will be a drastic turnaround.

Robert Wilson said:

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One thing we have been told over and over again on this message board is that those of us who are pissed off and suspicious about whether this was handled well just care too much about football. Our priorities are out of whack. We do not care about victims of sexual assault. We are not an institution of football.

Ok. The message is clear. De-emphasize football. At a minimum, de-emphasize caring about whether we win. That reprioritization does not end at the institutional level. It inevitably flows down through the fan base. Part of the problem is that some of us have just been slow to take our cues.

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OR care about football, but care about winning with integrity over winning at all costs.

la1037 said:

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Great post Stranger. More or less what I've been saying since Briles was fired. I doubled down on that the day Rhule was announced.

It's Bad fit. Painfully obvious to anyone with an understanding of Texas Football. We trusted our future to Mack Roades. A man who doesn't have a degree from Baylor and who can walk away from Baylor with money and not a second thought.

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You just described Art Briles.

GruntTuff said:

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We can talk about plans after Tempe all night long, but we're missing the point Stranger makes. It's hard to wrap your arms around, it's painful, but it's true.

Stranger knows of what he speaks. The folks who control Baylor have never seen Baylor as a place where football mattered, only a place where football was a necessity if Baylor was to continue as something other than a bible college. Think Hardin Simmons.

I've been following Baylor football almost as long as my friend Stranger. For those of you who don't know this man, he's as loyal and dedicated a Baylor fan as is still walking planet earth. Since 1955, I might add.

He beat me by 11 years. My first game was Baylor vs Syracuse in 1966. You young folks, Google that one. I thought we'd never lose again. Stranger happened to have been sired by a man who followed the Bears. I was sired by a poor house painter who never knew his father, but raised his family the best he could, including encouraging his only son to attend Baylor when he was making $3 an hour. It worked and I live every day honoring my father for his encouragement and example.

The difference in me and Stranger is that when I was at Baylor, I happened to pledge a fraternity which had a member whose father happened to be the president of Baylor. What a giant that president was. The young folks on this thread don't know Abner McCall, but without his leadership in the dark days of the 1960's, Baylor truly would have become Hardin Simmons, East Texas Baptist, etc.

Abner's son required us pledges to bring Abner a bottle of liquid to his house in Castle Heights. It was an honor. That man, by himself, kept Baylor afloat and in the Southwest Conference when by all rights we should have been ejected. That's a great story for another time. Every Baylor fan should be obligated to read Abner's story, the story of the Fort Worth Masonic School he attended and played on their state championship team and how he made his way to Baylor and lived with the family of Matt Dawson, my practice court teacher at Baylor Law School. Mad Dog Dawson. A giant in the legal profession.

I digress, but Abner knew then that Baylor would not be able to compete with UT and others as a research institution, but had a place and a mission that made its existence important. Baylor has not had a president with his guile, wit, toughness, intellect and understanding since his departure.

Abner, and those following him, knew or should have known, that Baylor would never be able to compete, on an annual basis, with the football giants of the world. He didn't care. He just wanted Baylor to be in the fray, and thus able to compete and make the financial strides necessary to compete and sustain.

Long before the widely known and discussed situation with Baylor at the end of the SWC when TCU and SMU were left out, Baylor was on the ragged edge of being excluded from the SWC. Abner knew of a nuance in the by-laws of the SWC, and he played his cards beautifully at a president's meeting in Austin. He left the meeting with those attending in awe of his genius and he kept Baylor in the game, in the SWC. Again, you young folks have no idea of what it was like back then. Without Abner McCall, Baylor would not look like what it does today.

The man was pure genius.

Sorry for rambling on, but the gist of all of this is that Stranger is right, Baylor has never seen itself as an "institution of football" and nothing is going to change. We caught lightning in a bottle and we left the cork on the table. The lightning is gone. It's not going to return.

The best I can hope for in my remaining time on this planet is Teaff-like. I suppose that would be just fine. Hopefully Rhule can be Teaff, version 2. I doubt it, but I'll give the man his time. If he fails, Katy bar the door.


Sic'Em Bears

PS...thanks for the great start to this thread Stranger...you know of what you speak.

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That's an interesting post. Would love to see details of what Judge McCall did back in the day.

Having said that, "The folks who control Baylor have never seen Baylor as a place where football mattered" is a dubious statement. That may have been true in the past. After all, how many times had Baylor invested the resources needed to develop a top-level football program before our most recent history? It hadn't.

Starting in about 1972, the playing field was leveled as the NCAA (Thanks, Title IX) started placing scholarship limits on football programs. Once scholarship limits leveled the playing field, there was no longer any legitimate excuse for not competing. For many years thereafter, however, Baylor completed only because they had a great coach who could do more with less. He was certainly given less. What followed Teaff was a series of coaches who, to be very generous, might have been successful had they been given resources comparable to their competition. They were not given comparable resources and they were not successful. Finally, Baylor committed to providing the resources needed to compete at a high level--a new indoor practice facility, a new stadium, new weight rooms, a nutrition center, an academic support center and, very importantly, paying market rate for a coaching staff instead of doing something on the cheap. We saw the results of this on the field when combined with Art Briles' offensive genius. All of the resources needed to win are still in place. Teaff had just cause to not be competitive, Rhule does not. As long as the institution remains committed to the logistics of a top level football program, and they are committed to it right now, the last 60 years doesn't matter.

Jacques Strap said:

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80sBEAR said:

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(1) As a Baylor Alumni, I am just tired. If football is expendable to the leadership of this university there is really not a whole lot any of us can do about it. (2) It seems at this point, I have little in common with the people leading Baylor University. That is reality. (3) Baylor University has killed my passion for not only Baylor Football, but college football. Time to focus on more important things.

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I agree with #1 totally. Tired of rehashing what was done and what could have been done. It is what it is, and I'm tired of playing the "what if" game. Now I still do post on "what if" issues on occasion but mostly I am tired of it. Also tired of nit picking CMR. He is who he is. Now I'll gripe too but I'm kinda tired of that too. Maybe I just need to rest up so I can mumble & grumble some more. At the end of the day he is the coach and I can't change anything about university priorities.

I agree with #2. I'm no big money guy and have zero influence. Never had it never will have it. If the BOR are U2 level rock stars I'm the guy playing in a casino cover band in North Dakota on the 3am shift in January. Zero influence.

#3 - Well, I'll still watch the games because I can't seem to turn away and I'll still hope we can win and I'll moan when plays like the snap over the head of Zach @ KSU happen. The days of excitement about possible Big 12 championships are over. The nights when you could not sleep because you kept turning the loss @WVU over in your head are gone though. Now when we lose it doesn't ruin my day. I turn off the TV and my the game has zero impact on my mood. OSU blew us out, oh well where are we heading for dinner? Maybe we'll get back to the days when losses were crushing and we obsessed over the injury status of the team but it won't be anytime soon IMHO. Winter is not coming, but apathy is.

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Brother Strap, you have described my sentiments and mental and emotional place almost verbatim.
Helps to know I have Baylor brothers like you.
Blessings.
PR

Brian Ethridge said:

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TellMeYouLoveMe said:

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Pale Rider said:

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At least this thread proves that this season and it's disaster so far is due to much greater systemic problems than just poor coaching and a 180 in football philosophy.

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Pale,

despite all the evidence to the contrary. Including nearly taking a job at UT, writing a book saying he entertained any offer thrown at him and telling anyone with an ear that he was leaving to coach the Cowboys or Longhorns....

NOT ONE of the people elected to the Board at Baylor had a backup plan for the day Art Briles left.

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This is not true. There was a P5 coach committed to come if Art had left after Tempe. Some BMD Regents had money whipped a guy and he was down with it.

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It was Gundy wasn't it? Always heard he enjoyed his time in Waco and would come back when things were bad with Pickens. Really wanted him this go around.

I don't blame coach, he came from a conference, not a power 5 conference....just a conference. We look a lot like Temple now, and well, that was ok in the "conference" on occasion. This is the big time and called for a big time coach. FIU gets who?
Coach hasn't prepared these kids yet for a team they are playing. Read Liberty. You can't hire a Chiropractor to do brain surgery.
Welcome to the 70's again. Thank the lord for Mike Singletary, He made the games fun.
I do however blame the brain trust that offered him this job waaaaay before he was ready.
Had to watch the OK state game on Fox Business channel. I'm guessing I should be thankful they televise them now at all.
I don't get it. Tons of great power 5 coaches out their and we go for a commuter school in Philly.
By the way did you see how powerful the Arizona state defense was Saturday night? oh , yes, he used to be our coordinator. Did he do something wrong to get fired? Kendall Briles, other than his last name, was he proven complicit and had to go? Art was evil and caused it all... but why everyone?
topic for another post.
Still saying Sic em since 1979.

Ask ab Kendal's recruiting tactics.

He worked in the home building industry before we hired his Dad. He had racked up a DUI/DWI so few school districts would hire him or universities for that matter.

Anything can happen but he's a decade away from being a professional that can handle a press conference.

Gymyd said:

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I don't blame coach, he came from a conference, not a power 5 conference....just a conference. We look a lot like Temple now, and well, that was ok in the "conference" on occasion. This is the big time and called for a big time coach. FIU gets who?
Coach hasn't prepared these kids yet for a team they are playing. Read Liberty. You can't hire a Chiropractor to do brain surgery.
Welcome to the 70's again. Thank the lord for Mike Singletary, He made the games fun.
I do however blame the brain trust that offered him this job waaaaay before he was ready.
Had to watch the OK state game on Fox Business channel. I'm guessing I should be thankful they televise them now at all.
I don't get it. Tons of great power 5 coaches out their and we go for a commuter school in Philly.
By the way did you see how powerful the Arizona state defense was Saturday night? oh , yes, he used to be our coordinator. Did he do something wrong to get fired? Kendall Briles, other than his last name, was he proven complicit and had to go? Art was evil and caused it all... but why everyone?
topic for another post.
Still saying Sic em since 1979.

---

That Arizona State D is still one of the worst in the nation. A blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while.

Stranger said:

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Then Art Briles caught fire with RG III. It was sweet till his ride came to an end. Us old guys knew it couldn't last.

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So you knew about sexual assaults? Because that was the reason. If they had taken care of that problem, Baylor would be a perennial top 10 team.

So how did you know it wouldn't last?

EvilTroyAndAbed said:

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Stranger said:

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Then Art Briles caught fire with RG III. It was sweet till his ride came to an end. Us old guys knew it couldn't last.

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So you knew about sexual assaults? Because that was the reason. If they had taken care of that problem, Baylor would be a perennial top 10 team.

So how did you know it wouldn't last?

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That post was a giant leap from what I said. Forgive me if I wasn't crystal clear.

I had absolutely no knowledge or idea about any sexual assaults. I was just as stunned by Briles firing as nearly everybody else.

By saying I knew it wouldn't last probably should have been we knew it was too good to last. A little age and wisdom is applied here. I was speaking for a bunch of us old farts who have been watching Baylor football for a long time. In all of those decades of watching bad Baylor football, we have developed a somewhat pessimistic attitude when it comes to the Bears. It's like waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I never thought the program would fall apart because of sexual assaults. Did I think it might for other reasons? Sure. But it wasn't because I knew something.

Programs usually fall apart because of cheating and violations or because somebody hires your coach.

There's a lot of money flows around a good program. Kids get paid, people take exams for players, any kind of thing. And when somebody is upsetting the apple cart like Baylor was doing in the conference, you make enemies. And those enemies will either turn you in for a violation and manufacture some story that rules have been violated. Happens all the time. Especially to some little church school who is all of a sudden winning league championships.

From the day that Art started winning the rumors started flying that he was leaving. That's what happens.
First I heard he was going to Texas Tech in 2009. My sources say it came close to happening. Then it was the Dallas Cowboys. I never put much credence in that one but it could have happened because I knew Briles was ambitious and wanted to be the best coach in Texas.

Then came Texas. I was pretty sure he was a goner. Art had worked his way from the bottom in the Texas high school game and it is a given that the dream job for every high school coach is to be the coach at the University of Texas. I'd bet money on him leaving. The deal went sideways for several reasons but there is no doubt in my mind that Art wanted that job. Baylor coughed up the money and he stayed but I never felt very good about him staying after that. Art's attitude changed after that and he viewed himself as bulletproof. It was never a question of if he would leave, but when.

So to answer your dubious question, I never knew anything about him leaving but age and wisdom told a bunch of us that it could happen any time. As 'ol Delbert McClinton has sung many times ,"Don't nothin last forever."

Enjoy it while you can cause those good times can turn to bad in the wink of an eye.

I tried to be kind to you in my reply. As my daddy often told me, if you're gonna pull for Baylor you are going to be long suffering. Expect it.

I figured that the leadership at BU would find a way to screw the pooch during Briles' success. Turns out they did, even if unintentionally. The pass to TWill against OU forced these guys' hands to pony up and match Drayton's $$ and most football lovers' dream for BU.

Gust Avrakotos said:

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Thee University said:

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Gymyd said:

---

I don't blame coach, he came from a conference, not a power 5 conference....just a conference. We look a lot like Temple now, and well, that was ok in the "conference" on occasion. This is the big time and called for a big time coach. FIU gets who?
Coach hasn't prepared these kids yet for a team they are playing. Read Liberty. You can't hire a Chiropractor to do brain surgery.
Welcome to the 70's again. Thank the lord for Mike Singletary, He made the games fun.
I do however blame the brain trust that offered him this job waaaaay before he was ready.
Had to watch the OK state game on Fox Business channel. I'm guessing I should be thankful they televise them now at all.
I don't get it. Tons of great power 5 coaches out their and we go for a commuter school in Philly.
By the way did you see how powerful the Arizona state defense was Saturday night? oh , yes, he used to be our coordinator. Did he do something wrong to get fired? Kendall Briles, other than his last name, was he proven complicit and had to go? Art was evil and caused it all... but why everyone?
topic for another post.
Still saying Sic em since 1979.

---

That Arizona State D is still one of the worst in the nation. A blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while.

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Speaking of blind hogs...when will Jersey find his?

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GoldBear said:

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At first I thought, what is this s***. Then I realized it's on the free board. Was going to say I hope you didn't waste too much time on this, but as you were.

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You are saying this about the famous "Stranger from Ranger" .......... sacrilege.

Let me see you get a perfect score on the Gong Show! The real Gong Show.

Grrrrrrr..

Ole Stranger dude is pretty dang smart. Well just make that smart.

keysjaws said:

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Good stories of past times do not the future make....that's where you all are... in the past. You do not know what is in store for the future of Baylor football. While the past is a good predictor of the future, I for one will continue to root for the underdogs as I have all my life.

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And that's a valid stance. One that has held strong forever until the winning and excitement, etc brought MANY new fans and interest.....that has tilted the status quo. 40, 30, 20, 10 yrs ago there was not enough interest to demand better. But winning brought numbers that has upset lots of quiet apple carts. Now there is pushback. Won't matter much imo as seasons pass. Interest will wane and all will be quiet and right again.

Brian Ethridge said:

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RightRevBear said:

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Brian Ethridge said:

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MilliVanilli said:

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Brian Ethridge said:

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MilliVanilli said:

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Brian Ethridge said:

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TellMeYouLoveMe said:

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Pale Rider said:

---

At least this thread proves that this season and it's disaster so far is due to much greater systemic problems than just poor coaching and a 180 in football philosophy.

---

Pale,

despite all the evidence to the contrary. Including nearly taking a job at UT, writing a book saying he entertained any offer thrown at him and telling anyone with an ear that he was leaving to coach the Cowboys or Longhorns....

NOT ONE of the people elected to the Board at Baylor had a backup plan for the day Art Briles left.

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This is not true. There was a P5 coach committed to come if Art had left after Tempe. Some BMD Regents had money whipped a guy and he was down with it.

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Who's the coach they had lined up as a safety net?

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Doesn't matter now. He's still coaching somewhere else.

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Successfully? You don't have to name drop, that will just knock the list down to the the Top 25.

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Nope, not giving up that info.

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Hmm, can you tell us if he has a better conference record than Rhule does this year?

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Is this a trick question?

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No, it was said tongue in check. I don't really do emojis, but maybe I should have.

MilliVanilli said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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One thing we have been told over and over again on this message board is that those of us who are pissed off and suspicious about whether this was handled well just care too much about football. Our priorities are out of whack. We do not care about victims of sexual assault. We are not an institution of football.

Ok. The message is clear. De-emphasize football. At a minimum, de-emphasize caring about whether we win. That reprioritization does not end at the institutional level. It inevitably flows down through the fan base. Part of the problem is that some of us have just been slow to take our cues.

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OR care about football, but care about winning with integrity over winning at all costs.

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Integrity has announced it is re-opening the recruiting process.

robby44 said:

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Stranger
Thanks for that great heartfelt post

When I signed my LOI with Baylor in 1982 it was with hopes of one day winning the SWC and playing in the Cotton Bowl
We got close a couple of years but fell short

2 years ago while sitting in some fantastic club seats at AT&T stadium I remember thinking "well we finally made it to the Cotton Bowl!"
I used to always tell my friend can you believe we are being mentioned in the same sentence as Ohio St and all the rest of the top traditional powerhouses. I felt well we deserve to have this success why not we have a lot to offer

Sadly from what I've seen so we may never reach those highs again
If we don't win a game this year and don't come up big next year its going to get very difficult to bring in difference makers. Kids want to play for chance to go to bowls and with championship rings. I'm afraid we are on the edge of heading down another downward spiral that's going to be very difficult to pull out of

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My source (I won't name them) says to smack it up, flip it and rub it down.

ABC BEAR said:

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MilliVanilli said:

---

Robert Wilson said:

---

One thing we have been told over and over again on this message board is that those of us who are pissed off and suspicious about whether this was handled well just care too much about football. Our priorities are out of whack. We do not care about victims of sexual assault. We are not an institution of football.

Ok. The message is clear. De-emphasize football. At a minimum, de-emphasize caring about whether we win. That reprioritization does not end at the institutional level. It inevitably flows down through the fan base. Part of the problem is that some of us have just been slow to take our cues.

---

OR care about football, but care about winning with integrity over winning at all costs.

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Integrity has announced it is re-opening the recruiting process.

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Under-rated post! Excellent!

la1037 said:

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It's Bad fit. Painfully obvious to anyone with an understanding of Texas Football. We trusted our future to Mack Roades. A man who doesn't have a degree from Baylor and who can walk away from Baylor with money and not a second thought.

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I may be wrong but I don't think the majority of the 30+ Baylor Regents have degrees from Baylor either.

Let's face it - we are potentially facing a "Charlie Weis" situation. Any head coach will be able to come in here with a huge contract and rip out the engine all over again and say "screw you if I am right, screw you if I am wrong." Kansas has won two (2) Big XII games in the 6 years since Charlie Weis was hired as their head coach, and they had to pay him millions to go away.

MilliVanilli said:

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Robert Wilson said:

---

One thing we have been told over and over again on this message board is that those of us who are pissed off and suspicious about whether this was handled well just care too much about football. Our priorities are out of whack. We do not care about victims of sexual assault. We are not an institution of football.

Ok. The message is clear. De-emphasize football. At a minimum, de-emphasize caring about whether we win. That reprioritization does not end at the institutional level. It inevitably flows down through the fan base. Part of the problem is that some of us have just been slow to take our cues.

---

OR care about football, but care about winning with integrity over winning at all costs.

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Exactly. Thank you.

witchmo said:

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Don't get into a historical debate with Stranger....he's got that down, even the times prior to the late 60's!

I don't have a clue whether Matt is The Man or not. He certainly "looks" and "sounds" the part well. Character is top shelf. My only clue prior to the season about his football acumen is the session with the other coaches during the Natty game this year, he was quick on the draw in seeing what was coming on the field--the mistakes being made--and solutions to the problems. He seemed a step ahead of the other guys--and some pretty good coaches.

I have questions at this point like everyone else, including really knowledgeable football guys, which is not me. Only time will answer a lot of the questions and we evidently have a couple of years. Personally, I'd like to see some "answers" the next few weeks, starting this Saturday. I don't know what those are necessarily but I now what they would look like.

I don't think Ruhle and staff are Teaff Part 2 for the simple reason that they have resources Grant could have only in his best dreams. But I also know that long-haul winning at a .500-.600 level wont get it done, either.

I also don't think this staff is Steele-esque in any way. Because of that, I think its unwise to use the term "Building it the right way". That is a given--that's your job and the basketball $$ disaster in the news affirms that fact. And the adage "Trust the process" runs over my neurons like so many of the church mantras I hear in Baptist churches. What does that mean and what does that look like? What are we trusting? Matt, we trusting you and your staff to succeed--we trusting the governance folks to stay the heck out of the program beyond oversight: no micromanaging. Not much else to trust it seems to me.

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Nobody knows the answer to this...not even Rhule. It's just a platitude at this point.

"I will be your hero now."

TellMeYouLoveMe said:

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Art didn't want to be at Baylor. People need to get it through their heads. His plan was to take all of the staff and leave for another job. He picked a fight and the net result was he ended up paid out and unemployable. Art did some of his more interesting coaching activities behind closed doors. That's the final conclusion.

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