bearhouse said:

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TexasScientist said:

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bearhouse said:

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TexasScientist said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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quash said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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quash said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If everything we think, do, or say is the result of the movement of molecules in our brain, and the movement of molecules is determined only by the physical laws of the universe, then how do we have choice?

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Consciousness.

Any die-hard determinist will never accept the arguments for free will. At least most religionists do. I have no idea if the percentage of determinists is higher or lower among non-believers.

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Is consciousness governed by the physical laws of the universe?

If it is not, and consciousness can cause the movement of molecules in the brain, then it follows that the movement of molecules in this universe is not solely determined by the physical laws of the universe. Agree? Waco47, you agree?

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Physical laws apply.

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If physical laws determine consciousness, then you're back to not having choice.

So you believe we have no choice or free will?

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Physical laws allow for making choices from learned frame of reference.

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How do you make this "choice" from learned frame of reference? At what point are you controlling the movement of molecules in your brain, where the result is going to be according to your "will", rather than the determined result of physics?

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You have too simplistic of a view of the brain. Your identity and who you are is all part of your brain. Your brain is you. That's why people who have brain damage can lose identity, or personality, or the ability to process and analyze. That's why who you are today is different from who you were at six months old. As your brain develops, you evolve. That's why you don't know anything from infancy, or at conception, because your brain was not sufficiently developed. You didn't exist in any form before conception. Over time you/your brain evolved. When your brain ceases to function completely, you won't remember, or know anything, and you will not longer exist. The same state you were in before conception. Your brain is a processor. The will of someone with autism or some other brain impairment is clearly impacted by the lack of development of their brain. Will is a function of your brain, and your brain operates according to physical laws.

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I am assuming that when you say "your brain is you", you mean that "you" are the consciousness "your brain produces." If that is what you mean, this is not settled science. There is a healthy debate as to whether the brain produces consciousness or the brain acts as a receiver and receives consciousness from outside of itself. Ultimately, it may depend on what is the fundamental building block of the universe: matter or consciousness. This is not coming from a faith perspective. Just my 2 cents and way above my pay grade. However, my day job essentially is to work with people who have "damaged brains" according to the more traditional model and there are times where the materialistic explanation falls short. #spookyconsciousnessatadistance

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Your brain produces consciousness. That is conclusive. Damage the brain and you lose consciousness. There is no credible debate about receiving consciousness from somewhere outside the brain. Neuroscience tells us there is no physical law or process that will support such mysticism, nor is there any credible observation or evidence to support such mysticism. Matter is a small percentage of what makes up the universe.

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It is not conclusive nor is it mysticism. You are not fully informed in this area.

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What do you allege produces consciousness, and what is your evidence?

bearhouse said:

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TexasScientist said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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quash said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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quash said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If everything we think, do, or say is the result of the movement of molecules in our brain, and the movement of molecules is determined only by the physical laws of the universe, then how do we have choice?

---

Consciousness.

Any die-hard determinist will never accept the arguments for free will. At least most religionists do. I have no idea if the percentage of determinists is higher or lower among non-believers.

---

Is consciousness governed by the physical laws of the universe?

If it is not, and consciousness can cause the movement of molecules in the brain, then it follows that the movement of molecules in this universe is not solely determined by the physical laws of the universe. Agree? Waco47, you agree?

---

Physical laws apply.

---

If physical laws determine consciousness, then you're back to not having choice.

So you believe we have no choice or free will?

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Physical laws allow for making choices from learned frame of reference.

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How do you make this "choice" from learned frame of reference? At what point are you controlling the movement of molecules in your brain, where the result is going to be according to your "will", rather than the determined result of physics?

---

You have too simplistic of a view of the brain. Your identity and who you are is all part of your brain. Your brain is you. That's why people who have brain damage can lose identity, or personality, or the ability to process and analyze. That's why who you are today is different from who you were at six months old. As your brain develops, you evolve. That's why you don't know anything from infancy, or at conception, because your brain was not sufficiently developed. You didn't exist in any form before conception. Over time you/your brain evolved. When your brain ceases to function completely, you won't remember, or know anything, and you will not longer exist. The same state you were in before conception. Your brain is a processor. The will of someone with autism or some other brain impairment is clearly impacted by the lack of development of their brain. Will is a function of your brain, and your brain operates according to physical laws.

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You didn't even come close to answering the question. Read my question and try again.

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Actually, I did. Your brain is you, and controls all of your bodily functions. Your brain controls movement in accord with physical laws. What you're saying is your body is in a virtual world controlled by the whims some outside agent. Where does your soul reside, and where did it come from?

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Your brain does not control all bodily functions. Good gravy, your view is too simplistic.

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I think the guillotine ends all body functions, and simplistically ends the argument.

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TS: "Alan Guth and Stephen Hawking using quantum theory have demonstrated a spontaneously formed universe is plausible, without the need for a creator.".

Actually, what they have done is claim that if a series of assumptions are correct, none of them proven, then within the parameters of their limited description a universe creator outside those parameters is not defined as required ... but something else is.

---

See my previous post above to Tarp.

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Very efficient, using the same excuse twice.

A good example of GIGO as well.

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GIGO is a very good example of religious lore and mysticism. Thank you.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TS: "Alan Guth and Stephen Hawking using quantum theory have demonstrated a spontaneously formed universe is plausible, without the need for a creator.".

Actually, what they have done is claim that if a series of assumptions are correct, none of them proven, then within the parameters of their limited description a universe creator outside those parameters is not defined as required ... but something else is.

---

See my previous post above to Tarp.

---

Very efficient, using the same excuse twice.

A good example of GIGO as well.

---

GIGO is a very good example of religious lore and mysticism. Thank you.

---

Considering the sum effect of religion, from charities to free education to moral compass, a reasonable person would count Faith and Religion as good things.

TexasScientist said:

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JXL said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Coke Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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That's why he left out all loving as a characteristic of his god, because that characteristic is irreconcilable with the character revealed in the Bible and life. The fact is, the evidence of reality tells us there is no god, and the laws of physics explain that no god is necessary to account for anything. Faith is not evidence of anything other than man's capacity for self deception.

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Really?

This is a very tired atheistic trope. Quite frankly, this is the type of statement made by lazy, young atheists that have done no research into their beliefs other than Facebook memes and reddit forums.

I would have assumed that you would be past posting these worn clichs.

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It may be tired to you, but it is one for which you have no credible answer.

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This exact question has been posed by you and answered on this forum multiple times.

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You'd think you'd get it right.

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We're still waiting on you to show it was wrong.

Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Which gospel is historical?
"The most ubiquitous Christian book was the Four Gospels, either preserving the distinct sequence of each text or comprising selected passages re-ordered in line with the readings employed in the Church year to form a lectionary. The popularity of the Gospels is attested by the large number that survive to this day there are over two thousand copies of the Greek Gospels alone. The Four Gospels were also combined into a single narrative in what are known as Gospel Harmonies. Although suppressed as heretical in the 2nd century, harmonised versions of the Gospels circulated throughout the medieval period. Also particularly numerous were psalters, copies of the Psalms structured to mirror their daily use in monastic liturgy. The Book of Revelation, or Apocalypse, appeared in separate volumes or combined with various biblical or non-biblical texts. Of the three hundred or so surviving copies of the Greek text of Revelation over forty appear in otherwise non-biblical compilations. In the West the Book of Revelation was most often copied together with a commentary explaining it when not part of the Vulgate; most surviving Greek copies of Revelation include or relate to a commentary. Moreover, in the West many copies of an individual book or groups of books of the Bible, such as the Psalms, Gospels or Pauline Epistles, included commentaries." British Library
Historicity is very hard to prove with this history of the gospels

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Why don't the Gospels meet the "standard of historicity" (whatever that may be)?

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n the study of history as an academic discipline, a primary source (also called an original source) is an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study. It serves as an original source of information about the topic.

History begins with an event and is history when we can attest to an event "actually happened."
Let take the Gospel of Luke
When Luke sat down to write his gospel and put to paper what were his sources?
What were Luke's sources for the historicity or what actually happened at feeding of the 5 thousand?
I will start. He had a copy of Mark.
What else? Take a shot at it JXL

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Luke said many people had declared what had happened, and "delivered them unto us." In other words, he talked to people who were able to declare what had happened. Remember, Luke was a physician, a profession which would have enabled him to come into contact with lots of different people.

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TS: "Alan Guth and Stephen Hawking using quantum theory have demonstrated a spontaneously formed universe is plausible, without the need for a creator.".

Actually, what they have done is claim that if a series of assumptions are correct, none of them proven, then within the parameters of their limited description a universe creator outside those parameters is not defined as required ... but something else is.

---

See my previous post above to Tarp.

---

Very efficient, using the same excuse twice.

A good example of GIGO as well.

---

GIGO is a very good example of religious lore and mysticism. Thank you.

---

Considering the sum effect of religion, from charities to free education to moral compass, a reasonable person would count Faith and Religion as good things.

---

Explain Manifest Destiny to the natives that were wiped out. The Japanese followed their Emporer because he was devine. Gunbarrel conversions are pretty common. Religion hss been corrupted and used to justify atrocities many times.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: "Alan Guth and Stephen Hawking using quantum theory have demonstrated a spontaneously formed universe is plausible, without the need for a creator.".

Actually, what they have done is claim that if a series of assumptions are correct, none of them proven, then within the parameters of their limited description a universe creator outside those parameters is not defined as required ... but something else is.

---

See my previous post above to Tarp.

---

Very efficient, using the same excuse twice.

A good example of GIGO as well.

---

GIGO is a very good example of religious lore and mysticism. Thank you.

---

Considering the sum effect of religion, from charities to free education to moral compass, a reasonable person would count Faith and Religion as good things.

---

Explain Manifest Destiny to the natives that were wiped out. The Japanese followed their Emporer because he was devine. Gunbarrel conversions are pretty common. Religion hss been corrupted and used to justify atrocities many times.

---

You're mixing faith and religion with politics and human nature again.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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TS: "Alan Guth and Stephen Hawking using quantum theory have demonstrated a spontaneously formed universe is plausible, without the need for a creator.".

Actually, what they have done is claim that if a series of assumptions are correct, none of them proven, then within the parameters of their limited description a universe creator outside those parameters is not defined as required ... but something else is.

---

See my previous post above to Tarp.

---

Very efficient, using the same excuse twice.

A good example of GIGO as well.

---

GIGO is a very good example of religious lore and mysticism. Thank you.

---

Considering the sum effect of religion, from charities to free education to moral compass, a reasonable person would count Faith and Religion as good things.

---

Religion hss been corrupted and used to justify atrocities many times.

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How fortunate you are to be above such mundane influences .

Have you selected your Cambodian abode yet ?

I was just pointing out that religion can be dangerous.

No.. I am in Alexandria this week. I signed a contract for another year in Alaska so I am, going back to work for another year.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I was just pointing out that religion can be dangerous.

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Like stated earlier, people can use religion to be dangerous. True Judaism or Christianity is not dangerous.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I was just pointing out that religion can be dangerous.

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Dang! There's lots of dangerous stuff out there.

Love is Like Oxygen,
You get too much, you get too high,
Not enough and you're gonna die.
Love gets you high

Ban love
Ban oxygen
Ban sugar
Ban Reese's (delete this line)
Ban water
Ban petroleum
Ban sunshine
Ban heat
Ban cold

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: "Alan Guth and Stephen Hawking using quantum theory have demonstrated a spontaneously formed universe is plausible, without the need for a creator.".

Actually, what they have done is claim that if a series of assumptions are correct, none of them proven, then within the parameters of their limited description a universe creator outside those parameters is not defined as required ... but something else is.

---

See my previous post above to Tarp.

---

Very efficient, using the same excuse twice.

A good example of GIGO as well.

---

GIGO is a very good example of religious lore and mysticism. Thank you.

---

Considering the sum effect of religion, from charities to free education to moral compass, a reasonable person would count Faith and Religion as good things.

---

Explain Manifest Destiny to the natives that were wiped out. The Japanese followed their Emporer because he was devine. Gunbarrel conversions are pretty common. Religion hss been corrupted and used to justify atrocities many times.

---

One of the first acts of the Khmer Rouge when they took power in Cambodia was to ban all religion. How did that work out for the Cambodian people?

I am not anti religion and am a Christian. I was just pointing out religions can be dangerous.

I have never seen the movie but 3 years ago I visited the killing fields of Phnom Penh. Very sobering and if I had been alone I might have shed a tear. It really made me reflect on how humans can treat other humans. How can a man order men women and children be killed like that?

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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am a Christian.

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On what do you base this conclusion ?

Rules are clearly abhorrent to you .

Don't recall you regularly attending any specific Church .

Not trying to be snarky……but their are millions of people who anoint themselves the label of Christian without any serious effort to follow the teachings of Christ .

These folks merely decide for themselves which ( if any ) rules they are willing to follow yet inevitably pronounce themselves as a 'good' person .

As if such a self proclamation is all it's going to take come Judgment Day .

Thanks for asking.

I
I was born into a Baptist family and baptized at FBC of Woodway by the Rev. Jimmy Hinton. I attended church there till i left home. I attended Sacred Heart over on Bagby for a few years. Got to know Father Lawrence and held great respect for him. After I retired and started traveling I attended a wide variety of churches. In the UAE I met with a small group of Christians on Saturday mornings in rotated locations. In Thailand I split time with St. Josephs and the Buddhist temple. Good friend was Buddhist. I never earned merit but helped her and the monks, I believe my God is everywhere and can here my prayers no matter which building i am in. I in China I did not find a church but did go one once a month on my trips to HK. In Alaska I attended the Catholic church and was a regular reader from the missalette. In Cancun I went to a Catholic service on Palapa Plaza. In Playa del Carmen I attended sun rise masses on Sundays at the beach. Yesterday I went to a Baptist church here in Alexandria with a friend.

II. I believe that Jesus died on the cross to saved me from my sins. It is his sacrifice and my believe that will get me to heaven. I believe in unlimited atonement, free will and once saved always saved. I dont believe any of my works can buy or pay for my way into heaven. I support the education of two young kids, and pay for a friends college tuition. Its not much. I help who I can. Jesus said something about a needle and a camel and a rich man. I wont have to worry about that one.

I enjoy my life. I am honest and simple. Havent owned a car or truck in 9 years. I am homeless, My kids and grandkids are doing well. All three of my children have been married once, go to church, own homes and cars and are well educated. My daughter is an admin at an Austin hospital. my oldest son teaches north of Dallas and owns a big house in SLC and my baby is a Michigan law grad and practices in San Fran. 7 healthy grandkids that love to see grandpa.

III. I have been married twice for 13 years. All 3 of my kids are out of the same woman. I have been single for years and date a wide variety of women. I do not consort with prostitutes. I have n o personal knowledge of STD's and suggest getting real medical advice. I have friends all over the world.

While I agree that we still are in the early stages of understanding consciousness, isn't it a bit far fetched to suggest that the brain is a receiver for consciousness, instead of it being produced by the brain/body? I am open to the idea … but is there any evidence to it whatsoever?

Consciousness can vary in complexity. Many animals have primitive forms of it, and some have self-awareness similar to humans. In this case, are their brains also receivers?

There is overwhelming evidence that consciousness comes from the brain/body - it will just take time to better understand.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

I am not anti religion and am a Christian. I was just pointing out religions can be dangerous.

I have never seen the movie but 3 years ago I visited the killing fields of Phnom Penh. Very sobering and if I had been alone I might have shed a tear. It really made me reflect on how humans can treat other humans. How can a man order men women and children be killed like that?

---

If you can ask that question, you have not studied Man, nor paid attention to Scripture.

Our hope is in Christ for that reason, that Man by himself is never enough to overcome his own evil.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Thanks for asking.

I
I was born into a Baptist family and baptized at FBC of Woodway by the Rev. Jimmy Hinton. I attended church there till i left home. I attended Sacred Heart over on Bagby for a few years. Got to know Father Lawrence and held great respect for him. After I retired and started traveling I attended a wide variety of churches. In the UAE I met with a small group of Christians on Saturday mornings in rotated locations. In Thailand I split time with St. Josephs and the Buddhist temple. Good friend was Buddhist. I never earned merit but helped her and the monks, I believe my God is everywhere and can here my prayers no matter which building i am in. I in China I did not find a church but did go one once a month on my trips to HK. In Alaska I attended the Catholic church and was a regular reader from the missalette. In Cancun I went to a Catholic service on Palapa Plaza. In Playa del Carmen I attended sun rise masses on Sundays at the beach. Yesterday I went to a Baptist church here in Alexandria with a friend.

II. I believe that Jesus died on the cross to saved me from my sins. It is his sacrifice and my believe that will get me to heaven. I believe in unlimited atonement, free will and once saved always saved. I dont believe any of my works can buy or pay for my way into heaven. I support the education of two young kids, and pay for a friends college tuition. Its not much. I help who I can. Jesus said something about a needle and a camel and a rich man. I wont have to worry about that one.

I enjoy my life. I am honest and simple. Havent owned a car or truck in 9 years. I am homeless, My kids and grandkids are doing well. All three of my children have been married once, go to church, own homes and cars and are well educated. My daughter is an admin at an Austin hospital. my oldest son teaches north of Dallas and owns a big house in SLC and my baby is a Michigan law grad and practices in San Fran. 7 healthy grandkids that love to see grandpa.

III. I have been married twice for 13 years. All 3 of my kids are out of the same woman. I have been single for years and date a wide variety of women. I do not consort with prostitutes. I have n o personal knowledge of STD's and suggest getting real medical advice. I have friends all over the world.

---

Thanks for answering .

Glad to hear that you are not infected with STD's and don't consort with gals who trade sex for assistance .

You have repeatedly mentioned how much you enjoy your life so I am sure that is the case. Suspect most of us retired posters do as well .

Today my wife and I celebrate our 42nd anniversary ( she is a late sleeper ) . Have dinner reservations tonight in Loveland, Colorado then leave tomorrow for a few nights in Vail .

Took our grandsons to the neighborhood pool yesterday .....grandson number 3 due August 25th . Postponed our Maine trip still again to October so we can be available to help perfect daughter through the birth anyway possible.

I am a sinner of course.....classic case of Catholic guilt. But fully aware how incredibly lucky I am . Married the best gal in the world and survived many close calls. Especially on the farm/ranch .

Oldbear83 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

I am not anti religion and am a Christian. I was just pointing out religions can be dangerous.

I have never seen the movie but 3 years ago I visited the killing fields of Phnom Penh. Very sobering and if I had been alone I might have shed a tear. It really made me reflect on how humans can treat other humans. How can a man order men women and children be killed like that?

---

If you can ask that question, you have not studied Man, nor paid attention to Scripture.

Our hope is in Christ for that reason, that Man by himself is never enough to overcome his own evil.

---

I can ask that question and I have studied man. Hitler was baptized a catholic and later claimed he was a German Christian. U.S. Grant, Phil Sheridan, Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer were all Christians. Pol Pot spent a year at a Buddhist monastery and attended a Catholic school. Just like all other religions, Christianity has had its share of serial killers and horrible men.

On the other hand, Mahatma Ghandi, Buddha, and Thomas Jefferson and were not a Christians but a great men.

So yes, I have studied and can still ask that question.

BaylorJacket said:

---

While I agree that we still are in the early stages of understanding consciousness, isn't it a bit far fetched to suggest that the brain is a receiver for consciousness, instead of it being produced by the brain/body? I am open to the idea … but is there any evidence to it whatsoever?

Consciousness can vary in complexity. Many animals have primitive forms of it, and some have self-awareness similar to humans. In this case, are their brains also receivers?

There is overwhelming evidence that consciousness comes from the brain/body - it will just take time to better understand.

---

lots of interesting and opposing information about consciousness and the split brain.

Canada, congrats. You are certainly a better man than I am. Maybe when I grow up I will settle down.

I threw in the part about STDs because another poster was asking me questions.

Regarding church attendance

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BaylorJacket said:

---

While I agree that we still are in the early stages of understanding consciousness, isn't it a bit far fetched to suggest that the brain is a receiver for consciousness, instead of it being produced by the brain/body? I am open to the idea … but is there any evidence to it whatsoever?

Consciousness can vary in complexity. Many animals have primitive forms of it, and some have self-awareness similar to humans. In this case, are their brains also receivers?

There is overwhelming evidence that consciousness comes from the brain/body - it will just take time to better understand.

---

lots of interesting and opposing information about consciousness and the split brai

---

https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-self-aware-fish-raises-doubts-about-a-cognitive-test-20181212/

I had never heard of self awareness and animals so I looked around. This is an interesting article.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I am not anti religion and am a Christian. I was just pointing out religions can be dangerous.

I have never seen the movie but 3 years ago I visited the killing fields of Phnom Penh. Very sobering and if I had been alone I might have shed a tear. It really made me reflect on how humans can treat other humans. How can a man order men women and children be killed like that?

---

If you can ask that question, you have not studied Man, nor paid attention to Scripture.

Our hope is in Christ for that reason, that Man by himself is never enough to overcome his own evil.

---

I can ask that question and I have studied man. Hitler was baptized a catholic and later claimed he was a German Christian. U.S. Grant, Phil Sheridan, Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer were all Christians. Pol Pot spent a year at a Buddhist monastery and attended a Catholic school. Just like all other religions, Christianity has had its share of serial killers and horrible men.

On the other hand, Mahatma Ghandi, Buddha, and Thomas Jefferson and were not a Christians but a great men.

So yes, I have studied and can still ask that question.

---

Hitler was not remotely a Catholic as an adult. In fact he hated Catholics almost as much as Jews.

Same goes for the rest of your list ...as ADULTS .

Ghandi was first and foremost a POLITICIAN.......and he stated as such several times.

Thomas Jefferson a great man ? He was born to money, yet left his family in debt . An agnostic who attempted to seduce the wife of his best friend , ran from the British during their invasion of Virginia and repeatedly forced his female slaves into sexual relations . The hypocrite didn't even free his own slave offspring .

You certainly enjoy twisting history to suit your priorities ........guess it must work for you .

I was trying to point out there have been great men outside of Chtistianity and some pretty bad ones within. Just like all other religions.

I disagreed with oldbear and his, what i think is, a great over simplification.

Hitler was baptized and later claimed to be a German Christian. You know that. He later got into some pretty wierd beliefs. I know that.

Ghandi was a great leader of his people.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BaylorJacket said:

---

While I agree that we still are in the early stages of understanding consciousness, isn't it a bit far fetched to suggest that the brain is a receiver for consciousness, instead of it being produced by the brain/body? I am open to the idea … but is there any evidence to it whatsoever?

Consciousness can vary in complexity. Many animals have primitive forms of it, and some have self-awareness similar to humans. In this case, are their brains also receivers?

There is overwhelming evidence that consciousness comes from the brain/body - it will just take time to better understand.

---

lots of interesting and opposing information about consciousness and the split brain.

---

Would you be able to link some sources/information on the split brain? I'm ignorant on the split brain idea lol, never heard it before today

Good clip. I dont go to church to get to heaven. My salvation is from my belief not my works or my attendance. I go because I like to go and because we are told not to forsake the assembly.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I was trying to point out there have been great men outside of Chtistianity and some pretty bad ones within. Just like all other religions.

I disagreed with oldbear and his, what i think is, a great over simplification.

Hitler was baptized and later claimed to be a German Christian. You know that. He later got into some pretty wierd beliefs. I know that.

Ghandi was a great leader of his people.

---

Good grief...... you and your strawmen .


As an ADULT Hitler hated the Catholic Church. Considered the Church a threat to his political power and that of the State .

As a result Hitler executed thousands of priests, nuns and parishioners.

Ghandi was fortunate in that he dealt with a British Empire that was fatigued with ruling India . Countless other rulers would have simply executed Ghandi early on .

Ghandi gets great press in the United States primarily due to Hollywood's portrayal of the man . However the facts are far more complex.

Keep in mind Ghandi's assassination was committed by a fellow Hindu who thought Ghandi was too pro Muslim.

There is no religious, political or governmental agency that has accomplished more for humankind than Christianity .

Canada2017 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I was trying to point out there have been great men outside of Chtistianity and some pretty bad ones within. Just like all other religions.

I disagreed with oldbear and his, what i think is, a great over simplification.

Hitler was baptized and later claimed to be a German Christian. You know that. He later got into some pretty wierd beliefs. I know that.

Ghandi was a great leader of his people.

---

Good grief...... you and your strawmen .


As an ADULT Hitler hated the Catholic Church. Considered the Church a threat to his political power and that of the State .

As a result Hitler executed thousands of priests, nuns and parishioners.

Ghandi was fortunate in that he dealt with a British Empire that was fatigued with ruling India . Countless other rulers would have simply executed Ghandi early on .

Ghandi gets great press in the United States primarily due to Hollywood's portrayal of the man . However the facts are far more complex.

Keep in mind Ghandi's assassination was committed by a fellow Hindu who thought Ghandi was too pro Muslim.

There is no religious, political or governmental agency that has accomplished more for humankind than Christianity .

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At the risk of sounding mean, I believe LIQR is playing at Sophistry. He is using words to score imaginary ego points, rather than discuss ideas.

I observe, for example, that LIQR uses the very human nature I mentioned, in an attempt to broad-brush Christianity as ineffective in improving human morality. He does the same thing in opposite to promote a we-don't-need-God-to-be-good Humanism.

As I believe all people are made by God, it is no news to me that someone is capable of doing good. The question at hand is where that goodness comes from, especially when doing good comes as the expense of personal gain or convenience.

My contention, that without God we eventually fail of our own fallen nature, was unaddressed. Small wonder there, as the contention is uncomfortable for anyone who takes it seriously.

Oldbear83 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I was trying to point out there have been great men outside of Chtistianity and some pretty bad ones within. Just like all other religions.

I disagreed with oldbear and his, what i think is, a great over simplification.

Hitler was baptized and later claimed to be a German Christian. You know that. He later got into some pretty wierd beliefs. I know that.

Ghandi was a great leader of his people.

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Good grief...... you and your strawmen .


As an ADULT Hitler hated the Catholic Church. Considered the Church a threat to his political power and that of the State .

As a result Hitler executed thousands of priests, nuns and parishioners.

Ghandi was fortunate in that he dealt with a British Empire that was fatigued with ruling India . Countless other rulers would have simply executed Ghandi early on .

Ghandi gets great press in the United States primarily due to Hollywood's portrayal of the man . However the facts are far more complex.

Keep in mind Ghandi's assassination was committed by a fellow Hindu who thought Ghandi was too pro Muslim.

There is no religious, political or governmental agency that has accomplished more for humankind than Christianity .

---

He is using words to score imaginary ego points, rather than discuss ideas.

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Realized this about The Duke years ago .

Amuses me to chat with superior life forms .

Canada2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I was trying to point out there have been great men outside of Chtistianity and some pretty bad ones within. Just like all other religions.

I disagreed with oldbear and his, what i think is, a great over simplification.

Hitler was baptized and later claimed to be a German Christian. You know that. He later got into some pretty wierd beliefs. I know that.

Ghandi was a great leader of his people.

---

Good grief...... you and your strawmen .


As an ADULT Hitler hated the Catholic Church. Considered the Church a threat to his political power and that of the State .

As a result Hitler executed thousands of priests, nuns and parishioners.

Ghandi was fortunate in that he dealt with a British Empire that was fatigued with ruling India . Countless other rulers would have simply executed Ghandi early on .

Ghandi gets great press in the United States primarily due to Hollywood's portrayal of the man . However the facts are far more complex.

Keep in mind Ghandi's assassination was committed by a fellow Hindu who thought Ghandi was too pro Muslim.

There is no religious, political or governmental agency that has accomplished more for humankind than Christianity .

---

He is using words to score imaginary ego points, rather than discuss ideas.

---

Realized this about The Duke years ago .

However it amuses me to chat with superior life forms .

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TS: "Alan Guth and Stephen Hawking using quantum theory have demonstrated a spontaneously formed universe is plausible, without the need for a creator.".

Actually, what they have done is claim that if a series of assumptions are correct, none of them proven, then within the parameters of their limited description a universe creator outside those parameters is not defined as required ... but something else is.

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See my previous post above to Tarp.

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Very efficient, using the same excuse twice.

A good example of GIGO as well.

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GIGO is a very good example of religious lore and mysticism. Thank you.

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Considering the sum effect of religion, from charities to free education to moral compass, a reasonable person would count Faith and Religion as good things.

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You mean like some of the free education about which the Pope is on a Canadian apology tour?