First, I feel guilty criticizing churches. At best, it feels a little ******y and at worst it has divided nations and led to civil wars. That being said, the TDS gets old, so curious everyone's thoughts. I am also convicted by a friend's post about Bonhoeffer's Cost of Discipleship and his concept of cheap grace.

My family has found a great church home in many ways. It is the stereotypical, suburban video-franchise church and follows the usual evangelical accoutrements - it's right out of the Evangelical Playbook.

That being said, here are things that we really like about the church that may not be consistent with other cookie-cutter churches we have attended.
1. Worship - yes, same silly rock band and four singers jumping, but the "band" does repeat songs regularly so we can get to know some modern worship songs
2. Politics - the church is from a party perspective apolitical and is theologically orthodox but does put a lot of effort into mission (domestic and international), reconciliation, and justice
3. The Pastor is a gifted preacher that shares genuine messages that move our hearts

My complaints ... forgive if simple minded ...

1. I am not a fan of the video-franchise church; I think the NT "church planting" model is preferred for myriad reasons (happy to discuss in more detail if anyone cares)

2. The church is hyper-individualistic ... communion - which to its credit is done more frequently than many evangelical churches - is done in individual packets ... sort of defeats the spirit of communion

3. The church really promotes online service - this is great for folks that are homebound or traveling, but I think the message should be "find a local church home and watch us too for extra, mid-week support"

4. The church cancelled service the Sunday before and after Christmas ... I appreciate the burden Christmas and Easter can be on the staff, but this is a large church with multiple campuses and staff members to support ... some folks rely on weekly service for support and community

Not unique to this church, but I do wish there was more of an order of worship to evangelical churches like the old SBC ... I mean we did not even read the Christmas Story during the Christmas service.

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

Sounds like the Church I go to

And with the same positives and negatives

The communion condiment packet thing we do is particularly funny

I've heard of the packets and wondered if we would serve them at some point. Not yet. Is that a result of Covid?

Redbrickbear said:

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Sounds like the Church I go to

And with the same positives and negatives

The communion condiment packet thing we do is particularly funny

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LOL. Literally the same ones ...

I just kind of want to ask ... you know what "communion" means in the Greek, right? LOL.

What's weird too is the church offers each week to anyone that wants to talk it solo ... I'm sort of like, did anyone here go to seminary?

Not the biggest fan of the satellite thing either though my church has that and we attend the satellite.

Our campus is in the far suburbs. We have a pretty young congregation as housing is a bit more affordable out here.

The info I have is that our campus doesn't support itself financially. Lots of young people haven't started consistently tithing. The main campus provides some financial support. It may be a necessary part of the satellite model. Still, I'd be surprised if there was ever a clean break. I suspect are some economies of scale with the satellite model.

I never thought I'd be attending a "megachurch." But it was nearby and provided so many great activities for our kids. Sure there are some downsides but there are a ton of positives. Love our church and our pastor.

I think as long as the Word is being taught that every church serves a purpose. Some are drawn to the really small church, some to the megachurch and some to churches in between. Whichever church will attract someone and get them to grow closer to Christ is the church I like.

Ripping a church that does preach the Word because it doesn't fit your view of the ideal church is more a reflection of you rather than the church.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Sounds like the Church I go to

And with the same positives and negatives

The communion condiment packet thing we do is particularly funny

---

LOL. Literally the same ones ...

I just kind of want to ask ... you know what "communion" means in the Greek, right? LOL.

What's weird too is the church offers each week to anyone that wants to talk it solo ... I'm sort of like, did anyone here go to seminary?

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Also funny because it was an early job/task of the Deacons to literally guard the doors to the Church building and not admit people to communion who were not authorized to partake

[The fourth-century Apostolic Constitutions instruct deacons to guard the door during the service and to maintain order among those attending the services.]

midgett said:

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Ripping a church that does preach the Word because it doesn't fit your view of the ideal church is more a reflection of you rather than the church.

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1. You're correct.
2. I think "ripping" is a little snowflake for wanting a discussion about orthopraxy.

Maybe a question for you I would pose is ... church plants have required financial support from the mother church since Acts.

Why do you think churches moved away from planting churches to franchises? Do you think this better serves the body?

Harrison Bergeron said:

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midgett said:

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Ripping a church that does preach the Word because it doesn't fit your view of the ideal church is more a reflection of you rather than the church.

---

1. You're correct.
2. I think "ripping" is a little snowflake for wanting a discussion about orthopraxy.

Maybe a question for you I would pose is ... church plants have required financial support from the mother church since Acts.

Why do you think churches moved away from planting churches to franchises? Do you think this better serves the body?

---

The correct answer for me is I don't know.

I know our church has done several church plants. So we've done both.

Some speculation on satellites. I have been amazed and almost dumbfounded when I hear how far members drive to the main campus. We had a member who drove 100 miles each way every week! There's a possibility the church sees where members are living and feel like it's a better way to serve.

I remember when the satellite I'm at was initiated. I silently chuckled at the proposed size. Way too big. Um, now I wonder why they didn't think bigger!

I will also add I'm not a fan of a satellite that pipes in the pastor of the main campus. Each should have their own pastor and ministers.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

"Innovation" is agnostic.

Innovation can be positive or negative for the Church.

midgett said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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midgett said:

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Ripping a church that does preach the Word because it doesn't fit your view of the ideal church is more a reflection of you rather than the church.

---

1. You're correct.
2. I think "ripping" is a little snowflake for wanting a discussion about orthopraxy.

Maybe a question for you I would pose is ... church plants have required financial support from the mother church since Acts.

Why do you think churches moved away from planting churches to franchises? Do you think this better serves the body?

---

The correct answer for me is I don't know.

I know our church has done several church plants. So we've done both.

Some speculation on satellites. I have been amazed and almost dumbfounded when I hear how far members drive to the main campus. We had a member who drove 100 miles each way every week! There's a possibility the church sees where members are living and feel like it's a better way to serve.

I remember when the satellite I'm at was initiated. I silently chuckled at the proposed size. Way too big. Um, now I wonder why they didn't think bigger!

I will also add I'm not a fan of a satellite that pipes in the pastor of the main campus. Each should have their own pastor and ministers.

---

Neither do I. Evangelical churches have become brands, and people are attracted to church brands just like soda brands, car brands, or technology brands. Heck, our church has multiple selfie stations so people can 'gram their attendance and promote the brand.

I think that is the tension: the value the brand has to bring the unchurched to Christ vs. the "cheap grace" of many thin evangelical churches.

Here's a weird get off my yard, old man sidetrack ... this is a church where on Sundays most folks dress at best like they're going to the golf course at worse going to the beach. But why do folks dress up for Christmas? What one wears matters or it does not ... so either dress sloppy every service or dress up every service.

I couldnt go to one of these evangelical mega churches with a coffee shop and smalll groups and all that. My wife was raised catholic and I grew up in FBC Dallas but we met in the middle and we are anglican. I love my church and the service is traditional with the Nicene creed, we have common cup communion etc. Its my fav church ive ever gone to so that is a good thing.

Do evangelicals have closed communion?

Waco1947 said:

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Do evangelicals have closed communion?

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Groups like Chirch of Christ or Primitive Baptist are about the only ones who still do that.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

Quote:

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I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

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Exactly.

The fundamental issue is that a church service isn't supposed to be an exercise in evangelism. It is supposed to be a worship service for the already evangelized. God is the audience, not the people in the pews. The liturgy of the first millenum came from that point of view.

There's a very good website that chronicles the sorts of absurdities you end up with when you embrace innovation.

http://www.protestia.com

muddybrazos said:

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I couldnt go to one of these evangelical mega churches with a coffee shop and smalll groups and all that. My wife was raised catholic and I grew up in FBC Dallas but we met in the middle and we are anglican. I love my church and the service is traditional with the Nicene creed, we have common cup communion etc. Its my fav church ive ever gone to so that is a good thing.

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Christ Church in Plano?

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

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Exactly.

The fundamental issue is that a church service isn't supposed to be an exercise in evangelism. It is supposed to be a worship service for the already evangelized. God is the audience, not the people in the pews. The liturgy of the first millenum came from that point of view.

There's a very good website that chronicles the sorts of absurdities you end up with when you embrace innovation.

http://www.protestia.com

---

Of course the first article was about Methodists having a Christmas drag church.

Not sure what is behind the Methodists' obsession with grooming kids.

We visited a local Methodist church, the focus was more on cockzuckers and butt pirates than the Gospel.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

---

Exactly.

The fundamental issue is that a church service isn't supposed to be an exercise in evangelism. It is supposed to be a worship service for the already evangelized. God is the audience, not the people in the pews. The liturgy of the first millenum came from that point of view.

There's a very good website that chronicles the sorts of absurdities you end up with when you embrace innovation.

http://www.protestia.com

---

Of course the first article was about Methodists having a Christmas drag church.

Not sure what is behind the Methodists' obsession with grooming kids.

We visited a local Methodist church, the focus was more on cockzuckers and butt pirates than the Gospel.

---

Just like all the other mainline Protestant Churches the Methodist Church has now split along social-cultural-moral lines

The United Methodist Church is continuing on the path of uber progressive ideology....while the conservatives have left to start the new Global Methodist Church with the congregations in Africa and Latin America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Methodist_Church

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist_Church

muddybrazos said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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muddybrazos said:

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I couldnt go to one of these evangelical mega churches with a coffee shop and smalll groups and all that. My wife was raised catholic and I grew up in FBC Dallas but we met in the middle and we are anglican. I love my church and the service is traditional with the Nicene creed, we have common cup communion etc. Its my fav church ive ever gone to so that is a good thing.

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Christ Church in Plano?

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I actually went to that one my last time in Dallas and will probably be there Sunday. I really do like that church a lot. I go to Christ Church Anglican in Mount Pleasant, SC.

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We went there a long time - great church.

muddybrazos said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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muddybrazos said:

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I couldnt go to one of these evangelical mega churches with a coffee shop and smalll groups and all that. My wife was raised catholic and I grew up in FBC Dallas but we met in the middle and we are anglican. I love my church and the service is traditional with the Nicene creed, we have common cup communion etc. Its my fav church ive ever gone to so that is a good thing.

---

Christ Church in Plano?

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I actually went to that one my last time in Dallas and will probably be there Sunday. I really do like that church a lot. I go to Christ Church Anglican in Mount Pleasant, SC.

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We went there a long time - great church.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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muddybrazos said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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muddybrazos said:

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I couldnt go to one of these evangelical mega churches with a coffee shop and smalll groups and all that. My wife was raised catholic and I grew up in FBC Dallas but we met in the middle and we are anglican. I love my church and the service is traditional with the Nicene creed, we have common cup communion etc. Its my fav church ive ever gone to so that is a good thing.

---

Christ Church in Plano?

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I actually went to that one my last time in Dallas and will probably be there Sunday. I really do like that church a lot. I go to Christ Church Anglican in Mount Pleasant, SC.

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We went there a long time - great church.

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Agreed, its a really pretty church and the music sounds great in there. If I lived in Dallas we would most likely go there. I enjoy going there when we are in town and I enjoy the Anglican service bc its basically exactly the same as my church here.

Everyone attends their church of choice for different reasons. I may have a bit of get off my lawn syndrome as I just can't do Mega Churches or the preacher man/woman on a video screen. I don't much care for rock bands (the 3 chord praise tunes are just terrible) and lattes. We go to a traditional Presbyterian church . Just like the people all together.

Redbrickbear said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

---

Exactly.

The fundamental issue is that a church service isn't supposed to be an exercise in evangelism. It is supposed to be a worship service for the already evangelized. God is the audience, not the people in the pews. The liturgy of the first millenum came from that point of view.

There's a very good website that chronicles the sorts of absurdities you end up with when you embrace innovation.

http://www.protestia.com

---

Of course the first article was about Methodists having a Christmas drag church.

Not sure what is behind the Methodists' obsession with grooming kids.

We visited a local Methodist church, the focus was more on cockzuckers and butt pirates than the Gospel.

---

Just like all the other mainline Protestant Churches the Methodist Church has now split along social-cultural-moral lines

The United Methodist Church is continuing on the path of uber progressive ideology....while the conservatives have left to start the new Global Methodist Church with the congregations in Africa and Latin America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Methodist_Church

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist_Church

---

It's a shame that mainline Protestant Churches let politics trump the Gospel and became so obsessed with the Culture Wars they would allow long-term damage to the Body. Many mainline churches are little more than social clubs for LWNJ extremists and related special interest groups.

…

The goal of Course is to rot the church from within. Eventually it burns itself out but can take generations.

Time of Noah got down to 1 family. So we have a ways to go if more people don't push back

Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Do you really need to ask? You know.

Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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First, I feel guilty criticizing churches. At best, it feels a little ******y and at worst it has divided nations and led to civil wars. That being said, the TDS gets old, so curious everyone's thoughts. I am also convicted by a friend's post about Bonhoeffer's Cost of Discipleship and his concept of cheap grace.

My family has found a great church home in many ways. It is the stereotypical, suburban video-franchise church and follows the usual evangelical accoutrements - it's right out of the Evangelical Playbook.

That being said, here are things that we really like about the church that may not be consistent with other cookie-cutter churches we have attended.
1. Worship - yes, same silly rock band and four singers jumping, but the "band" does repeat songs regularly so we can get to know some modern worship songs
2. Politics - the church is from a party perspective apolitical and is theologically orthodox but does put a lot of effort into mission (domestic and international), reconciliation, and justice
3. The Pastor is a gifted preacher that shares genuine messages that move our hearts

My complaints ... forgive if simple minded ...

1. I am not a fan of the video-franchise church; I think the NT "church planting" model is preferred for myriad reasons (happy to discuss in more detail if anyone cares)

2. The church is hyper-individualistic ... communion - which to its credit is done more frequently than many evangelical churches - is done in individual packets ... sort of defeats the spirit of communion

3. The church really promotes online service - this is great for folks that are homebound or traveling, but I think the message should be "find a local church home and watch us too for extra, mid-week support"

4. The church cancelled service the Sunday before and after Christmas ... I appreciate the burden Christmas and Easter can be on the staff, but this is a large church with multiple campuses and staff members to support ... some folks rely on weekly service for support and community

Not unique to this church, but I do wish there was more of an order of worship to evangelical churches like the old SBC ... I mean we did not even read the Christmas Story during the Christmas service.

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

What is video franchise church? I'm not familiar with the term

More should stick with Acts and the first century church. We don't need to drift away like the Pharisees for gosh sakes.

The early Christians and the Bible itself gave Christians considerable leeway on what a church should be, and they varied greatly by region and over time.

I don't think Jesus would be nearly as judgmental of various churches as many of us are today.

Based upon New Testament (mostly Acts) descriptions of churches, the keys as I understand it are (1) scripture focus, (2) fellowship among members, (3) serving each other and your community, and (4) witnessing/expanding membership.

Everything else is negotiable, including whether the music is led by an old church lady with an awful voice or tattoo'd electric guitarists . . . .

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Anyway, curious everyone's thoughts ... realize much of worship since the Psalms is man-made and we all have opinions. Wish there was a way to keep the best of innovation and the best of the past.

---

Orthopraxy has entered the chat.

Innovation *is* the problem. There is no best of it. What you end up in is a perpeual cycle cultural compromise in which the faith once delivered to the saints is diluted to the point of becoming moralistic therapeutic deism.

Ask yourself, if Saint Paul was to walk into your service, would he recognize the worship portion of the service as a Christian? The communion service at all? Or would he think he was in some pagan temple on Mars Hill?

---

What would St. Paul think of the innovation of bowing to and kissing images, and praying to people other than God and Jesus?

---

What are examples of praying to people other than God or Jesus?

---

Quote:

---

Personally I generally think when we get our judgement God will say "I made it so easy and yet y'all complicated all of it"

I'd prefer to try to follow in the footsteps of those that walked with Jesus and founded the early church than guess at some "innovations" that were come up with 1000 or more years after Jesus walked the earth.

Now if innovation means how best to try to bring people to Christ, we'll, we all know Jesus himself was a huge innovator for his day as it is written.

---

If this is what you believe, then you most certainly should reject the teaching of icon veneration by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, among many others, like praying to Mary and the saints.

---

Why would praying to the mother of God be an issue or praying to a saint when you'd ask your lowly mortal beer buddy to pray for a sick relative? That's an odd take. Good luck.