Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Deconstructing is a misleading term. We used to more precisely call it apostacy.

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They like to make it sound as if they were the victims of their upbringing typically, that some mega church or youth group cliches they endured made the person, work, and worth of Christ and church history invalid.

Because you know, reasons of a secular progressive lens that usually have next to nothing to do with the gospel itself.

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While I am sure there are people who mistakenly use the term deconstructing when referring to addressing personal issues with the church, any intellectually honest person knows they are completely separate topics.

The OP was solely about interpreting the Bible and the historical context.

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Anyone who doesn't believe in the deity of Christ is not a Christian and is not intellectually honest about being one.

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I agree with you - I never said that was the case? I personally know many people (including myself and my wife) who have deconstructed from fundamental Christianity and still view Christ as a deity.

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You gave credence to the idea Christ was not Christ at all.

"Historical Jesus - Scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to studying Jesus now are quite certain that Jesus believed and taught Apocalypticism, and did not even consider himself to be God. This obviously does not mesh well with fundamental Christian teaching."

Why would you do that?

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The purpose of the original post was to open the door for discussion on these topics, I did not state any opinions (besides things like evolution being obviously true)

I still have not had the time to research much about Apocalypticism and whether or not Jesus himself claimed to be God during his mission. Nonetheless, it is interesting what conclusions secular and theist scholars have come to.

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If you open the discussion about the validity of deity of Christ you are apostatizing from the Christian faith, there's no way to finesse it as otherwise.

There is no Christianity if He's not the God-man messiah, and all subsequent efforts to pretend Christianity has any value apart from that are a mockery.

So if you know anyone claiming to be "Christian" that entertains that Christ is not Christ, they are not Christians.

And I'm not really interested in the sophistry of non Christians about what they think Christianity should be.

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I believe you are perhaps misinterpreting what I wrote - on the topic I referred to scholars are debating whether or not Jesus himself believed he was God, not whether he was God or not.

You obviously cannot prove if someone was God, at the end of the day that is a faith decision

Again - I am not stating this is my belief, and would guess this is a view held by a minority of those deconstructing.

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I am not interested in the sophistry of non believers claiming scholarship about Christianity, and it is of no value or edification to Christianity to give their sophistry an audience.

If someone doubts their faith for a season and returns that is one thing, but if someone recasts a set of beliefs in their own image and cites non Christians as their sources, then tries to market this Frankensteined belief system of moralism and cherry picked beliefs as Christianity, then no, they are not deconstructing or reconstructing or anything in between, they are simply apostate.

It's straight forward stuff.

And if someone is questioning whether or not Christ thought He was Christ then they are questioning His deity, you can't torture language enough to spin that as otherwise.

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I respectfully disagree, but thank you for providing your perspective.

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You can't deny the deity of Christ and be a Christian, there's no room for disagreement, respectful or otherwise.

So entertaining a sophist's arguments that He didn't believe He was divine and therefore not even Christ at all is a grave disrespect to Christianity itself if one is going to insist that is valid position for a professing Christian to have.

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Per my last email, that was not what I said.

I am not questioning Christ's divinity, instead of if Christ knew of his divinity while on earth. If you are uncomfortable looking into these topics, I completely understand.

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And I am telling you in no uncertain terms there is no edification in entertaining people that do as you have done.

I am not uncomfortable looking into these topics, I just am not impressed by your pseudo intellectual attempts to pretend you can be winsome about being apostate.

Asking "Hey, what if God didn't know He was God?" isn't a Christian belief, and serves zero value to the gospel or the kingdom, in fact it's heretical.

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I have not stated an opinion on the matter, nor tried to even provide evidence. You cherry picked one vague statement on the OP and are making blanket statements about those deconstructing.

You obviously have a clear and negative opinion on the topic of Deconstruction.

Again, the sole purpose of the OP was to simply and respectfully discuss these topics, if you are not interested in that there are plenty of other religious posts.

Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I probably shouldn't comment here but I'll try and tone it down. I was born before WWII, by months. We attended a Baptist or a Deciples of Christ church depending which town we lived in.

I sang Jesus Loves Me because my momma told me so. At Baylor I joined 7th and James but never really attended during my freshman year and hardly thereafter. At the time of my marriage I joined the Episcopal Church because my wife's family had generations in that Church.

Our children were cradle Episcopals. They attended Episcopal Schools. I cannot ever recall any conversations about religion other that at Christmas and Easter from childhood through today. None of our children nor the grandkids attend services.

I had a near fatal illness decades ago and I prayed every day. It gave me comfort. But in the end I find discussions like the ones above where "if you don't believe like I do..." leave me cold. If everyone could just practice the basic principle of all religions it would help the world. I'm a big believer in rules.

Never ever accepted Virgin Birth, nor parting of Red Sea, Johna and the Whale was to scare kids.

Most on here porbably think I'm headed straight for their version of hell. I'm happy thinking I was born here in the USA by evolution. A great topic for another day.

---

Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 3,000 years before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal Spiritual Teacher, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 563 years before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 900 years before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian Prophet born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 1,000 years before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 800 years before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention - 600 years before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 500 years before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 400 years before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 200 years before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 200 years before Jesus.

Did you read my post? Never said that whatsoever lol

Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Did you read my post? Never said that whatsoever lol

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Yeah, I did, but selective reading is the deconstructionist schtick, so you clearly read what you want into things.

Then provide Bill Maher arm chair talking points that he delivers while high with Mike Tyson as your level of scholarship and want to be taken seriously.

"Hey man, like what if God didn't know he was God?"

Whoa bra, blew some stoner minds.

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I wasn't responding to you… it was for the Jesus born on Christmas guy.

Great discussing the topic with you man.

Your hostility certainly won't bring people closer to Jesus, let alone want them to have anything to do with his message when people like you, who say you're a believer, act like another human is less than.

Your rigid theology is just one example of how cult-like ideologies (lm right and everyone else is wrong) lead people to be filled with unnecessary detest for others.

BaylorJacket said:

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Your hostility certainly won't bring people closer to Jesus, let alone want them to have anything to do with his message when people like you, who say you're a believer, act like another human is less than.

Your rigid theology is just one example of how cult-like ideologies (lm right and everyone else is wrong) lead people to be filled with unnecessary detest for others.

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I'm not interested in making a wolf comfortable presenting an alternate gospel and practicing their yawn worthy sophistry while they blasphemy against Jesus Christ.

By what you show here you already don't know the gospel, no one here drove you away from it, they just didn't let you lie about it.

Someone outside of me is to blame for me is the tired deconstructionist cop out, the implication that if only people were as thoughtful and open minded as yourself maybe you'd not have unbelief or cherry picked ones.

Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Your hostility certainly won't bring people closer to Jesus, let alone want them to have anything to do with his message when people like you, who say you're a believer, act like another human is less than.

Your rigid theology is just one example of how cult-like ideologies (lm right and everyone else is wrong) lead people to be filled with unnecessary detest for others.

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I'm not interested in making a wolf comfortable presenting an alternate gospel and practicing their yawn worthy sophistry while they blasphemy against Jesus Christ.

By what you show here you already don't know the gospel, no one here drove you away from it, they just didn't let you lie about it.

Someone outside of me is to blame for me is the tired deconstructionist cop out, the implication that if only people were as thoughtful and open minded as yourself maybe you'd not have unbelief or cherry picked ones.

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Hope you have a great rest of your evening my fellow brother in Christ

BaylorJacket said:

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Did you read my post? Never said that whatsoever lol

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You were just going down that path and trying to suggest that the virgin birth is boloney is because of a shared similarity that does not even exist.

BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Your hostility certainly won't bring people closer to Jesus, let alone want them to have anything to do with his message when people like you, who say you're a believer, act like another human is less than.

Your rigid theology is just one example of how cult-like ideologies (lm right and everyone else is wrong) lead people to be filled with unnecessary detest for others.

---

I'm not interested in making a wolf comfortable presenting an alternate gospel and practicing their yawn worthy sophistry while they blasphemy against Jesus Christ.

By what you show here you already don't know the gospel, no one here drove you away from it, they just didn't let you lie about it.

Someone outside of me is to blame for me is the tired deconstructionist cop out, the implication that if only people were as thoughtful and open minded as yourself maybe you'd not have unbelief or cherry picked ones.

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Hope you have a great rest of your evening my fellow brother in Christ

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You believe in a Christ that doesn't even know he's Christ, therefore not Christ at all and no brother of mine.

Disingenuous sign offs are not the winsome mask you think they are.

JXL said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I probably shouldn't comment here but I'll try and tone it down. I was born before WWII, by months. We attended a Baptist or a Deciples of Christ church depending which town we lived in.

I sang Jesus Loves Me because my momma told me so. At Baylor I joined 7th and James but never really attended during my freshman year and hardly thereafter. At the time of my marriage I joined the Episcopal Church because my wife's family had generations in that Church.

Our children were cradle Episcopals. They attended Episcopal Schools. I cannot ever recall any conversations about religion other that at Christmas and Easter from childhood through today. None of our children nor the grandkids attend services.

I had a near fatal illness decades ago and I prayed every day. It gave me comfort. But in the end I find discussions like the ones above where "if you don't believe like I do..." leave me cold. If everyone could just practice the basic principle of all religions it would help the world. I'm a big believer in rules.

Never ever accepted Virgin Birth, nor parting of Red Sea, Johna and the Whale was to scare kids.

Most on here porbably think I'm headed straight for their version of hell. I'm happy thinking I was born here in the USA by evolution. A great topic for another day.

---

Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 3,000 YEARS before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 563 YEARS before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 900 YEARS before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 1,000 YEARS before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 800 YEARS before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin- 600 YEARS before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 500 YEARS before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 400 YEARS before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

---

This list is completely wrong. None of the deities listed were traditionally born on December 25, and I don't know of any who were said to have been born of virgins.

A few examples of the blatant errors in the list: Buddha waa not considered a "god," was born into a wealthy family but no tradition ever says he was born of a virgin, and his birthday is celebrated in April or May (depending on the country).

Krishna was born to Devaki and her husband, Vasudeva, of the Yadava clan in Mathura, but no tradition says Devaki was a virgin. His birthday is celebrated in August.

Zarathustra also is not a god but the founder of Zoroastrianism, which worships Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom. No tradition places his birthdate as December 25 or says he was born of a virgin - in fact, he had two older brothers.

---

Now now, don't let facts get in the way of his whimsical apostasy journey that he decided he needs an audience for.

And what is an apostate without their false equivalency and straw man claims?

JXL said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I probably shouldn't comment here but I'll try and tone it down. I was born before WWII, by months. We attended a Baptist or a Deciples of Christ church depending which town we lived in.

I sang Jesus Loves Me because my momma told me so. At Baylor I joined 7th and James but never really attended during my freshman year and hardly thereafter. At the time of my marriage I joined the Episcopal Church because my wife's family had generations in that Church.

Our children were cradle Episcopals. They attended Episcopal Schools. I cannot ever recall any conversations about religion other that at Christmas and Easter from childhood through today. None of our children nor the grandkids attend services.

I had a near fatal illness decades ago and I prayed every day. It gave me comfort. But in the end I find discussions like the ones above where "if you don't believe like I do..." leave me cold. If everyone could just practice the basic principle of all religions it would help the world. I'm a big believer in rules.

Never ever accepted Virgin Birth, nor parting of Red Sea, Johna and the Whale was to scare kids.

Most on here porbably think I'm headed straight for their version of hell. I'm happy thinking I was born here in the USA by evolution. A great topic for another day.

---

Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 3,000 YEARS before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 563 YEARS before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 900 YEARS before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 1,000 YEARS before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 800 YEARS before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin- 600 YEARS before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 500 YEARS before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 400 YEARS before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

---

This list is completely wrong. None of the deities listed were traditionally born on December 25, and I don't know of any who were said to have been born of virgins.

A few examples of the blatant errors in the list: Buddha waa not considered a "god," was born into a wealthy family but no tradition ever says he was born of a virgin, and his birthday is celebrated in April or May (depending on the country).

Krishna was born to Devaki and her husband, Vasudeva, of the Yadava clan in Mathura, but no tradition says Devaki was a virgin. His birthday is celebrated in August.

Zarathustra also is not a god but the founder of Zoroastrianism, which worships Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom. No tradition places his birthdate as December 25 or says he was born of a virgin - in fact, he had two older brothers.

---

I admittedly just straight up copied this from an article I read the other day, so thank you for calling me out lol (Zoroaster was indeed just a prophet - I'll make edits to the post, so it is not giving misinformation)

Completely agree though on the December 25th idea, anyone with Google will find that none of these figures were literally born on December 25th, however the myth of their birth on that date did indeed circulate due to the significance of this date with astrology. You will find "three kings", or the three starts that create the constellation of Orion mentioned in many of these stories, pointing to the dawn of the 25th, 3 days after the winter solstice.

The virgin birth idea though is less clear, I should have replaced "virgin birth" with miraculous/divine births, as that would be more accurate. There are stories of God's physically having intercourse to bear a miraculous child, but I do believe the Gospels contain the first documented story of a virgin giving birth to the son of God.

Happy to read any recommendations on the topic

Ursus Americanus said:

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JXL said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I probably shouldn't comment here but I'll try and tone it down. I was born before WWII, by months. We attended a Baptist or a Deciples of Christ church depending which town we lived in.

I sang Jesus Loves Me because my momma told me so. At Baylor I joined 7th and James but never really attended during my freshman year and hardly thereafter. At the time of my marriage I joined the Episcopal Church because my wife's family had generations in that Church.

Our children were cradle Episcopals. They attended Episcopal Schools. I cannot ever recall any conversations about religion other that at Christmas and Easter from childhood through today. None of our children nor the grandkids attend services.

I had a near fatal illness decades ago and I prayed every day. It gave me comfort. But in the end I find discussions like the ones above where "if you don't believe like I do..." leave me cold. If everyone could just practice the basic principle of all religions it would help the world. I'm a big believer in rules.

Never ever accepted Virgin Birth, nor parting of Red Sea, Johna and the Whale was to scare kids.

Most on here porbably think I'm headed straight for their version of hell. I'm happy thinking I was born here in the USA by evolution. A great topic for another day.

---

Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 3,000 YEARS before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 563 YEARS before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 900 YEARS before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 1,000 YEARS before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 800 YEARS before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin- 600 YEARS before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 500 YEARS before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 400 YEARS before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

---

This list is completely wrong. None of the deities listed were traditionally born on December 25, and I don't know of any who were said to have been born of virgins.

A few examples of the blatant errors in the list: Buddha waa not considered a "god," was born into a wealthy family but no tradition ever says he was born of a virgin, and his birthday is celebrated in April or May (depending on the country).

Krishna was born to Devaki and her husband, Vasudeva, of the Yadava clan in Mathura, but no tradition says Devaki was a virgin. His birthday is celebrated in August.

Zarathustra also is not a god but the founder of Zoroastrianism, which worships Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom. No tradition places his birthdate as December 25 or says he was born of a virgin - in fact, he had two older brothers.

---

Now now, don't let facts get in the way of his whimsical apostasy journey that he decided he needs an audience for.

And what is an apostate without their false equivalency and straw man claims?

---

Ursus Americanus, my favorite brother in Christ, that is too kind of you to say. You have brought an incredibly insightful perspective to this conversation - thank you.

Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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JXL said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I probably shouldn't comment here but I'll try and tone it down. I was born before WWII, by months. We attended a Baptist or a Deciples of Christ church depending which town we lived in.

I sang Jesus Loves Me because my momma told me so. At Baylor I joined 7th and James but never really attended during my freshman year and hardly thereafter. At the time of my marriage I joined the Episcopal Church because my wife's family had generations in that Church.

Our children were cradle Episcopals. They attended Episcopal Schools. I cannot ever recall any conversations about religion other that at Christmas and Easter from childhood through today. None of our children nor the grandkids attend services.

I had a near fatal illness decades ago and I prayed every day. It gave me comfort. But in the end I find discussions like the ones above where "if you don't believe like I do..." leave me cold. If everyone could just practice the basic principle of all religions it would help the world. I'm a big believer in rules.

Never ever accepted Virgin Birth, nor parting of Red Sea, Johna and the Whale was to scare kids.

Most on here porbably think I'm headed straight for their version of hell. I'm happy thinking I was born here in the USA by evolution. A great topic for another day.

---

Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 3,000 YEARS before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 563 YEARS before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 900 YEARS before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 1,000 YEARS before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 800 YEARS before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin- 600 YEARS before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 500 YEARS before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 400 YEARS before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

---

This list is completely wrong. None of the deities listed were traditionally born on December 25, and I don't know of any who were said to have been born of virgins.

A few examples of the blatant errors in the list: Buddha waa not considered a "god," was born into a wealthy family but no tradition ever says he was born of a virgin, and his birthday is celebrated in April or May (depending on the country).

Krishna was born to Devaki and her husband, Vasudeva, of the Yadava clan in Mathura, but no tradition says Devaki was a virgin. His birthday is celebrated in August.

Zarathustra also is not a god but the founder of Zoroastrianism, which worships Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom. No tradition places his birthdate as December 25 or says he was born of a virgin - in fact, he had two older brothers.

---

Now now, don't let facts get in the way of his whimsical apostasy journey that he decided he needs an audience for.

And what is an apostate without their false equivalency and straw man claims?

---

Ursus Americanus, my favorite brother in Christ, that is too kind of you to say. You have brought an incredibly insightful perspective to this conversation - thank you.

---

Jacket, my cliche bore of a heretic, you're not fooling anyone.

The apostate playbook is a predictable yawn, the attempt to rebrand it as deconstruction isn't anymore inspiring than the more honest approach.

---

By your logic you have an apostate as your profile picture lol. Dave Aranda is an active reader of Richard Rohr, who teaches the Cosmic/Universal Christ theory - something that is about as progressive Christianity as you can get before hitting agnosticism.

Side note, Richard Rohr's Universal Christ is a great read.

Coke Bear said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 3,000 years before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal Spiritual Teacher, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 563 years before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 900 years before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian Prophet born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 1,000 years before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 800 years before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention - 600 years before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 500 years before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 400 years before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 200 years before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, conceived by divine intervention around 200 years before Jesus.

---

I just did some quick research on each one of these gods. This is 100% False.

None of them were born of virgins nor were they born on December 25.

Also the Roman calendar began about 500 BC. In 153 BC the Roman Senate made January the first month, moving December the end of the calendar year. The Julian calendar stated around 45 BC. How would cultures around the world 100 - to 2500 years before the adoption of the Roman calendar know of December?

Finally, with no disrespect toward you, false information like this, presented as fact, is what has led many people away from Christianity. People will not do the research to check the facts. They run with this because it fits a narrative that they want to believe.

Fortunately for me, I've heard these false claims before and knew they weren't true.

---

Completely agree - my apologies for the misinformation. Made a post above with some clarifications in that none of these Gods/people were born to a virgin, but instead was a case of divine intervention.

As for the Dec 25th part, it is a myth about someone being born three days after the Winter Solstice. They were not believed to be literally born on Dec 25th.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Coke Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Not really. The U.S. used science to end what would have cost more lives if it continued.

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So it's OK to kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians to save Americans lives?

TexasScientist said:

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The Church is responsible for the Canadian atrocity.

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No the Church is not responsible. People in the church are culpable of these crimes. The Church never condones violence to the innocent.

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This doesn't sound like someone waging war

" And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Permit even this." And He touched his ear and healed him."
Luke 22:50-51 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke%2022:50-51&version=NKJV

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Forgive my ignorance; however, I do not understand the context of your post.

BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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JXL said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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I probably shouldn't comment here but I'll try and tone it down. I was born before WWII, by months. We attended a Baptist or a Deciples of Christ church depending which town we lived in.

I sang Jesus Loves Me because my momma told me so. At Baylor I joined 7th and James but never really attended during my freshman year and hardly thereafter. At the time of my marriage I joined the Episcopal Church because my wife's family had generations in that Church.

Our children were cradle Episcopals. They attended Episcopal Schools. I cannot ever recall any conversations about religion other that at Christmas and Easter from childhood through today. None of our children nor the grandkids attend services.

I had a near fatal illness decades ago and I prayed every day. It gave me comfort. But in the end I find discussions like the ones above where "if you don't believe like I do..." leave me cold. If everyone could just practice the basic principle of all religions it would help the world. I'm a big believer in rules.

Never ever accepted Virgin Birth, nor parting of Red Sea, Johna and the Whale was to scare kids.

Most on here porbably think I'm headed straight for their version of hell. I'm happy thinking I was born here in the USA by evolution. A great topic for another day.

---

Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 3,000 YEARS before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 563 YEARS before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 900 YEARS before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 1,000 YEARS before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 800 YEARS before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin- 600 YEARS before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 500 YEARS before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 400 YEARS before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

---

This list is completely wrong. None of the deities listed were traditionally born on December 25, and I don't know of any who were said to have been born of virgins.

A few examples of the blatant errors in the list: Buddha waa not considered a "god," was born into a wealthy family but no tradition ever says he was born of a virgin, and his birthday is celebrated in April or May (depending on the country).

Krishna was born to Devaki and her husband, Vasudeva, of the Yadava clan in Mathura, but no tradition says Devaki was a virgin. His birthday is celebrated in August.

Zarathustra also is not a god but the founder of Zoroastrianism, which worships Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom. No tradition places his birthdate as December 25 or says he was born of a virgin - in fact, he had two older brothers.

---

Now now, don't let facts get in the way of his whimsical apostasy journey that he decided he needs an audience for.

And what is an apostate without their false equivalency and straw man claims?

---

Ursus Americanus, my favorite brother in Christ, that is too kind of you to say. You have brought an incredibly insightful perspective to this conversation - thank you.

---

Jacket, my cliche bore of a heretic, you're not fooling anyone.

The apostate playbook is a predictable yawn, the attempt to rebrand it as deconstruction isn't anymore inspiring than the more honest approach.

---

By your logic you have an apostate as your profile picture lol. Dave Aranda is an active reader of Richard Rohr, who teaches the Cosmic/Universal Christ theory - something that is about as progressive Christianity as you can get before hitting agnosticism.

Side note, Richard Rohr's Universal Christ is a great read.

---

Weak deflection from a weak mind.

Rooting for Aranda as a football coach has nothing to do with his reading list.

And yes, Richard Rohr is a pantheist heretic that denies the divinity of Christ or the existence of sin, little surprise you find him compelling.

He along with Rachel Hollis and Jen Hatmaker are the chief purveyors of the Enneagram fad that dupes people looking for a mystic excuse to take a goofy personality test and pretend it means something.

Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Ursus Americanus said:

---

JXL said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I probably shouldn't comment here but I'll try and tone it down. I was born before WWII, by months. We attended a Baptist or a Deciples of Christ church depending which town we lived in.

I sang Jesus Loves Me because my momma told me so. At Baylor I joined 7th and James but never really attended during my freshman year and hardly thereafter. At the time of my marriage I joined the Episcopal Church because my wife's family had generations in that Church.

Our children were cradle Episcopals. They attended Episcopal Schools. I cannot ever recall any conversations about religion other that at Christmas and Easter from childhood through today. None of our children nor the grandkids attend services.

I had a near fatal illness decades ago and I prayed every day. It gave me comfort. But in the end I find discussions like the ones above where "if you don't believe like I do..." leave me cold. If everyone could just practice the basic principle of all religions it would help the world. I'm a big believer in rules.

Never ever accepted Virgin Birth, nor parting of Red Sea, Johna and the Whale was to scare kids.

Most on here porbably think I'm headed straight for their version of hell. I'm happy thinking I was born here in the USA by evolution. A great topic for another day.

---

Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 3,000 YEARS before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 563 YEARS before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 900 YEARS before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 1,000 YEARS before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 800 YEARS before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin- 600 YEARS before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 500 YEARS before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 400 YEARS before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

---

This list is completely wrong. None of the deities listed were traditionally born on December 25, and I don't know of any who were said to have been born of virgins.

A few examples of the blatant errors in the list: Buddha waa not considered a "god," was born into a wealthy family but no tradition ever says he was born of a virgin, and his birthday is celebrated in April or May (depending on the country).

Krishna was born to Devaki and her husband, Vasudeva, of the Yadava clan in Mathura, but no tradition says Devaki was a virgin. His birthday is celebrated in August.

Zarathustra also is not a god but the founder of Zoroastrianism, which worships Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom. No tradition places his birthdate as December 25 or says he was born of a virgin - in fact, he had two older brothers.

---

Now now, don't let facts get in the way of his whimsical apostasy journey that he decided he needs an audience for.

And what is an apostate without their false equivalency and straw man claims?

---

Ursus Americanus, my favorite brother in Christ, that is too kind of you to say. You have brought an incredibly insightful perspective to this conversation - thank you.

---

Jacket, my cliche bore of a heretic, you're not fooling anyone.

The apostate playbook is a predictable yawn, the attempt to rebrand it as deconstruction isn't anymore inspiring than the more honest approach.

---

By your logic you have an apostate as your profile picture lol. Dave Aranda is an active reader of Richard Rohr, who teaches the Cosmic/Universal Christ theory - something that is about as progressive Christianity as you can get before hitting agnosticism.

Side note, Richard Rohr's Universal Christ is a great read.

---

Weak deflection from a weak mind.

Rooting for Aranda as a football coach has nothing to do with his reading list.

And yes, Richard Rohr is a pantheist heretic that denies the divinity of Christ or the existence of sin, little surprise you find him compelling.

He's along with Rachel Hollis and Jen Hatmaker are the chief purveyors of the Enneagram fad that dupes people looking for a mystic excuse to take a goofy personality test and pretend it means something.

---

Resulting to personal attacks on my mind? You radiate the love of Christ lol (plus dissing my intelligence is also a knock on Baylor… we need to find some common ground and keep that green & gold untarnished)

You sound like an intelligent and well spoken guy who is confident in your religious beliefs. I genuinely mean it when I say that's awesome.

Gasssssp!!!

BaylorJacket said:

---

JXL said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I probably shouldn't comment here but I'll try and tone it down. I was born before WWII, by months. We attended a Baptist or a Deciples of Christ church depending which town we lived in.

I sang Jesus Loves Me because my momma told me so. At Baylor I joined 7th and James but never really attended during my freshman year and hardly thereafter. At the time of my marriage I joined the Episcopal Church because my wife's family had generations in that Church.

Our children were cradle Episcopals. They attended Episcopal Schools. I cannot ever recall any conversations about religion other that at Christmas and Easter from childhood through today. None of our children nor the grandkids attend services.

I had a near fatal illness decades ago and I prayed every day. It gave me comfort. But in the end I find discussions like the ones above where "if you don't believe like I do..." leave me cold. If everyone could just practice the basic principle of all religions it would help the world. I'm a big believer in rules.

Never ever accepted Virgin Birth, nor parting of Red Sea, Johna and the Whale was to scare kids.

Most on here porbably think I'm headed straight for their version of hell. I'm happy thinking I was born here in the USA by evolution. A great topic for another day.

---

Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 3,000 YEARS before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 563 YEARS before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 900 YEARS before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 1,000 YEARS before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 800 YEARS before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin- 600 YEARS before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 500 YEARS before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 400 YEARS before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

---

This list is completely wrong. None of the deities listed were traditionally born on December 25, and I don't know of any who were said to have been born of virgins.

A few examples of the blatant errors in the list: Buddha waa not considered a "god," was born into a wealthy family but no tradition ever says he was born of a virgin, and his birthday is celebrated in April or May (depending on the country).

Krishna was born to Devaki and her husband, Vasudeva, of the Yadava clan in Mathura, but no tradition says Devaki was a virgin. His birthday is celebrated in August.

Zarathustra also is not a god but the founder of Zoroastrianism, which worships Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom. No tradition places his birthdate as December 25 or says he was born of a virgin - in fact, he had two older brothers.

---

I admittedly just straight up copied this from an article I read the other day, so thank you for calling me out lol....

---

It's concerning (though not surprising, and perhaps very telling) how just a single article, probably in some christian-hating website by a similarly dispositioned author, can so easily influence a progressive "christian" towards the side of doubt without even so much as a half-assed attempt at critical scrutiny.

Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Ursus Americanus said:

---

JXL said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I probably shouldn't comment here but I'll try and tone it down. I was born before WWII, by months. We attended a Baptist or a Deciples of Christ church depending which town we lived in.

I sang Jesus Loves Me because my momma told me so. At Baylor I joined 7th and James but never really attended during my freshman year and hardly thereafter. At the time of my marriage I joined the Episcopal Church because my wife's family had generations in that Church.

Our children were cradle Episcopals. They attended Episcopal Schools. I cannot ever recall any conversations about religion other that at Christmas and Easter from childhood through today. None of our children nor the grandkids attend services.

I had a near fatal illness decades ago and I prayed every day. It gave me comfort. But in the end I find discussions like the ones above where "if you don't believe like I do..." leave me cold. If everyone could just practice the basic principle of all religions it would help the world. I'm a big believer in rules.

Never ever accepted Virgin Birth, nor parting of Red Sea, Johna and the Whale was to scare kids.

Most on here porbably think I'm headed straight for their version of hell. I'm happy thinking I was born here in the USA by evolution. A great topic for another day.

---

Thank you for your post! Seems like you have a very interesting path to get where you are haha.

I actually have been researching the topic of Jesus qualities in historical gods, and I agree with you: the virgin birth was taken from other stories/cultures:
HORUS
An Egyptian-Sudanese God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 3,000 YEARS before Jesus.

BUDDHA
A Nepal God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 563 YEARS before Jesus.

KRISHNA
An Indian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 900 YEARS before Jesus.

ZARATHUSTRA
An Iranian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 1,000 YEARS before Jesus.

HERCULES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 800 YEARS before Jesus.

MITHRA
A Persian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin- 600 YEARS before Jesus.

DIONYSUS
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 500 YEARS before Jesus.

THAMMUZ
A Babylonian God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 400 YEARS before Jesus.

HERMES
A Greek God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

ADONIS
A Phoenician God, born 25th December, by a Virgin around 200 YEARS before Jesus.

---

This list is completely wrong. None of the deities listed were traditionally born on December 25, and I don't know of any who were said to have been born of virgins.

A few examples of the blatant errors in the list: Buddha waa not considered a "god," was born into a wealthy family but no tradition ever says he was born of a virgin, and his birthday is celebrated in April or May (depending on the country).

Krishna was born to Devaki and her husband, Vasudeva, of the Yadava clan in Mathura, but no tradition says Devaki was a virgin. His birthday is celebrated in August.

Zarathustra also is not a god but the founder of Zoroastrianism, which worships Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom. No tradition places his birthdate as December 25 or says he was born of a virgin - in fact, he had two older brothers.

---

Now now, don't let facts get in the way of his whimsical apostasy journey that he decided he needs an audience for.

And what is an apostate without their false equivalency and straw man claims?

---

Ursus Americanus, my favorite brother in Christ, that is too kind of you to say. You have brought an incredibly insightful perspective to this conversation - thank you.

---

Jacket, my cliche bore of a heretic, you're not fooling anyone.

The apostate playbook is a predictable yawn, the attempt to rebrand it as deconstruction isn't anymore inspiring than the more honest approach.

---

By your logic you have an apostate as your profile picture lol. Dave Aranda is an active reader of Richard Rohr, who teaches the Cosmic/Universal Christ theory - something that is about as progressive Christianity as you can get before hitting agnosticism.

Side note, Richard Rohr's Universal Christ is a great read.

---

Weak deflection from a weak mind.

Rooting for Aranda as a football coach has nothing to do with his reading list.

And yes, Richard Rohr is a pantheist heretic that denies the divinity of Christ or the existence of sin, little surprise you find him compelling.

He's along with Rachel Hollis and Jen Hatmaker are the chief purveyors of the Enneagram fad that dupes people looking for a mystic excuse to take a goofy personality test and pretend it means something.

---

Resulting to personal attacks on my mind? You radiate the love of Christ lol (plus dissing my intelligence is also a knock on Baylor… we need to find some common ground and keep that green & gold untarnished)

You sound like an intelligent and well spoken guy who is confident in your religious beliefs. I genuinely mean it when I say that's awesome.

---

You're defaming Christ and being called out as a heretic, if that's a personal affront to you then don't be a heretic.

Everything alleged about your cliche apostasy has been demonstrated by you in spades.

Apostates are such self important bores.

I'll root for Baylor sports with you but I won't pretend you're a compelling theologian with edifying perspectives on Christendom.

---

One "Christian's" heretic is another "Christian's" sage. It depends on what you believe about Christianity. I don't recall, in any version of Christianity, that it is Christlike to call someone names or otherwise insult them. Seems to me it call's into question such self professed adherent's authenticity.

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TS: "Alan Guth and Stephen Hawking using quantum theory have demonstrated a spontaneously formed universe is plausible, without the need for a creator.".

Actually, what they have done is claim that if a series of assumptions are correct, none of them proven, then within the parameters of their limited description a universe creator outside those parameters is not defined as required ... but something else is.

---

See my previous post above to Tarp.

---

Very efficient, using the same excuse twice.

A good example of GIGO as well.

---

GIGO is a very good example of religious lore and mysticism. Thank you.

---

Considering the sum effect of religion, from charities to free education to moral compass, a reasonable person would count Faith and Religion as good things.

---

Explain Manifest Destiny to the natives that were wiped out. The Japanese followed their Emporer because he was devine. Gunbarrel conversions are pretty common. Religion hss been corrupted and used to justify atrocities many times.

---

You're mixing faith and religion with politics and human nature again.

---

That's when you get January 6th.

---

Only if your religion is hating Trump

---

Poor attempt at deflection. January 6th had anything to do with hating Trump. It had everything to do with trying to overturn an election by extra-constitutional means. People should hate what happened on January 6th, and hold those responsible accountable. To do otherwise does not bode well for democracy.

Coke Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Not really. The U.S. used science to end what would have cost more lives if it continued.

---

So it's OK to kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians to save Americans lives?

TexasScientist said:

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The Church is responsible for the Canadian atrocity.

---

No the Church is not responsible. People in the church are culpable of these crimes. The Church never condones violence to the innocent.

---

Then why the coverups. The Church is made up of the people, and they are the one's who direct the Church's official actions. Monsanto is responsible for mesothelioma. Tobacco companies are responsible for lung cancer in certain instances. People in those organizations are culpable as is the overall organization for putting them in positions of authority. The Church corporation, the people in church authority, and the members make up the Church and are to varying degrees responsible.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: "Alan Guth and Stephen Hawking using quantum theory have demonstrated a spontaneously formed universe is plausible, without the need for a creator.".

Actually, what they have done is claim that if a series of assumptions are correct, none of them proven, then within the parameters of their limited description a universe creator outside those parameters is not defined as required ... but something else is.

---

See my previous post above to Tarp.

---

Very efficient, using the same excuse twice.

A good example of GIGO as well.

---

GIGO is a very good example of religious lore and mysticism. Thank you.

---

Considering the sum effect of religion, from charities to free education to moral compass, a reasonable person would count Faith and Religion as good things.

---

Explain Manifest Destiny to the natives that were wiped out. The Japanese followed their Emporer because he was devine. Gunbarrel conversions are pretty common. Religion hss been corrupted and used to justify atrocities many times.

---

You're mixing faith and religion with politics and human nature again.

---

That's when you get January 6th.

---

Only if your religion is hating Trump

---

Poor attempt at deflection. January 6th had anything to do with hating Trump. It had everything to do with trying to overturn an election by extra-constitutional means. People should hate what happened on January 6th, and hold those responsible accountable. To do otherwise does not bode well for democracy.

---

All this post proves, is that you are a Trump hater.

BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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He Hate Me said:

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Deconstructing is a misleading term. We used to more precisely call it apostacy.

---

They like to make it sound as if they were the victims of their upbringing typically, that some mega church or youth group cliches they endured made the person, work, and worth of Christ and church history invalid.

Because you know, reasons of a secular progressive lens that usually have next to nothing to do with the gospel itself.

---

While I am sure there are people who mistakenly use the term deconstructing when referring to addressing personal issues with the church, any intellectually honest person knows they are completely separate topics.

The OP was solely about interpreting the Bible and the historical context.

---

Anyone who doesn't believe in the deity of Christ is not a Christian and is not intellectually honest about being one.

---

I agree with you - I never said that was the case? I personally know many people (including myself and my wife) who have deconstructed from fundamental Christianity and still view Christ as a deity.

---

Interesting choice of words, "a deity". Are there other deities?

Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

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BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

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Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Ursus Americanus said:

---

BaylorJacket said:

---

Ursus Americanus said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Deconstructing is a misleading term. We used to more precisely call it apostacy.

---

They like to make it sound as if they were the victims of their upbringing typically, that some mega church or youth group cliches they endured made the person, work, and worth of Christ and church history invalid.

Because you know, reasons of a secular progressive lens that usually have next to nothing to do with the gospel itself.

---

While I am sure there are people who mistakenly use the term deconstructing when referring to addressing personal issues with the church, any intellectually honest person knows they are completely separate topics.

The OP was solely about interpreting the Bible and the historical context.

---

Anyone who doesn't believe in the deity of Christ is not a Christian and is not intellectually honest about being one.

---

I agree with you - I never said that was the case? I personally know many people (including myself and my wife) who have deconstructed from fundamental Christianity and still view Christ as a deity.

---

You gave credence to the idea Christ was not Christ at all.

"Historical Jesus - Scholars and theologians who have dedicated their lives to studying Jesus now are quite certain that Jesus believed and taught Apocalypticism, and did not even consider himself to be God. This obviously does not mesh well with fundamental Christian teaching."

Why would you do that?

---

The purpose of the original post was to open the door for discussion on these topics, I did not state any opinions (besides things like evolution being obviously true)

I still have not had the time to research much about Apocalypticism and whether or not Jesus himself claimed to be God during his mission. Nonetheless, it is interesting what conclusions secular and theist scholars have come to.

---

If you open the discussion about the validity of deity of Christ you are apostatizing from the Christian faith, there's no way to finesse it as otherwise.

There is no Christianity if He's not the God-man messiah, and all subsequent efforts to pretend Christianity has any value apart from that are a mockery.

So if you know anyone claiming to be "Christian" that entertains that Christ is not Christ, they are not Christians.

And I'm not really interested in the sophistry of non Christians about what they think Christianity should be.

---

I believe you are perhaps misinterpreting what I wrote - on the topic I referred to scholars are debating whether or not Jesus himself believed he was God, not whether he was God or not.

You obviously cannot prove if someone was God, at the end of the day that is a faith decision

Again - I am not stating this is my belief, and would guess this is a view held by a minority of those deconstructing.

---

I am not interested in the sophistry of non believers claiming scholarship about Christianity, and it is of no value or edification to Christianity to give their sophistry an audience.

If someone doubts their faith for a season and returns that is one thing, but if someone recasts a set of beliefs in their own image and cites non Christians as their sources, then tries to market this Frankensteined belief system of moralism and cherry picked beliefs as Christianity, then no, they are not deconstructing or reconstructing or anything in between, they are simply apostate.

It's straight forward stuff.

And if someone is questioning whether or not Christ thought He was Christ then they are questioning His deity, you can't torture language enough to spin that as otherwise.

---

I respectfully disagree, but thank you for providing your perspective.

---

You can't deny the deity of Christ and be a Christian, there's no room for disagreement, respectful or otherwise.

So entertaining a sophist's arguments that He didn't believe He was divine and therefore not even Christ at all is a grave disrespect to Christianity itself if one is going to insist that is valid position for a professing Christian to have.

---

Per my last email, that was not what I said.

I am not questioning Christ's divinity, instead of if Christ knew of his divinity while on earth. If you are uncomfortable looking into these topics, I completely understand.

---

And I am telling you in no uncertain terms there is no edification in entertaining people that do as you have done.

I am not uncomfortable looking into these topics, I just am not impressed by your pseudo intellectual attempts to pretend you can be winsome about being apostate.

Asking "Hey, what if God didn't know He was God?" isn't a Christian belief, and serves zero value to the gospel or the kingdom, in fact it's heretical.

---

I have not stated an opinion on the matter, nor tried to even provide evidence. You cherry picked one vague statement on the OP and are making blanket statements about those deconstructing.

You obviously have a clear and negative opinion on the topic of Deconstruction.

Again, the sole purpose of the OP was to simply and respectfully discuss these topics, if you are not interested in that there are plenty of other religious posts.

---

The fact you would even give the apostasy of Christ ignorant of or questioning His own deity an audience as if it were a serious consideration for a professing Christian to incorporate says all anyone needs to know.

It's sophistry, heretical sophistry, and Christians don't entertain that.

---

Hey Brother. You've made your point. Consider dialing it back a notch or two