4th and Inches said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Lmao. Came Across some posts about how satan was at Fatima ostensibly or that satan created our lady of Guadalupe. What a world view wow

Was the Shroud of Turin created by satan?

I bet there were some single digit % of people fleeing Egypt that claimed satan parted the Red Sea

And there are people that claim weve not set foot on the moon and that artemis etc won't actually go to the moon

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Satan created Islam, why not infect the catholic church with false teachings as well?

We are seeing the infection in multiple protestant denominations as well. Any time there is a comprimise to the scripture, it is by the king of this world and his influence.

Shroud of Turin is the real deal. Jesus was real, Jesus really died on the cross as proven by the blood and water from tbe spear(ask any MD to explain what happens in the body cavity when we die), no way the Romans would have lost the body and the soldiers would have been punished, no way the Jews wanted the body removed from that tomb as they wanted to stifle the gospel of the coming of the Messiah, the apostles had all fled and would not have been able to get past the roman guards, the stone was rolled away for the witnesses, Jesus didnt walk out like Lazarus. He departed the only way the son of God

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The Gospels tell us that Jesus was wrapped in "strips" of linen cloth, and a separate cloth for his head - NOT a single cloth like the Shroud. Scripture does not support the Shroud being authentic. Plus, all the "scientific" evidence is problematic, and is at best inconclusive. Christians should not assume it is real. There is, after all, a reason that God did not give us a physical description of Jesus anywhere in Scripture. It would tempt Christians to worship the image, rather than the real, living Jesus. And it would also give Satan an opportunity to create an impostor that looks like the image, and thus many people who have totally bought into the shroud being real might be deceived.

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there is a difference in text description between john and the others describing the wrappings.

For me, it doesnt matter. It doesnt effect my faith and I dont worship artifacts/relics. If it is, it is. If its not, it isnt.

Either way, Jesus was still real, he still died, and he still rose again and is alive eternally.

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There is a difference between the description of the cloth Jesus was wrapped in when he was first taken from the cross (wrapped in a single linen cloth), and after his empty tomb was discovered (strips, or multiple cloths, including a separate one for his head). It is likely that Jesus' body was taken wrapped in a single cloth, and then his body was washed and re-wrapped with multiple cloths before burial.

When you think about it, if it was a single cloth, you would think "wrapping" Jesus' body in it would not leave such a clean outline, but rather the image would be completely distorted from all the folds in the cloth - especially since moving his body around from here to there would smear the blood and contact points with the cloth. The image on the Shroud, rather, is of a cloth that was gently draped over a still body that isn't being moved around. And even then, a draped cloth over a 3-dimensional object like a body would leave an image that would be splayed out and widened when the cloth is stretched flat, rather than a photographic image like the Shroud of Turin.

It's good that it doesn't affect your faith, because it shouldn't. But for many others, it might.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Folks, see what happens when someone MUST believe their church can NOT err? They are forced to defend the completely indefensible.

1) They refuse to say that "building a church in Mary's honor" and the command to "spread world-wide devotion to MARY'S "Immaculate Heart" for the salvation of souls" did not come from God.

2) They actually feel it is defensible for a Christian to utter these words:

• "She (MARY) is the propitiation of the whole world."
• "She taketh away sin."
• "She is the salvation of my soul."
• "She is the acceptable sacrifice."

Folks, WHO is that supposed to be describing?

If you don't see the (HUGE) problem with this, then you are not a Christian. It's really that simple.
And if you are a Christian who DOES know it's wrong and evil, but are too cowardly to at least affirm that, then something is really, really wrong.

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What do you think Doc means when he says those titles are derivative and typological?

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Folks, see what happens when someone MUST believe their church can NOT err? They are forced to defend the completely indefensible.

1) They refuse to say that "building a church in Mary's honor" and the command to "spread world-wide devotion to MARY'S "Immaculate Heart" for the salvation of souls" did not come from God.

2) They actually feel it is defensible for a Christian to utter these words:

• "She (MARY) is the propitiation of the whole world."
• "She taketh away sin."
• "She is the salvation of my soul."
• "She is the acceptable sacrifice."

Folks, WHO is that supposed to be describing?

If you don't see the (HUGE) problem with this, then you are not a Christian. It's really that simple.
And if you are a Christian who DOES know it's wrong and evil, but are too cowardly to at least affirm that, then something is really, really wrong.

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What do you think Doc means when he says those titles are derivative and typological?

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What I think, is "can you guys reeeaally be this dense?"

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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• "She (MARY) is the propitiation of the whole world."
• "She taketh away sin."
• "She is the salvation of my soul."
• "She is the acceptable sacrifice."

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In this Resurrection season, on this Resurrection weekend, tomorrow being Good Friday -

do you guys actually DARE to praise Jesus for all he's done for us with the same lips that utters these words or offers a defense for them?

My GOD.

3pm Approaches.

Fre3dombear said:

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3pm Approaches.

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tetelestai!

4th and Inches said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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3pm Approaches.

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tetelestai!

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I'm not looking for a consensus but, I think this one just fell on us like a ton of bricks.

Sunday's coming

Fre3dombear said:

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3pm Approaches.

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There was an eclipse recorded in China on the same day that Jesus was crucified, but was found to be unexpected, and prolonged, and somehow reversed. A usual eclipse is a few minutes long, but this one was for 3 hours, as recorded in the Gospels, and the darkness was extreme, that the writer made some bold statements.

"The sin of all the people is on one man, and pardon is proclaimed to all under heaven".

In Gwi Hai, someone wrote:

"Man from heaven dies".

Also, three days later they saw a rainbow halo around the sun, during the days of emperor Gwung Wu, and recorded it in their history.

-Ancient Chinese Historical records between 31-33AD

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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3pm Approaches.

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There was an eclipse recorded in China on the same day that Jesus was crucified, but was found to be unexpected, and prolonged, and somehow reversed. A usual eclipse is a few minutes long, but this one was for 3 hours, as recorded in the Gospels, and the darkness was extreme, that the writer made some bold statements.

"The sin of all the people is on one man, and pardon is proclaimed to all under heaven".

In Gwi Hai, someone wrote:

"Man from heaven dies".

Also, three days later they saw a rainbow halo around the sun, during the days of emperor Gwung Wu, and recorded it in their history.

-Ancient Chinese Historical records between 31-33AD

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God has performed miracles for all to see if they choose to

Amazing liturgy tonight. To kneel before and venerate the cross. Thank you Jesus! I am not worthy.

"Oh Mary, sweet refuge of poor sinners, assist me with thy mercy... I give you my heart and soul."

"Oh immaculate and holy pure virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the World, thou are the joy of the saints, thou art the peacemaker between sinners and God, the salvation of the universe."

"We have confidence but in thee, O most faithful virgin, O great Mediatress of peace between men and God"

Guy discovers Catholicism pic.twitter.com/oVq3jz8ivd

— Anthony (@Catholicizm1) April 9, 2026

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

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Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

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All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

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All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

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Those are Roman Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. Very Latin Marian Devotion that we don't subscribe to.

In the Orthodox tradition, prayers are almost always communal or liturgical in structure...so individualized "heart and soul" consecration to anyone other than Christ would be seen as an outlier.

Doc Holliday said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

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Those are Roman Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. Very Latin Marian Devotion that we don't subscribe to.

In the Orthodox tradition, prayers are almost always communal or liturgical in structure...so individualized "heart and soul" consecration to anyone other than Christ would be seen as an outlier.

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My bad. Thanks

I overlooked "orthodox"

Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Still really interesting to see an Orthodox guy defend the heresy of Catholicism.

I guess you share a common enemy.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

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Those are Roman Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. Very Latin Marian Devotion that we don't subscribe to.

In the Orthodox tradition, prayers are almost always communal or liturgical in structure...so individualized "heart and soul" consecration to anyone other than Christ would be seen as an outlier.

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My bad. Thanks

I overlooked "orthodox"

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All good! There's some pretty big differences between RC and EO.

From our perspective, protestants are much closer to Roman Catholicism in many arenas. The Reformation wasn't a return to the early Church. I know people like to romanticize it like that, but its simply not true and its painfully obvious. It was a civil war within the Latin tradition. It was a shift in who has authority, rather than a shift in the theological framework itself. That's why its not really as close to Eastern Orthodoxy as many believe.

The whole "god's wrath poured out on the son" concept that Calvinists adhere to is actually taken from a similar medieval Roman Catholic view, but just doubled down on and more extreme. Eastern Orthodox never held views like that because they never went through a nominalist trap that the west went through.

Doc Holliday said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

---

Those are Roman Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. Very Latin Marian Devotion that we don't subscribe to.

In the Orthodox tradition, prayers are almost always communal or liturgical in structure...so individualized "heart and soul" consecration to anyone other than Christ would be seen as an outlier.

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MY GOD, folks. I gave you the Orthodox's Akathist Hymn, their liturgy which they consider to be infallible which does the exact same thing with Mary. Did you guys just let it go in one ear and out the other?:

"She (MARY) is the propitiation of the whole world."

"She taketh away sin."

"She is the salvation of my soul."

"She is the acceptable sacrifice."

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

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Umm, no they weren't good responses. There is absolutely no biblical basis for the belief that Mary was the most "sanctified by grace, most united to Christ, most glorified by God".

They "ask her to pray for them"..... by praying to her. That is, by ascribing to Mary the qualities of the divine - the omnipresence and omniscience to receive prayers from any number of people all over the world. Also very unbiblical, and pure idolatry. Praying is an intimate act of worship reserved for God alone.

Doc Holliday said:

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Mothra said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

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Still really interesting to see an Orthodox guy defend the heresy of Catholicism.

I guess you share a common enemy.

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I don't see any of you as an enemy.

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You need to see false teaching as the enemy.... but unfortunately you're trying to defend it, and ultimately join it.

Doc Holliday said:

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Mothra said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

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Still really interesting to see an Orthodox guy defend the heresy of Catholicism.

I guess you share a common enemy.

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I don't see any of you as an enemy.

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You see Evangelism as the enemy, which is why you regularly mischaracterize and stereotype their beliefs, while defending the heresy of Catholicism.

As I said, it's quite interesting.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Mothra said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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historian said:

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So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Still really interesting to see an Orthodox guy defend the heresy of Catholicism.

I guess you share a common enemy.

---

I don't see any of you as an enemy.

---

You need to see false teaching as the enemy.... but unfortunately you're trying to defend it, and ultimately join it.

---

BINGO.

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

---

Umm, no they weren't good responses. There is absolutely no biblical basis for the belief that Mary was the most "sanctified by grace, most united to Christ, most glorified by God".

They "ask her to pray for them"..... by praying to her. That is, by ascribing to Mary the qualities of the divine - the omnipresence and omniscience to receive prayers from any number of people all over the world. Also very unbiblical, and pure idolatry. Praying is an intimate act of worship reserved for God alone.

---

good responses for understanding his views.

Why do you suppose I had a follow up question?

Have you always struggled with dialogue?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

---

Umm, no they weren't good responses. There is absolutely no biblical basis for the belief that Mary was the most "sanctified by grace, most united to Christ, most glorified by God".

They "ask her to pray for them"..... by praying to her. That is, by ascribing to Mary the qualities of the divine - the omnipresence and omniscience to receive prayers from any number of people all over the world. Also very unbiblical, and pure idolatry. Praying is an intimate act of worship reserved for God alone.

---

good responses for understanding his views.

Why do you suppose I had a follow up question?

Have you always struggled with dialogue?

---

Views that are false should never be called "good".

Have you always sacrificed God's truth on the altar of your "dialogue"?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

---

Umm, no they weren't good responses. There is absolutely no biblical basis for the belief that Mary was the most "sanctified by grace, most united to Christ, most glorified by God".

They "ask her to pray for them"..... by praying to her. That is, by ascribing to Mary the qualities of the divine - the omnipresence and omniscience to receive prayers from any number of people all over the world. Also very unbiblical, and pure idolatry. Praying is an intimate act of worship reserved for God alone.

---

good responses for understanding his views.

Why do you suppose I had a follow up question?

Have you always struggled with dialogue?

---

Views that are false should never be called "good".

Have you always sacrificed God's truth on the altar of your "dialogue"?

---

You're asking me another question when you haven't answered my second one.

One my time; why do you suppose I had a follow up question?

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. The same logic, applied consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

All good responses.

Can you address Tarp's post with the 3 prayers regarding Mary a couple of post above?

---

Umm, no they weren't good responses. There is absolutely no biblical basis for the belief that Mary was the most "sanctified by grace, most united to Christ, most glorified by God".

They "ask her to pray for them"..... by praying to her. That is, by ascribing to Mary the qualities of the divine - the omnipresence and omniscience to receive prayers from any number of people all over the world. Also very unbiblical, and pure idolatry. Praying is an intimate act of worship reserved for God alone.

---

good responses for understanding his views.

Why do you suppose I had a follow up question?

Have you always struggled with dialogue?

---

Views that are false should never be called "good".

Have you always sacrificed God's truth on the altar of your "dialogue"?

---

You're asking me another question when you haven't answered my second one.

One my time; why do you suppose I had a follow up question?

---

Am I supposed to answer "read my mind" questions?

If you want to tell us, then why not just tell us?

Is this the answer?: to offer the tepid response that you did.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

I don't know exactly what Mothra claimed, but my claim was that you're praying to someone to whom you're attributing the qualities of the divine. Human or not, that's idolatrous and unbiblical, and even anti-biblical because nowhere EVER in the Old or New Testaments do we have the people of God praying to the departed. Rather, we're only instructed to pray to God. It's an intimate act of worship.

We ask our living pastor, mother, or anyone else to intercede.... but do you ask them by praying to them?

Yes, you are engaging not only in pure eisegesis, but also drawing complete non sequiturs from those verses. It just doesn't follow that since God is God of the living, that we are to pray to people in heaven. The "cloud of witnesses" isn't literal. And even it were, still, it does not follow that we are to pray to them, or that they are even capable of receiving our prayers. The elders offering up prayers of the saints does NOT mean that those prayers were addressed TO THEM. The "communion of the saints" isn't even in the Bible, and even if you draw it as in inference, still, and again, it just does not follow that they are capable of receiving our prayers, or that God thinks it's okay to pray to them to begin with. Again- the practice and belief is NOWHERE in all of Scripture or the early church.

I just can't believe you're not able to see that your logic here is faulty, and that you are indeed reading into Scripture what you want to believe, rather than what's really there.

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

historian said:

---

So was Jesus speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic while on the cross? The book of Genesis was originally in Hebrew but Aramaic was more common at the time of Christ. One of His statements from the cross was Aramaic, as the gospels say so explicitly (when he quoted the Psalm).

Regardless, there is nothing in scripture that suggests the worship of Mary. She was still human and a sinner. Worshipping her would be idolatry which is expressly prohibited over and over again in the scriptures.

We can honor her as an honored woman chosen by God for a special purpose in much the same way we honor Moses, David, or Ruth. But that's as far as it goes.

---

Yeah nobody worships her. The eastern orthodox make the sign of the cross before any intercession lol

We can ask her to pray for us because the prayers of the righteous availeth much and those in Christ are alive. That same logic, rejected consistently, would forbid asking any Christian to pray on your behalf. And no serious Protestant believes that.

Who has been more glorified by God, more sanctified by grace, more united to Christ? If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, what shall we say of the prayers of the one whom the angel greeted as "full of grace," whom Elizabeth called "blessed among women," and whom the Holy Spirit overshadowed such that she bore God in the flesh?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him" (Luke 20:38). The saints are not annihilated at death. They are more alive than we are. They stand before the throne of the Lamb (Revelation 7), they cry out in intercession (Revelation 6:9-10), they are aware of what transpires on earth (Luke 15:7, 10; Hebrews 12:1).

---

Totally unsupported and unbiblical schlock, mischaracterizing verses that in no way support the practice you are defending.

There are no verses that suggest, much less state, praying to humans.

---

You claim asking Mary to pray for us is "praying to humans." But you ask living humans to pray for you constantly. The only way to reject Marian intercession on those grounds is to also reject asking your pastor, your mother, or anyone else to intercede. If your objection is that she's dead, that's the argument that was already answered: God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Luke 20:38), and the saints in Revelation 5:8 are explicitly depicted presenting the prayers of the faithful before God's throne. That's not eisegesis. That's the text.

On "no verses support praying to humans": Revelation 6:9-10 shows the martyrs under the altar crying out, aware of earthly events. Revelation 5:8 shows the elders offering up the prayers of the saints. Hebrews 12:1 places us surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. You need to actually exegete these passages, not wave them away.

Why does death sever the communion of saints for you when Scripture nowhere teaches that, and when the living Church has never believed it?

---

It's honestly incredible to me that you would compare praying to a dead person to asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Absurd.

---

They're starting with the belief they want, and then conjuring the "facts" and "logic" to support it. Sometimes, straight out of thin air. For example, the belief that Mary is the "most glorified, most sanctified, and most united to Christ" person ever. And the belief that in infants, water baptism "washes away original sin". Both of which were expressed here in this thread.