LA Burning to the ground

18,070 Views | 395 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by TrojanMoondoggie
BearFan33
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Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Porteroso said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

The 2025 "mostly peaceful protests" video from another Didn't Earn It hire ...


Amazing how stupid one can be to get hired if one's a blek.

The guy is likely saying what his earpiece told him to say. Give the guy a break, he's not on the ground talking to firefighters. To take a simple mistake and assign race to blame.... is pretty close to racist. But thats your M-O. You talk trash about DEI so much you really don't think any black is qualified to do anything. Not even read a teleprompter on the news.
Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It.
The bolded part is insulting and morally wrong. I don't support DEI because I believe its racist and counterproductive. But I know plenty of minorities that have reached their position completely on merit and do an excellent job.
Name 10. You moved the goalposts. I did not say minorities I said bleks. Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires. (we know you cannot and will disappear, but it proves a point by showing you're full of crap).
I'm not going to name 10 people that I know and respect on an anonymous message board to prove that I'm not "full of crap." That's crazy.
Harrison Bergeron
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BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Porteroso said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

The 2025 "mostly peaceful protests" video from another Didn't Earn It hire ...


Amazing how stupid one can be to get hired if one's a blek.

The guy is likely saying what his earpiece told him to say. Give the guy a break, he's not on the ground talking to firefighters. To take a simple mistake and assign race to blame.... is pretty close to racist. But thats your M-O. You talk trash about DEI so much you really don't think any black is qualified to do anything. Not even read a teleprompter on the news.
Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It.
The bolded part is insulting and morally wrong. I don't support DEI because I believe its racist and counterproductive. But I know plenty of minorities that have reached their position completely on merit and do an excellent job.
Name 10. You moved the goalposts. I did not say minorities I said bleks. Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires. (we know you cannot and will disappear, but it proves a point by showing you're full of crap).
I'm not going to name 10 people that I know and respect on an anonymous message board to prove that I'm not "full of crap." That's crazy.
Exactly. I do appreciate you proving my point however.
BearFan33
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Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Porteroso said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

The 2025 "mostly peaceful protests" video from another Didn't Earn It hire ...


Amazing how stupid one can be to get hired if one's a blek.

The guy is likely saying what his earpiece told him to say. Give the guy a break, he's not on the ground talking to firefighters. To take a simple mistake and assign race to blame.... is pretty close to racist. But thats your M-O. You talk trash about DEI so much you really don't think any black is qualified to do anything. Not even read a teleprompter on the news.
Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It.
The bolded part is insulting and morally wrong. I don't support DEI because I believe its racist and counterproductive. But I know plenty of minorities that have reached their position completely on merit and do an excellent job.
Name 10. You moved the goalposts. I did not say minorities I said bleks. Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires. (we know you cannot and will disappear, but it proves a point by showing you're full of crap).
I'm not going to name 10 people that I know and respect on an anonymous message board to prove that I'm not "full of crap." That's crazy.
Exactly. I do appreciate you proving my point however.
If your point is you're racist and crazy then I agree.
Harrison Bergeron
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BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Porteroso said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

The 2025 "mostly peaceful protests" video from another Didn't Earn It hire ...


Amazing how stupid one can be to get hired if one's a blek.

The guy is likely saying what his earpiece told him to say. Give the guy a break, he's not on the ground talking to firefighters. To take a simple mistake and assign race to blame.... is pretty close to racist. But thats your M-O. You talk trash about DEI so much you really don't think any black is qualified to do anything. Not even read a teleprompter on the news.
Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It.
The bolded part is insulting and morally wrong. I don't support DEI because I believe its racist and counterproductive. But I know plenty of minorities that have reached their position completely on merit and do an excellent job.
Name 10. You moved the goalposts. I did not say minorities I said bleks. Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires. (we know you cannot and will disappear, but it proves a point by showing you're full of crap).
I'm not going to name 10 people that I know and respect on an anonymous message board to prove that I'm not "full of crap." That's crazy.
Exactly. I do appreciate you proving my point however.
If your point is you're racist and crazy then I agree.
Incorrect. You're just an idiot that cannot back up your moronic claims.

Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires.

The fact that you cannot just underscores your racism and your belief that bleks can only achieve with lower standards and racist policies.
BearFan33
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Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Porteroso said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

The 2025 "mostly peaceful protests" video from another Didn't Earn It hire ...


Amazing how stupid one can be to get hired if one's a blek.

The guy is likely saying what his earpiece told him to say. Give the guy a break, he's not on the ground talking to firefighters. To take a simple mistake and assign race to blame.... is pretty close to racist. But thats your M-O. You talk trash about DEI so much you really don't think any black is qualified to do anything. Not even read a teleprompter on the news.
Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It.
The bolded part is insulting and morally wrong. I don't support DEI because I believe its racist and counterproductive. But I know plenty of minorities that have reached their position completely on merit and do an excellent job.
Name 10. You moved the goalposts. I did not say minorities I said bleks. Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires. (we know you cannot and will disappear, but it proves a point by showing you're full of crap).
I'm not going to name 10 people that I know and respect on an anonymous message board to prove that I'm not "full of crap." That's crazy.
Exactly. I do appreciate you proving my point however.
If your point is you're racist and crazy then I agree.
Incorrect. You're just an idiot that cannot back up your moronic claims.

Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires.

The fact that you cannot just underscores your racism and your belief that bleks can only achieve with lower standards and racist policies.
There is a difference between cannot and won't which I guess is lost on you.

I'll pray for you.
TinFoilHatPreacherBear
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Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Porteroso said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

The 2025 "mostly peaceful protests" video from another Didn't Earn It hire ...


Amazing how stupid one can be to get hired if one's a blek.

The guy is likely saying what his earpiece told him to say. Give the guy a break, he's not on the ground talking to firefighters. To take a simple mistake and assign race to blame.... is pretty close to racist. But thats your M-O. You talk trash about DEI so much you really don't think any black is qualified to do anything. Not even read a teleprompter on the news.
Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It.
The bolded part is insulting and morally wrong. I don't support DEI because I believe its racist and counterproductive. But I know plenty of minorities that have reached their position completely on merit and do an excellent job.
Name 10. You moved the goalposts. I did not say minorities I said bleks. Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires. (we know you cannot and will disappear, but it proves a point by showing you're full of crap).
I'm not going to name 10 people that I know and respect on an anonymous message board to prove that I'm not "full of crap." That's crazy.
Exactly. I do appreciate you proving my point however.
If your point is you're racist and crazy then I agree.
Incorrect. You're just an idiot that cannot back up your moronic claims.

Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires.

The fact that you cannot just underscores your racism and your belief that bleks can only achieve with lower standards and racist policies.


I've seen a lot of dumb posts on this board, but Harry Berg's racism against the entirety of the black population ranks towards the top. Just really bad and ill informed.

Yes DEI is terrible, it incentivizes poor hiring, which hurts fellow employees, and it can discriminate against the more qualified in favor of lesser qualified.

But unless you only work in the backwoods of whitey town, pretty sure most of us have worked with distinguished and qualified blacks (not bleks). It's just stupid and wrong of Harry to say that next to none are qualified. My life experience proves that false. I have gladly worked with many.
GrowlTowel
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1. Michael Jordan
2. David Robinson
3. Emmitt Smith
4. Walter Payton
5. Willie Mays
6. Morgan Freeman
7. Tiger Woods
8. Nat King Cole
9. Arthur Ashe
10. Apollo Creed
william
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GrowlTowel said:

1. Michael Jordan
2. David Robinson
3. Emmitt Smith
4. Walter Payton
5. Willie Mays
6. Morgan Freeman
7. Tiger Woods
8. Nat King Cole
9. Arthur Ashe
10. Apollo Creed
... glaring omission:



- KKM
dale 2028
Wangchung
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GrowlTowel said:

1. Michael Jordan
2. David Robinson
3. Emmitt Smith
4. Walter Payton
5. Willie Mays
6. Morgan Freeman
7. Tiger Woods
8. Nat King Cole
9. Arthur Ashe
10. Apollo Creed

Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?

Harrison Bergeron
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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Porteroso said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

The 2025 "mostly peaceful protests" video from another Didn't Earn It hire ...


Amazing how stupid one can be to get hired if one's a blek.

The guy is likely saying what his earpiece told him to say. Give the guy a break, he's not on the ground talking to firefighters. To take a simple mistake and assign race to blame.... is pretty close to racist. But thats your M-O. You talk trash about DEI so much you really don't think any black is qualified to do anything. Not even read a teleprompter on the news.
Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It.
The bolded part is insulting and morally wrong. I don't support DEI because I believe its racist and counterproductive. But I know plenty of minorities that have reached their position completely on merit and do an excellent job.
Name 10. You moved the goalposts. I did not say minorities I said bleks. Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires. (we know you cannot and will disappear, but it proves a point by showing you're full of crap).
I'm not going to name 10 people that I know and respect on an anonymous message board to prove that I'm not "full of crap." That's crazy.
Exactly. I do appreciate you proving my point however.
If your point is you're racist and crazy then I agree.
Incorrect. You're just an idiot that cannot back up your moronic claims.

Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires.

The fact that you cannot just underscores your racism and your belief that bleks can only achieve with lower standards and racist policies.


I've seen a lot of dumb posts on this board, but Harry Berg's racism against the entirety of the black population ranks towards the top. Just really bad and ill informed.

Yes DEI is terrible, it incentivizes poor hiring, which hurts fellow employees, and it can discriminate against the more qualified in favor of lesser qualified.

But unless you only work in the backwoods of whitey town, pretty sure most of us have worked with distinguished and qualified blacks (not bleks). It's just stupid and wrong of Harry to say that next to none are qualified. My life experience proves that false. I have gladly worked with many.
Name 10.
Wangchung
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Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

BearFan33 said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Porteroso said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

The 2025 "mostly peaceful protests" video from another Didn't Earn It hire ...


Amazing how stupid one can be to get hired if one's a blek.

The guy is likely saying what his earpiece told him to say. Give the guy a break, he's not on the ground talking to firefighters. To take a simple mistake and assign race to blame.... is pretty close to racist. But thats your M-O. You talk trash about DEI so much you really don't think any black is qualified to do anything. Not even read a teleprompter on the news.
Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It.
The bolded part is insulting and morally wrong. I don't support DEI because I believe its racist and counterproductive. But I know plenty of minorities that have reached their position completely on merit and do an excellent job.
Name 10. You moved the goalposts. I did not say minorities I said bleks. Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires. (we know you cannot and will disappear, but it proves a point by showing you're full of crap).
I'm not going to name 10 people that I know and respect on an anonymous message board to prove that I'm not "full of crap." That's crazy.
Exactly. I do appreciate you proving my point however.
If your point is you're racist and crazy then I agree.
Incorrect. You're just an idiot that cannot back up your moronic claims.

Name 10 bleks that earned their position and were not Didn't Earn It hires.

The fact that you cannot just underscores your racism and your belief that bleks can only achieve with lower standards and racist policies.
I have personally hired more than 10 black people for positions they were qualified for and at this point it should be obvious I am no fan of DEI or pretty much ANY leftist Marxist race theory.
Our vibrations were getting nasty. But why? I was puzzled, frustrated... Had we deteriorated to the level of dumb beasts?

GruntTuff
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This idiot Harrison whatever should be banned. Before I discuss this jerk who is, I hope, an Aggie and not a Bear, I want to point out one little fact, in case facts matter.

The fact that fire hydrants often ran out, or short, of water to fight this fire has ZERO to do with any decision to or not to build new lakes, pipelines, etc. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. What did it have to do with? If some of you would try to get information from somewhere other than Fox or NewsMax or some guy living in his grandmother's basement posting crap on the internet, you would easily learn that it had to do with very old infrastructure that at one time was adequate but not now with houses being built high in the hills and when danged near all of them are on fire at the same time. The water tanks were full and performed as intended. Yes, we can, in hindsight argue about why the system was not upgraded, just like if something similar happened in Dallas or Atlanta or Nashville. Sadly, American infrastructure is outdated and needs to be address. But this had ZERO to do with lakes or pipelines. If you say it did, you either are misinformed or you just like to lie.

And another: When Texas froze, pipes burst and almost 200 people died four years ago in a cold weather event, who was governor? Was it some woke Democrat? Why did Governor Useless not anticipate that event and have it taken care of in advance.

And another: Yes, the mayor of LA was out of the country when the fires began. What did Texas Senator Ted Cruz do during the big freeze? AFTER the tragic, unprepared for event began, he hopped on a jet and sat on a sunny beach in Mexico while Texans froze to death. Explain that one. If Cruz had been a Democrat would you forgive him of his malfeasance?

Harrison Bergeron said:

"Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It."

I suggest that Mr. Racist ask Aranda, Drew and Collen if they can gather together their teams in one large room so Mr. Racist can make the above quoted statement in their presence.

He would not have the stones to do that, but it's easy to spout vile racist garbage behind the cozy protection of a computer screen.

Surely this idiot is not a Baylor graduate.

GruntTuff
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.....and when he talks in front of the assembled teams, he needs to be sure to pronounce the word "blacks" in the racist and condescending manner in which he writes it....."bleks".

Redbrickbear
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GruntTuff said:



And another: When Texas froze, pipes burst and almost 200 people died four years ago in a cold weather event, who was governor? Was it some woke Democrat? Why did Governor Useless not anticipate…




The difference is that California has been having wildfires since the end of the last Ice Age

It's something they should be prepared for and a priority.

It's a yearly event

I would be defending Cal leaders if they were hit with a multi decades record ice storm in Southern California (not something a reasonable person would prioritize in So.Cal)

While Texas (one of the hottest places in the Continental US) …had a once in several decades ice storm and has also had 6 million people move in over the past 10 years…straining the grid

And most power outages come from downed power lines.

0.5 inches of ice is basically adding 500lbs to a power line.

At a certain point enough ice and the line will fall no matter how prepared you are.

Wisconsin has a priority to get its cities ready for ice storms….while Texas with hot-humid cities that almost never see cold like Beaumont, Corpus Christi, and San Antonio does not

(And I'm not defending Texas leadership…the State also needs infrastructure updates across the board)
ScottS
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I agree with RedBrick. California should have been prepared for this.
GruntTuff
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No, the difference is that Texas refused and refuses to join with neighboring states to share power when needed. Ask someone who lives in Longview or Marshall what happened in the freeze. They did NOT lose power because they are not part of ERCOT.

California and all other western states have worked very hard to prepare for fire events. People have stupidly moved into areas that are fire prone all over the west, even in Republican states like Idaho, Montana, etc. Why? For the same reason most dumb political decisions are made....because some business guy or lobby puts money in their pockets so they can build more homes and make more money.

In case you haven't noticed, horrible fires happen a lot more often than they did in the past. It's getting hotter and dryer. I believe Los Angeles has had less than a quarter inch of rain in the past 6-8 months.

Much of the American west should never have been inhabited by large number of humans. If you think city, county, state and federal governments don't do their best to anticipate and prepare then you haven't given this issue much thought. They all have limited resources. This fire in LA came at the end of a terrible dry period with 100 mile an hour winds. 100 year events are happening more and more often.

I happen to live in a fire prone area in the west and this issue is high on the minds of people out here. Also, did you notice that there was a terrible fire in the Texas Panhandle last year? Why did that fire happen and why did it get out of control.
Jacques Strap
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william
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dale 2028
Jacques Strap
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ScottS
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I'm hearing Billy Crystal's home has burned.

Also that CA had record snowfall but Newscum (and other officials) didn't collect it and it all went into the Pacific.
Harrison Bergeron
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GruntTuff said:

This idiot Harrison whatever should be banned. Before I discuss this jerk who is, I hope, an Aggie and not a Bear, I want to point out one little fact, in case facts matter.

The fact that fire hydrants often ran out, or short, of water to fight this fire has ZERO to do with any decision to or not to build new lakes, pipelines, etc. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. What did it have to do with? If some of you would try to get information from somewhere other than Fox or NewsMax or some guy living in his grandmother's basement posting crap on the internet, you would easily learn that it had to do with very old infrastructure that at one time was adequate but not now with houses being built high in the hills and when danged near all of them are on fire at the same time. The water tanks were full and performed as intended. Yes, we can, in hindsight argue about why the system was not upgraded, just like if something similar happened in Dallas or Atlanta or Nashville. Sadly, American infrastructure is outdated and needs to be address. But this had ZERO to do with lakes or pipelines. If you say it did, you either are misinformed or you just like to lie.

And another: When Texas froze, pipes burst and almost 200 people died four years ago in a cold weather event, who was governor? Was it some woke Democrat? Why did Governor Useless not anticipate that event and have it taken care of in advance.

And another: Yes, the mayor of LA was out of the country when the fires began. What did Texas Senator Ted Cruz do during the big freeze? AFTER the tragic, unprepared for event began, he hopped on a jet and sat on a sunny beach in Mexico while Texans froze to death. Explain that one. If Cruz had been a Democrat would you forgive him of his malfeasance?

Harrison Bergeron said:

"Hiring morons because they're blek is the definition of racism. California is burning because it hired token bleks and dykes. You can't name 10 bleks that would have their jobs if it was not for Didn't Earn It."

I suggest that Mr. Racist ask Aranda, Drew and Collen if they can gather together their teams in one large room so Mr. Racist can make the above quoted statement in their presence.

He would not have the stones to do that, but it's easy to spout vile racist garbage behind the cozy protection of a computer screen.

Surely this idiot is not a Baylor graduate.




So you cannot name 10?

All your beta hysteria cannot hide the fact that you cannot name 10.
BluesBear
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Eaton Fire getting out of control. Close friend lives about 15 miles East of that area - just texted me (they are heading to AZ to stay with friends of ours) and said additional evacuation notices going out. He is hearing grumblings of people stating in so many words " when will someone burn down Gavin's home".....Pretty sick if it's true about arsonists starting these...
Redbrickbear
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Had to do it…









Oldbear83
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It's Los Angeles, for crying out loud, and it's near-impossible to imagine them being worse in their response.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Redbrickbear
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GruntTuff said:

I believe Los Angeles has had less than a quarter inch of rain in the past 6-8 months.

Much of the American west should never have been inhabited by large number of humans. If you think city, county, state and federal governments don't do their best to anticipate and prepare then you haven't given this issue much thought. They all have limited resources. This fire in LA came at the end of a terrible dry period with 100 mile an hour winds. 100 year events are happening more and more often.

I happen to live in a fire prone area in the west and this issue is high on the minds of people out here. Also, did you notice that there was a terrible fire in the Texas Panhandle last year? Why did that fire happen and why did it get out of control.


Luckily we have the tech to solve the problem

If California politicians would just build it



GruntTuff
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The question of whether to build desalination plants or more reservoirs has zero to do with the LIE Trump and others are citing about the reason fire hydrants had troubles.

ZERO.

If you supposed Baylor grads can't understand that I can't help you.

Trump lied. Cruz abandoned Texas in its moment of need.

Harrison is a flat out racist who would soil himself if he stood in front of Baylor's athletes and spewed his insipid racist vitriol.

This entire thread is embarrassing.
GruntTuff
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Actually, I feel sorry for Harrison that he didn't live in Mississippi in the 1850's so he could have owned slaves.
tcbear
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Grunt, you wholly fail to address the fatal flaw in the design of the LAFD trunklines that would not allow sufficient water pressure uphill in Pacific Palisades. Even with water in the LAFD reservoirs there still was not water available to fight the fires.
Harrison Bergeron
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GruntTuff said:

Actually, I feel sorry for Harrison that he didn't live in Mississippi in the 1850's so he could have owned slaves.


Still cannot come up with 10, eh?

Specifics always shut you nuts up.
Oldbear83
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Go back to LA, Newsome.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
GruntTuff
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tcbear said:

Grunt, you wholly fail to address the fatal flaw in the design of the LAFD trunklines that would not allow sufficient water pressure uphill in Pacific Palisades. Even with water in the LAFD reservoirs there still was not water available to fight the fires.


I am not arguing that the system was not designed or updated as it should have been. My guess is the same can be said of dozens or hundreds or thousands of similar systems in other cities around the US.

That's not the point.

The point is that Trump and his minions are claiming that the problem was lack of pipelines from Northern California to the south, lack of reservoirs or desalination plants

Those things had zero to do with the issue.

Why is that so hard to understand?

GruntTuff
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Harrison Bergeron said:

GruntTuff said:

Actually, I feel sorry for Harrison that he didn't live in Mississippi in the 1850's so he could have owned slaves.


Still cannot come up with 10, eh?

Specifics always shut you nuts up.


I'm not going to waste another breath of my life on a racist pig like you.

Everybody reading this now knows what you are about. A blatant racist pig.


GruntTuff
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Oldbear83 said:

Go back to LA, Newsome.


I'm 75 years old and lived 65 of those in Texas. 50 years in the oil business.

What I cannot stand is blatant liars.

By the way, how do you feel about Cruz and his Mexico vacation?
GruntTuff
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At least you didn't call me Newscum like your fearless leader.
Oldbear83
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GruntTuff said:

Oldbear83 said:

Go back to LA, Newsome.


I'm 75 years old and lived 65 of those in Texas. 50 years in the oil business.

What I cannot stand is blatant liars.

By the way, how do you feel about Cruz and his Mexico vacation?
So your reaction to what you consider someone lying, is to throw out one of your own.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
 
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