Bear Ridge Selling?

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BamaGoose
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9:54a, 6/15/21
Guys, I dont want to come across as a know-it-all but I have been in golf business for over 35 years - leased, owned and managed courses primarily in the Mid South. I also had a stint as Director of Acquisitions for a nationally known golf management company. I say all that in hopes that my contribution to this conversation may be helpful. BTW- I am only vaguely familiar with Waco golf market since it was almost 20 years ago that I was part of entourage that accompanied Gary Player to the failed Lost River fiasco. so my knowledge of Bridge and CW is pretty dated.

First, there are so many unknowns, unfamiliar to all of us, it is hard for any of us on this site to evaluate if this would be a good deal for the city. Sales price is the most obvious but by no means the only factor. Here's a few other considerations:

- Maintenance equipment: is it leased or owned? Condition? Same questions with cart fleet. Together these two items alone usually account for $500K investment.

-Water: in coming years this is a huge factor across the country- thus the reason so many new courses are using effluent water for irrigation. What is water source for BR? Cost?

-What tax advantages come to the city course(s) that current ownership does not enjoy?

-Are city employees union members? How does that impact costs?

-How involved are City administrators in operation of the course. Yikes, a bunch of non-golf people overseeing golf operations is recipe for disaster

-City, in advance of purchase, could/should explore solicitation of bids by golf companies for management of the courses. This could relieve city of potential financial downsides and in most cases insure overall better operations of the course

-Economies of scale- some advantages of 2 courses is opportunity to share equipment (verti-cutter, topdresser, etc) and increase bulk orders for supplies to get price breaks

I will avoid further rambling, but you probably get the point- there is more to making this decision than might initially meet the eye. Hard for any of us, not privy to details, to weigh in. One poster mentioned the value of golf opportunities as incentive for attracting big business. Will a big company come here just because of good golf, probably not, but will it help the "total package"? You betcha

Sorry for lengthy post but thought it might spark more interesting discussion.

I must add again: cut the crap with petty insults and bickering. Sicem365 is too valuable an asset to be side tracked with that childish chatter
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loanbear
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10:07a, 6/15/21
Differences of opinion can be good it they don't lead to insults.

Bottom line is that a city and it's livability is judged by many things. Public spaces, parks, etc are one of the big components when employers are ranking places to relocate to. Obviously work force availability, cost of living, housing round out the other big things, but public parks and recreation are a bigger deal than it appears some might think.
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Stranger
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In reply to BamaGoose • 11:42a, 6/15/21
Goose70 said:
Guys, I dont want to come across as a know-it-all but I have been in golf business for over 35 years - leased, owned and managed courses primarily in the Mid South. I also had a stint as Director of Acquisitions for a nationally known golf management company. I say all that in hopes that my contribution to this conversation may be helpful. BTW- I am only vaguely familiar with Waco golf market since it was almost 20 years ago that I was part of entourage that accompanied Gary Player to the failed Lost River fiasco. so my knowledge of Bridge and CW is pretty dated.

First, there are so many unknowns, unfamiliar to all of us, it is hard for any of us on this site to evaluate if this would be a good deal for the city. Sales price is the most obvious but by no means the only factor. Here's a few other considerations:

- Maintenance equipment: is it leased or owned? Condition? Same questions with cart fleet. Together these two items alone usually account for $500K investment.

-Water: in coming years this is a huge factor across the country- thus the reason so many new courses are using effluent water for irrigation. What is water source for BR? Cost?

-What tax advantages come to the city course(s) that current ownership does not enjoy?

-Are city employees union members? How does that impact costs?

-How involved are City administrators in operation of the course. Yikes, a bunch of non-golf people overseeing golf operations is recipe for disaster

-City, in advance of purchase, could/should explore solicitation of bids by golf companies for management of the courses. This could relieve city of potential financial downsides and in most cases insure overall better operations of the course

-Economies of scale- some advantages of 2 courses is opportunity to share equipment (verti-cutter, topdresser, etc) and increase bulk orders for supplies to get price breaks

I will avoid further rambling, but you probably get the point- there is more to making this decision than might initially meet the eye. Hard for any of us, not privy to details, to weigh in. One poster mentioned the value of golf opportunities as incentive for attracting big business. Will a big company come here just because of good golf, probably not, but will it help the "total package"? You betcha

Sorry for lengthy post but thought it might spark more interesting discussion.

I must add again: cut the crap with petty insults and bickering. Sicem365 is too valuable an asset to be side tracked with that childish chatter


I hope your questions didn't queer the deal
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BamaGoose
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12:57p, 6/15/21
Sure wasnt my intention. But these are just a few items to explore as part of due diligence before any hold course purchase. The hold industry got in trouble about 15 yrs ago when Natl Golf Fndt was touting need for more courses. As a result, every 8 handicapper with some money wanted to build a course. Since many have folded as there dreams of easy money collapsed amid the glut of new courses. Today the golf market is more stable but golf is experiencing a decline in participation as time demands for an 28 hole round are too much for many people. Anyway, it seems to me BRidge might be a good opportunity for the city to explore.
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Stranger
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In reply to BamaGoose • 1:24p, 6/15/21
Goose70 said:
Sure wasnt my intention. But these are just a few items to explore as part of due diligence before any hold course purchase. The hold industry got in trouble about 15 yrs ago when Natl Golf Fndt was touting need for more courses. As a result, every 8 handicapper with some money wanted to build a course. Since many have folded as there dreams of easy money collapsed amid the glut of new courses. Today the golf market is more stable but golf is experiencing a decline in participation as time demands for an 28 hole round are too much for many people. Anyway, it seems to me BRidge might be a good opportunity for the city to explore.


you're a regular Merry Sunshine. are you a part of this deal or just butting in?
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baylrballa
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In reply to BamaGoose • 1:30p, 6/15/21
Goose70 said:
Sure wasnt my intention. But these are just a few items to explore as part of due diligence before any hold course purchase. The hold industry got in trouble about 15 yrs ago when Natl Golf Fndt was touting need for more courses. As a result, every 8 handicapper with some money wanted to build a course. Since many have folded as there dreams of easy money collapsed amid the glut of new courses. Today the golf market is more stable but golf is experiencing a decline in participation as time demands for an 28 hole round are too much for many people. Anyway, it seems to me BRidge might be a good opportunity for the city to explore.
I know you've made it clear how smart you are in this field, but golf exploded in 2020. You could argue it won't maintain, but it is certainly not in decline.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/national-golf-foundation-reports-numbers-for-2020-were-record-se
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BamaGoose
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2:06p, 6/15/21
Agreed. 2020 rounds were up. Contrary to the effect on most other businesses, golf was a welcome alternative during Covid lockdown. This contradicts the previous 10 year trend. So it has to hard to say if the 2020 rounds will be sustained. Also the "healthy walking golfers" which comprised an increased amount of the 2020 rounds, do little to help the golf business bottom line. Golf carts are a NECESSARY revenue stream for profitable daily fee or Muni course. Thanks for input and reminding me of the 2020 increase in rounds.

Remember it was NGF hype that most experts credit for the the overbuild of courses about 15-20 years ago. Keep their mission statement in mind as you read much of their hype.
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BamaGoose
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2:18p, 6/15/21
BTW, Baylrballa, I wasn't trying to make anything clear. I merely wanted to contribute to the conversation. Geez, man, kinda insecure, perhaps? I will bow out. I look forward to reading your knowledgeable posts about this.

Since you have researched this subject, you might expand your research and learn how many courses have closed over the past 5 years. Do you think they closed because of an explosion of golf activity? Don't let the 2020 spike fool you
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Brian Ethridge
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In reply to BamaGoose • 2:19p, 6/15/21
Staff
Goose70 said:
BTW, Baylrballa, I wasn't trying to make anything clear. I merely wanted to contribute to the conversation. Geez, man, kinda insecure, perhaps? I will bow out. I look forward to reading your knowledgeable posts about this.

Since you have researched this subject, you might expand your research and learn how many courses have closed over the past 5 years. Do you think they closed because of an explosion of golf activity? Don't let the 2020 spike fool you
Don't bow out.

Love reading this as it isn't my field, but can pick up things and learn.
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baylrballa
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In reply to BamaGoose • 2:29p, 6/15/21
Goose70 said:
BTW, Baylrballa, I wasn't trying to make anything clear. I merely wanted to contribute to the conversation. Geez, man, kinda insecure, perhaps? I will bow out. I look forward to reading your knowledgeable posts about this.

Since you have researched this subject, you might expand your research and learn how many courses have closed over the past 5 years. Do you think they closed because of an explosion of golf activity? Don't let the 2020 spike fool you


I just said how smart you are in this area, I actually did like parts of some of your last few posts.

A little confused though when you come in here high and mighty telling everyone to knock it off attacking each other and focus on the item at hand the less than 24 hours later call a poster presenting a factual article insecure.
I guess I have a lot to learn still about how to appropriately contribute to threads like you do.

I'll try though. No one said 2020 will be the norm. But when you introduce millions of people to a pretty awesome game that you can play for the rest of your life. Couple that with many people not tethered to an office building and commute 60 hours per week, and rearranging some priorities in life. There's plenty of reasons to be bullish moving forward.
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SSadler
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3:31p, 6/15/21
I haven't played the stupid game in 20 years.

But tell me which course Cooter, Brian and I could play where "whiff" "worm burner" "banana" "duck hook" "second mulligan" and "FORE" are part of every tee box banter . . . and I'm in.

(query: if/when the City takes over Bear Ridge will shirts be required? you know, asking for Cooter's sake)
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CorsicanaBear
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3:44p, 6/15/21
Golf can be strong in lots of places. But if nobody wants to pay to play in Waco in numbers consistent with having private courses here, why is it the City's job to step in? I don't know that they won't pay to play, but if the market is here it needs to be served by private interests, not the City. I do believe that if there potential golf club owners/operators thought there were enough demand to pay back the investment in a course (or multiple courses) those courses would exist. Investing in underserved entertainment options is just not a job for government.
Illigitimus non carborundum
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sipembeers
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In reply to SSadler • 3:50p, 6/15/21
SSadler said:
I haven't played the stupid game in 20 years.

But tell me which course Cooter, Brian and I could play where "whiff" "worm burner" "banana" "duck hook" "second mulligan" and "FORE" are part of every tee box banter . . . and I'm in.

(query: if/when the City takes over Bear Ridge will shirts be required? you know, asking for Cooter's sake)

Lake Waco is your place. Just cover up on 12 fairway, don't want to see that *****
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baylrballa
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In reply to CorsicanaBear • 3:55p, 6/15/21
CorsicanaBear said:
Investing in underserved entertainment options is just not a job for government.


I do understand there being two sides to the golf course argument but that's a bold statement.

So should the city pull out of maintaining Cameron Park, hold off on 4th of July fireworks, defend the zoo? Surely if there was interest it could be privately funded?
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91 Bear
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4:38p, 6/15/21
I do not really understand the argument that the City should buy Bear Ridge because it helps the city bring in businesses. At least not in this case. Bear Ridge has been around, in one form or another, for 20 years and open to the public the entire time. In that entire time I have been able to go play there just about anytime I desired. So, that service has been here and available. The city buying it creates nothing new. It does not create a single new hole. Maybe they maintain the course better moving forward, maybe not. As we all know, Bear Ridge is surrounded by nice housing. It is not going to go away like the Moody course. I just can't see any business looking at Waco and saying "well, the city owned Bear Ridge is such a better draw than a privately owned, but pubic course, Bear Ridge. Honest question, do you guys really think the course will be in that much better shape in 10 years under city leadership vs. private? If so, is that worth $100's of thousands of tax dollars, as that is what is pumped into Cottonwood to keep it afloat? Is Waco going to be that good at golf course maintenance that it justifies tax dollars vs just letting it stay private and using the tax dollars for some other purpose?

I support golf. I support Waco. I just can't see this as a real win for Waco taxpayers.
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Stranger
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5:03p, 6/15/21
i actually miss James Connally golf course
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trey3216
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In reply to 91 Bear • 5:04p, 6/15/21
91 Bear said:
I do not really understand the argument that the City should buy Bear Ridge because it helps the city bring in businesses. At least not in this case. Bear Ridge has been around, in one form or another, for 20 years and open to the public the entire time. In that entire time I have been able to go play there just about anytime I desired. So, that service has been here and available. The city buying it creates nothing new. It does not create a single new hole. Maybe they maintain the course better moving forward, maybe not. As we all know, Bear Ridge is surrounded by nice housing. It is not going to go away like the Moody course. I just can't see any business looking at Waco and saying "well, the city owned Bear Ridge is such a better draw than a privately owned, but pubic course, Bear Ridge. Honest question, do you guys really think the course will be in that much better shape in 10 years under city leadership vs. private? If so, is that worth $100's of thousands of tax dollars, as that is what is pumped into Cottonwood to keep it afloat? Is Waco going to be that good at golf course maintenance that it justifies tax dollars vs just letting it stay private and using the tax dollars for some other purpose?

I support golf. I support Waco. I just can't see this as a real win for Waco taxpayers.


I think you're bending the argument a bit here. I never said the city owning it helps the city bring in business. I said the city owning it and making sure it is maintained properly going forward, thus giving the city two well-maintained golf avenues in addition to the private club and a hopefully (at some damn point) improving Lake Waco, you'd have some nice golf options. Having nice options for entertainment in an area helps a company relocating to an area say "this is a nice area.. there's available land, solid entertainment options for our employees that we'll be relocating, and a good sense of community support for continuing that."

It can be done privately, and it's being done right now. At Tommy's age, he probably was never wanting to be owning and operating the course for very long. He wanted to get it back to being a nice place to play golf. He's done that for damn sure.

But running off and misreading/misrepresenting our comments about it doesn't add to the argument.

The point is, if the city is the new owner, the course will have better access to water (like Cottonwood does) which will help in maintaining it to current or better conditions going forward. It shows that the city thinks it's imperative to invest in its parks & rec, and that goes a long way to when/where companies decide to relocate businesses. It is a correlation /=/ causation argument.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
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Brian Ethridge
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In reply to Stranger • 5:05p, 6/15/21
Staff
Stranger said:
i actually miss James Connally golf course
Same. It was a great place to get a 400 yard drive on a hot summer day.
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trey3216
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In reply to Stranger • 5:07p, 6/15/21
Stranger said:
i actually miss James Connally golf course


Before it closed, I lost 2 balls I hit right down the middle of the fairway into cracks that were almost too big to drive a cart across, in the same round. I took a free drop.

I loved playing that course in the spring. I remember playing out there one time when Air Force 1 was landing and seeing the black Suburbans pull onto the course and watch us take our shots. Was pretty wild.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
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beerman
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5:10p, 6/15/21
I don't believe that Cottonwood has to be "kept afloat", not at all. They have relatively low overhead, they don't have land acquisition costs to cover, they have a fairly-paid staff, but well less than the market bears at other well-run facilities.

Cottonwood is turning people away from golf with their almost daily tournaments and 6 hour rounds, due to demand. As Goose stated so well, if there are synergies to be had and there isn't an initial dump of resources necessary to start, and, the sales price is right, I believe it's a no-brainer.

This is just my opinion, and while Tommy has lapped the previous ownerships accomplishments, I could never say that BR is in great, good or even fair shape. Tommy was making great progress but there was a long road ahead and although I don't know his personal financial position, I'm sure he had limits. BR is blessed with a talented super and a really interesting piece of dirt, it could be a great public-access course with memberships that discount rounds.

To say that there aren't exceptions to to the government getting involved in citizen's entertainment might have left Yellowstone as a development with a bunch of ranchettes.
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Weston Rogers
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5:20p, 6/15/21
Fwiw I've been told by GMs and supers of other central Texas courses that Cottonwood is the rare bird of a muni that turns a profit for the city. Also to those asking if Bear Ridge will be in better shape long term under city ownership the answer is 100% yes and that's all because of water costs for being a muni vs privately owned.
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CorsicanaBear
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5:22p, 6/15/21
Quote:
defend the zoo? Surely if there was interest it could be privately funded?
I don't defend the zoo. And you are correct. Citizens concerned about the lack of a zoo in any town should stand up and pay for one voluntarily instead of coercing others to pay for it.

I also don't defend public money for Baylor to build stadiums. Or for the Cowboys to do the same. Or for public high schools to build and maintain giant athletic stadiums at taxpayer expense. Art museums and concert halls also come to mind. Public spending for these sorts of things are all anathema as far as I am concerned.

Illigitimus non carborundum
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Stranger
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In reply to Brian Ethridge • 5:38p, 6/15/21
Brian Ethridge said:
Stranger said:
i actually miss James Connally golf course
Same. It was a great place to get a 400 yard drive on a hot summer day.


My wife and I played it the last day it was open
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91 Bear
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6:09p, 6/15/21
Cottonwood had an extra $140k dumped into it by the city in one year several years ago. Look it up in the trib. It might be turning a small profit now (I doubt it) but it has not always done so. I would hope the city would have to put all the financial cards on the table regarding its current course before buying another.
Also, if the city is dumping ****tons of water on a golf course don't some of those water expenses get passed on to tax payers, at least some percentage?
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BamaGoose
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6:11p, 6/15/21
Ok, I said I was going to bow out, but I cant help myself. As one guy accused me of doing, I will butt in again.

Corsicana, please keep this in mind as you say the city shouldn't expand in golf business. Many voices on this thread have expressed concerns about good course conditions being necessary for good experience. Duh. That takes money. A private owner will invest only if he can get reasonable return on investment. To provide the type of conditions you expect and yield owner profits, fees will go up. A city owned course can be operated at lower cost than what a private owner can do. Thus, if the course is operated by city as break even or modest profit, a very favorable green fee structure can be maintained and that becomes tangible benefit for tax payers. I bring this up just to give you another way to look at it. Again, I say too many unknowns for those of us on this thread to know if it is a good deal for the city or not. My apologies again to the guy who accused me of butting in! Lol
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toughbear
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8:41p, 6/15/21
Goose, you probably ought to consider looking first hand at this extremely mediocre golf course- true that it is better than 2 years ago but it is still not much of a course- it will cost a ton to bring it up to moderately good standards.
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BamaGoose
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8:59p, 6/15/21
Good point tough bear and you are right, I am commenting in the blind. However, if it is that bad the sales price should reflect that. Anyway, I am probably just yakking since I dont know the details. Enjoy the opportunity to talk golf with some good ol Baylor Bears.
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SSadler
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In reply to Stranger • 9:55p, 6/15/21
Stranger said:
Brian Ethridge said:
Stranger said:
i actually miss James Connally golf course
Same. It was a great place to get a 400 yard drive on a hot summer day.


My wife and I played it the last day it was open
400 yard drive = a "worm burner" at its very best
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CTbruin
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In reply to BamaGoose • 8:15a, 6/16/21
Goose70 said:
Good point tough bear and you are right, I am commenting in the blind. However, if it is that bad the sales price should reflect that. Anyway, I am probably just yakking since I dont know the details. Enjoy the opportunity to talk golf with some good ol Baylor Bears.
I live very close to Bear Ridge. The course is 100x better than when Tommy took over. IMO, better than toughbear has expressed.

I will continue to believe Bear Ridge is essential to make Waco, McLennan County a better place to live and work.
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baylrballa
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In reply to CTbruin • 8:23a, 6/16/21
CTbruin said:
Goose70 said:
Good point tough bear and you are right, I am commenting in the blind. However, if it is that bad the sales price should reflect that. Anyway, I am probably just yakking since I dont know the details. Enjoy the opportunity to talk golf with some good ol Baylor Bears.
I live very close to Bear Ridge. The course is 100x better than when Tommy took over. IMO, better than toughbear has expressed.

I will continue to believe Bear Ridge is essential to make Waco, McLennan County a better place to live and work.
agreed, extremely mediocre is a tough assessment.

It's hovering around average now which is fairly astonishing as it was unplayable 18 months ago. If they keep up half that trajectory it will be a huge asset in a couple more years. The layout is well above average (besides the stupid tee shot on #10)
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MrGolfguy
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In reply to toughbear • 8:28a, 6/16/21
toughbear said:
... looking first hand at this extremely mediocre golf course- true that it is better than 2 years ago but it is still not much of a course-
I totally disagree with this. It was only 'mediocre' when the pole vaulting previous owner allowed it to become a goat ranch. Tommy has really transformed it over the past year & its still getting better. When its properly maintained Bear Ridge is the best golf course in the area; winding thru beautiful Texas country with ancient oak trees, elevation changes, rolling hills, etc. Jacobsen & Hardy really built a first class course if you ask me.
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BamaGoose
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9:41a, 6/16/21
Really amazing. It fascinates me how 2 guys can see the same golf course and they see it so differently.
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BamaGoose
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9:48a, 6/16/21
Really amazing. It fascinates me how 2 guys can see the same golf course and they see it so differently.
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BamaGoose
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9:50a, 6/16/21
Oop's - sorry for double post.
Obviously technologically challenged!
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LionBear
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In reply to BamaGoose • 1:46p, 6/16/21
Goose70 said:
Really amazing. It fascinates me how 2 guys can see the same golf course and they see it so differently.

I have family members in the golf biz. One of them was a senior guy at the largest golf course owner/manager in the country. He now works at the PGA of America.

A couple of comments:

1. Rounds were up 20-30% across the board during Covid. While they don't expect that kind of growth (or even any growth) in the coming year, in a weird way CV-19 brought golf back to life across America.

2. Agree with you that cart revenue, alcohol revenue, etc are essential to profitability.

3. Waco is growing sufficiently enough (CV-19 really helped the town become a remote worker hub) where it needs more than one public course.

4. I don't know Bear Ridge's contract status for its water but it does sit very near the Bosque River if not right next to it, correct? One way a course can make a lot of EBITDA is to not have to pay for water. Bear Ridge may have that right now. If not, the City of Waco certainly has the leverage to get it from state authorities if needed. I don't know but this is a big factor.

5. Agree re equipment, maintenance costs, etc. However, a well run golf course is like a well run hotel or business. If you focus on delivering an A+ product to the customer, it is amazing how successful you can be with little to no marketing.

I wish Bear Ridge all the best which ever way this goes and give high praise to the current owner who took the risk to buy it back and turn it around. Kudo's. Not an easy thing to do.
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