TheAgentGrant said:

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Dude, I met the guy with tears in my eyes in Houston, TX IN a private meeting. Madden? Who the hell plays Madden. I want him to win. You must be a Millennial. Don't tell me I am not giving anyone a chance. I played a long time. I came out of a very good program in HS, that spit out pro athletes like chiclets. I am not coming from "an intramural badass" side of things there Mr. FANB....I'm not a fan, I am a former player at BU that expects to win, but you keep waiting on that 4th season. Know who your talking to man....geez

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Will you drop the whole "you don't know who you're talking to" BS? Not because I don't value your opinion, but because I literally wasn't talking to you.

Bearish said:

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TheAgentGrant said:

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Dude, I met the guy with tears in my eyes in Houston, TX IN a private meeting. Madden? Who the hell plays Madden. I want him to win. You must be a Millennial. Don't tell me I am not giving anyone a chance. I played a long time. I came out of a very good program in HS, that spit out pro athletes like chiclets. I am not coming from "an intramural badass" side of things there Mr. FANB....I'm not a fan, I am a former player at BU that expects to win, but you keep waiting on that 4th season. Know who your talking to man....geez

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Will you drop the whole "you don't know who you're talking to" BS? Not because I don't value your opinion, but because I literally wasn't talking to you.

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Yeah, that was pretty out there. Still your Fan A and Fan B analysis is spot on.

Bearish said:

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Krieg said:

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Bearish said:

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Krieg said:

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Bearish said:

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PartyBear said:

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Rhule pledged "at least 6 wins" even 3 weeks ago. He will not deliver and hence whatever other things he says about his process are also lacking credibility. Rhule is shot here.

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We're 5-6 with a shot at a bowl. You can count on one hand the number of plays that makes this team 7-4 right now.

His process is working just fine. You just don't like being in the middle of it.

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This is such a stupid argument. It was used last year and it's being used again this year.

Good coaches don't want to be within a score in the 4th with a chance to win. Good coaches want to be ahead in the 1st quarter and build an insurmountable lead ASAP. There's your core difference between Rhule and competent coaches. He's excited that we could've won had everything gone just right. We'll never have a game where everything goes right, and in fact yesterday we had a TON of things go our way and still lost:

- 40 TCU players out, supposedly
- Played against their 3rd string QB that had zero experience and hadn't practiced thinking he'd play, and he had to play basically the entire game
- TCU was missing their best player because he's a criminal (allegedly)

Yet we still found a way to lose.

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I'm only arguing that we are improving. Perhaps at a slower pace than we'd all like, but most of us (myself included) were in denial about just how big of a rebuild this job was.

You can be disappointed in a loss, but there is nothing warranting firing this guy. Absolutely nothing. In fact, I challenge you to find one person outside of the CAB-loving Baylor bubble that agrees CMR is underperforming and should be fired. Any article, sound bite or video will do.

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For someone that already hired him, though, you're right. We don't have a great reason to fire him.

For someone that thought this was a dumb hire the day it was made (me, for instance) I see a TON of reasons he shouldn't have been hired in the first place.

Maybe that's where we differ. Rhoads should be fired for hiring someone that wanted to nuke everything our team and on-field reputation was built on after lying about doing the opposite, though. He's the reason we hired a guy that keeps trying to cram square pegs in round holes.

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You're definitely right about where we differ. I took a wait and see approach from the day we hired him, and I've been sleeping pretty well at night the past two years.

This is what Ive observed from several Baylor fans:

Fan A hated the hire from the beginning, then we lost to Liberty, and Fan A developed this "I told you so" mentality at that point. From then on out, every loss, questionable decision and even the things said at press conferences are used as justification for Fan A's hastily-prepared opinion, which was formed prior to the man stepping foot on campus. Fan A is doomed. Either the team loses, and all his b1tching is validated, or the team wins and he's backtracking from all his previous b1tching. Either way, that guy is a miserable SOB.

Fan B, on the other hand, decided that he'd have to give it some time (at least three years) before even being in a position to form an opinion. Fan B did see what Rhule did at Temple, though, and believed it was possible for him to do the same here. Then we lost to Liberty. At this point, Fan B realized the rebuilding job was much bigger than anyone thought, and prayed the team would show signs of continuous improvement a la Temple Football during 2013-2016. Fan B is a happier person because, at least at this point, it's impossible to be wrong. He hasn't laid claim to something he "knows" because he's watched hundreds of games on TV and is a badass at Madden.

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You just utterly destroyed the nail with this one. Drove that sucker in with one swing.

TheAgentGrant said:

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Dude, I met the guy with tears in my eyes in Houston, TX IN a private meeting. Madden? Who the hell plays Madden. I want him to win. You must be a Millennial. Don't tell me I am not giving anyone a chance. I played a long time. I came out of a very good program in HS, that spit out pro athletes like chiclets. I am not coming from "an intramural badass" side of things there Mr. FANB....I'm not a fan, I am a former player at BU that expects to win, but you keep waiting on that 4th season. Know who your talking to man....geez

---

What years did you letter and what were your teams' records at Baylor? And unless you were one of those pro athletes being spit out like Chiclets, what relevance does that sentence have to this discussion?

Know who you're talking to? Seriously? That would be a lot easier if I could find your name in the letterwinners section of a Baylor media guide.

Don't need to.

Bearish said:

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If we don't fumble inside our own 30, they don't kick a field goal. If we don't fumble in the red zone, we potentially score a TD. There's your game, fellas. Blame coaches all you want, but players can lose you games, too.

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Good teams overcome those mistakes and we had plenty of time to put frog away. This game was a full game of inept offense, both design and execution. Yeah, players do lose the games but in this case, they were given little chance of success.

The correlation between turnover margin and winning percentage is extremely high.

Teams that average -2 turnovers average around one win per season. Teams that average +2 turnover margin average close to 12 wins per season.

Baylor had was -3 vs TCU, Yet you want to downplay that -

Keyser Soze said:

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The correlation between turnover margin and winning percentage is extremely high.

Teams that average -2 turnovers average around one win per season. Teams that average +2 turnover margin average close to 12 wins per season.

Baylor had was -3 vs TCU, Yet you want to downplay that -

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No downplay at all. Even with those, we still had time and opportunity to win that game.

One could also argue that being close with a -3 turnover margin means some things are going right.

Kind of depends on the old half full half empty way you look at things.

witchmo said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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The correlation between turnover margin and winning percentage is extremely high.

Teams that average -2 turnovers average around one win per season. Teams that average +2 turnover margin average close to 12 wins per season.

Baylor had was -3 vs TCU, Yet you want to downplay that -

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No downplay at all. Even with those, we still had time and opportunity to win that game.

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But we didn't win, did we?

Bearish said:

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If we don't fumble inside our own 30, they don't kick a field goal. If we don't fumble in the red zone, we potentially score a TD. There's your game, fellas. Blame coaches all you want, but players can lose you games, too.

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Also, add in making the tackle on Jalen Reagors 65 yard TD, and keep contain on his reverse. Their offence hadn't done much of anything outside of those 2 plays. Those 2 plays were 102 of their 311 yards of total offence.

Whoever is responsible for putting us in two tights, I-formation in critical situations is the one who needs to be fired. We don't have the roster for that style. Makes me crazy!!!

hitmanmw said:

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Whoever is responsible for putting us in two tights, I-formation in critical situations is the one who needs to be fired. We don't have the roster for that style. Makes me crazy!!!

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Did you complain about this all the other times it worked?

Timbear said:

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The reason turnover margin did not matter in this particular game is because TCU fielded it's worst team in 10 years on Saturday. With 3 TO they only scored 16 points...yet...Rhule will NOT look at himself as a factor in the loss. After a loss like this, Prestonwood Baptist needs to ramp up the PR machine, and schedule him to speak at the next Brotherhood Meeting.

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Was literally about to type the same thing. We sucked but kept the game close because TCU is simply awful. Just a horrible, terrible football team these days. Yet we lost to them....so what does that say about us???

hodedofome said:

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Timbear said:

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The reason turnover margin did not matter in this particular game is because TCU fielded it's worst team in 10 years on Saturday. With 3 TO they only scored 16 points...yet...Rhule will NOT look at himself as a factor in the loss. After a loss like this, Prestonwood Baptist needs to ramp up the PR machine, and schedule him to speak at the next Brotherhood Meeting.

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Was literally about to type the same thing. We sucked but kept the game close because TCU is simply awful. Just a horrible, terrible football team these days. Yet we lost to them....so what does that say about us???

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Says should've got them then, cause GP ain't sitting on his hands 'hoping' things will get better.

The I formation has "worked " ( gained yardage) Very seldom, while slowing down the O and telegraphing the play, and allowing the other D to almost always shut us down. How many of the top 10 teams this year run I formation regularly. NONE. Yet, our brilliant coach makes it a staple.

CoachHBU2008 said:

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I'm curious to know who you thought should of been hired. Not trying to antagonize you. I sincerely would like to know. Thanks!

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Someone that respected what came before him would've been step one. Nobody was going to be Briles 2.0 as I don't think there's another coach if his offensive quality in the country. Rhule talked about bringing power running to a team that led the entire country in rushing by mostly running between the tackles in 2015. He talked about bringing defense to the Big 12 because he didn't understand that we had a really good defense for a few years there just not in total yards/points because they defended a lot of extra possessions. If he'd looked at efficiency stats he'd have known better.

So, to understand who I would've hired I think you have to know why I always thought he was a bad hire: he didn't understand not respect what made us so good before his arrival.

On the hiring front, we should've hired a guy that knew HUNH offense really well or a HC that was fully committed to winning with HUNH offense and living with the stress that put on the defense. That would've fit our personnel a LOT better and led to much better seasons. I also would've hired a guy that would work like crazy to recruit the guys that were already on campus. By that I mean keep the TWs, KD Cannon, etc. Briles kept a certain OL in year one from leaving early and it helped in year one. Rhule is a "my way or the highway" guy and it showed in the departures. The parent of a current player (that LOVES Rhule btw) confirmed he came in with that attitude.

As for specific names it's hard to say as I don't know who would've come. An excellent OC (Riley?) or a G5 guy that had a lot of offensive success would've been the places I looked unless the Gundy thing was legit. If that was I would've hired him immediately.

Keyser Soze said:

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One could also argue that being close with a -3 turnover margin means some things are going right.

Kind of depends on the old half full half empty way you look at things.

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The only thing that really went right was that we hurt their 2nd string QB that was their starter and then got to defend their 3rd stringer the rest of the game. We scored 9 points. Nothing went right on offense.

Krieg said:

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Bearish said:

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Krieg said:

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Bearish said:

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Krieg said:

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Bearish said:

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PartyBear said:

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Rhule pledged "at least 6 wins" even 3 weeks ago. He will not deliver and hence whatever other things he says about his process are also lacking credibility. Rhule is shot here.

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We're 5-6 with a shot at a bowl. You can count on one hand the number of plays that makes this team 7-4 right now.

His process is working just fine. You just don't like being in the middle of it.

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This is such a stupid argument. It was used last year and it's being used again this year.

Good coaches don't want to be within a score in the 4th with a chance to win. Good coaches want to be ahead in the 1st quarter and build an insurmountable lead ASAP. There's your core difference between Rhule and competent coaches. He's excited that we could've won had everything gone just right. We'll never have a game where everything goes right, and in fact yesterday we had a TON of things go our way and still lost:

- 40 TCU players out, supposedly
- Played against their 3rd string QB that had zero experience and hadn't practiced thinking he'd play, and he had to play basically the entire game
- TCU was missing their best player because he's a criminal (allegedly)

Yet we still found a way to lose.

---

I'm only arguing that we are improving. Perhaps at a slower pace than we'd all like, but most of us (myself included) were in denial about just how big of a rebuild this job was.

You can be disappointed in a loss, but there is nothing warranting firing this guy. Absolutely nothing. In fact, I challenge you to find one person outside of the CAB-loving Baylor bubble that agrees CMR is underperforming and should be fired. Any article, sound bite or video will do.

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For someone that already hired him, though, you're right. We don't have a great reason to fire him.

For someone that thought this was a dumb hire the day it was made (me, for instance) I see a TON of reasons he shouldn't have been hired in the first place.

Maybe that's where we differ. Rhoads should be fired for hiring someone that wanted to nuke everything our team and on-field reputation was built on after lying about doing the opposite, though. He's the reason we hired a guy that keeps trying to cram square pegs in round holes.

---

You're definitely right about where we differ. I took a wait and see approach from the day we hired him, and I've been sleeping pretty well at night the past two years.

This is what Ive observed from several Baylor fans:

Fan A hated the hire from the beginning, then we lost to Liberty, and Fan A developed this "I told you so" mentality at that point. From then on out, every loss, questionable decision and even the things said at press conferences are used as justification for Fan A's hastily-prepared opinion, which was formed prior to the man stepping foot on campus. Fan A is doomed. Either the team loses, and all his b1tching is validated, or the team wins and he's backtracking from all his previous b1tching. Either way, that guy is a miserable SOB.

Fan B, on the other hand, decided that he'd have to give it some time (at least three years) before even being in a position to form an opinion. Fan B did see what Rhule did at Temple, though, and believed it was possible for him to do the same here. Then we lost to Liberty. At this point, Fan B realized the rebuilding job was much bigger than anyone thought, and prayed the team would show signs of continuous improvement a la Temple Football during 2013-2016. Fan B is a happier person because, at least at this point, it's impossible to be wrong. He hasn't laid claim to something he "knows" because he's watched hundreds of games on TV and is a badass at Madden.

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If my kid came home with Ds I don't praise him for making Cs next time when I know he's completely capable of making As. That's where Fan B in your analysis is dead wrong. You can't let someone failing inexplicably alter your expectations like that. You had your initial expectations for a reason.

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It's like someone coming into work 2 hours late, getting chewed out for it, then coming into work 10 minutes late the next day and not expecting to get chewed out again because hey, they did show significant improvement. Par for the course doesn't get adjusted post hoc

Too much talk about firing Matt Rhule without first having a plan on where we want to go. The first thing would be to fire Mach Rhoades because he picked Rhule and also paid him twice as much as he should have. After hiring a new AD let that person hire the new football coach.

Bearish said:

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PartyBear said:

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Rhule pledged "at least 6 wins" even 3 weeks ago. He will not deliver and hence whatever other things he says about his process are also lacking credibility. Rhule is shot here.

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We're 5-6 with a shot at a bowl. You can count on one hand the number of plays that makes this team 7-4 right now.

His process is working just fine. You just don't like being in the middle of it.

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A couple of plays from 2-9 as well.

hodedofome said:

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Timbear said:

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The reason turnover margin did not matter in this particular game is because TCU fielded it's worst team in 10 years on Saturday. With 3 TO they only scored 16 points...yet...Rhule will NOT look at himself as a factor in the loss. After a loss like this, Prestonwood Baptist needs to ramp up the PR machine, and schedule him to speak at the next Brotherhood Meeting.

---

Was literally about to type the same thing. We sucked but kept the game close because TCU is simply awful. Just a horrible, terrible football team these days. Yet we lost to them....so what does that say about us???

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TCU is not a horrible, terrible football team. Saying that over and over doesn't make it true. They're a mediocre football team on a similar level of everyone else in the bottom half of this thoroughly mediocre conference. Newsflash: the same is true of us. Sorry you deluded yourself into believing otherwise.

TCU's offense is terrible, and our defense limited it the same way other Big 12 opponents have, but they still have a good defense that would look much better statistically if it wasn't routinely undermined by its offense. They avoided the game-changing mistakes Saturday and we couldn't, which is why the outcome turned out as it did. Get all your tears out, accept it and move on.

Yep

TCU has no depth because of the rash of injuries. You want to wear down an opponent like that, but with the turnovers, TCU won the TOP 35 / 25

Matthew said:

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Bearish said:

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PartyBear said:

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Rhule pledged "at least 6 wins" even 3 weeks ago. He will not deliver and hence whatever other things he says about his process are also lacking credibility. Rhule is shot here.

---

We're 5-6 with a shot at a bowl. You can count on one hand the number of plays that makes this team 7-4 right now.

His process is working just fine. You just don't like being in the middle of it.

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A couple of plays from 2-9 as well.

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So which play would have turned a 17-point win over UTSA or a 19-point win over Kansas into a loss?

Keyser Soze said:

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Yep

TCU has no depth because of the rash of injuries. You want to wear down an opponent like that, but with the turnovers, TCU won the TOP 35 / 25

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The really frustrating part is I truly believe a touchdown on that first-and-goal from the 6 likely would have broken TCU's will and all but ensured a Baylor victory. It certainly would have changed the way they had to play offensively, forcing them to take chances they really didn't want to with an inexperienced third-string quarterback. Instead, we fumbled and the rest is history.

bear2be2 said:

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Matthew said:

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Bearish said:

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PartyBear said:

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Rhule pledged "at least 6 wins" even 3 weeks ago. He will not deliver and hence whatever other things he says about his process are also lacking credibility. Rhule is shot here.

---

We're 5-6 with a shot at a bowl. You can count on one hand the number of plays that makes this team 7-4 right now.

His process is working just fine. You just don't like being in the middle of it.

---

A couple of plays from 2-9 as well.

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So which play would have turned a 17-point win over UTSA or a 19-point win over Kansas into a loss?

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I was at the utsa game. It was much closer than the final score indicated. A couple of plays could have easily swung the game the other way. ACU and Kansas have been our only real blowouts this year. KState and OSU easily could've been losses.

I'm willing to bet that Nixon is OC for only one more game.

Does anybody really think that Rhule brought Marcus Satterfield here to be a recruiting coordinator? I don't.

https://baylorbears.com/staff.aspx?staff=380

Sic 'Em

Matthew said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Matthew said:

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Bearish said:

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PartyBear said:

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Rhule pledged "at least 6 wins" even 3 weeks ago. He will not deliver and hence whatever other things he says about his process are also lacking credibility. Rhule is shot here.

---

We're 5-6 with a shot at a bowl. You can count on one hand the number of plays that makes this team 7-4 right now.

His process is working just fine. You just don't like being in the middle of it.

---

A couple of plays from 2-9 as well.

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So which play would have turned a 17-point win over UTSA or a 19-point win over Kansas into a loss?

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I was at the utsa game. It was much closer than the final score indicated. A couple of plays could have easily swung the game the other way. ACU and Kansas have been our only real blowouts this year. KState and OSU easily could've been losses.

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Again which play(s) would have turned the UTSA game -- during which we outgained the Roadrunners 494-255 -- into a loss? We aren't a couple of plays from being 2-9. That's simply a factually inaccurate statement.

Could we have lost the K-State and OSU games? Absolutely. But just as moral victories don't count as actual wins, and no amount of reasoning will change that, you can't talk close victories into losses either. You either make the plays necessary to win or you don't. At this stage, being in those positions late in the fourth quarter is improvement. Ultimately, though, we'll need to find a way to finish more games when we have the opportunity.

bear2be2 said:

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TheAgentGrant said:

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Dude, I met the guy with tears in my eyes in Houston, TX IN a private meeting. Madden? Who the hell plays Madden. I want him to win. You must be a Millennial. Don't tell me I am not giving anyone a chance. I played a long time. I came out of a very good program in HS, that spit out pro athletes like chiclets. I am not coming from "an intramural badass" side of things there Mr. FANB....I'm not a fan, I am a former player at BU that expects to win, but you keep waiting on that 4th season. Know who your talking to man....geez

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What years did you letter and what were your teams' records at Baylor? And unless you were one of those pro athletes being spit out like Chiclets, what relevance does that sentence have to this discussion?

Know who you're talking to? Seriously? That would be a lot easier if I could find your name in the letterwinners section of a Baylor media guide.

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It must be exhausting to be the standard bearer for this awful staff. BOR houseboys must be well paid.

CottonValley said:

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bear2be2 said:

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TheAgentGrant said:

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Dude, I met the guy with tears in my eyes in Houston, TX IN a private meeting. Madden? Who the hell plays Madden. I want him to win. You must be a Millennial. Don't tell me I am not giving anyone a chance. I played a long time. I came out of a very good program in HS, that spit out pro athletes like chiclets. I am not coming from "an intramural badass" side of things there Mr. FANB....I'm not a fan, I am a former player at BU that expects to win, but you keep waiting on that 4th season. Know who your talking to man....geez

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What years did you letter and what were your teams' records at Baylor? And unless you were one of those pro athletes being spit out like Chiclets, what relevance does that sentence have to this discussion?

Know who you're talking to? Seriously? That would be a lot easier if I could find your name in the letterwinners section of a Baylor media guide.

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It must be exhausting to be the standard bearer for this awful staff. BOR houseboys must be well paid.

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I couldn't care less about and have never defended the BOR, so nice non-sequitur there. As for your first sentence, I would imagine I'm a lot happier individual than yourself.

Getting worked up over the exploits of 18-22 year old kids to the point that you're making an ass of yourself on a message board seems a lot more exhausting than taking a wait-and-see approach with a coach and staff that has followed this same blueprint to success on a similar schedule in the past.