Bear Ridge Selling?
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Last: 1 yr ago by 1outawayBear
Interesting that he lists the possible buyers. Knowing the quality of sources on this board, I am sure the City is who it is, but I am still holding out hope for ClubCorp!!!whitetrash said:
WTH finally reporting it:
https://wacotrib.com/sports/golf/tompkins-plans-to-sell-bear-ridge-expects-to-close-on-sale-by-early-july/article_11742dfc-ced0-11eb-95e7-03beb0c5a34c.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_&fbclid=IwAR194ZAxXAMm5T0zmOvipNCnSSMc3LKWkoKQ6qCqQVmbnCPH3aCXwqnkRa0
Weston Rogers said:
Fwiw I've been told by GMs and supers of other central Texas courses that Cottonwood is the rare bird of a muni that turns a profit for the city. Also to those asking if Bear Ridge will be in better shape long term under city ownership the answer is 100% yes and that's all because of water costs for being a muni vs privately owned.
Go to Page 263 of the PDF.
https://www.waco-texas.com/pdf/budget/3.2.21.COW20a.issued2.22.2021SIGNED.pdf
Per the latest Comprehensive Annual Financial Report for the fiscal year ended 9/30/2020:
Cottonwood Creek Golf Course had an operating loss of $313,750 for FYE 2020 and $331,448 for 2019.
Transfer In from the General Fund of $678,304 for FYE 2020 and $428,304 for 2019.
Total annual expenses was $1,903,771 for FYE 2020 and $2,094,332 for 2019.
Revenue (Charges for Services) was $1,590,021 for FYE 2020 and $1,762,884 for 2019. 2019 was the highest revenue in the previous 10 years and it still lost over $300k. Cottonwood is a money pit.
From page 67:
Advances to/from other funds
Receivable Fund Payable Fund Amount Water Nonmajor business-type $ 525,336
Nonmajor governmental Nonmajor business-type 168,368
$ 693,704
All advances resulted from loans to Cottonwood Creek Golf Course Fund made for operating and capital improvements since the City took over management responsibilities. Amounts are not expected to be paid within the next fiscal year.
I believe this note relates to the over $500k in free water the course was receiving.
WOW! This thread just took two new twists thanks to Bear CPA.
One thing for sure: Waco golf business has always had some unusual twists and turns
- B Ridge has a buyer.
- Cottonwood posts huge loses. If I was Waco taxpayer, I sure would like to see more itemization of $1.9M in expenses. Geez. That is a helluva lot of money for an 18-hole course situated on fairly subtle, easy to maintain property and a pretty modest clubhouse
One thing for sure: Waco golf business has always had some unusual twists and turns
BearCPA said:Weston Rogers said:
Fwiw I've been told by GMs and supers of other central Texas courses that Cottonwood is the rare bird of a muni that turns a profit for the city. Also to those asking if Bear Ridge will be in better shape long term under city ownership the answer is 100% yes and that's all because of water costs for being a muni vs privately owned.
Go to Page 263 of the PDF.
https://www.waco-texas.com/pdf/budget/3.2.21.COW20a.issued2.22.2021SIGNED.pdf
Per the latest Comprehensive Annual Financial Report for the fiscal year ended 9/30/2020:
Cottonwood Creek Golf Course had an operating loss of $313,750 for FYE 2020 and $331,448 for 2019.
Transfer In from the General Fund of $678,304 for FYE 2020 and $428,304 for 2019.
Total annual expenses was $1,903,771 for FYE 2020 and $2,094,332 for 2019.
Revenue (Charges for Services) was $1,590,021 for FYE 2020 and $1,762,884 for 2019. 2019 was the highest revenue in the previous 10 years and it still lost over $300k. Cottonwood is a money pit.
From page 67:
Advances to/from other funds
Receivable Fund Payable Fund Amount Water Nonmajor business-type $ 525,336
Nonmajor governmental Nonmajor business-type 168,368
$ 693,704
All advances resulted from loans to Cottonwood Creek Golf Course Fund made for operating and capital improvements since the City took over management responsibilities. Amounts are not expected to be paid within the next fiscal year.
I believe this note relates to the over $500k in free water the course was receiving.
Now do the zoo. Employment expenses are exorbitant due to pensions and benefits that the city pays that a typical course would not. Small price increase would probably balance it out but it is a city service just like the zoo so I doubt making money is at the top of their priority list.
Its hard to explain to a working class family struggling to pay their property taxes how they get value out of the city owning a golf course of any kind. Especially one that loses money.
Entertainment is not infrastructure.
Entertainment is not infrastructure.
Illigitimus non carborundum
I totally understand that opinion, but no city in the country thinks that way locally, state or federal. Taking that view, we would have no national parks, no state parks, etc.CorsicanaBear said:
Its hard to explain to a working class family struggling to pay their property taxes how they get value out of the city owning a golf course of any kind. Especially one that loses money.
Entertainment is not infrastructure.
What a narrow view you have, city owned golf courses, parks, zoos, other attractions make that city a more attractive place to call home. If you take those things away then you lose out on as many residents(new tax revenue) and business'(new tax revenue) wanting to come to town.CorsicanaBear said:
Its hard to explain to a working class family struggling to pay their property taxes how they get value out of the city owning a golf course of any kind. Especially one that loses money.
Entertainment is not infrastructure.
Nothing personal, but I thank God you are in the minority with your position. Our communities are much better off with a higher quality of life.CorsicanaBear said:I don't defend the zoo. And you are correct. Citizens concerned about the lack of a zoo in any town should stand up and pay for one voluntarily instead of coercing others to pay for it.Quote:
defend the zoo? Surely if there was interest it could be privately funded?
I also don't defend public money for Baylor to build stadiums. Or for the Cowboys to do the same. Or for public high schools to build and maintain giant athletic stadiums at taxpayer expense. Art museums and concert halls also come to mind. Public spending for these sorts of things are all anathema as far as I am concerned.
Any idea on what the "transfers in" might be? It makes it look like that put them $455K in the black by EOY? Not a CPA so I'm probably reading it all wrong.BearCPA said:Weston Rogers said:
Fwiw I've been told by GMs and supers of other central Texas courses that Cottonwood is the rare bird of a muni that turns a profit for the city. Also to those asking if Bear Ridge will be in better shape long term under city ownership the answer is 100% yes and that's all because of water costs for being a muni vs privately owned.
Go to Page 263 of the PDF.
https://www.waco-texas.com/pdf/budget/3.2.21.COW20a.issued2.22.2021SIGNED.pdf
Per the latest Comprehensive Annual Financial Report for the fiscal year ended 9/30/2020:
Cottonwood Creek Golf Course had an operating loss of $313,750 for FYE 2020 and $331,448 for 2019.
Transfer In from the General Fund of $678,304 for FYE 2020 and $428,304 for 2019.
Total annual expenses was $1,903,771 for FYE 2020 and $2,094,332 for 2019.
Revenue (Charges for Services) was $1,590,021 for FYE 2020 and $1,762,884 for 2019. 2019 was the highest revenue in the previous 10 years and it still lost over $300k. Cottonwood is a money pit.
From page 67:
Advances to/from other funds
Receivable Fund Payable Fund Amount Water Nonmajor business-type $ 525,336
Nonmajor governmental Nonmajor business-type 168,368
$ 693,704
All advances resulted from loans to Cottonwood Creek Golf Course Fund made for operating and capital improvements since the City took over management responsibilities. Amounts are not expected to be paid within the next fiscal year.
I believe this note relates to the over $500k in free water the course was receiving.
As the old variously attributed saying goes:
Panem et circenses is as bad a policy now as it was when Juvenal railed against it in the second century.
For the record, I am in favor of all the golf courses, stadia, zoos and concert halls the people who use them are willing to pay for.
Or vote themselves golf courses, stadia, zoos, concert halls etc.Quote:
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.
Panem et circenses is as bad a policy now as it was when Juvenal railed against it in the second century.
For the record, I am in favor of all the golf courses, stadia, zoos and concert halls the people who use them are willing to pay for.
Illigitimus non carborundum
Weston, like you I am no CPA and much of CPA Bear's post was tough for the "Average Bear" to decipher. The entire part about the water expense/loan seemed to be written in Chinese. Without some kind of accounting hocus pocus I just cant get a grip on the $2M annual expenses for C'Wood. As an outsider, I can merely say IMO: Waco taxpayers deserve an explanation
Will money for this come from the Hotel/Motel tax? Our occupancy rate is purportedly very high, with several more coming on line.
Fred Barber
BearCPA thanks for looking up the actual numbers regarding the city finances for Cottonwood. I have just always heard it was a money pit for the city. Those numbers seem to show that to be true.
I guess the question is does the city really need a second money pit because it can allegedly maintain the course better than a private owner and possibly have lower greens fees? Despite the fact that Bear Ridge seems to currently be in better shape (at least the greens) than Cottonwood. I think I know how most local tax payers will feel. Current greens fees for CW are $43 weekday w cart and $51 weekend. BR is $48.71 weekday w cart and $59.54 weekend.
I too hope it is ClubCorp that is buying it. That would truly benefit central Texas.
I guess the question is does the city really need a second money pit because it can allegedly maintain the course better than a private owner and possibly have lower greens fees? Despite the fact that Bear Ridge seems to currently be in better shape (at least the greens) than Cottonwood. I think I know how most local tax payers will feel. Current greens fees for CW are $43 weekday w cart and $51 weekend. BR is $48.71 weekday w cart and $59.54 weekend.
I too hope it is ClubCorp that is buying it. That would truly benefit central Texas.
Isn't a big chunk of the Hotel/Motel tax already dedicated to the new "BASE" facility on the HOT Fairgrounds?Old300Bear said:
Will money for this come from the Hotel/Motel tax? Our occupancy rate is purportedly very high, with several more coming on line.
Another government owned ego facility destined to have operating losses it's entire life and then need to be renovated with another giant bond package labeled as an "investment" in McLennan County's future.Quote:
the new "BASE" facility on the HOT Fairgrounds?
Illigitimus non carborundum
I am a commercial banker, now a vertical specialist in another industry, but I had a lot of golf business in my portfolio.
The trends outlined from Covid showed a massive spike in rounds played data across the industry. There have been several awesome posts in this thread. Goose, thanks for sharing your insider perspective.
My clients are two guys that spent time with major organizations in course management and targeted acquisition for many years. At one point in their journey of analyzing courses, they figured out they could do this themselves and have built quite the little private holdings of almost 20 courses.
One of the things as outlined above was mismanagement. If a course had "good bones" and bad management, that was a primary target for investment if the numbers were right. They offer a hybrid model of memberships and walk up play. The key to the model is like a gym membership, there are many benefits, but you need to play 8 rounds a month before they lose money on that client.
It will be interesting to see if the upward trajectory continues for the new owner, we played there a couple of months ago and I remembered why I liked it so much when I lived in town.
This can be a great track if they handle it properly. If it is in fact the City, the benefits could be felt at BR and CW by reducing the load at CW and improving pace of play. I would hope it is a private investor with ample experience. I think the winning model there would be a semi-private personally.
Club Corp would be a great fit, with their investments in the Baylor Club and in Wildflower. Makes selling their ONE membership easier.
I do agree with the statement that the tee shot on #10 needs to be reworked, it's awful.
The trends outlined from Covid showed a massive spike in rounds played data across the industry. There have been several awesome posts in this thread. Goose, thanks for sharing your insider perspective.
My clients are two guys that spent time with major organizations in course management and targeted acquisition for many years. At one point in their journey of analyzing courses, they figured out they could do this themselves and have built quite the little private holdings of almost 20 courses.
One of the things as outlined above was mismanagement. If a course had "good bones" and bad management, that was a primary target for investment if the numbers were right. They offer a hybrid model of memberships and walk up play. The key to the model is like a gym membership, there are many benefits, but you need to play 8 rounds a month before they lose money on that client.
It will be interesting to see if the upward trajectory continues for the new owner, we played there a couple of months ago and I remembered why I liked it so much when I lived in town.
This can be a great track if they handle it properly. If it is in fact the City, the benefits could be felt at BR and CW by reducing the load at CW and improving pace of play. I would hope it is a private investor with ample experience. I think the winning model there would be a semi-private personally.
Club Corp would be a great fit, with their investments in the Baylor Club and in Wildflower. Makes selling their ONE membership easier.
I do agree with the statement that the tee shot on #10 needs to be reworked, it's awful.
CorsicanaBear said:Another government owned ego facility destined to have operating losses it's entire life and then need to be renovated with another giant bond package labeled as an "investment" in McLennan County's future.Quote:
the new "BASE" facility on the HOT Fairgrounds?
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Ideal CorsicanaBear City:
Don't worry, those blimps are privately owned and NOT publicly funded transportation options...
Don't worry, those blimps are privately owned and NOT publicly funded transportation options...
91 Bear said:
BearCPA thanks for looking up the actual numbers regarding the city finances for Cottonwood. I have just always heard it was a money pit for the city. Those numbers seem to show that to be true.
I guess the question is does the city really need a second money pit because it can allegedly maintain the course better than a private owner and possibly have lower greens fees? Despite the fact that Bear Ridge seems to currently be in better shape (at least the greens) than Cottonwood. I think I know how most local tax payers will feel. Current greens fees for CW are $43 weekday w cart and $51 weekend. BR is $48.71 weekday w cart and $59.54 weekend.
I too hope it is ClubCorp that is buying it. That would truly benefit central Texas.
The facility IMO doesn't offer amenities required for a country club. Need pool/tennis/real restaurant/child care to entice families to join. Therefore it wouldn't make a ton of sense for Club Corp to buy unless they see somewhere on the property to add those amenities.
DavidCorreaBU said:
I am a commercial banker, now a vertical specialist in another industry, but I had a lot of golf business in my portfolio.
The trends outlined from Covid showed a massive spike in rounds played data across the industry. There have been several awesome posts in this thread. Goose, thanks for sharing your insider perspective.
My clients are two guys that spent time with major organizations in course management and targeted acquisition for many years. At one point in their journey of analyzing courses, they figured out they could do this themselves and have built quite the little private holdings of almost 20 courses.
One of the things as outlined above was mismanagement. If a course had "good bones" and bad management, that was a primary target for investment if the numbers were right. They offer a hybrid model of memberships and walk up play. The key to the model is like a gym membership, there are many benefits, but you need to play 8 rounds a month before they lose money on that client.
It will be interesting to see if the upward trajectory continues for the new owner, we played there a couple of months ago and I remembered why I liked it so much when I lived in town.
This can be a great track if they handle it properly. If it is in fact the City, the benefits could be felt at BR and CW by reducing the load at CW and improving pace of play. I would hope it is a private investor with ample experience. I think the winning model there would be a semi-private personally.
Club Corp would be a great fit, with their investments in the Baylor Club and in Wildflower. Makes selling their ONE membership easier.
I do agree with the statement that the tee shot on #10 needs to be reworked, it's awful.
Don't get the hate on #10 tee shot. Take it across the corner or just play as designed. You have 13 other holes to grip it and rip it
The Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our God and of His Christ. ~Revelation 11:15. Stand. Repent. Build.
My tee line with a driver would go over houses.GIFbear said:DavidCorreaBU said:
I am a commercial banker, now a vertical specialist in another industry, but I had a lot of golf business in my portfolio.
The trends outlined from Covid showed a massive spike in rounds played data across the industry. There have been several awesome posts in this thread. Goose, thanks for sharing your insider perspective.
My clients are two guys that spent time with major organizations in course management and targeted acquisition for many years. At one point in their journey of analyzing courses, they figured out they could do this themselves and have built quite the little private holdings of almost 20 courses.
One of the things as outlined above was mismanagement. If a course had "good bones" and bad management, that was a primary target for investment if the numbers were right. They offer a hybrid model of memberships and walk up play. The key to the model is like a gym membership, there are many benefits, but you need to play 8 rounds a month before they lose money on that client.
It will be interesting to see if the upward trajectory continues for the new owner, we played there a couple of months ago and I remembered why I liked it so much when I lived in town.
This can be a great track if they handle it properly. If it is in fact the City, the benefits could be felt at BR and CW by reducing the load at CW and improving pace of play. I would hope it is a private investor with ample experience. I think the winning model there would be a semi-private personally.
Club Corp would be a great fit, with their investments in the Baylor Club and in Wildflower. Makes selling their ONE membership easier.
I do agree with the statement that the tee shot on #10 needs to be reworked, it's awful.
Don't get the hate on #10 tee shot. Take it across the corner or just play as designed. You have 13 other holes to grip it and rip it
You're not wrong, but as a lefty with that plays a healthy fade it makes it tougher with that layout.GIFbear said:DavidCorreaBU said:
I am a commercial banker, now a vertical specialist in another industry, but I had a lot of golf business in my portfolio.
The trends outlined from Covid showed a massive spike in rounds played data across the industry. There have been several awesome posts in this thread. Goose, thanks for sharing your insider perspective.
My clients are two guys that spent time with major organizations in course management and targeted acquisition for many years. At one point in their journey of analyzing courses, they figured out they could do this themselves and have built quite the little private holdings of almost 20 courses.
One of the things as outlined above was mismanagement. If a course had "good bones" and bad management, that was a primary target for investment if the numbers were right. They offer a hybrid model of memberships and walk up play. The key to the model is like a gym membership, there are many benefits, but you need to play 8 rounds a month before they lose money on that client.
It will be interesting to see if the upward trajectory continues for the new owner, we played there a couple of months ago and I remembered why I liked it so much when I lived in town.
This can be a great track if they handle it properly. If it is in fact the City, the benefits could be felt at BR and CW by reducing the load at CW and improving pace of play. I would hope it is a private investor with ample experience. I think the winning model there would be a semi-private personally.
Club Corp would be a great fit, with their investments in the Baylor Club and in Wildflower. Makes selling their ONE membership easier.
I do agree with the statement that the tee shot on #10 needs to be reworked, it's awful.
Don't get the hate on #10 tee shot. Take it across the corner or just play as designed. You have 13 other holes to grip it and rip it
To your point, it's a great track and it would never keep me away.
David C, great post. Lots of good info. Your clients are tackling a part of the business I found most difficult semi-private. I found it so difficult to keep members happy when the need for daily fee revenue and outside tournaments restricted member play. No matter how clearly "member rights" are spelled out in advance their sense of entitlement was sometimes very difficult to placate. It can be done for sure but I found it much more difficult than the customary private club or daily fee.
Another great point you made regarding damage done by mismanagement. Not unlike any other business well trained managers with golf business experience is a must. So many more facets to a successful golf operation than just "taking their money and sending them out".
Another great point you made regarding damage done by mismanagement. Not unlike any other business well trained managers with golf business experience is a must. So many more facets to a successful golf operation than just "taking their money and sending them out".
Nm
considering it is booked for the foreseeable future, you would be wrong.CorsicanaBear said:Another government owned ego facility destined to have operating losses it's entire life and then need to be renovated with another giant bond package labeled as an "investment" in McLennan County's future.Quote:
the new "BASE" facility on the HOT Fairgrounds?
I don't understand why you are upset with the facility. Your tax dollars aren't paying anything towards it, unless you rent a car or stay at a hotel in McLennan county.
Let's forget about the 14.5MM bond for the Zoo, though.
I appreciate the note.Goose70 said:
David C, great post. Lots of good info. Your clients are tackling a part of the business I found most difficult semi-private. I found it so difficult to keep members happy when the need for daily fee revenue and outside tournaments restricted member play. No matter how clearly "member rights" are spelled out in advance their sense of entitlement was sometimes very difficult to placate. It can be done for sure but I found it much more difficult than the customary private club or daily fee.
Another great point you made regarding damage done by mismanagement. Not unlike any other business well trained managers with golf business experience is a must. So many more facets to a successful golf operation than just "taking their money and sending them out".
The trick to their model that makes the semi-private tick, is they usually target a market where they can get more than one course. That way they can tier the membership and offer them an alternative place to play in the event of a major revenue opportunity. Plus, their staff is trained to up sale memberships when a non-member plays. It really is like the gym model, once you have that card on file for the billing of the small monthly fee, the retention is very high.
As far as their member's rights, it's really just holding back the majority of the top tee times. I would really view their model as more local benefit rather than a true semi private. It also offers them free range balls and they even throw an assistant pro on the range for tips and coaching as part of the deal. Members also get a "free" hot dog and a draft beer when they play. They also have courses in vacation markets so that adds appeal to the business client.
You hit the nail on the head about management. That is what makes or breaks a the experience at a course, and it determines what most are willing to pay. My dad works for Troon Golf, so I have always been fascinated by the golf business. Banking this client just gave me a different viewpoint on all of it.
We were Club Corp members for a couple of years in DFW and moved to another private club here in Dallas about two and a half years ago based on how impressed I was with the club's management and attention to detail.
Isn't the old saying the third owner of a course is the one that will profit?
Ahhhh....you touched on the way to make semi private doable - an alternative sister course. It gets a little complicated if there is a marked difference in the typical rack rate to play each course. But, if the courses are similar in price, condition and overall attractiveness, that equals a home run!!! Regardless of number of profitable outside outings but have alternative course for member play. Have enjoyed the back and forth. Thanks. My wife and I are in process of making a move and while the new house is getting some touch up we are hemmed up in a hotel so I am enjoying the banter while I have plenty of time on my hands. We have nade our escape from the crime capital of the South, Memphis.
Goose70 said:
Ahhhh....you touched on the way to make semi private doable - an alternative sister course. It gets a little complicated if there is a marked difference in the typical rack rate to play each course. But, if the courses are similar in price, condition and overall attractiveness, that equals a home run!!! Regardless of number of profitable outside outings but have alternative course for member play. Have enjoyed the back and forth. Thanks. My wife and I are in process of making a move and while the new house is getting some touch up we are hemmed up in a hotel so I am enjoying the banter while I have plenty of time on my hands. We have nade our escape from the crime capital of the South, Memphis.
Memphis has edged out the Detroit of the South . . . New Orleans?
Booked and making an operating profit are not the same. It would not have had to have a giant bond to build, paid with out of towners tax money (which is also not right) if it were a good investment. Good investments make enough money to cover debt service on cap ex and op ex and still return money to the owners.Quote:
considering it is booked for the foreseeable future, you would be wrong.
Illigitimus non carborundum
I guess we could look up FBI or DOJ crime stats for each city to determine "the winner" but I know for sure that there are areas in Memphis I wouldnt go unless I was in an Armored Car. Do they need armored car AND armed escort in NOLA?
Bad guys in NOLA rent out armored cars.Goose70 said:
I guess we could look up FBI or DOJ crime stats for each city to determine "the winner" but I know for sure that there are areas in Memphis I wouldnt go unless I was in an Armored Car. Do they need armored car AND armed escort in NOLA?
Goose70 said:
I guess we could look up FBI or DOJ crime stats for each city to determine "the winner" but I know for sure that there are areas in Memphis I wouldnt go unless I was in an Armored Car. Do they need armored car AND armed escort in NOLA?
certain parts, yes
In the 60's and early 70's..it was so bad that it was...good..You "have to have been there" for that to really soak in. :-)Stranger said:Goose70 said:
I guess we could look up FBI or DOJ crime stats for each city to determine "the winner" but I know for sure that there are areas in Memphis I wouldnt go unless I was in an Armored Car. Do they need armored car AND armed escort in NOLA?
certain parts, yes
Do you all think a membership model like Karsten Creek would work? I realize Bear Ridge has a long way to go to come close to Karsten, but when Bear Ridge was first built, I thought that is the way they were trying to go.
They have something like 100 local memberships (within 40 mile), 100 state memberships (in OK outside of 40 miles) and 100 national memberships. They also have overnight accommodations, so the incentive for out of town members to come spend the night and play Karsten is there. There would have to be some big upgrades for it to work, but seems like Bear Ridge has the bones to get creative.
They have something like 100 local memberships (within 40 mile), 100 state memberships (in OK outside of 40 miles) and 100 national memberships. They also have overnight accommodations, so the incentive for out of town members to come spend the night and play Karsten is there. There would have to be some big upgrades for it to work, but seems like Bear Ridge has the bones to get creative.