Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBearWe are not floating in a sea of uncertainty as you're making it out to be. We can know if we're lying to ourselves, and sometimes it takes other people to reveal that to us. We each know what we really believe, if we are honest with ourselves. said:

---

Quote:

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Quote:

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You just said before that they might not realize it at the time.

---

Right, because they're deceiving themselves. Only later do they realize it.

---

Or something happens to them.

As the learned scholar Mike Tyson once said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

You could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

If something happens to them and it causes them to unbelieve, then what happened brought their self-deception to light. That's why sometimes those bad things that happen are actually good.

The truth of Jesus doesn't depend on what happens in one's life. If you believe that it did, that it really was that tenuous, then your belief in it was self-deception.

It's not rare for a believer to be "punched in the mouth" and have their faith shaken. But if they are a true believer, it's only shaken, it doesn't fall (Psalm 37:22-23).

---

Sure, but again it sometimes is only with human hindsight that this may be revealed.

Again, you could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

Whether it's revealed by hindsight or not, or whether I'm personally deceiving myself right now or not, really doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a true believer can't really ever "unbelieve", any more than someone can "unsee" color after one has already seen it.

---

We base our faith on a conviction of things unseen. There is no seeing color. Anything tangible cannot be compared to faith.

Faith is confidence in what we hope for. You hope and have confidence that you will be saved. But by your own statement you could be deceiving yourself right now but as humans we don't know if you are what you consider a "true believer" without the gift of hindsight.

---

You're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative.

The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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90sBearWe are not floating in a sea of uncertainty as you're making it out to be. We can know if we're lying to ourselves, and sometimes it takes other people to reveal that to us. We each know what we really believe, if we are honest with ourselves. said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You just said before that they might not realize it at the time.

---

Right, because they're deceiving themselves. Only later do they realize it.

---

Or something happens to them.

As the learned scholar Mike Tyson once said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

You could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

If something happens to them and it causes them to unbelieve, then what happened brought their self-deception to light. That's why sometimes those bad things that happen are actually good.

The truth of Jesus doesn't depend on what happens in one's life. If you believe that it did, that it really was that tenuous, then your belief in it was self-deception.

It's not rare for a believer to be "punched in the mouth" and have their faith shaken. But if they are a true believer, it's only shaken, it doesn't fall (Psalm 37:22-23).

---

Sure, but again it sometimes is only with human hindsight that this may be revealed.

Again, you could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

Whether it's revealed by hindsight or not, or whether I'm personally deceiving myself right now or not, really doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a true believer can't really ever "unbelieve", any more than someone can "unsee" color after one has already seen it.

---

We base our faith on a conviction of things unseen. There is no seeing color. Anything tangible cannot be compared to faith.

Faith is confidence in what we hope for. You hope and have confidence that you will be saved. But by your own statement you could be deceiving yourself right now but as humans we don't know if you are what you consider a "true believer" without the gift of hindsight.

---

You're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative.

The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBearWe are not floating in a sea of uncertainty as you're making it out to be. We can know if we're lying to ourselves, and sometimes it takes other people to reveal that to us. We each know what we really believe, if we are honest with ourselves. said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You just said before that they might not realize it at the time.

---

Right, because they're deceiving themselves. Only later do they realize it.

---

Or something happens to them.

As the learned scholar Mike Tyson once said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

You could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

If something happens to them and it causes them to unbelieve, then what happened brought their self-deception to light. That's why sometimes those bad things that happen are actually good.

The truth of Jesus doesn't depend on what happens in one's life. If you believe that it did, that it really was that tenuous, then your belief in it was self-deception.

It's not rare for a believer to be "punched in the mouth" and have their faith shaken. But if they are a true believer, it's only shaken, it doesn't fall (Psalm 37:22-23).

---

Sure, but again it sometimes is only with human hindsight that this may be revealed.

Again, you could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

Whether it's revealed by hindsight or not, or whether I'm personally deceiving myself right now or not, really doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a true believer can't really ever "unbelieve", any more than someone can "unsee" color after one has already seen it.

---

We base our faith on a conviction of things unseen. There is no seeing color. Anything tangible cannot be compared to faith.

Faith is confidence in what we hope for. You hope and have confidence that you will be saved. But by your own statement you could be deceiving yourself right now but as humans we don't know if you are what you consider a "true believer" without the gift of hindsight.

---

You're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative.

The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBearWe are not floating in a sea of uncertainty as you're making it out to be. We can know if we're lying to ourselves, and sometimes it takes other people to reveal that to us. We each know what we really believe, if we are honest with ourselves. said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You just said before that they might not realize it at the time.

---

Right, because they're deceiving themselves. Only later do they realize it.

---

Or something happens to them.

As the learned scholar Mike Tyson once said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

You could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

If something happens to them and it causes them to unbelieve, then what happened brought their self-deception to light. That's why sometimes those bad things that happen are actually good.

The truth of Jesus doesn't depend on what happens in one's life. If you believe that it did, that it really was that tenuous, then your belief in it was self-deception.

It's not rare for a believer to be "punched in the mouth" and have their faith shaken. But if they are a true believer, it's only shaken, it doesn't fall (Psalm 37:22-23).

---

Sure, but again it sometimes is only with human hindsight that this may be revealed.

Again, you could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

Whether it's revealed by hindsight or not, or whether I'm personally deceiving myself right now or not, really doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a true believer can't really ever "unbelieve", any more than someone can "unsee" color after one has already seen it.

---

We base our faith on a conviction of things unseen. There is no seeing color. Anything tangible cannot be compared to faith.

Faith is confidence in what we hope for. You hope and have confidence that you will be saved. But by your own statement you could be deceiving yourself right now but as humans we don't know if you are what you consider a "true believer" without the gift of hindsight.

---

You're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative.

The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBearWe are not floating in a sea of uncertainty as you're making it out to be. We can know if we're lying to ourselves, and sometimes it takes other people to reveal that to us. We each know what we really believe, if we are honest with ourselves. said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You just said before that they might not realize it at the time.

---

Right, because they're deceiving themselves. Only later do they realize it.

---

Or something happens to them.

As the learned scholar Mike Tyson once said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

You could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

If something happens to them and it causes them to unbelieve, then what happened brought their self-deception to light. That's why sometimes those bad things that happen are actually good.

The truth of Jesus doesn't depend on what happens in one's life. If you believe that it did, that it really was that tenuous, then your belief in it was self-deception.

It's not rare for a believer to be "punched in the mouth" and have their faith shaken. But if they are a true believer, it's only shaken, it doesn't fall (Psalm 37:22-23).

---

Sure, but again it sometimes is only with human hindsight that this may be revealed.

Again, you could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

Whether it's revealed by hindsight or not, or whether I'm personally deceiving myself right now or not, really doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a true believer can't really ever "unbelieve", any more than someone can "unsee" color after one has already seen it.

---

We base our faith on a conviction of things unseen. There is no seeing color. Anything tangible cannot be compared to faith.

Faith is confidence in what we hope for. You hope and have confidence that you will be saved. But by your own statement you could be deceiving yourself right now but as humans we don't know if you are what you consider a "true believer" without the gift of hindsight.

---

You're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative.

The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Thanks. I thought so.

So, even after Christians put their faith in Christ, repent of their sins, and accept his forgiveness (thereby becoming Christians), if they commit a sin and fail to repent of it they are going to hell for eternity.

Again, not only is such a belief incredibly anxiety-producing for the believer, who you have acknowledged will continue to sin on multiple occasions on a daily basis ever after he becomes a Christian, but it is also unbiblical. With respect to the anxiety-producing aspect, you just never will know if you've repented of every action (or thought) you've had that could be sinful. I suppose under your faith, one must repent on an almost minute by minute (and perhaps second by second) basis just to make sure if a blood vessel pops, or a car hits you, you're not doomed for eternity.

Brother, that is just not a position consistent with any of the NT writers' words. Even the verses you cite above lack context, and don't support the position you've taken. In Matt 5, Jesus is talking to His listeners how the righteousness of their spiritual leaders, the scribes and Pharisees, is not enough to earn heaven. They superficially obey and teach the law of Moses without any kind of heart-change. Jesus is teaching God's intent behind the commandments of the law. In particular, Christ is pointing out that unrighteous attitudes and thoughts, while not exactly the same as unrighteous actions, are just as much worthy to be labelled as sins. He is not talking about His followers in those verses.

Salvation is, and always will be, a free gift that saves us from condemnation.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBearWe are not floating in a sea of uncertainty as you're making it out to be. We can know if we're lying to ourselves, and sometimes it takes other people to reveal that to us. We each know what we really believe, if we are honest with ourselves. said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You just said before that they might not realize it at the time.

---

Right, because they're deceiving themselves. Only later do they realize it.

---

Or something happens to them.

As the learned scholar Mike Tyson once said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

You could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

If something happens to them and it causes them to unbelieve, then what happened brought their self-deception to light. That's why sometimes those bad things that happen are actually good.

The truth of Jesus doesn't depend on what happens in one's life. If you believe that it did, that it really was that tenuous, then your belief in it was self-deception.

It's not rare for a believer to be "punched in the mouth" and have their faith shaken. But if they are a true believer, it's only shaken, it doesn't fall (Psalm 37:22-23).

---

Sure, but again it sometimes is only with human hindsight that this may be revealed.

Again, you could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

Whether it's revealed by hindsight or not, or whether I'm personally deceiving myself right now or not, really doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a true believer can't really ever "unbelieve", any more than someone can "unsee" color after one has already seen it.

---

We base our faith on a conviction of things unseen. There is no seeing color. Anything tangible cannot be compared to faith.

Faith is confidence in what we hope for. You hope and have confidence that you will be saved. But by your own statement you could be deceiving yourself right now but as humans we don't know if you are what you consider a "true believer" without the gift of hindsight.

---

You're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative.

The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Thanks. I thought so.

So, even after Christians put their faith in Christ, repent of their sins, and accept his forgiveness (thereby becoming Christians), if they commit a sin and fail to repent of it they are going to hell for eternity.

Again, not only is such a belief incredibly anxiety-producing for the believer, who you have acknowledged will continue to sin on multiple occasions on a daily basis ever after he becomes a Christian, but it is also unbiblical. With respect to the anxiety-producing aspect, you just never will know if you've repented of every action (or thought) you've had that could be sinful. I suppose under your faith, one must repent on an almost minute by minute (and perhaps second by second) basis just to make sure if a blood vessel pops, or a car hits you, you're not doomed for eternity.

Brother, that is just not a position consistent with any of the NT writers' words. Even the verses you cite above lack context, and don't support the position you've taken. In Matt 5, Jesus is talking to His listeners how the righteousness of their spiritual leaders, the scribes and Pharisees, is not enough to earn heaven. They superficially obey and teach the law of Moses without any kind of heart-change. Jesus is teaching God's intent behind the commandments of the law. In particular, Christ is pointing out that unrighteous attitudes and thoughts, while not exactly the same as unrighteous actions, are just as much worthy to be labelled as sins. He is not talking about His followers in those verses.

Salvation is, and always will be, a free gift that saves us from condemnation.

---

He is talking directly to his followers, and by extension to you and to me. "Jesus, when he saw how great was their number, went up on to the mountain-side; there he sat down, and his disciples came about him. And he began speaking to them; this was the teaching he gave." Matthew 5:1-2

Catholics don't have to worry about actions or thoughts that we're unaware of. We examine our consciences before confession and do the best we can. If we remember something later, we confess it next time. Hopefully we're not committing a mortal sin every minute.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90sBearWe are not floating in a sea of uncertainty as you're making it out to be. We can know if we're lying to ourselves, and sometimes it takes other people to reveal that to us. We each know what we really believe, if we are honest with ourselves. said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You just said before that they might not realize it at the time.

---

Right, because they're deceiving themselves. Only later do they realize it.

---

Or something happens to them.

As the learned scholar Mike Tyson once said, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

You could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

If something happens to them and it causes them to unbelieve, then what happened brought their self-deception to light. That's why sometimes those bad things that happen are actually good.

The truth of Jesus doesn't depend on what happens in one's life. If you believe that it did, that it really was that tenuous, then your belief in it was self-deception.

It's not rare for a believer to be "punched in the mouth" and have their faith shaken. But if they are a true believer, it's only shaken, it doesn't fall (Psalm 37:22-23).

---

Sure, but again it sometimes is only with human hindsight that this may be revealed.

Again, you could be deceiving yourself right now and just haven't been spiritually punched in the mouth yet.

---

Whether it's revealed by hindsight or not, or whether I'm personally deceiving myself right now or not, really doesn't have anything to do with the fact that a true believer can't really ever "unbelieve", any more than someone can "unsee" color after one has already seen it.

---

We base our faith on a conviction of things unseen. There is no seeing color. Anything tangible cannot be compared to faith.

Faith is confidence in what we hope for. You hope and have confidence that you will be saved. But by your own statement you could be deceiving yourself right now but as humans we don't know if you are what you consider a "true believer" without the gift of hindsight.

---

You're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative.

The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Thanks. I thought so.

So, even after Christians put their faith in Christ, repent of their sins, and accept his forgiveness (thereby becoming Christians), if they commit a sin and fail to repent of it they are going to hell for eternity.

Again, not only is such a belief incredibly anxiety-producing for the believer, who you have acknowledged will continue to sin on multiple occasions on a daily basis ever after he becomes a Christian, but it is also unbiblical. With respect to the anxiety-producing aspect, you just never will know if you've repented of every action (or thought) you've had that could be sinful. I suppose under your faith, one must repent on an almost minute by minute (and perhaps second by second) basis just to make sure if a blood vessel pops, or a car hits you, you're not doomed for eternity.

Brother, that is just not a position consistent with any of the NT writers' words. Even the verses you cite above lack context, and don't support the position you've taken. In Matt 5, Jesus is talking to His listeners how the righteousness of their spiritual leaders, the scribes and Pharisees, is not enough to earn heaven. They superficially obey and teach the law of Moses without any kind of heart-change. Jesus is teaching God's intent behind the commandments of the law. In particular, Christ is pointing out that unrighteous attitudes and thoughts, while not exactly the same as unrighteous actions, are just as much worthy to be labelled as sins. He is not talking about His followers in those verses.

Salvation is, and always will be, a free gift that saves us from condemnation.

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He is talking directly to his followers, and by extension to you and to me. "Jesus, when he saw how great was their number, went up on to the mountain-side; there he sat down, and his disciples came about him. And he began speaking to them; this was the teaching he gave." Matthew 5:1-2

Catholics don't have to worry about actions or thoughts that we're unaware of. We examine our consciences before confession and do the best we can. If we remember something later, we confess it next time. Hopefully we're not committing a mortal sin every minute.

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This whole concept of a "mortal sin" is pretty suspect for a variety of reasons.

In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

Mothra said:

---

In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

---

I think he was talking to his disciples, like it says in the beginning of the chapter.

I'm not saying you'll be condemned for a sin that you haven't fully understood to be sin. That's why I said earlier that there must be full deliberation and an understanding of its seriousness.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

---

I think he was talking to his disciples, like it says in the beginning of the chapter.

I'm not saying you'll be condemned for a sin that you haven't fully understood to be sin. That's why I said earlier that there must be full deliberation and an understanding of its seriousness.

---

Matt 5 is the Sermon on the Mount. He's talking to most likely thousands of people, many of whom are hearing him for the very first time. While he said the disciples came up, it is unclear if "them" is his disciples or the crowd. Regardless, he realized everyone is within earshot, like a sermon to Jews at a very large church. That is the way Christ taught:

5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Still just not seeing any scriptural support for your last paragraph.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

---

I think he was talking to his disciples, like it says in the beginning of the chapter.

I'm not saying you'll be condemned for a sin that you haven't fully understood to be sin. That's why I said earlier that there must be full deliberation and an understanding of its seriousness.

---

Matt 5 is the Sermon on the Mount. He's talking to most likely thousands of people, many of whom are hearing him for the very first time. While he addresses the disciples, he realized everyone is within earshot, like a sermon to Jews at a very large church. That is the way Christ taught:

5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Still just not seeing any scriptural support for your last paragraph.

---

I don't know how many others he was talking to. All I know is that he was talking to his disciples. My last paragraph is agreeing with you to an extent. With greater knowledge comes greater responsibility.

Scripture is full of passages showing that we must continue in good works in order to be finally justified.

Quote:

---

God is good, and he only. If thou hast a mind to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 12:36-37

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Romans 2:6-7

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. Romans 6:16

So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. Romans 8:12-13

Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22

Every athlete must keep all his appetites under control; and he does it to win a crown that fades, whereas ours is imperishable. So I do not run my course like a man in doubt of his goal; I do not fight my battle like a man who wastes his blows on the air. I buffet my own body, and make it my slave; or I, who have preached to others, may myself be rejected as worthless. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27

Let us not be discouraged, then, over our acts of charity; we shall reap when the time comes, if we persevere in them. Galatians 6:9

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

---

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

---

In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

---

I think he was talking to his disciples, like it says in the beginning of the chapter.

I'm not saying you'll be condemned for a sin that you haven't fully understood to be sin. That's why I said earlier that there must be full deliberation and an understanding of its seriousness.

---

Matt 5 is the Sermon on the Mount. He's talking to most likely thousands of people, many of whom are hearing him for the very first time. While he addresses the disciples, he realized everyone is within earshot, like a sermon to Jews at a very large church. That is the way Christ taught:

5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Still just not seeing any scriptural support for your last paragraph.

---

I don't know how many others he was talking to. All I know is that he was talking to his disciples. My last paragraph is agreeing with you to an extent. With greater knowledge comes greater responsibility.

Scripture is full of passages showing that we must continue in good works in order to be finally justified.

Quote:

---

God is good, and he only. If thou hast a mind to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 12:36-37

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Romans 2:6-7

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. Romans 6:16

So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. Romans 8:12-13

Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22

Every athlete must keep all his appetites under control; and he does it to win a crown that fades, whereas ours is imperishable. So I do not run my course like a man in doubt of his goal; I do not fight my battle like a man who wastes his blows on the air. I buffet my own body, and make it my slave; or I, who have preached to others, may myself be rejected as worthless. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27

Let us not be discouraged, then, over our acts of charity; we shall reap when the time comes, if we persevere in them. Galatians 6:9

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

---

---

I addressed this previously several pages ago. There are two judgments of man, not one. There is a judgment of unbelievers at the Great White Throne spoken of in Revelation and another of believers at the Bema Seat of Christ, to which 2 Corinthians 5 and Romans 14 refer. Unbelievers will be judged regarding their sins, whereas Christians whose names are written in the book of life are spared this judgment. It's the Bema Seat judgment - where rewards are bestowed - by which you will be judged according to our works. Again, none of the verses you reference above mention or suggest that our salvation is dependent on works. Moreover, the idea that they are referring to the first judgment is inconsistent with Christ's words, and all other verses concerning salvation in scripture.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

---

I think he was talking to his disciples, like it says in the beginning of the chapter.

I'm not saying you'll be condemned for a sin that you haven't fully understood to be sin. That's why I said earlier that there must be full deliberation and an understanding of its seriousness.

---

Matt 5 is the Sermon on the Mount. He's talking to most likely thousands of people, many of whom are hearing him for the very first time. While he addresses the disciples, he realized everyone is within earshot, like a sermon to Jews at a very large church. That is the way Christ taught:

5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Still just not seeing any scriptural support for your last paragraph.

---

I don't know how many others he was talking to. All I know is that he was talking to his disciples. My last paragraph is agreeing with you to an extent. With greater knowledge comes greater responsibility.

Scripture is full of passages showing that we must continue in good works in order to be finally justified.

Quote:

---

God is good, and he only. If thou hast a mind to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 12:36-37

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Romans 2:6-7

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. Romans 6:16

So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. Romans 8:12-13

Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22

Every athlete must keep all his appetites under control; and he does it to win a crown that fades, whereas ours is imperishable. So I do not run my course like a man in doubt of his goal; I do not fight my battle like a man who wastes his blows on the air. I buffet my own body, and make it my slave; or I, who have preached to others, may myself be rejected as worthless. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27

Let us not be discouraged, then, over our acts of charity; we shall reap when the time comes, if we persevere in them. Galatians 6:9

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

---

---

I addressed this previously several pages ago. There are two judgments of man, not one. There is a judgment of unbelievers at the Great White Throne spoken of in Revelation and another of believers at the Bema Seat of Christ, to which 2 Corinthians 5 and Romans 14 refer. Unbelievers will be judged regarding their sins, whereas Christians whose names are written in the book of life are spared this judgment. It's the Bema Seat judgment - where rewards are bestowed - by which you will be judged according to our works. Again, none of the verses you reference above mention or suggest that our salvation is dependent on works. Moreover, the idea that they are referring to the first judgment is inconsistent with Christ's words, and all other verses concerning salvation in scripture.

---

I see no scriptural support for that idea. The verses above are addressed to all of us, and they make it clear that the stakes are life and death. The two passages you cite are consistent with that.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

---

I think he was talking to his disciples, like it says in the beginning of the chapter.

I'm not saying you'll be condemned for a sin that you haven't fully understood to be sin. That's why I said earlier that there must be full deliberation and an understanding of its seriousness.

---

Matt 5 is the Sermon on the Mount. He's talking to most likely thousands of people, many of whom are hearing him for the very first time. While he addresses the disciples, he realized everyone is within earshot, like a sermon to Jews at a very large church. That is the way Christ taught:

5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Still just not seeing any scriptural support for your last paragraph.

---

I don't know how many others he was talking to. All I know is that he was talking to his disciples. My last paragraph is agreeing with you to an extent. With greater knowledge comes greater responsibility.

Scripture is full of passages showing that we must continue in good works in order to be finally justified.

Quote:

---

God is good, and he only. If thou hast a mind to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 12:36-37

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Romans 2:6-7

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. Romans 6:16

So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. Romans 8:12-13

Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22

Every athlete must keep all his appetites under control; and he does it to win a crown that fades, whereas ours is imperishable. So I do not run my course like a man in doubt of his goal; I do not fight my battle like a man who wastes his blows on the air. I buffet my own body, and make it my slave; or I, who have preached to others, may myself be rejected as worthless. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27

Let us not be discouraged, then, over our acts of charity; we shall reap when the time comes, if we persevere in them. Galatians 6:9

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

---

---

I addressed this previously several pages ago. There are two judgments of man, not one. There is a judgment of unbelievers at the Great White Throne spoken of in Revelation and another of believers at the Bema Seat of Christ, to which 2 Corinthians 5 and Romans 14 refer. Unbelievers will be judged regarding their sins, whereas Christians whose names are written in the book of life are spared this judgment. It's the Bema Seat judgment - where rewards are bestowed - by which you will be judged according to our works. Again, none of the verses you reference above mention or suggest that our salvation is dependent on works. Moreover, the idea that they are referring to the first judgment is inconsistent with Christ's words, and all other verses concerning salvation in scripture.

---

I see no scriptural support for that idea. The verses above are addressed to all of us, and they make it clear that the stakes are life and death. The two passages you cite are consistent with that.

---

I see no scriptural support for the concept of a mortal sin as distinct from any other sin. Can you point me to that scripture?

D. C. Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

---

I think he was talking to his disciples, like it says in the beginning of the chapter.

I'm not saying you'll be condemned for a sin that you haven't fully understood to be sin. That's why I said earlier that there must be full deliberation and an understanding of its seriousness.

---

Matt 5 is the Sermon on the Mount. He's talking to most likely thousands of people, many of whom are hearing him for the very first time. While he addresses the disciples, he realized everyone is within earshot, like a sermon to Jews at a very large church. That is the way Christ taught:

5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Still just not seeing any scriptural support for your last paragraph.

---

I don't know how many others he was talking to. All I know is that he was talking to his disciples. My last paragraph is agreeing with you to an extent. With greater knowledge comes greater responsibility.

Scripture is full of passages showing that we must continue in good works in order to be finally justified.

Quote:

---

God is good, and he only. If thou hast a mind to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 12:36-37

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Romans 2:6-7

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. Romans 6:16

So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. Romans 8:12-13

Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22

Every athlete must keep all his appetites under control; and he does it to win a crown that fades, whereas ours is imperishable. So I do not run my course like a man in doubt of his goal; I do not fight my battle like a man who wastes his blows on the air. I buffet my own body, and make it my slave; or I, who have preached to others, may myself be rejected as worthless. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27

Let us not be discouraged, then, over our acts of charity; we shall reap when the time comes, if we persevere in them. Galatians 6:9

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

---

---

I addressed this previously several pages ago. There are two judgments of man, not one. There is a judgment of unbelievers at the Great White Throne spoken of in Revelation and another of believers at the Bema Seat of Christ, to which 2 Corinthians 5 and Romans 14 refer. Unbelievers will be judged regarding their sins, whereas Christians whose names are written in the book of life are spared this judgment. It's the Bema Seat judgment - where rewards are bestowed - by which you will be judged according to our works. Again, none of the verses you reference above mention or suggest that our salvation is dependent on works. Moreover, the idea that they are referring to the first judgment is inconsistent with Christ's words, and all other verses concerning salvation in scripture.

---

I see no scriptural support for that idea. The verses above are addressed to all of us, and they make it clear that the stakes are life and death. The two passages you cite are consistent with that.

---

I see no scriptural support for the concept of a mortal sin as distinct from any other sin. Can you point me to that scripture?

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"If a man knows his brother to be guilty, yet not of such a sin as brings death with it, he should pray for him; and, at his request, life will be granted to the brother who is sinning, yet not fatally. There is a sin which kills; it is not over this that I bid him fall to prayer. Sin may be wrong-doing of any kind; not all sin is fatal." 1 John 5:16-17

Sam LowryYou're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative. said:

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The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

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The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

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The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

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Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Look at what else Jesus said: when asked what it takes to have eternal life, Jesus answered "obey the commandments" perfectly. He also said that if your eye causes you to sin, it's better for you to gouge it out because it's better to enter heaven with one eye than to burn in hell.

Do these mean that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law and by our ability to avoid sinning? Should we be gouging out our eyes? No, Jesus said these things before the cross. It was to get people under the old covenant to repent and see their desperate need for a savior, which he had yet to fulfill on the cross and by his future resurrection. The verse you referenced is one of those times. Now that Jesus' work is finished, these verses do not apply today to those under the new covenant of grace through faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam LowryYou're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative. said:

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The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Look at what else Jesus said: when asked what it takes to have eternal life, Jesus answered "obey the commandments" perfectly. He also said that if your eye causes you to sin, it's better for you to gouge it out because it's better to enter heaven with one eye than to burn in hell.

Do these mean that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law and by our ability to avoid sinning? Should we be gouging out our eyes? No, Jesus said these things before the cross. It was to get people under the old covenant to repent and see their desperate need for a savior, which he had yet to fulfill on the cross and by his future resurrection. The verse you referenced is one of those times. Now that Jesus' work is finished, these verses do not apply today to those under the new covenant of grace through faith.

---

Matthew 5:29 was likewise addressed to Jesus' followers. I don't think he spent his years of ministry preaching things that would become at best irrelevant and at worst misleading upon his death.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam LowryYou're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative. said:

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The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Look at what else Jesus said: when asked what it takes to have eternal life, Jesus answered "obey the commandments" perfectly. He also said that if your eye causes you to sin, it's better for you to gouge it out because it's better to enter heaven with one eye than to burn in hell.

Do these mean that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law and by our ability to avoid sinning? Should we be gouging out our eyes? No, Jesus said these things before the cross. It was to get people under the old covenant to repent and see their desperate need for a savior, which he had yet to fulfill on the cross and by his future resurrection. The verse you referenced is one of those times. Now that Jesus' work is finished, these verses do not apply today to those under the new covenant of grace through faith.

---

Matthew 5:29 was likewise addressed to Jesus' followers. I don't think he spent his years of ministry preaching things that would become at best irrelevant and at worst misleading upon his death.

---

Then have you gouged your eye out?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam LowryYou're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative. said:

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The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Look at what else Jesus said: when asked what it takes to have eternal life, Jesus answered "obey the commandments" perfectly. He also said that if your eye causes you to sin, it's better for you to gouge it out because it's better to enter heaven with one eye than to burn in hell.

Do these mean that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law and by our ability to avoid sinning? Should we be gouging out our eyes? No, Jesus said these things before the cross. It was to get people under the old covenant to repent and see their desperate need for a savior, which he had yet to fulfill on the cross and by his future resurrection. The verse you referenced is one of those times. Now that Jesus' work is finished, these verses do not apply today to those under the new covenant of grace through faith.

---

Matthew 5:29 was likewise addressed to Jesus' followers. I don't think he spent his years of ministry preaching things that would become at best irrelevant and at worst misleading upon his death.

---

Then have you gouged your eye out?

---

No, that would be silly. Jesus is using a pattern of hyperbole in this speech. He isn't saying that we should gouge our eyes out, or that we should never sow or reap, or pray in public, or be placed under oath (Jesus himself prayed in public and was under oath when he testified to the high priest).

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam LowryYou're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative. said:

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The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

---

The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

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I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

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You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Look at what else Jesus said: when asked what it takes to have eternal life, Jesus answered "obey the commandments" perfectly. He also said that if your eye causes you to sin, it's better for you to gouge it out because it's better to enter heaven with one eye than to burn in hell.

Do these mean that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law and by our ability to avoid sinning? Should we be gouging out our eyes? No, Jesus said these things before the cross. It was to get people under the old covenant to repent and see their desperate need for a savior, which he had yet to fulfill on the cross and by his future resurrection. The verse you referenced is one of those times. Now that Jesus' work is finished, these verses do not apply today to those under the new covenant of grace through faith.

---

Matthew 5:29 was likewise addressed to Jesus' followers. I don't think he spent his years of ministry preaching things that would become at best irrelevant and at worst misleading upon his death.

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Then have you gouged your eye out?

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No, that would be silly. Jesus is using a pattern of hyperbole in this speech. He isn't saying that we should gouge our eyes out, or that we should never sow or reap, or pray in public, or be placed under oath (Jesus himself prayed in public and was under oath when he testified to the high priest).

---

He's clearly saying that sin from our eyes will send us to Hell, right? And that to have eternal life we must obey the Law perfectly. It means we're all screwed, doesn't it?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam LowryYou're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative. said:

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The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

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The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

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The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

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Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

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When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Look at what else Jesus said: when asked what it takes to have eternal life, Jesus answered "obey the commandments" perfectly. He also said that if your eye causes you to sin, it's better for you to gouge it out because it's better to enter heaven with one eye than to burn in hell.

Do these mean that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law and by our ability to avoid sinning? Should we be gouging out our eyes? No, Jesus said these things before the cross. It was to get people under the old covenant to repent and see their desperate need for a savior, which he had yet to fulfill on the cross and by his future resurrection. The verse you referenced is one of those times. Now that Jesus' work is finished, these verses do not apply today to those under the new covenant of grace through faith.

---

Matthew 5:29 was likewise addressed to Jesus' followers. I don't think he spent his years of ministry preaching things that would become at best irrelevant and at worst misleading upon his death.

---

Then have you gouged your eye out?

---

No, that would be silly. Jesus is using a pattern of hyperbole in this speech. He isn't saying that we should gouge our eyes out, or that we should never sow or reap, or pray in public, or be placed under oath (Jesus himself prayed in public and was under oath when he testified to the high priest).

---

He's clearly saying that sin from our eyes will send us to Hell, right? And that to have eternal life we must obey the Law perfectly. It means we're all screwed, doesn't it?

---

He's saying that he's not here to abolish the law but to bring it to perfection (Matthew 5:17). Not only must we put aside the outward acts of sin, but also the sinfulness in our hearts. We're called to be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees, not less. Without God's grace this is impossible, but with his help we are saved.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam LowryYou're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative. said:

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The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

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The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

---

The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

---

Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

---

When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

---

I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

---

You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

---

If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

---

You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

---

Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

---

So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

---

"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

---

Look at what else Jesus said: when asked what it takes to have eternal life, Jesus answered "obey the commandments" perfectly. He also said that if your eye causes you to sin, it's better for you to gouge it out because it's better to enter heaven with one eye than to burn in hell.

Do these mean that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law and by our ability to avoid sinning? Should we be gouging out our eyes? No, Jesus said these things before the cross. It was to get people under the old covenant to repent and see their desperate need for a savior, which he had yet to fulfill on the cross and by his future resurrection. The verse you referenced is one of those times. Now that Jesus' work is finished, these verses do not apply today to those under the new covenant of grace through faith.

---

Matthew 5:29 was likewise addressed to Jesus' followers. I don't think he spent his years of ministry preaching things that would become at best irrelevant and at worst misleading upon his death.

---

Then have you gouged your eye out?

---

No, that would be silly. Jesus is using a pattern of hyperbole in this speech. He isn't saying that we should gouge our eyes out, or that we should never sow or reap, or pray in public, or be placed under oath (Jesus himself prayed in public and was under oath when he testified to the high priest).

---

He's clearly saying that sin from our eyes will send us to Hell, right? And that to have eternal life we must obey the Law perfectly. It means we're all screwed, doesn't it?

---

He's saying that he's not here to abolish the law but to bring it to perfection (Matthew 5:17). Not only must we put aside the outward acts of sin, but also the sinfulness in our hearts. We're called to be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees, not less. Without God's grace this is impossible, but with his help we are saved.

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Yeah, and he's saying that's how you get saved to eternal life - by obeying the commandments perfectly. Which means we're all screwed. Trouble is, though, it's hard to reconcile that with Jesus saving the thief on the cross and the sinful woman in Luke 8 when clearly they were not more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees.

"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

Sam Lowry said:

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"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

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... and is saying that obedience to the law is what saves us to eternal life, right?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

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... and is saying that obedience to the law is what saves us to eternal life, right?

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No, that's not enough. He's asking more...but he's promising that we can accomplish it, through his grace alone.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

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... and is saying that obedience to the law is what saves us to eternal life, right?

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No, that's not enough. He's asking asking more, but he's promising that we can accomplish it...through his grace alone.

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Right, more, as in perfect obedience to the law. It's how Jesus answered what one must do to inherit eternal life. Nothing about grace or faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

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... and is saying that obedience to the law is what saves us to eternal life, right?

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No, that's not enough. He's asking asking more, but he's promising that we can accomplish it...through his grace alone.

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Right, more, as in perfect obedience to the law. It's how Jesus answered what one must do to inherit eternal life. Nothing about grace or faith.

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He talked about faith and works all the time. This is my point--you can't take one verse out of context from all the rest.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

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... and is saying that obedience to the law is what saves us to eternal life, right?

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No, that's not enough. He's asking asking more, but he's promising that we can accomplish it...through his grace alone.

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Right, more, as in perfect obedience to the law. It's how Jesus answered what one must do to inherit eternal life. Nothing about grace or faith.

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He talked about faith and works all the time. This is my point--you can't take one verse out of context from all the rest.

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Right, but isn't that what you did with the verse that says calling someone a "fool" puts them in Hell fire?

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

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I think he was talking to his disciples, like it says in the beginning of the chapter.

I'm not saying you'll be condemned for a sin that you haven't fully understood to be sin. That's why I said earlier that there must be full deliberation and an understanding of its seriousness.

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Matt 5 is the Sermon on the Mount. He's talking to most likely thousands of people, many of whom are hearing him for the very first time. While he addresses the disciples, he realized everyone is within earshot, like a sermon to Jews at a very large church. That is the way Christ taught:

5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Still just not seeing any scriptural support for your last paragraph.

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I don't know how many others he was talking to. All I know is that he was talking to his disciples. My last paragraph is agreeing with you to an extent. With greater knowledge comes greater responsibility.

Scripture is full of passages showing that we must continue in good works in order to be finally justified.

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God is good, and he only. If thou hast a mind to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 12:36-37

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Romans 2:6-7

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. Romans 6:16

So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. Romans 8:12-13

Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22

Every athlete must keep all his appetites under control; and he does it to win a crown that fades, whereas ours is imperishable. So I do not run my course like a man in doubt of his goal; I do not fight my battle like a man who wastes his blows on the air. I buffet my own body, and make it my slave; or I, who have preached to others, may myself be rejected as worthless. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27

Let us not be discouraged, then, over our acts of charity; we shall reap when the time comes, if we persevere in them. Galatians 6:9

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

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I addressed this previously several pages ago. There are two judgments of man, not one. There is a judgment of unbelievers at the Great White Throne spoken of in Revelation and another of believers at the Bema Seat of Christ, to which 2 Corinthians 5 and Romans 14 refer. Unbelievers will be judged regarding their sins, whereas Christians whose names are written in the book of life are spared this judgment. It's the Bema Seat judgment - where rewards are bestowed - by which you will be judged according to our works. Again, none of the verses you reference above mention or suggest that our salvation is dependent on works. Moreover, the idea that they are referring to the first judgment is inconsistent with Christ's words, and all other verses concerning salvation in scripture.

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I see no scriptural support for that idea. The verses above are addressed to all of us, and they make it clear that the stakes are life and death. The two passages you cite are consistent with that.

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Then it appears your own beliefs conflict with Catholic doctrine, which likewise recognizes that are clearly two sets of judgments:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-are-there-two-judgments

Again, none of the verses you cited state support the idea that works get us to Heaven.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

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... and is saying that obedience to the law is what saves us to eternal life, right?

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No, that's not enough. He's asking asking more, but he's promising that we can accomplish it...through his grace alone.

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Right, more, as in perfect obedience to the law. It's how Jesus answered what one must do to inherit eternal life. Nothing about grace or faith.

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He talked about faith and works all the time. This is my point--you can't take one verse out of context from all the rest.

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Right, but isn't that what you did with the verse that says calling someone a "fool" puts them in Hell fire?

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I don't think so. What context do you think I ignored?

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In Matt 5:24, Christ is talking to people listening to him (not believers, at least not yet) about the law of Moses, and the scribes and Pharisees interpretation of same. Again, he is not making a pronouncement here that those who are saved by Grace will be condemned for saying a harsh word to someone.

As for the rest, you're kind of missing my point. It's not just unrealized sin that you're saying could condemn a man. It's any sin you come to understand as sin, but perhaps haven't yet processed, perhaps even fully-understood to be sin, and repented of, therefore condemning you. Take the example in Matt 5:24, which suggests merely calling someone "a fool" is a mortal sin. The idea that God is going to condemn a man for making such a statement, before he has processed it and had a chance to confess it, just doesn't make sense from a logical or scriptural standpoint.

And DC is correct, the idea there is any mortal sin outside of failing to put one's faith in Christ is a man-made doctrine. It's not a position which finds support in scripture.

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I think he was talking to his disciples, like it says in the beginning of the chapter.

I'm not saying you'll be condemned for a sin that you haven't fully understood to be sin. That's why I said earlier that there must be full deliberation and an understanding of its seriousness.

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Matt 5 is the Sermon on the Mount. He's talking to most likely thousands of people, many of whom are hearing him for the very first time. While he addresses the disciples, he realized everyone is within earshot, like a sermon to Jews at a very large church. That is the way Christ taught:

5:1 "Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Still just not seeing any scriptural support for your last paragraph.

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I don't know how many others he was talking to. All I know is that he was talking to his disciples. My last paragraph is agreeing with you to an extent. With greater knowledge comes greater responsibility.

Scripture is full of passages showing that we must continue in good works in order to be finally justified.

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God is good, and he only. If thou hast a mind to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Matthew 12:36-37

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Romans 2:6-7

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. Romans 6:16

So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. Romans 8:12-13

Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. Romans 11:22

Every athlete must keep all his appetites under control; and he does it to win a crown that fades, whereas ours is imperishable. So I do not run my course like a man in doubt of his goal; I do not fight my battle like a man who wastes his blows on the air. I buffet my own body, and make it my slave; or I, who have preached to others, may myself be rejected as worthless. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27

Let us not be discouraged, then, over our acts of charity; we shall reap when the time comes, if we persevere in them. Galatians 6:9

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24

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I addressed this previously several pages ago. There are two judgments of man, not one. There is a judgment of unbelievers at the Great White Throne spoken of in Revelation and another of believers at the Bema Seat of Christ, to which 2 Corinthians 5 and Romans 14 refer. Unbelievers will be judged regarding their sins, whereas Christians whose names are written in the book of life are spared this judgment. It's the Bema Seat judgment - where rewards are bestowed - by which you will be judged according to our works. Again, none of the verses you reference above mention or suggest that our salvation is dependent on works. Moreover, the idea that they are referring to the first judgment is inconsistent with Christ's words, and all other verses concerning salvation in scripture.

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I see no scriptural support for that idea. The verses above are addressed to all of us, and they make it clear that the stakes are life and death. The two passages you cite are consistent with that.

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Then it appears your own beliefs conflict with Catholic doctrine, which likewise recognizes that are clearly two sets of judgments:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-are-there-two-judgments

Again, none of the verses you cited state support the idea that works get us to Heaven.

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I agree with the linked article. There are two judgments, one particular to the person at the time of death and one universal for all humans at the end of time. Both apply to everyone, not just believers or unbelievers.

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Sam LowryYou're making the same mistake Sam Lowry is making. The color analogy is just an analogy. I'm not making an exact comparison. You even noted this yourself, and now you're going back on it, presumably just to be argumentative. said:

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The fact remains that true believers can't really ever "unbelieve". Your "hindsight" point is just a "what if" scenario, and has nothing to do with this fact.

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The problem is your analogy is explicitly incorrect according to the Bible's definition of faith. In what way is quoting how the Bible defines faith in a discussion on faith just being argumentative?

I understand that your point was not seeing the color but rather the personal and potentially permanent change that came after an event. But it must be clarified that there is no tangible event the way there is when you see a color. If it is faith, it is intangible. And IMO that is an important distinction.

"True believers" as you describe them can't tangibly know if they truly believe and are changed the way they know they saw the color red because there is no tangible aspect to faith.

Again, it is confidence in what we hope for.

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The analogy was not about faith. It was about the unlikelihood of true belief becoming unbelief. If you can't understand the analogy, then make your point relevant by explaining how what you're saying has to do with the fact that a true believer can never really un-believe.

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Belief: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
Again, I think the passage is relevant.

Imagine someone's surprise if they got to the pearly gates and St. Peter said, "Yes, you showed unwavering faith in your life. But what you don't realize is that if your wife had stepped in front of a bus you actually would have gone into a spiral and eventually denied God. Sorry, no heaven for you."

How was this person to ever know they weren't a "True" believer since their wife never stepped in front of a bus?

You seem to equate your use of "True" believer with "Objective knower".

An objective knower can have any number of tests done to determine if they saw the color red. After the fact if they decide they didn't see the color red, a piece of paper can be shown confirming they did.

If someone takes a polygraph (yes I know they aren't scientifically perfect) asking if they believe in God at that moment and they pass, does that confirm they are "True" believers? If not, how were they to know otherwise at that moment?

The challenge is no human objectively knows they are what you call a "True" believer until God says so and we don't when that is. Until then IMO there are no Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers, there are just believers with varying levels of faith.

Just the way some are concerned about believers trying to rely on works to get into heaven, I worry that belief in Annie's Secret Circle of True Believers would lead to a false presumption that they are members.

That's why it is called faith and not fact.

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When you are a true believer, you find yourself running to God everytime you have a problem, like a child runs to his "daddy" (Galatians 4:6 - "Abba" means something like "daddy"). You try your best to keep Jesus' commandments (1 John 2:5). You exhibit love for God over wordly things (1 John 2:15). You have a love for all other Christians (1 John 3:14). You don't just say you love others, you actually do something (1 John 3:18-19). These are just some of the signs that the Bible tells us that our faith is real.

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I do all of those things...sometimes. I don't see how anyone can honestly say they do all of them all of the time. So the question remains, how do I know whether I'm in the super secret club?

It seems a lot simpler just to admit I have work to do.

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You think the "simpler" position is: "I have a lot of work to do to be saved. Don't know if it will be enough, but I sure hope so"?

Wow. To me, that kind of faith is absolutely crazy-making when you consider the repercussions. It's not a matter of life or death, but heaven or hell for eternity. What if I die before failing to take a lustful thought captive? What if I get unjustifiably angry before suffering a widow-maker heart attack, and didn't have a chance to confess or perform a sacrament? Or perhaps, what if I simply didn't engage in enough sacraments and God deems me unworthy?

There is absolutely nothing simple, or biblical, about that position. It also demonstrates misplaced motives and an incredible misunderstanding about works. If we are performing works because we are hoping and praying that it will be enough to get us into Heaven, then we are doing it for all the wrong reasons. Works should be an outcropping of our salvation - our faith and trust in Christ, love for our fellow man, and our desire to save the lost. If we are merely going through the motions in the hope it will be enough to save us, that is not what God had in mind.

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If I get angry, I'll ask forgiveness and resolve to confess it as soon as I can. There's no particular number of times to receive the sacrament that is "enough" or "not enough."

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You can't if you are not here to do so, which was the point of the examples I used.

The idea that a loving God is going to condemn a Christian to an eternity in hell simply because, despite having faith in him, the individual didn't immediately repent after getting angry not only makes no logical sense, but is also anti-biblical.

And it's also got to be crazy-making. I guess you just better hope you did enough to satisfy God's wrath against you before you die because if you screw up, there'll be hell to pay.

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Understand that if you have true contrition, being prevented from confessing won't keep you from being forgiven. This is why we pray for true contrition as part of the rosary (or in whatever way a person chooses to pray). Some fear is appropriate, but we trust God to accomplish our salvation (Philippians 2:12-13).

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So the Christian who hasn't had enough time to process his anger and therefore isn't truly contrite who dies before he has true contrition goes to hell in your book?

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"But I tell you that any man who is angry with his brother must answer for it before the court of justice, and any man who says Raca to his brother must answer for it before the Council; and any man who says to his brother, Thou fool, must answer for it in hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I don't see any exception for Christians. On the contrary, Jesus is speaking here specifically to his followers. Lust and anger are reflections of what's in the heart.

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Look at what else Jesus said: when asked what it takes to have eternal life, Jesus answered "obey the commandments" perfectly. He also said that if your eye causes you to sin, it's better for you to gouge it out because it's better to enter heaven with one eye than to burn in hell.

Do these mean that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law and by our ability to avoid sinning? Should we be gouging out our eyes? No, Jesus said these things before the cross. It was to get people under the old covenant to repent and see their desperate need for a savior, which he had yet to fulfill on the cross and by his future resurrection. The verse you referenced is one of those times. Now that Jesus' work is finished, these verses do not apply today to those under the new covenant of grace through faith.

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Matthew 5:29 was likewise addressed to Jesus' followers. I don't think he spent his years of ministry preaching things that would become at best irrelevant and at worst misleading upon his death.

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Then have you gouged your eye out?

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No, that would be silly. Jesus is using a pattern of hyperbole in this speech. He isn't saying that we should gouge our eyes out, or that we should never sow or reap, or pray in public, or be placed under oath (Jesus himself prayed in public and was under oath when he testified to the high priest).

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He's clearly saying that sin from our eyes will send us to Hell, right? And that to have eternal life we must obey the Law perfectly. It means we're all screwed, doesn't it?

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He's saying that he's not here to abolish the law but to bring it to perfection (Matthew 5:17). Not only must we put aside the outward acts of sin, but also the sinfulness in our hearts. We're called to be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees, not less. Without God's grace this is impossible, but with his help we are saved.

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Indeed, we are called to be Holy.

And thankfully, there is this thing called grace when we fall short.

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"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

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... and is saying that obedience to the law is what saves us to eternal life, right?

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No, that's not enough. He's asking asking more, but he's promising that we can accomplish it...through his grace alone.

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Right, more, as in perfect obedience to the law. It's how Jesus answered what one must do to inherit eternal life. Nothing about grace or faith.

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He talked about faith and works all the time. This is my point--you can't take one verse out of context from all the rest.

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Right, but isn't that what you did with the verse that says calling someone a "fool" puts them in Hell fire?

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I don't think so. What context do you think I ignored?

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The same context that you aren't ignoring with the rich young ruler, seemingly. Are you saying that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law, with God's help to obey them, rather than by grace through faith?

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

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... and is saying that obedience to the law is what saves us to eternal life, right?

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No, that's not enough. He's asking more...but he's promising that we can accomplish it, through his grace alone.

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God never promises that we can attain perfection while we are in our earthly bodies. In fact, he says just the opposite - we are incapable of perfection, which is why grace is necessary on a daily basis. "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 Jn. 1:8.

Salvation through grace is simply not compatible with salvation by works. Otherwise, it would not be grace.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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"Be ye perfect" is an exhortation. He knows very well that none of us are. Jesus is calling us to the spirit of the law, the law written on our hearts, not just the letter and the outward form.

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... and is saying that obedience to the law is what saves us to eternal life, right?

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No, that's not enough. He's asking asking more, but he's promising that we can accomplish it...through his grace alone.

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Right, more, as in perfect obedience to the law. It's how Jesus answered what one must do to inherit eternal life. Nothing about grace or faith.

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He talked about faith and works all the time. This is my point--you can't take one verse out of context from all the rest.

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Right, but isn't that what you did with the verse that says calling someone a "fool" puts them in Hell fire?

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I don't think so. What context do you think I ignored?

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The same context that you aren't ignoring with the rich young ruler, seemingly. Are you saying that salvation is by perfect obedience to the Law, with God's help to obey them, rather than by grace through faith?

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No. We all fall short, and as Mothra says, God is there with his grace to forgive us. But we have to keep repenting and seeking him if we want to finish the race. Otherwise we will fail, as stated many times in Scripture.