Waco, once again I ask, how did Jesus rise from the dead and how is he physically alive today within the laws of nature? How do you explain that outside of the supernatural.

RMF "hat is where we disagree. The how and the why all fit together. God is not just a philosophical exercise in morals. The spark, the initiator or the design all matter. Those answers are part of the divine question."

That is my point - there is no verifiably scientific way to prove your orthodox formulation of God because you rely on science. The "spark, the initiator or the design all matter" is not a term that science understands; yet you are using it as science to prove a theological point. That is not logical.

For me, I am not using science for my philosophical or theological points. My only scientifical point is that I exist. My existence is easily provable. My existential being as a human means I am a personal of worth. I must be of worth; because, I know I exist( unlike my dog who is simply "now") my existence but I know me not only "now" but yesterday and tomorrow. Finally, it is in God that I live, move and have my being. ( Act 17:28)and that within that God I love, do justice for the poor, serve others and offer grace.

Mothra said:

---

Waco, once again I ask, how did Jesus rise from the dead and how is he physically alive today within the laws of nature? How do you explain that outside of the supernatural.

---

Jesus is alive spiritually and is present in a spiritual body like Paul said in I Corinthians 15. Whatever body that the disciples saw was a spiritual body. The scriptures are clear as to its spiritual body.

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, once again I ask, how did Jesus rise from the dead and how is he physically alive today within the laws of nature? How do you explain that outside of the supernatural.

---

Jesus is alive spiritually and is present in a spiritual body like Paul said in I Corinthians 15. Whatever body that the disciples saw was a spiritual body. The scriptures are clear as to its spiritual body.

---

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question. How is Jesus alive spiritually within the laws of nature and physics? What scientific evidence do you have that there is even such a thing as a spirit?

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, once again I ask, how did Jesus rise from the dead and how is he physically alive today within the laws of nature? How do you explain that outside of the supernatural.

---

Jesus is alive spiritually and is present in a spiritual body like Paul said in I Corinthians 15. Whatever body that the disciples saw was a spiritual body. The scriptures are clear as to its spiritual body.

---

The scriptures? Here is what the scriptures say:

"While they were describing these events, Jesus Himself stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." But they were startled and frightened, thinking they had seen a spirit.


"Why are you troubled," Jesus asked, "and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and seefor a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet.

While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate it in front of them." - Luke 24:36-43


So, how do you reconcile the scriptures above with what you just said? Jesus was TOUCHED and he ATE FOOD after his resurrection. Doesn't that clearly indicate there was a physical component to his body? I've asked you this before, several times. You either ignore it, or you resort to your annoying habit of merely reposting an exact copy of your previous comment without providing an answer. Give us an actual answer this go around, okay?

Question for Shooter

Ive heard you mention butt sex while you were correcting W47. Your use of the term "butt sex" refers to homo sex, right?

1. Is it ok to go backdoor with a female? Asking for a friend

2. Since lesbians dont go for butt sex much are you condoning the F/F action while condemning the M/M?

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF "hat is where we disagree. The how and the why all fit together. God is not just a philosophical exercise in morals. The spark, the initiator or the design all matter. Those answers are part of the divine question."

That is my point - there is no verifiably scientific way to prove your orthodox formulation of God because you rely on science. The "spark, the initiator or the design all matter" is not a term that science understands; yet you are using it as science to prove a theological point. That is not logical.

For me, I am not using science for my philosophical or theological points. My only scientifical point is that I exist. My existence is easily provable. My existential being as a human means I am a personal of worth. I must be of worth; because, I know I exist( unlike my dog who is simply "now") my existence but I know me not only "now" but yesterday and tomorrow. Finally, it is in God that I live, move and have my being. ( Act 17:28)and that within that God I love, do justice for the poor, serve others and offer grace.

---

Is there a verifiable, scientific way to prove your wife's love for you? Evidence may not be proof if there is another possibility.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Question for Shooter

Ive heard you mention butt sex while you were correcting W47. Your use of the term "butt sex" refers to homo sex, right?

1. Is it ok to go backdoor with a female? Asking for a friend

2. Since lesbians dont go for butt sex much are you condoning the F/F action while condemning the M/M?

---

don't be so sure. Recently , at work, a coworker walked in and asked "Who has a Johnson?" referring to the last name. The lesbian I work with said "I have one. But, it's not like y'all's. I can take it off and throw it in the dishwasher." She then volunteered to another coworker all the different ways it can be used. I believe Shooter is not limiting the term "butt sex" to just M/M.

Don't I remember you posting something about your time in Bangkok?

Yes. I lived and worked an hour away from BKK for two years. I would go to the city once or twice a month. Great city.

I was really interested to know if it was all butt sex or just the homo kind that Shooter talks about. Asking for a friend of course.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Yes. I lived and worked an hour away from BKK for two years. I would go to the city once or twice a month. Great city.

I was really interested to know if it was all butt sex or just the homo kind that Shooter talks about. Asking for a friend of course.

---

of course.

ps... did you get the package?

I guess you want me to ask you what package.

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, once again I ask, how did Jesus rise from the dead and how is he physically alive today within the laws of nature? How do you explain that outside of the supernatural.

---

Jesus is alive spiritually and is present in a spiritual body like Paul said in I Corinthians 15. Whatever body that the disciples saw was a spiritual body. The scriptures are clear as to its spiritual body.

---

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question. How is Jesus alive spiritually within the laws of nature and physics? What scientific evidence do you have that there is even such a thing as a spirit?

---

Science does not need the spiritual.
I Corinthians 2 But people who are unspiritual don't accept the things from God's Spirit. They are foolishness to them and can't be understood, because they can only be comprehended in a spiritual way."
Let science be science and the spiritual (not supernatural) be spiritual.
In humans the physical and the spiritual occupy my mind and body. and soul and heart.
Luke 10:27 He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind and your neighbor as yourself."

You keep saying "physically alive." I never said it. Unless Of course is one of my famous typos

Waco1947 said:

---

You keep saying "physically alive." I never said it. Unless Of course is one of my famous typos

---

Then I guess I misunderstood you. From what I recall, you said Jesus was physically alive at this moment. I will see if I can find the post from the previous thread.

So am I correct in my last post about your beliefs?

No you are not correct. You are misrepresenting my understanding of spiritual. Paul said it nicely. See previous posts

1 I Corinthians 2

Waco, here is our exchange from the other thread. I think this exchange is pretty clear you answered yes to the question of whether you believe that Jesus is a physical person or entity alive at this moment.

Me:

"Can you please provide a "yes" or "no" response to these 2 questions?


1. Do you mean the Jesus of the bible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?

2.In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?

Thanks."

You:

"Yes and yes."

Waco1947 said:

---

No you are not correct. You are misrepresenting my understanding of spiritual. Paul said it nicely. See previous posts

---

With all due respect, the verses you quoted don't answer my questions either.

Again, I am simply trying to figure out what you believe. As evidenced by my last post quoting you, you are often times inconsistent and very vague in what you believe - perhaps purposely so.

So again I ask, by spirit, do you mean literally an entity or being exists inside our hearts and minds? Or is it more a thought or feeling?

If it's the former, I also once again ask how you reconcile the idea of a spirit/entity/being with the laws of nature and physics? Do you have any scientific evidence that "spirits" actually exist?

"Modern man does not expel God in order to assume responsibility for the world.
But rather in order not to have to assume responsibility. " -Don Colacho

"The Christian has nothing to lose in this catastrophe called life" -Don Colacho

"Sex and violence do not replace transcendence after it has been banished.
Not even the devil remains for the man who loses God." -Don Colacho

"Modern man, having lost God, does not love, but takes refuge in love; does not hope, but takes refuge in hope; does not believe, but takes refuge in a dogma." -Don Colacho

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

No you are not correct. You are misrepresenting my understanding of spiritual. Paul said it nicely. See previous posts

---

Paul was very clear that the Resurrection of Christ was physical, not merely a "spiritual resurrection."

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-paul-deny-the-physicality-of-the-resurrection

---

Yup. But even then, without a belief in the supernatural, it would be impossible to believe in even a "spiritual resurrection," unless he merely means a heart and mind change, which I had suspected (but he assured me was incorrect).

Waco1947 said:

---

1 I Corinthians 2

---

The whole chapter?

I think you are wiggling quite a bit there, Waco.

Mothra said:

---

Waco, here is our exchange from the other thread. I think this exchange is pretty clear you answered yes to the question of whether you believe that Jesus is a physical person or entity alive at this moment.

Me:

"Can you please provide a "yes" or "no" response to these 2 questions?


1. Do you mean the Jesus of the bible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?

2.In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?

Thanks."

You:

"Yes and yes."

---

My apologies. Thank you for tracking it down I misunderstood your questions.
1. Do you mean the Jesus of thbible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?
A. Yes, Jesus is alive at this moment spiritually
2. In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?
B. I thought you were talking about humans in general not Jesus in particular. I totally misread "entity."
An entity to me in the moment I read it was Jesus is an entity' as in any particular form such as spirit.
Again my apologies. It was a misreading of your question.
Jesus is spirit and as spirit is alive today.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, once again I ask, how did Jesus rise from the dead and how is he physically alive today within the laws of nature? How do you explain that outside of the supernatural.

---

Jesus is alive spiritually and is present in a spiritual body like Paul said in I Corinthians 15. Whatever body that the disciples saw was a spiritual body. The scriptures are clear as to its spiritual body.

---

The scriptures? Here is what the scriptures say:

"While they were describing these events, Jesus Himself stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." But they were startled and frightened, thinking they had seen a spirit.

"Why are you troubled," Jesus asked, "and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet.

While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate it in front of them." - Luke 24:36-43


So, how do you reconcile the scriptures above with what you just said? Jesus was TOUCHED and he ATE FOOD after his resurrection. Doesn't that clearly indicate there was a physical component to his body? I've asked you this before, several times. You either ignore it, or you resort to your annoying habit of merely reposting an exact copy of your previous comment without providing an answer. Give us an actual answer this go around, okay?

---

Looks like Waco47 has chosen to ignore this yet again.

Waco47, your theology fails if you can not account for this, it's as simple as that.

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, once again I ask, how did Jesus rise from the dead and how is he physically alive today within the laws of nature? How do you explain that outside of the supernatural.

---

Jesus is alive spiritually and is present in a spiritual body like Paul said in I Corinthians 15. Whatever body that the disciples saw was a spiritual body. The scriptures are clear as to its spiritual body.

---

How could they see Jesus' body, unless his body was emanating or reflecting light rays? That's how humans see - it's biology and physics, i.e. science. Doesn't that mean there is a physical component to his body? If not, then isn't that violating the laws of physics?

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF "hat is where we disagree. The how and the why all fit together. God is not just a philosophical exercise in morals. The spark, the initiator or the design all matter. Those answers are part of the divine question."

That is my point - there is no verifiably scientific way to prove your orthodox formulation of God because you rely on science. The "spark, the initiator or the design all matter" is not a term that science understands; yet you are using it as science to prove a theological point. That is not logical.

For me, I am not using science for my philosophical or theological points. My only scientifical point is that I exist. My existence is easily provable. My existential being as a human means I am a personal of worth. I must be of worth; because, I know I exist( unlike my dog who is simply "now") my existence but I know me not only "now" but yesterday and tomorrow. Finally, it is in God that I live, move and have my being. ( Act 17:28)and that within that God I love, do justice for the poor, serve others and offer grace.

---

Ok, that is very Aquinas. Thomist, believe one of the proofs of God is existence.


I like what John Paul II said, when he said [of evolution] that "truth cannot contradict truth." The Vatican Observatory Head Scientist believes, "If you think you already know everything about the world, you are not a good scientist, and if you think you know all there is to know about God, then your religious faith is at fault."

I agree with him. We study science because of God and truth is revealed. But, I am Catholic. Not sure that is a view the Protestants would agree with!

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, here is our exchange from the other thread. I think this exchange is pretty clear you answered yes to the question of whether you believe that Jesus is a physical person or entity alive at this moment.

Me:

"Can you please provide a "yes" or "no" response to these 2 questions?


1. Do you mean the Jesus of the bible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?

2.In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?

Thanks."

You:

"Yes and yes."

---

My apologies. Thank you for tracking it down I misunderstood your questions.
1. Do you mean the Jesus of thbible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?
A. Yes, Jesus is alive at this moment spiritually
2. In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?
B. I thought you were talking about humans in general not Jesus in particular. I totally misread "entity."
An entity to me in the moment I read it was Jesus is an entity' as in any particular form such as spirit.
Again my apologies. It was a misreading of your question.
Jesus is spirit and as spirit is alive today.

---

Thanks for the clarification. So you believe a "spirit" exists. By spirit, do you mean an actual thinking and feeling being that simply does not have a tangible physical form? If so, how do you reconcile that belief with the laws of nature? Do you have any scientific evidence a spirit exists?

Wouldn't the existence of a "spirit" be supernatural in nature?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, once again I ask, how did Jesus rise from the dead and how is he physically alive today within the laws of nature? How do you explain that outside of the supernatural.

---

Jesus is alive spiritually and is present in a spiritual body like Paul said in I Corinthians 15. Whatever body that the disciples saw was a spiritual body. The scriptures are clear as to its spiritual body.

---

The scriptures? Here is what the scriptures say:

"While they were describing these events, Jesus Himself stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." But they were startled and frightened, thinking they had seen a spirit.

"Why are you troubled," Jesus asked, "and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet.

While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate it in front of them." - Luke 24:36-43


So, how do you reconcile the scriptures above with what you just said? Jesus was TOUCHED and he ATE FOOD after his resurrection. Doesn't that clearly indicate there was a physical component to his body? I've asked you this before, several times. You either ignore it, or you resort to your annoying habit of merely reposting an exact copy of your previous comment without providing an answer. Give us an actual answer this go around, okay?

---

Looks like Waco47 has chosen to ignore this yet again.

Waco47, your theology fails if you can not account for this, it's as simple as that.

---

Yes, I will have responses but not on your timetable.

So you don't know what you mean by 'spirit'.

Hmmm.

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, once again I ask, how did Jesus rise from the dead and how is he physically alive today within the laws of nature? How do you explain that outside of the supernatural.

---

Jesus is alive spiritually and is present in a spiritual body like Paul said in I Corinthians 15. Whatever body that the disciples saw was a spiritual body. The scriptures are clear as to its spiritual body.

---

The scriptures? Here is what the scriptures say:

"While they were describing these events, Jesus Himself stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." But they were startled and frightened, thinking they had seen a spirit.

"Why are you troubled," Jesus asked, "and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet.

While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate it in front of them." - Luke 24:36-43


So, how do you reconcile the scriptures above with what you just said? Jesus was TOUCHED and he ATE FOOD after his resurrection. Doesn't that clearly indicate there was a physical component to his body? I've asked you this before, several times. You either ignore it, or you resort to your annoying habit of merely reposting an exact copy of your previous comment without providing an answer. Give us an actual answer this go around, okay?

---

Looks like Waco47 has chosen to ignore this yet again.

Waco47, your theology fails if you can not account for this, it's as simple as that.

---

Yes, I will have responses but not on your timetable.

---

Ok, I'll be waiting, and don't forget about my other question - how did the disciples see Jesus as a non-physical spirit since our eyeballs can only detect physical things.

John 20: 19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

I try to think deeply about these texts. What is John saying in the text.
So with that idea in mind note "The doors were locked...Jesus came and stood among them." John says clearly Jesus in spiritual and the disciples experience him that way.

"After this Jesus showed them his hands and side."

Jesus is the same guy to the disciples as spiritual and physical" which says to me Jesus is the same guy to me as he is to the disciples. Jesus is not bound by history or walls.

Then:
29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe."

So I have not seen (the physical wounds) yet I believe.
The text needs to be studied not in a simply literal way but a deeply searching spiritual way to understand its message for us.

I do not believe the text is to used out of context and apart from its profound meaning for us.
You can use it that way but I am not sure it helps your faith journey.

Waco1947 said:

---

John 20: 19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

I try to think deeply about these texts. What is John saying in the text.
So with that idea in mind note "The doors were locked...Jesus came and stood among them." John says clearly Jesus in spiritual and the disciples experience him that way.

"After this Jesus showed them his hands and side."

Jesus is the same guy to the disciples as spiritual and physical" which says to me Jesus is the same guy to me as he is to the disciples. Jesus is not bound by history or walls.

Then:
29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe."

So I have not seen (the physical wounds) yet I believe.
The text needs to be studied not in a simply literal way but a deeply searching spiritual way to understand its message for us.

I do not believe the text is to used out of context and apart from its profound meaning for us.
You can use it that way but I am not sure it helps your faith journey.

---

In these texts, John is providing an account of what transpired. He has given a pretty detailed account based on what he actually witnessed first-hand, as he was in that room when Jesus suddenly appeared.

The only logical explanation is that Jesus, as God, has the ability to move between walls. Whether he appeared in spirit or in a tangible physical form, the text is crystal clear that he was visible to the disciples, as they recognized him. It is also clear that they were able to touch his wounds.

I agree with you that SOME texts need to be studied in a deeply spiritual way for their meaning. This text is not one of them. It is instead a first hand account of what John witnessed with his own eyes. And that is what John intended - to convey his first-hand account of what he witnessed so that others would read and believe.

Regardless of whether you believe Christ appeared in bodily form or spiritually, the issue with your belief system is that neither account can be explained under the laws of nature and physics. Men cannot move through walls, just as they cannot exist in a "spirit" form under the laws of nature and physics. I am not sure why it's so difficult for you to acknowledge this, if of course this is what you believe.

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco, here is our exchange from the other thread. I think this exchange is pretty clear you answered yes to the question of whether you believe that Jesus is a physical person or entity alive at this moment.

Me:

"Can you please provide a "yes" or "no" response to these 2 questions?


1. Do you mean the Jesus of the bible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?

2.In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?

Thanks."

You:

"Yes and yes."

---

My apologies. Thank you for tracking it down I misunderstood your questions.
1. Do you mean the Jesus of thbible, a deity who took human form, is actually alive at this moment?
A. Yes, Jesus is alive at this moment spiritually
2. In other words, an actual physical person or entity is alive?
B. I thought you were talking about humans in general not Jesus in particular. I totally misread "entity."
An entity to me in the moment I read it was Jesus is an entity' as in any particular form such as spirit.
Again my apologies. It was a misreading of your question.
Jesus is spirit and as spirit is alive today.

---

Thanks for the clarification. So you believe a "spirit" exists. By spirit, do you mean an actual thinking and feeling being that simply does not have a tangible physical form? If so, how do you reconcile that belief with the laws of nature? Do you have any scientific evidence a spirit exists?

Wouldn't the existence of a "spirit" be supernatural in nature?

---

My understanding of his belief is that the supernatural realm does exist, i.e. the spirit, and that is the only realm in which God has power or influence. He doesn't believe God is "supernatural" in the sense that He doesn't have power to influence the physical universe. Of course, that would make the other beliefs in his theology contradictory or nonsensical (let alone egregiously non-biblical, which he remedies with egregiously bad exegesis and eisegesis).

Waco1947 said:

---

John 20: 19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

I try to think deeply about these texts. What is John saying in the text.
So with that idea in mind note "The doors were locked...Jesus came and stood among them." John says clearly Jesus in spiritual and the disciples experience him that way.

"After this Jesus showed them his hands and side."

Jesus is the same guy to the disciples as spiritual and physical" which says to me Jesus is the same guy to me as he is to the disciples. Jesus is not bound by history or walls.

Then:
29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe."

So I have not seen (the physical wounds) yet I believe.
The text needs to be studied not in a simply literal way but a deeply searching spiritual way to understand its message for us.

I do not believe the text is to used out of context and apart from its profound meaning for us.
You can use it that way but I am not sure it helps your faith journey.

---

I hope you don't think this is an answer to my comment, because it isn't. This isn't the scripture I asked you about.

And still waiting for your explanation how our physical eyeballs can see a non-physical spirit.